Can legal guardians determine whether visitation can be unsupervised

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi guys,

I have a situation that is a little different from what is usually seen on these boards, but it is Family Law related.

Short background (I can fill you in on details; there's a complex history):

2013 I had four kids at the time, D5, D4, S1, and S6weeks. CPS removed them from my and ubpdh's custody due to domestic violence in the home, and their belief that we were violating a no-contact order enforced by the courts.

2014 I gained back custody of D6 and D5, on the way to getting custody again of S2 and S1, and had given birth to D5months. CPS claimed new allegations had arisen and removed the kids again.

2015 I gave birth to my youngest son, who was never taken from me and is still in my custody.

2016 my sister and her husband got legal guardianship of my five oldest kids.

I have been on supervised visitation since CPS took the kids the second time. Long story, but basically visitation was not addressed when my sister got guardianship, and I have been told by my court appointed attorney that I will have to file a petition in court to get the supervised visitation last imposed by CPS lifted.

Now that I have everything in place that she said I would need, she will not return my calls. I have decided to consult with other family attorneys and see about hiring one myself. I don't have the finances to do so yet, but I can come up with that in a matter of months.

My sister (based, I believe, on her convenience) has decided that since she is their legal guardian, she has authority to decide if they can see me unsupervised. I have been working for this for years, and I would love to see my kids more than the one hour a week she manages to squeeze in for me (she supervises the visits). But, I am worried that even though CPS is not involved anymore, there could be repercussions. My sister is a very controlling person. I have a whole thread about that on PSI, and I worry that this might be used against me somehow sometime in the future- although I don't see how it could reflect badly on me and not her, but still.

Anyone here know anything about this? I am scouting out family attorneys now, since a lot of them do free consultations here in my area. I just won't be able to hire one until I get some more money saved. It cost me most of my savings to get into a rental of my own. I left ubpdh in the fall of 2017 because the abuse was ongoing, and it has taken me this long to get on my feet (I'm a server by profession; I depend on tips for income so my finances fluctuate).

Just throwing it out there if anyone has any experience in this type of situation. Thanks.

Redeemed

[livednlearned]

It's a good question, IAR. And it's good that you're scouting lawyers to help with this next step. How awful that CPS did not determine visitation and you are caught in this legal whirlpool now that the case is closed. Ugh.

My sister is a very controlling person. I have a whole thread about that on PSI, and I worry that this might be used against me somehow sometime in the future- although I don't see how it could reflect badly on me and not her, but still.

If she is receiving $4000 a month to foster your kids, I can understand why you are concerned about her offer to give you supervised visitation. I read your PSI post where you mention that she may be offering this as a way to stop you from trying to get things legally squared away, which would in all likelihood end her guardianship income. Is that reading the situation correctly?

You have good instincts, IAR. It sounds like you know that regardless of her offer, there are strings attached. She has both financial and psychological incentive to "rescue" the kids.

My experience with court actions is to document the ways in which I've been a stable, consistent, loving parent. You have your new apartment and are getting financially stabilized. What else do you think the court would want to see?

What part are you concerned might be used against you somehow in the future?

Trying to understand the moving parts  

[I Am Redeemed]

the last thing that was ordered was that I would have two hours a week of "therapeutic supervised visitation" through the local child advocacy center. That was five years ago. The advocacy center stopped providing the visitation a year and a half ago, since my case was closed with CPS.

We've been in limbo ever since. My sister has decided to just let me have my kids unsupervised, without going back to court. But I am afraid this gives her too much control over when, where and how, and if she decides to stop letting me have them, there is no court order to protect my rights to see them.


She has never stuck to what is "on paper", not that we've ever seen what was actually on paper. CPS gave us no copies of any documents backing up anything they claimed was court ordered. I only know what the judge said in court about visitation, and my sister didn't care about that. Even when the visitation was structured, she would schedule things such as swimming lessons and vacations that conflicted with my visitation, and I never got make up time. This was when I was still with ubpdh, and she just didn't care if I got my visitation because I was still with him.

[I Am Redeemed]

And yes, lnl, she doesn't want me to get custody back. She considers them her kids now. I bought the book Divorce Poison, and she has used many of the alienation tactics outlined in the book, even though this is a slightly different situation from divorce. I believe, in part, that she thinks that if I get to see my kids unsupervised that I will not pursue regaining custody.

I honestly can't pursue custody now, because I can't afford to have six kids full time as a single mom with a waitress job. But I will graduate with my bachelor's degree next July, and I will be going to graduate school after that. I have thought about eventually pursuing a split or joint custody arrangement, kind of the same as in a divorce.

My little ones don't really remember living with me, but D-almost twelve and D-almost eleven want to come back to me permanently, full time.

[GaGrl]

Haven't some parents in this board undergone a type of therapy called "reconciliation" counseling, designed to resolve last issues and enable parent/child to resume a relationship that has been disrupted? Might that be applicable in this situation?

I agree you need legal assistance here. You are going to need help navigating the relationship with your sister -- she has reasons to block your custody.

[livednlearned]

My sister has decided to just let me have my kids unsupervised, without going back to court. But I am afraid this gives her too much control over when, where and how, and if she decides to stop letting me have them, there is no court order to protect my rights to see them.

Maybe a question for a lawyer is, "Do I accept my sister's offer of unsupervised visitation for the short term of x number of weeks/months to show that there is a new status quo? And if so, how long do you recommend I do this?" Or, "Are there any downsides to accepting unsupervised visitation from my sister? If we work this out on our own, will court say, 'You both seem to have this worked out. Continue the way things are going."

In dialectical behavioral therapy they like to say that two seemingly opposite things can both be true at the same time.

She is abusive and controlling, and she is making an effort to stabilize things for the kids.

She is feeling burdened by the responsibility and she sees you making a safe life for yourself and the kids.

I found that kind of thing to be helpful when I was in constant opposition to my ex. It allowed me to detach from the dynamics and focus on how to be effective. Most of us are motivated by more than one thing, sometimes at the same time, including things that conflict  

[I Am Redeemed]

I agree those would be good questions to ask the lawyer. I want to find one who is also experienced in CPS cases, because in my opinion there were many things wrong with how CPS handles the case and I think those issues should be addressed when I pursue custody. I know that if I were to file for joint or full custody at some point, my sister will fight me and she will throw any and everything she can at me, including the CPS case, so I need to find a lawyer who is willing to go back and find the holes in the allegations against me. Because the bottom line is, I did not do what they said I did, and they did not do a professional job with their "investigation", they never had proof of their allegations, and they never had to show proof. In fact, all the "services" they ordered us to complete began to point to the fact that the allegations had no basis for substantiation, so personal opinion is that they fought so hard to keep me from getting custody back because they knew they were wrong. If they were right, then there would be no reason to leave S3 in my custody; yet they did. Nothing they did made sense, and the court went along with whatever they said. My lawyer provided the bare minimum in representation; many times she would talk to me for five minutes before court to find out what was going on, and then walk me down the path of least resistance to CPS, no matter how ridiculous their antics or how abusive their tactics.

[formflier]

It's odd to me that the CPS case is closed without a "final" determination of the kids.

I would verbally accept the unsupervised visitation to maximize time with your kids.  (basically be pragmatic)

While building relationships with them get things squared away with family attorneys.

An attorney that stops taking your calls is very odd.  Very.  Opens them up to bar complaints and a whole host of issues, even for pro bono work.

Very likely worth writing a letter demanding the case be finished up or transferred to a new pro bono attorney.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

There are lots of things about this case that are not right, trust me.

My best bet is to hire my own attorney, and not one that usually practices in the small town where the case is based. Family law attorneys that are based there try not to step on the toes of the CPS lawyers in one case, because they need to cooperate with them in others. There are also cases where an attorney in one court is a judge in another court, so they don't generally get aggressive with each other.