Is it emotional cheating?

[WitzEndWife]

I just got back from the week-long trip with my husband. Despite the fact that we were in the car together and glued to each other nonstop, it actually overall went well - except for one incident. I'm still processing this, so bear with me.

While my husband and I were on our way back to our hotel one evening after going out, a younger woman private messaged me on Instagram. She told me that my husband had been messaging her and she thought I should know about it. She sent screenshots. It appears that the messages were one-sided, but persistent over the course of several months about a year ago. Nothing explicit, but the first message asked her if she'd like to meet up for a bike ride (he's a cyclist). The next couple of messages were one or two words. Two were commenting on her clothes ("#momjeans" and "dat turtleneck"). The third message was him saying "whaddup capricious?" because apparently her profile said she was capricious. However, the fourth message, he said, "didn't realize you were in high school."

Of course, I immediately asked him who this person was and told him that she'd messaged me. He said his intentions were 100 percent platonic, that he hadn't had any illicit intent. From the messages, it's hard to tell. On the one hand, I could see them being platonic, but on the other hand, why was he so persistent, and why did he back off in such a weird way when he found out she was in high school? The clothing comments, he said, were him trying to be funny and making fun of her. Still, not knowing her, that's weird, right?

I've never had any reason to suspect him of being unfaithful, but this whole thing really shook me to my core. He said that there was no one else and that he was just trying to make friends. He told me that he always had "hot" female friends, and that he never was intimate with any of them - he just liked having attractive friends. While that's certainly true, that he's had attractive female friends long before I ever met him, it seems bizarre that he would think making new ones would be okay once he got married.

Maybe he's just trying to flirt to get attention. Either way, I feel betrayed and wary. He now says he won't attempt to meet up with any women unless I'm with him, but why does this not make me feel any better?

I told him if he wanted to go flirt and be with other women, he should do that, but to leave me and leave me out of it. I don't want to be dragged  along as his "old nag" in the stable, while he goes and looks for fresh new fillies. We've only been married for three years. I've got too much life left in me to deal with this.

How does a person even deal with this? It's not like I can know if he's talking to other women unless I snoop - which I'm not willing to do. And, if he is just talking and flirting, am I overreacting? I feel like it's embarrassing - especially how he's been super persistent with this one (I suspect he has been with others as well). I also feel like a husband shouldn't be reaching out to random women on the internet, even if it is just to make "friends."

[formflier]

And, if he is just talking and flirting, am I overreacting? I feel like it's embarrassing - especially how he's been super persistent with this one (I suspect he has been with others as well). I also feel like a husband shouldn't be reaching out to random women on the internet, even if it is just to make "friends."

What are the chances that the first time he did this...he "got caught"? 

It is absolutely possible that he did and he is 100% telling you the truth.  I'm not asking if it is possible...I'm asking if it is probable. 

Big question:  Is your husband a truthful person?  Do you trust him?

 

Best,

FF

[once removed]

i did a fair amount of this myself while i was in my relationship.

im not your husband, and so i can only speculate.

what i was doing was relatively innocent...no real intent to cheat. but i also kept it a bit hidden from my partner at the time. im sure some of it was mildly flirty at times, too.

i was looking for female connection outside of my relationship, and not going about it in the best way.

He said that there was no one else and that he was just trying to make friends. He told me that he always had "hot" female friends, and that he never was intimate with any of them - he just liked having attractive friends.

im reading into it from my own experience, but this probably says a lot, and it may well be very honest. i suspect your husband may get some of his self worth from having attractive female friends, and their attention. for some men, it really need not be more than that, but it can be a slippery slope.

it seems bizarre that he would think making new ones would be okay once he got married.

my partner was very jealous. (not to excuse myself or blame her) thats part of why i was secretive about these attempts to connect with other females. we fought about it. what was suggested to me (and i rejected at the time) is that when you get into a serious relationship, especially marriage, it is generally healthiest to have "couples friends" - that is, you make friends with other couples, as a couple. everything is on the up and up, everyone knows each other.

im wondering a few things: how emotionally connected do you feel to your husband? how invested do you feel he is in the relationship? do the two of you have mutual friends, or couples friends?

[WitzEndWife]

He has mentioned flirting online before, which I didn't like, but I was solid that he wasn't trying to strike up an emotional relationship with these women, or meet up with them. His social media is filled with attractive women. I am sure he's getting validation somehow from them.

We have had "couple" friends in the past, but through moving and his abrasive BPD outbursts, we have pretty much lost contact with them. He has a hard time keeping friends as it is, given his rudeness and boundary crossing. He says he is lonely because I'm at work all day and he has nobody to talk to. I totally understand this, but the way he is going about it is not okay with me.

I guess I used to be more compassionate and easier to talk to, but I've become so resentful, it's been difficult for me to have compassion for him when he's being so cruel and venomous toward me. I wish I could forget all of the devaluation, but it's hard and I'm too often caught off guard and put on the defensive.

However, my reaction to his constant devaluation is not an excuse for his behavior. It also completely grosses me out that he's 42 years old and hitting on high schoolers. I'm already dealing with self esteem issues myself, especially after gaining some weight, and this did not help. I feel sick and confused overall about it. And suspicious. It's a bad place to be in.

[formflier]

It also completely grosses me out that he's 42 years old and hitting on high schoolers. I'm already dealing with self esteem issues myself, especially after gaining some weight, and this did not help. I feel sick and confused overall about it. And suspicious. It's a bad place to be in.

Or people that appear to be high schoolers..or are close.

I assume you are close to his age as well?

I'm 49.  I'm not going to try to convince anyone here I can't appreciate a young gal that is "hot", but I would hope there is a distinction with what I find attractive.   The difference between a girl and a woman.  What on earth would I talk to a high schooler about in a flirting way?

WitzEndWife I realize this is fresh and I'm so sorry there "more" relationship stuff to work through.  You are on the conflicted board for a reason and will have to sort through how this impacts your "level of conflict", especially since it appears it is additional behavior he is ok with and you are not

Do I have that right?

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Yes, FF, it definitely adds to the conflicted part. He did say he wouldn't try to meet up with other women, or hit on them, but I will have no way of knowing whether he keeps that promise. It just adds another stone to the burden I'm already carrying, but it also adds weight to the decision to end things, so there's that.

[once removed]

He says he is lonely because I'm at work all day and he has nobody to talk to. I totally understand this, but the way he is going about it is not okay with me.

yeah. it sounds like this is a way to soothe loneliness. not the most constructive way.

I guess I used to be more compassionate and easier to talk to, but I've become so resentful, it's been difficult for me to have compassion for him when he's being so cruel and venomous toward me. I wish I could forget all of the devaluation, but it's hard and I'm too often caught off guard and put on the defensive.

this may be at the crux of things. it sounds like in the name of self protection, youve withdrawn emotionally from the relationship. its an understandable reaction. it can also be a destructive one. your partner, meanwhile, is prone to dysfunctional ways of trying to get you to reinvest emotionally, like lashing out at you, which, ironically, pushes you further away. or he looks for external validation (which on some level, also gets your attention).

so, how to break this cycle? how to bridge that gap.

I'm already dealing with self esteem issues myself, especially after gaining some weight, and this did not help. I feel sick and confused overall about it. And suspicious. It's a bad place to be in.

when a man looks for external validation it is rarely about physical disappointment with his partner. its more a dysfunctional way of meeting some need...whether it be ego, lack of emotional connection, soothing shame or rejection, etc.

its an escape. and to some extent, you are both escaping from each other, in different ways.

i guess what im trying to say here, is that on one level youre (understandably) taking it personally, and on another level, its fundamentally not okay with you what hes doing (and it shouldnt be, its destructive to your relationship). taking it personally is a trap. you fundamentally not being okay with whats going on is an opportunity to work to get on the same page, if possible.

He now says he won't attempt to meet up with any women unless I'm with him, but why does this not make me feel any better?

i would revisit this in particular, and the entire conversation, in a few separate conversations, in a time of calm.

i would primarily ask questions, and listen...non judgmentally. i would give him the space to talk about both why he does this, and what he feels is lacking in the marriage. i wouldnt say much in that initial conversation, mostly just listen. i would then say that i want to reflect on all of that, and id do so (itd be a good idea to bring it back to the board and get some feedback). in a day or two i would bring it up, and id take my turn, so to speak. SET could be very helpful here; i would validate that you understand where hes coming from, own that youve withdrawn on some level, and, without blame (i might use language like "theres been a lot of conflict" rather than "youve pushed me away") state why, in terms of how it makes you feel. in conclusion, summarize both of your positions, how you each see things, try to agree that there are areas you both can improve on. i wouldnt try to solve them yet, id take some more time to reflect and come back to it in a separate conversation.

that third conversation is, ideally, where id try to discuss solutions; ways to connect and improve things (the things youd like to see would also be good to discuss here). things youd each like to see happen. id also try to get on the same page with whats okay, whats not okay, whats clearly out of bounds...how you can be accountable and hold each other to it.

does that make sense?

[Notwendy]

I agree with Once Removed that this is some sort of self soothing/loneliness/validation thing.

It's also superficial, and may be a way to get validation without intimacy. As you know, an intimate relationship is more difficult and with BPD even more so.

I can understand how this bothers you. It would bother me too. I wouldn't call it cheating but IMHO, it's inappropriate for a married man his age, and also immature. However, this may also reflect an emotional immaturity on his part- he may feel more comfortable interacting with young women who would not expect a more mature level of interaction from him.

[formflier]

However, this may also reflect an emotional immaturity on his part- he may feel more comfortable interacting with young women who would not expect a more mature level of interaction from him.

Exactly what I was trying to express...he is more comfortable acting like a "boy" and be around "girls", than acting like a "man" and being mature with a "woman".

Best,

FF

[PeteWitsend]

...
How does a person even deal with this? It's not like I can know if he's talking to other women unless I snoop - which I'm not willing to do. And, if he is just talking and flirting, am I overreacting? I feel like it's embarrassing - especially how he's been super persistent with this one (I suspect he has been with others as well). I also feel like a husband shouldn't be reaching out to random women on the internet, even if it is just to make "friends."

Well, it sounds like you're not comfortable with him doing this, period. 

And FWIW, you have every right and should be suspicious of his actions here. 

I'm of the mindset that there's no such thing as "innocent flirting."  some would disagree...  I can imagine that there could be in certain situations, like a passing joke or comment to a stranger, that are purely innocent.  But going online and looking for people to flirt with is a lot different than that.

And it sounds like the entire purpose of his trolling IS to flirt... it's not like he just happened to be talking about baseball or something and one of the other people who commented was female.  he's seeking them out.

I think you need to decide what you're comfortable with, make that request of him, and live with that. And if he doesn't comply, then... well... that's up to you to decide how you'll handle thatz 

 I was very much a believer in equality when it comes to what's permitted in a marriage, and if a spouse can go online and flirt with potential partners, the other spouse can too.

my uBPDX cleaned up her FB profile after I brought this up.  If she was going to complain about every girl or woman who liked my facebook posts, I was going to do the same about every guy who liked hers.

 Her pathological fears of me cheating/abandoning her lead to her eventually deleting her FB profile and asking me to do the same. 

[PeteWitsend]

on a related note, social media - especially awful facebook - seems tailor made for people with BPD.

Since all their interactions are competitive, ranking themselves against others, comparing themselves to others, arguing, fighting with others, etc. it's a pure forum for BPD insanity.

I would tell my XW to just get off it... but she couldn't pull herself away. 

she was either fighting with people: she loved to go on mom blogs/groups and criticize the inane "advice" other moms would give eachother; or she'd be posting pics of us to brag about something we did (took a trip, got a new car, etc.) or complaining to me we needed to take a trip or buy a new car if she saw her friends got one. 

our poor kids are very much "props" for her facebook page, it seems like, to show what a great mother she is (when the cameras are facing her).

[Cat Familiar]

WEW, the important question in my mind is "Does it feel like it's emotional cheating to you?" I would wager it does, since you proposed the title question in this thread.

Like PeteWitsend, I'm not convinced that it's innocent. It may be, but he appears to be actively looking for women to converse with.

Having had marriages with two BPD spouses, I might be overly suspicious. My first husband actively trolled for women, even a high school student once.    He had plausible deniability but he was definitely looking for opportunities to have extramarital affairs and he found them.

My current husband has female acquaintances with whom he shares interests that I don't share with him (Tibetan Buddhism and photography). I believe that he, like once removed mentions, is seeking external validation and an ego boost.

I don't believe he's looking for more interaction than that, but I can't speak for the women he has occasionally befriended. To my way of thinking, there's a slippery slope (no pun intended    ) and someone who cannot regulate their emotions or behavior can be playing with fire.

If you're already feeling distant with him, I could see how this could spur him into acting out more of this type of behavior, which I would imagine would make you feel even more distant. Like OR stated, being able to discuss this in a calm and detached way could help you discover more about his motivation for doing this.

[WitzEndWife]

To be clear, I don't really believe he would have a physical affair with anyone else - he is a VERY clingy person and I know his whereabouts pretty much the whole day. However, I do think he's seeking validation - having attractive female friends probably somehow convinces him that he's still attractive. Also, as others have mentioned, he probably seeks out younger women because they are less likely to expect him to be mature and responsible - he probably doesn't have to feel bad because he doesn't have a career or doesn't make very much money (things that he thinks are emasculating because I do have these things).

Petewitsend - Social media is definitely a playground for BPDs. Mine argues and "trolls" on there constantly - it's an obsession. I think the arguing and spitefulness is a way to exercise his rage outside of real life - much like some would do in video games. So, on the one hand, he argues relentlessly with people - and on the other hand, he gets validation from his private groups and from flirting with women.

Regarding this situation, there's not much I can do aside from communicating my boundaries and expectations. If he wants to hide things from me, well, I won't know until those things come to light. I have to focus on myself.

I had a talk with my T this morning, which did me some good. She wants me to do a lot of evaluating - pros and cons - of staying in this relationship. I need to address the codependency issues (letting him take control too often), and also the fear and the guilt. One thing I figured out was that, regardless of whether he stays or goes, he's always going to blame me on some level for his behavior, so it shouldn't matter to me whether he devalues me once I decide to be done with him. I wish I could just wave a magic wand and value myself enough to wake up and say, "Wow, this is messed up! Get me out of here!" I hope my therapy and journaling will get me to that point.

Thanks everyone for the insights - this has been a helpful conversation.

[formflier]

  I wish I could just wave a magic wand and value myself enough to wake up and say, "Wow, this is messed up! Get me out of here!" 

What do you think is holding you back?  Because you do have that power...right?

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

I mean, obviously, I have that power, but I'm frozen by the FOG - mostly F. I'm afraid of the fallout - I'm afraid of how he will demonize me and make me out to be a bad person. I am afraid of the emotional pain he will inflict on me. I'm afraid of feeling guilt. I'm afraid of how that's going to affect my home and my pets.

But, on the other hand:

I think I will have more energy to do more around the house once he's gone. He might take the big hound, in which case I won't have the expense and stress of having two dogs (even though I love her and will worry about her), I will have more emotional strength to recover, so it might not be as bad as I think. It's just having the strength to take the leap.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm frozen by the FOG - mostly F. I'm afraid of the fallout - I'm afraid of how he will demonize me and make me out to be a bad person. I am afraid of the emotional pain he will inflict on me. I'm afraid of feeling guilt. I'm afraid of how that's going to affect my home and my pets.

What is the worst possible thing that could happen if he "demonized" you?

I'm betting this plays into childhood issues about you not feeling good enough.

[formflier]

  I'm afraid of how he will demonize me and make me out to be a bad person. I am afraid of the emotional pain he will inflict on me. I'm afraid of feeling guilt. I'm afraid of how that's going to affect my home and my pets.

 

This is hard stuff...  

Isn't this stuff already happening?  Are you thinking it will get worse? 

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Cat - It definitely plays into my issues with rejection. I know that the worst that could happen is probably that he calls me all kinds of horrible names and paints me as a horrible person, and then lies about me to everyone he knows, turning everyone against me. Maybe he breaks some of my things.

I never said it was a rational fear - just one that I acknowledge and am trying to find a way to deal with so I can overcome it. I have to do more journaling on it. It's been hard because I don't feel comfortable journaling when uBPDh is nearby - I feel like he always looks over my shoulder at what I'm doing - and he did not go anywhere without me this weekend. The only time I got away from him was when we took the dogs on a walk and the big hound was misbehaving, so he took her home, while I continued on with the Beagle.

I'll admit, I feel so refreshed and calm when he's not around. I need to get myself used to the idea of not worrying about him. I should probably spend time by myself more often. The problem is that, if I want to do so, I have to leave the house, and there are only so many places I can think of going. Maybe I'll work on making a list for myself. Maybe some nights I could double up on gym time or just go to a park and go for a walk. Eh, just thinking out loud here!

Fear isn't an easy thing to overcome, but I want to get to a place where I find my courage. I am just not there yet.

[lonely38]

I had many many warnings over the years of marriage to my bpd husband.  I always told myself, 'at least he has never actually cheated on me with another female'.  I saw all the warning signs, including secret emails, witnessing his flirting with other women even when I was around.  A good friend we knew with whom he had an emotional affair.  Then after 31 years of marriage, he confessed he had decades of cheating, mostly all of which were anonymous sex.  This explains his lack of being able to be truly intimate. 

He needed an outlet to give himself some kind of relief from pressure.  And he found those outlets.  He was a master at being secretive.  And even with me, over the years, acting as his detective, he still managed to be secretive.

I would listen to your sixth sense.  We all have a gut feeling of what is going on and I am guessing most of the time those feelings are fairly accurate.  Wish I had listened to my gut about 30-35 years ago. 

[WitzEndWife]

Thanks for sharing your story, lonely38. It's such an awful feeling to be lied to.

My gut actually does say that he's not doing anything physical with anyone. He is EXTREMELY clingy to me and rarely leaves the house, except to work. He doesn't go out at night, he has very few friends. I really do believe that this situation was him seeking validation and alleviating some loneliness. I do not think he intended to cheat on me.

I could be naive here, but I've been cheated on before and this does not feel like that. If I'm wrong, I have no way of finding out anyway until I do, so I might as well give him the benefit of the doubt.

[lonely38]

The question for a lot of us is do we believe our disordered partners?  I am guessing many or most of us do not.  Which means we are in a relationship where we really do not feel safe.  For me, this has led to a lot of physical and emotional trauma in my body. 

A lifetime of being married to a man with bpd has robbed me (and us) of a relationship that could have been so much more.  The big aha moment for me has been to realize that he, more than likely, will never change.  Which really means I need to change.

I am doing lots of work on boundaries.  I work to be respectful toward my bpd husband.  I am not vengeful toward him.  I am also not giving into his FOG, the fear, obligations and guilt he has used on me for decades.  I can see in him that this is very frustrating.  He is using lots of distance toward me.  I am ok with that for now, but I do realize this is also a tool of abuse he has used over and over.

He has told me 'we have so much we need to talk about'.  The sad fact is these conversations go nowhere.  So for now I do not participate in conversations where I feel unsafe.

As of now, there is very little good in our marriage.  No touching, very little conversation and lots of unresolved issues.  I am honestly unsure where this will go.  But I do know where I will go.  I go to safe places, to joy, to rest and self care.  It is a difficult process because it means I quit thinking so much about my bpd husband and I start to think about getting back into life.

[WitzEndWife]

It's so hard to heal from such devastating betrayal, that's for sure. BPDs are tough to trust. My trust issues don't stem from my H hiding things, but more from him saying he's going to do X and not following through. I don't believe him anymore whatsoever.

You're absolutely right though when it comes to detaching and self care. My T and I had a tough discussion today about codependency and how, by taking care of or worrying about his feelings all of the time I'm ignoring my own. I really have to practice being in the moment and asking myself what I want and identifying how I feel. It should not matter whether my H is happy or sad, in a great mood or a horrible one - I need to prioritize how I feel and quit letting his mood dictate how the day is going to go. It's a lot easier said than done, but it is the one thing that is really going to help me detach from him enough to prioritize my needs and do what I need to do for myself.

We don't realize how much we erase ourselves for BPDs until we really look at it. I feel ashamed and disappointed in myself, but now that I know this, I have to take the steps to fix it. It's a lot easier said than done, but if it was easy, we would not be here.

[lonely38]

The hardest part for me is not the realizing I need to quit worrying, do self care, have boundaries, etc.,  The hardest is for me to quit thinking about whatever it is that he is upset about and actually releasing myself from the trigger it causes in me with stress and anxiety.

Hopefully, practice makes perfect!

[Cat Familiar]

The hardest is for me to quit thinking about whatever it is that he is upset about and actually releasing myself from the trigger it causes in me with stress and anxiety.

I had a lifetime of feeling anxiety after growing up with a BPD mother. It didn’t take much for me to later be triggered by a BPD husband.

Comments like “You don’t care” we’re really wounding because I cared too much and didn’t know how I could care even more.

When I changed my pattern, I started feeling like a narcissist because I was caring about myself, and I wasn’t used to doing that. Also hearing, “You only care about yourself” from my BPD loved ones kept me in line for years, caring far more about them than me.

Now I’m comfortable with being myself and taking care of my needs, these words don’t wound me. In fact, I will agree if accused. And that has taken away their effectiveness and I no longer hear these types of remarks.