PART 2: Preparing for the inevitable

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This thread was split from Part 1 here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337087.0;all

The recording is saved in two places, one of which is my work computer.  Same goes with any other documentation that I don't want W to have access too.

I was set to contact L today - but last night was me listening to an hour and a half of W wanting to kill herself.  I think she is serious.  If I file and she is served, she will immediately attempt.  I am nearly 100% certain of that.  She has attempted once before since we have been together, and last night she sounded far more desperate than I have ever heard her.  Yet, I can't convince her to get more help than she gets, and gets even more upset if anyone implies that she needs it.  I can't force her to get treatment.  I've called 911 before when she has said she was going to kill herself.  Police show up, she puts on a happy face and she turns around and says she is ok, just mad at me.  Police look at me as they are walking out the door and say "good luck".  They say they can't do anything unless she makes suicidal statements in their presence.  She has a T, and in my opinion an irresponsible T.  Either W does not convey this kind of despair to T, or T is not proactive enough.  

I suspect if I had called the other night regarding W's physical abuse, police likely still would have done nothing except suggest I find a hotel for the night and contact a lawyer the next day.  

I'm exhausted.  Right now the suicide talk has be drained, and realize extricating myself from this mess is going to be very heartbreaking and difficult.

[maxsterling]

This thread was split from Part 1 here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337087.0;all

The recording is saved in two places, one of which is my work computer.  Same goes with any other documentation that I don't want W to have access too.

I was set to contact L today - but last night was me listening to an hour and a half of W wanting to kill herself.  I think she is serious.  If I file and she is served, she will immediately attempt.  I am nearly 100% certain of that.  She has attempted once before since we have been together, and last night she sounded far more desperate than I have ever heard her.  Yet, I can't convince her to get more help than she gets, and gets even more upset if anyone implies that she needs it.  I can't force her to get treatment.  I've called 911 before when she has said she was going to kill herself.  Police show up, she puts on a happy face and she turns around and says she is ok, just mad at me.  Police look at me as they are walking out the door and say "good luck".  They say they can't do anything unless she makes suicidal statements in their presence.  She has a T, and in my opinion an irresponsible T.  Either W does not convey this kind of despair to T, or T is not proactive enough.  

I suspect if I had called the other night regarding W's physical abuse, police likely still would have done nothing except suggest I find a hotel for the night and contact a lawyer the next day.  

I'm exhausted.  Right now the suicide talk has be drained, and realize extricating myself from this mess is going to be very heartbreaking and difficult.

[worriedStepmom]

You should contact a lawyer and ask for advice.  There are ways that she can be served and make sure that she is not alone after.  It might even be a good idea to get your wife's therapist involved.

She is holding you hostage with these threats - and even with the attempts.  She is escalating her behavior to try to keep you in line.

A lawyer, the police, and others can help you devise a plan to keep you safe while also looking out for your wife's physical safety.

[ForeverDad]

I was set to contact L today - but last night was me listening to an hour and a half of W wanting to kill herself.  I think she is serious.  If I file and she is served, she will immediately attempt.  I am nearly 100% certain of that.  She has attempted once before since we have been together, and last night she sounded far more desperate than I have ever heard her.  Yet, I can't convince her to get more help than she gets, and gets even more upset if anyone implies that she needs it.  I can't force her to get treatment.  I've called 911 before when she has said she was going to kill herself.  Police show up, she puts on a happy face and she turns around and says she is ok, just mad at me.  Police look at me as they are walking out the door and say "good luck".  They say they can't do anything unless she makes suicidal statements in their presence.  She has a T, and in my opinion an irresponsible T.  Either W does not convey this kind of despair to T, or T is not proactive enough.

I suspect if I had called the other night regarding W's physical abuse, police likely still would have done nothing except suggest I find a hotel for the night and contact a lawyer the next day.

It is well known that one of the reasons acting-out PD spouses feel free to threaten and manipulate in private settings (at home, in the car, etc) is that they can vent with impunity and then Deny it if called to account with others.  Was her suicidal ideation recorded?  That would be the undeniable 'witness' you needed.

Of course once you do that there may be no turning back.

One important point made here (see our Help! button) is that we spouses or family members are not expected to decide whether suicidal talk is really suicidal or actually pressuring manipulation.  That's for the trained emergency responders or medical professionals to determine.  A simple way to remember it is that professionals don't expect us to 'Play Doctor', they need prompt reporting with at least some level of documentation and then they take it from there.  Without documentation the smooth talking spouse can Deny and make you look like the problem person.

I'm no mental health professionals but most suicidal-claiming persons described here are using suicide as manipulative threats and not really suicidal.  Maybe she is, maybe she isn't.  But she's an adult and responsible for herself.  You can't fix her.  And you can't protect her from herself without remaining involved and exposed to manipulation.  Do you see that's probably her "comfort level"?

[mart555]

I'm no mental health professionals but most suicidal-claiming persons described here are using suicide as manipulative threats and not really suicidal.  Maybe she is, maybe she isn't.  But she's an adult and responsible for herself.  You can't fix her.  And you can't protect her from herself without remaining involved and exposed to manipulation.  Do you see that's probably her "comfort level"?

Mine stopped with the suicidal crap once she figured out that even when she calmed down the cops would still bring her to the psych ward because they did not believe her.   

[livednlearned]

extricating myself from this mess is going to be very heartbreaking and difficult.

I hated the decision-making part of leaving. It was excruciating -- I think I was in freeze mode, completely paralyzed. I can still remember the dread and despair, though it's getting more and more distant. It took me years to get the momentum to get out of my marriage.

A lot of us waited until the decision was made for us, once we got to whatever invisible line was crossed when the wheels finally came off.

You get so broken down and exhausted and instead of things getting easy, leaving seems so complicated and hard and requires everything you feel depleted of.

Be gentle with yourself right now. You're probably beating yourself for staying. Even those of us encouraging you to leave may remember how excruciating it is to know when it's actually time.

Do something that builds yourself up, even if it feels small. Make sure you matter 

[GaGrl]

I agree with ForeverDad -- an audio of her suicide discussions would support 911 responders in believing you, rather than your wife's denials. And you are not trained to assess suicide threats -- she is definitely at the point of needing intervention.

What do you think is increasing her suicide threats lately? Has she been in this particular place before?

[formflier]

she is definitely at the point of needing intervention.

And it is likely helpful to separate this decision from staying in the marriage and even whether or not to try and prosecute DV.

Isn't this something better handled by those with professional training?

Best,

FF

[mart555]

Be gentle with yourself right now. You're probably beating yourself for staying. Even those of us encouraging you to leave may remember how excruciating it is to know when it's actually time.

Yeah I'm sure we make it sound easy but I too had a really difficult time.  I ripped the band-aid and acted fast so that it was then too late to back out and gave me momentum to keep pushing.   But I frequently had feelings of guild / fear of the unknown / doubt and my sister helped me through this.   It's really messed up how much control the BPD has over us when you think about it. 

[maxsterling]

What do you think is increasing her suicide threats lately? Has she been in this particular place before?

Well, if you listen to her it is the hot weather.  She says she feels trapped in the house, trapped with the kids, and trapped in the city.  But, she refuses options that would alleviate that situation.  That tells me it is more, and I see it as a hole she is digging for herself.  The kids are acting out because she acts out in front of them (they don't act out in front of me in the same way).  Friends and family don't want to talk to her or hang out with her because she doesn't want to hang out with them.  She has felt despair for about 6 months (coincides with her stopping anti depressants), but it got really bad when the weather got warmer (we live in a hot climate).  She has attempted several times in her life.  I fully expect her to impulsively attempt again soon.

[maxsterling]

Be gentle with yourself right now. You're probably beating yourself for staying. Even those of us encouraging you to leave may remember how excruciating it is to know when it's actually time.

Do something that builds yourself up, even if it feels small. Make sure you matter 

That is what I am doing now.  Trying to resist the urgency in anything, trying to have a few smiles per day, and finding a few minutes here or there for things I like.  I want to make decisions with a clear head.  Unfortunately, I think I will be coming home from work to more dysregulation.  S is apparently acting out, W put him on timeout, and he is acting out even more.  He does not act out with me in the same way.  Yet W is sending me text messages blaming me for his behavior because I don't "set limits" with him.  I wish she could tell me what "limits" I am not setting (there are none - it is just a way to blame me).  If I don't engage in this conversation, she claims I don't care.   If I do, I am accused of being defensive. 

[GaGrl]

You sound buttoned down and realistic -- that's good!

[formflier]

She has attempted several times in her life.  I fully expect her to impulsively attempt again soon.

How man of these attempts had intervention by/with her medical team and how many were you aware of that she did..and somehow moved on from?

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

Mine stopped with the suicidal crap once she figured out that even when she calmed down the cops would still bring her to the psych ward because they did not believe her.   

I am not sure it is "crap" with my W.  She has attempted before, and I really think she views suicide as an option.  Her 100% complete lack of impulse control makes this a volatile mix.  I've called 911 many times before because of these threats.  I don't think she has the ability to stop herself when dysregulated.  Again I go back to her T.  One time she had a T whose office was across the street from the hospital.  Midway through a session with W, that T basically told her she was going to admit her to the hospital, and walked her across the street.  Either W does not convey to current T the level of her despair in the same way she conveys it to me, or that the T does not see this as something serious.  I am not sure the laws regulating Ts, but it was my understanding that their license required them to take certain actions if particular things were said or done.  

[maxsterling]

How man of these attempts had intervention by/with her medical team and how many were you aware of that she did..and somehow moved on from?

One since we have been together.  I don't know what would have happened had I not been there - whether she would have called 911 herself.  Another times she said she was going to go leave the house and go someplace and kill herself, then she left the house and drove away. I called 911, they chased her down with a helicopter.  I don't know if she would have attempted or not had I not called 911.

Prior to meeting me, I have once heard her tell of a time she attempted, but immediately called 911.   The other times I am not sure, but I know at least once someone else intervened.  Every time she has wound up in a hospital, sometimes for a week or two, and sometimes for a few months.  I am assuming there was significant involvement from concerned people and medical staff for all of them.

[livednlearned]

Have you had a chance to talk to an attorney about options?

Talking to an attorney does not mean you have to make any decisions.

They see people like us all day, people who aren't sure if or when it's time to leave.

[formflier]

One since we have been together.  

And how did that one resolve?  How long did she "treat" for it?

How long until she went into denial?  Does she acknowledge that she did this before?

Best,

FF

[mart555]

I am not sure it is "crap" with my W.  She has attempted before, and I really think she views suicide as an option.  Her 100% complete lack of impulse control makes this a volatile mix.  I've called 911 many times before because of these threats.  I don't think she has the ability to stop herself when dysregulated.  Again I go back to her T.  One time she had a T whose office was across the street from the hospital.  Midway through a session with W, that T basically told her she was going to admit her to the hospital, and walked her across the street.  Either W does not convey to current T the level of her despair in the same way she conveys it to me, or that the T does not see this as something serious.  I am not sure the laws regulating Ts, but it was my understanding that their license required them to take certain actions if particular things were said or done.  

Oh don't get me wrong.  When I meant "crap" it was in a way that "Not the suicide threats again! It really sucks to deal with this every time".   They get annoying fast.    Mine was:
- taking pills then stopped when she saw that I was calling 911
- threatened me to give her a 2nd chance or she would kill herself (5-6 times?)
- Told the kids she was going to go kill herself so I took her car while calling 911. She "stole" mine.  Cops / dispatch found her using cell signal before she turned it off.  It was like a movie, 4-5 cars looking for her, cops in my house on radio with dispatch.
 Razor blades on her when she was found, along with farewell letters she wrote me and the kids. Screaming when they put her in the police car.
- Told the therapist that she would not be able to drive there because she would drive into incoming traffic so she wanted me to drive her there.  Therapist called me and I told her the story.. she could not believe all the crap I had to endure.  she then told the ex to take a cab if she did not want to drive. 
- She left the house (no keys no wallet) to  "disappear", in the middle of winter.  I called the cops while following from the car then she came back home.  Her mom pulled the same stunt 10 years ago when she came to visit... I should have seen the writing on the wall.
- I've seen her put her head in the door jamb and slam the door on her head.  Throw a tantrum like a kid while stomping on the floor. Bloody knuckles from hitting stuff... 

She stopped with the threats once she realized it landed her in the psych ward every time.  Definitely act, and see if the cops can take her in. She'll get tired of it because every time it's a minimum of 72 hours in there.. 

Could she have done it? Likely. I was sure she would do it but I guess I got used to these threats after a while.  A month ago, while breaching her no contact condition, she said that she was "too weak to kill herself" but she also told her lawyer (I was bcc'd) that she hoped to go to jail and get murdered in there. 

Truly messed up... 

You're far from out of the woods but man, stop putting up with this.  And I say this as someone who needed a kick to get out of there.  I'm hoping that our gentle kicks help you see the light.

[livednlearned]

Remember, too, that talking to a lawyer is different than making a decision.

My situation accelerated fast and it was helpful understanding some of the implications (gathered from info gathering sessions with lawyers) so that I could make quick decisions with a little less stress when things took off.

You can phrase things as, "If a father were to do x, how would that impact y?"

"If a mother had a history of SI that occurred more than 6 months ago, how would that impact the father's chance of getting custody?"

It's good to have knowledge, most of it you will not use but it's a parachute just in case you need it.

[ForeverDad]

Have you read The Bridge?  Follow the link.  You can't save someone if the person doesn't want to be saved.  At some point you will probably have to Let Go and Move On, setting yourself and the children as the priorities.

[Cat Familiar]

Max, what’s going on? I know you don’t have much time to post. Have things settled down temporarily?

[MeandThee29]

Have you had a chance to talk to an attorney about options?

Talking to an attorney does not mean you have to make any decisions.

They see people like us all day, people who aren't sure if or when it's time to leave.

I talked to an attorney several years before separation and began educating myself. Then again with the same attorney when the first separation occurred because I had a minor who was having anxiety attacks over custody issues. Then I just continued to educate myself and went to several free seminars. Actually deciding to divorce was a little more complicated after the second separation because I felt like he had to be on board for various reasons. I had illusions of getting back together for quite awhile too. After that, I interviewed three more attorneys and went with one. He's a gem. Very accessible via email, and the most experienced one I looked into.

Mine insisted that seeing an attorney is the end of the marriage, but that isn't necessarily so. You do have to know your rights because the disordered individual may want to be in charge and may believe that they know more than the lawyers.

[Cat Familiar]

You do have to know your rights because the disordered individual may want to be in charge and may believe that they know more than the lawyers.

Yes. My ex-husband thought he knew how the law worked without having any legal knowledge whatsoever. It was rather amusing when he got set straight on what his rights actually were.

[maxsterling]

I still haven't contacted an attorney.  Basically I feel lost as to how to find one.  Any advice here?  There is a free legal advice contact through my work, I will call that number and see if they can help. 

W is still extremely dysregulated, and likely suicidal.  She screams and verbally abuses me in front of the kids, the kids HATE it (very obvious most of their tantrums are a result of that).  The other day S2 clung onto me and would not let W put him to bed.  Every time W raises her voice, S2 screams or throws things. I do have audio recordings of some of these events - I feel they will come in useful.  Of course W finds a way to blame it on me, that the kids are more pleasant with me because I let them "have what they want".  Not true at all.  They just don't act out when it is just me, and I rarely need to set limits. 

Other things I am doing right now - it is becoming plainly obvious that I need to have a separate space for my own health and well being.  I am sure W feels the same way.  I need this so bad that I am willing to give up what I have just for some peace and quiet.  I purchased the house before we got married, so should we separate legally there is no issue there.  Financially is another issue - W only has disability income, and she would not be able to afford an apartment without additional financial assistance.  I am sure a separation agreement would require that.  Plus, part custody - how does that work with child support?  I would likely need to find day care for the days in which I have the kids - and that is more $$$.  I'm willing to give up the house and sell quickly to an investor just to have the cash and unload the burden (more freedom) so I contacted a few of them.  The issue is the cost of maintaining two residences - W moves out and I am still going to need to find a place to live on my own.  The car I drive is also not suitable for two car seats - so I will need a different car.

Talking to investors today, trying to figure out what finances will be available.  I am very sad about all this.  I'd rather not move back into an apartment.  I'm sad that deep in my mind I knew better than getting married and having kids with a pwbpd- I was on this board before we got married - I knew better.  I am feeling more comfortable with doing what I can to get away from this mess - to me the stress of a divorce is looking like much less than the nightly stress I face.

 

[worriedStepmom]

It helped me to separate my to-do list into two buckets - long term goals and short term goals.

Going back to an apartment?  That's short-term.  Your initial focus is on getting yourself and your kids to a safe space, figuring out your finances, and starting the legal steps to protect yourself.  Once you get the short-term stuff worked out, you can worry about finding the perfect place to raise your kids. 

I found a lawyer by asking coworkers and friends who were divorced who they would or would not recommend.  You can also google "divorce lawyer high conflict" for your area.  Get an initial consultation, lay out the situation, and see what they recommend.  If the lawyer has no experience with high conflict situations, says you will only get every other weekend status, etc, then they aren't going to be the right one for you.

I'm sad that deep in my mind I knew better than getting married and having kids with a pwbpd- I was on this board before we got married - I knew better

When I was getting divorced, my goal was to do the best that I knew how to do and learn from my mistakes so that next time I could do better.  You can't change the past.  It's okay to forgive yourself for your mistakes.

[maxsterling]

"High Conflict" - thanks.  Knowing that term helped a bunch. 

[livednlearned]

sometimes searching other keywords like "parental alienation" can also be useful for finding a lawyer experienced in high-conflict.

Altho, when you do a consult with those lawyers, it's good to figure out if they are aggressive or assertive.

Aggressive might seem nice in the beginning but it will end up causing more conflict and expense than necessary.

Assertive is down to business, split things up, move on, while knowing that this is a high-conflict personality you're dealing with.

We have an article on how to tell if you're working with an assertive lawyer on the site, if you haven't read it yet.

[GaGrl]

In talking to lawyers, one really good question I've heard on this site was,

 "If you found yourself in a high conflict divorce, who would you want as your lawyer?"

 if you interview three lawyers, make sure you have your one-hour interview laid out to get the most info possible -- how much do you allot to tell your story, then what questions do you absolutely need answered.

[maxsterling]

I just went for a walk and then lunch... and did some thinking and day dreaming...

If I could waive a magic wand right now and suddenly have a simple apartment away from W, and W have her own place, and I had the kids for half the week and W the other half - I would be happy.  I am not sure I would feel very sad about the loss after a few days.  I think I would be able to take a deep breath, recognize my peace and quiet and freedom to come home from work and not have names called at me or be cursed all night long.  Taking care of the kids for half the time by myself would feel like a dream - I already can think of things I can do with them without a controlling, negative W with me. 

[livednlearned]

It sounds like things are becoming more clear for you 

Your goal is 50/50, your wife would remain in the marital home, you would find an apartment.

Would you feel comfortable asking for primary custody so that there is some negotiating room to get you to 50/50?

She will probably ask for primary custody even if she doesn't want it.

[maxsterling]

I know she would ask for primary custody.  I think she expects it.  I think she expects full custody and will probably try and claim I am somehow negligent and that the kids are unsafe with me.  She would probably try and put up roadblocks to me taking the kids to my parents house, claim that I am feeding them the wrong food, or claim that whatever apartment I rent will be unsafe.  I would imagine though that a lawyer would try to talk her out of all that.

She would move out on her own, too.  The house would be sold, and the cash I get from it would be used to cover expenses for awhile.  She does not want to live in the house.  There is a chance that I would stay in the house for a few months, but I think at this point I am feeling more comfortable with a new start.  I just want away from the abuse.  In the past when she dysregulates and becomes abusive, it lasts a few days at most.  Then things quiet for a month or two.  But right now it has been constant verbal abuse for about 3 weeks, and I would say mostly negative since the beginning of this year when she stopped her antidepressants. 

Right now she is wanting me to come home early because she needs to "get out of here".  I don't know what that means, nor will I question it.  I am assuming it means the kids are acting out, and she is tired of them.