Are people with BPD empathetic?

[Forgiveness]

I am new to the idea of BPD and have been doing lots of reading. Some say that people with BPD are empathetic and some say they are not.

I'm convinced my GF is genuinely empathetic. She feels everything BIG. Not just anger but also joy, love, curiosity, excitement, and passion. This is why I fell in love with her. My GF adores me and I was so very lonely after my wife died. GF with BPD (perhaps just traits?) is honestly a great listener.

Is this typical? Do you all have wonderful passionate partners most of the time who randomly snap into anger? Is BPD perhaps a wonderful strength if managed properly?

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[flare1]

I think this is one of the most misunderstood aspects of BPD and I will give you what's solely my opinion and nothing more.  I think that pwBPD have a great ability to sense how others are feeling, not to be confused with being empathetic.  Meaning, they will pick up on what type of mood you are in better than probably anyone else.  However, when it comes to being truly empathetic, they are too burdened by their own feelings that they cannot FEEL yours.  I do believe they have the ability to be empathetic but simply cannot act empathetically due to their own inner turmoil.  Unlike a sociopath which simply doesn't posses the capacity at all, I think pwBPD do have this capacity deep down they just cannot access it. So my eyes are fine, I'm just wearing a blindfold kind of thing.  I think this why there is so much confusion around this.  The end result unfortunately, of "not being empathetic" I find true regardless of the why.

[zachira]

I have a mother and siblings with BPD and NPD.  I would say that people with BPD and/or NPD notice that they are getting or not getting the responses they want. If it is the desired response, than they respond more positively, and if it is an undesired response than they mistreat the person for not responding the way they wanted. An undesired response which can be as simple as an undesired facial expression can trigger the BPD and/or NPD into a melt down and trashing the other person.

[once removed]

in general, people with BPD have empathy. of course the extent of it varies from person to person (see scale below).

when a person (anyone) is in a dysregulated or emotionally aroused state, that ability is diminished.

the DSM assesses empathy on a scale of 1-5.

Assess Your Empathy Level

The five levels of empathy as defined by the DSM 5.0 architects are listed below. Want to know where you stand? Ask someone very close to you - ask your children - don't make a self-assessment.

Helping each other to grow to be more empathetic is one very important way we help each other at  bpdfamily.com

    Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

    Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

    Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

    Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

    Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

[Scarlet Phoenix]

In general, I would say that yes, people with BPD (pwBPD) are empathetic. It's a spectrum disorder, though, so pwBPD are as different as you and me. What often makes it seems like they aren't is when they are dysregulated. In that state their emotions are so heightened that there isn't room for anyone or anything else. It's an extreme state.

I recognise what you're saying about the passion and feeling everything BIG. I'm not like that, but my ex-dBPDh (diagnosed BPD husband) is, and that's part of what I found so attractive in him. With abandon throw himself into a new experience or hobby, it was so alluring to me.

[Forgiveness]

With abandon throw himself into a new experience or hobby, it was so alluring to me.

Yes I think this is not a bad thing.

My theory is that some people start out in life "extra sensitive." If they are nurtured and respected as children, this is fine and they can have a great life. They are very empathetic. If they are abused then they are still empathetic but over-react to perceived threats from others. They see danger everywhere. Some of them are really good with animals, because the animals do not judge them. This is just my theory!

There is some really great information on here. Thanks everyone!

[Chosen]

I tend to agree with flare1 generally speaking.  But I'm only speaking from my own experience.
 I think pwBPDs are good at sensing your mood.  They can act empathetic, but it is not the kind of empathy we generally define as- the unselfish, non-judgmental "I feel you" empathy. 

When your mood is the same as theirs, they are able to relate to you, so the connection between you two is stronger.  Or say you experience the same thing they have experienced before.  Then they would seem empathetic, because they see you as an extension of themselves.

Yet when you are showing emotion that they don't comprehend, or you're reacting to an incident in the way they wouldn't, that's where the so-called empathy stops.  E.g. someone offends you, and instead of raging at them or blaming them in the way your pwBPD would, you see their point of view and, although you don't agree, accept them for who they are.  For me, that's when the BPD-ness comes out fully and he just can't see/ accept the way I react. 

For me, empathy means accepting somebody even though we don't agree.  And I don't think my uBPDh is capable of doing this.

[zachira]

This thread has left me thinking about what healthy empathy is. There are times when we have a deep feeling for others in our body which shows in our face and posture. This type of empathy can be very heartwarming when it is the love a parent shows for a child or when someone shows sadness for a person who is feeling sad. Certainly there are times when being empathetic is not appropriate such as if one person is angry, it only escalates the situation instead of helping if the other person gets angry as well. People with BPD tend to want others to empathize with their feelings and emotions even in situations in which it is not reasonable or safe to do so. People with BPD sometimes show excessive empathy by caring for people that they barely know who usually can not reciprocate their feelings while mistreating those they are closest to.

[Ozzie101]

Really interesting thoughts and I agree.

My uBPDh can be very empathetic with others and very caring and thoughtful. But when people can't read his mind or when they think in ways that are different from his, he gets angry and frustrated and can't understand why they don't think the way he does. Or why they can't read his mind and know exactly what to do and how to act with him without him giving any guidance.

He told me once that when he was really angry, he deliberately tried to get me angry, too, because he felt like it helped him to have another angry person around. I disagreed and his therapist did, too, telling him that not only was that unhealthy, it could be a recipe for disaster. Thankfully, he listened and started changing his way of thinking on that one.

In H's case, he was adopted at birth. He's always been an emotional person (and meeting his biological family has shown that a lot of that is genetic) but his adoptive parents were very reserved and strict. They expected pleasant, happy demeanor at all times. Anger, sadness, etc., were "bad" and were to be hidden. You can see how that would mess with H's emotional regulation abilities.

[zachira]

It's like the person with BPD has backwards empathy, having empathy for others at the wrong time or wanting it expressed by others when not appropriate. Those of us who enable the BPD also have backwards empathy at times, choosing to care take a person with BPD instead of healthier relationships when there is a choice. Obviously we don't choose our biological relatives, and we do choose the people we get involved in sexual romantic relationships with.

[waverider]

With my partner I would say it is more like a dysfunctional empathy. Even then only when not triggered.

Definitely picks up when things are not right with someone else,  however the context of what is happening is usually way off. First instinct is to think "am I going to blamed for this?", ie is a defensive response required.  This is followed by" can i adopt this feeling, to demonstrate that emotional issues are real thereby justifying my own issue" ie I am being empathetic towards as I would like you to be towards me (validates her own dramas by playing the rescuer, setting an example for you).

Of course if triggered she has absolutely no empathy for the impact on others of her behaviours. After all if she did then that would show she was fully aware of the consequences of her behaviour on others, meaning it would be deliberately malicious and less excusable.

Eg If you have to spend a cold winters night sleeping in the car because they are having a midnight rant and not letting you get any sleep.  Are they empathetic about what you are going through, or are they playing the victim because you "abandoned" them by walking out?

Having effective empathy is the foundation stone on which personal values are build. The BPD  weak sense of identity, means there is little in the way of foundations on which to build anything on, leading to pure reactionary behaviour to whatever environmental stimulus is present.

Being overly "empathetic" towards complete strangers is easy as it is clearly not them at fault and it is easy to play the ideal rescuer as there is no personal onus on them to change anything about themselves. Much like it is easier to play the perfect charmer to someone who means nothing to you as there is nothing to lose.