SD22 and boundaries

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Following from this thread

On father's day SD22 was expected to arrive at some point a day before her job interview in our town. This was discussed between H and SD22. It was presented to me as, "SD22 will need some time with me at night because of her anxiety, just a heads up."

S17 is recovering from surgery and that was on my mind. I let the SD22 thing slide. H is supposed to say, "Let me run things by LnL."

Didn't happen. SD22 getting a job is a top priority and what would I say, "No, SD22 can't stay here the night before her job interview." 

Around noon on the day she was expected to arrive, she texted H. "Can I call you?" He said yes. They talked. She asked if it would be ok that her BF comes to stay, that he had the day off. And by the way, he had already left. He would be there before her.

H came to me to repeat the conversation, "I guess SD22 is going to arrive at x o'clock, she asked if it was ok that BF comes to stay. Apparently he has already left."

And then: "It's ok."

With more clarity than I've ever had with one of these interactions, I said, "It's not ok. It's actually inconsiderate and disrespectful. She didn't ask permission, she set it up so you could not say no. Well-played SD22, she just played to win and won."

He responded, "She did want to make sure it was ok, and BF does have a schedule where he doesn't always know when he's going to have time off. I don't know why she didn't just ask a few days ago, and if she didn't know for sure, to say it was a possibility."

I said, "SD22 is more socially challenged than most kids her age. How is she going to have successful long-term relationships if she doesn't understand how to interact respectfully with people? The lessons start here, with us."

H bee lined it out of the room.

I figured his emotions were already in play when he walked in and I added some gas to the flames.

I also feel realistic about changes in our relationship. Change takes time. Things seemed to be ok after we talked, altho I sensed a tiny bit of tension in H which often happens when SD22 is topic of conversation.

Later, I left the house to do other stuff. BF arrived, SD22 arrived. When I got back, H was uncharacteristically angry, barely holding it in. SD22 was trying to print her resume the night before the job interview and my printer wasn't working. I'm more or less the tech person in the house, H wanted me to help SD22 and I said, "Why doesn't SD22 plan to go to UPS tomorrow morning and print it out there. I prefer to be in a trouble shooting mindset with printers. They drive me nuts. This gives SD22 a chance to problem solve and it's more likely she'll learn from this experience."

Not sure this made H angrier per se, altho later in the evening he walked out of the house by himself trying to cool off. He rarely gets angry. He has never walked out.

After we were alone, H kind of kitchen sinked me -- he does that when things boil over. Lots of stress at work for him, which makes it harder to tolerate lesser stresses.

I guess I'm trying to do some forensics on what happened and welcome any insight. My T feels I am overly invested in validation when it comes to SD22, and encourages more detachment, especially for the sake of having a healthy marriage. She believes H is too deep into white knight/hero complex and that I need to create my own path, starting with calling attention to SD22's disregard for me. T also requested I not refer to the BF visiting as a boundary issue and instead refer to SD22's behaviors as rude.

[livednlearned]

Following from this thread

On father's day SD22 was expected to arrive at some point a day before her job interview in our town. This was discussed between H and SD22. It was presented to me as, "SD22 will need some time with me at night because of her anxiety, just a heads up."

S17 is recovering from surgery and that was on my mind. I let the SD22 thing slide. H is supposed to say, "Let me run things by LnL."

Didn't happen. SD22 getting a job is a top priority and what would I say, "No, SD22 can't stay here the night before her job interview." 

Around noon on the day she was expected to arrive, she texted H. "Can I call you?" He said yes. They talked. She asked if it would be ok that her BF comes to stay, that he had the day off. And by the way, he had already left. He would be there before her.

H came to me to repeat the conversation, "I guess SD22 is going to arrive at x o'clock, she asked if it was ok that BF comes to stay. Apparently he has already left."

And then: "It's ok."

With more clarity than I've ever had with one of these interactions, I said, "It's not ok. It's actually inconsiderate and disrespectful. She didn't ask permission, she set it up so you could not say no. Well-played SD22, she just played to win and won."

He responded, "She did want to make sure it was ok, and BF does have a schedule where he doesn't always know when he's going to have time off. I don't know why she didn't just ask a few days ago, and if she didn't know for sure, to say it was a possibility."

I said, "SD22 is more socially challenged than most kids her age. How is she going to have successful long-term relationships if she doesn't understand how to interact respectfully with people? The lessons start here, with us."

H bee lined it out of the room.

I figured his emotions were already in play when he walked in and I added some gas to the flames.

I also feel realistic about changes in our relationship. Change takes time. Things seemed to be ok after we talked, altho I sensed a tiny bit of tension in H which often happens when SD22 is topic of conversation.

Later, I left the house to do other stuff. BF arrived, SD22 arrived. When I got back, H was uncharacteristically angry, barely holding it in. SD22 was trying to print her resume the night before the job interview and my printer wasn't working. I'm more or less the tech person in the house, H wanted me to help SD22 and I said, "Why doesn't SD22 plan to go to UPS tomorrow morning and print it out there. I prefer to be in a trouble shooting mindset with printers. They drive me nuts. This gives SD22 a chance to problem solve and it's more likely she'll learn from this experience."

Not sure this made H angrier per se, altho later in the evening he walked out of the house by himself trying to cool off. He rarely gets angry. He has never walked out.

After we were alone, H kind of kitchen sinked me -- he does that when things boil over. Lots of stress at work for him, which makes it harder to tolerate lesser stresses.

I guess I'm trying to do some forensics on what happened and welcome any insight. My T feels I am overly invested in validation when it comes to SD22, and encourages more detachment, especially for the sake of having a healthy marriage. She believes H is too deep into white knight/hero complex and that I need to create my own path, starting with calling attention to SD22's disregard for me. T also requested I not refer to the BF visiting as a boundary issue and instead refer to SD22's behaviors as rude.

[kells76]

I'm more of a "trees" person than a "forest" person so this exchange caught my eye:

"It's not ok. It's actually inconsiderate and disrespectful. She didn't ask permission, she set it up so you could not say no. Well-played SD22, she just played to win and won."

He responded, "She did want to make sure it was ok, and BF does have a schedule where he doesn't always know when he's going to have time off. I don't know why she didn't just ask a few days ago, and if she didn't know for sure, to say it was a possibility."

This reminds me of one of the classic underlying conflicts for SD13 & SD11 -- typically SD11 will do something that SD13 doesn't like, and where SD13 goes with it is "You MEANT to do it" (that is, you intentionally did this thing to get at ME personally). So, then, instead of the conflict/resolution being about "That thing hurt me; please don't do it", it becomes an argument about whether SD11 "meant" to or not. Which, as you can imagine, is an unwinnable argument. In fact, it's kind of argument-proof -- each side convinced that "they know" what the other side "meant" inside their head. And it misses the whole point of "I felt hurt when X happened" opening up the door for "Even though I didn't mean to, I can see that you were hurt, and I'll try not to do it again". Where the argument about whether someone meant it or not is really a bid for recognition of being in pain.

I wonder if that was part of this slice of the encounter -- you and DH having different views on whether SD22 "meant" this setup. Your experience sounds like for you, it came across as "she set it up this way and had agency and control". DH's response sounds like for him (for whatever reason, which might be a rabbit trail), he did not see SD22 as "doing it on purpose". I just wonder if that segment of the back-and-forth was subtly a disagreement about "what SD22 MEANT to do".

I would need to think more about the "forest" but those trees stood out to me. I wonder if there's a way to bypass the tacit "did she mean it as a setup or not" conflict and move to "(whether she meant to or not,) that is 100% not working for me". Though I'm sure you've thought about that before.

[worriedStepmom]

Your H reacted a little differently this time - he displayed anger and removed himself from the room to calm down.

Do you know where his anger was directed?  At you, SD, or himself?

[livednlearned]

you and DH having different views on whether SD22 "meant" this setup.

kells76, I hadn't thought about the nuance of what you're saying and I could see how it might make him upset. I also think he's not used to me being so direct. In the moment, I felt, Wait a sec that's disrespectful to you, H -- it's Father's Day and you were planning to spend the evening helping her deal with interview anxiety. Talk about a one eighty."

Then I felt, Wow -- if I was cooking the same dinner I made the night before and suddenly another person was introduced to the meal without my consent, that would've made me fume.

Your H reacted a little differently this time - he displayed anger and removed himself from the room to calm down.

I am wondering if his anger is about me changing my limits? I'm introducing new parameters, this is simply a sign that things are changing? He was all over the place with what was bothering him so it was hard to tell, worriedStepmom.

At one point he said to SD22 (with some heat), "You can't wait until the night before to print your resume for a job interview, SD22. Tomorrow, be enthusiastic about the job even if it isn't the one you're excited about."

So he sort of kitchen sinked her, too.

H came out to sit with me on the porch and swore, which he never does. "Has there ever been a generation like this before? I mean, f*@k. Our generation has really effed up this generation, they can't do anything for themselves."

I don't know. I'm wondering if this is a version of a nonBPD person's extinction burst. I don't get the impression that H really knows what he was angry about, which makes me think it's anger that the unhealthy dynamics are being confronted and addressed.

Sort of related...What I find interesting is that SD22, who is probably falling apart right now because we're home together and I'm not hanging out with her, was able to walk onto the porch and say, "I just want to say that the reason I didn't print out my resume the night before is because I've been really busy, working really really hard to get a job. I've sent out tons of resumes and I've been going to interviews and taking praxis exams and driving all over the place." I don't know how it ended because I got up to give them space.

What I'd really like to say in those moments is, "Hey SD22, your dad and I are out here relaxing, together. How about ask me if it's ok to go talk to your dad, that you'd like to discuss something in private inside. That way, I can sit out here and enjoy my wine while you two discuss a private matter between the two of you."

That's not an SD22 I've seen before -- With H, she will usually lip tremble and go in for a hug, like she's 3. I don't know if she was able to pull herself together and stand up for herself because her BF was there?

H and I had a follow-up talk where he said I don't like SD22, that I'm nicer to SD25. I responded that I have compassion for all of his kids, and understand the trauma they've been through better than most. And that we are working toward a healthy family structure where we focus on what's best for everyone, not just one person. I said that SD25 is very considerate, she will say, "Is it ok for BF to come sometime this summer?" I appreciated that because S17 was having surgery and didn't want an extra body in the house while my stress levels were elevated. She is thoughtful about food that's in the house, replaces things she broke, always asks permission and says thank you.

My T keeps saying to focus on manners, what is respectful, and to get out of this frame of mind that it's about boundaries, which it is except that detracts from the point of getting SD22 to rise to the occasion and learn some interpersonal effectiveness.

I'm so agitated right now   SD22 has knocked on my door twice since I came in here to write this. I can't believe I don't answer these knocks anymore -- it seems so rude! I'm not like this with anyone else in my life.

When I went out to get something to drink, she was right there, wanting to know what if I thought she might not get the job she applied to two days ago. I would love to help her get centered and then I remember no one told me she was coming, no one asked my permission, no one showed that my time matters.

I think H was angry because he wants me to help him carry this load and I cannot do it the way he is comfortable doing it.

Sorry! I'm all over the place. I'm annoyed at myself for finding this stuff so challenging.

[worriedStepmom]

Be nice to yourself.  This stuff is hard and I'm not all that good at it either.  (I asked my H last night if he'd thought about signing up for an app to communicate with his ex, so that way I could send her paperwork and stuff she needs to know and he completely froze.  My tone and words were  conversational but he acted like I'd slapped him.)

If I were you, given that we're a few days out, I'd ask him why he was upset on Sunday and see what he has to say.

[Panda39]

I'm so agitated right now  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) SD22 has knocked on my door twice since I came in here to write this. I can't believe I don't answer these knocks anymore -- it seems so rude! I'm not like this with anyone else in my life.

This isn't rude, it's setting and enforcing a boundary.  Enforcing a boundary that will teach her how to respect someone else's space, but yes it's uncomfortable and I'm hearing discomfort with your DH too. 

This doesn't mean you should change what you are doing but, what I hear is your DH kind of being squeezed between the old/his daughter and the new/you.  Again an uncomfortable place to be, maybe even a conflicted place to be.  Conflicted with doing what's easy versus doing what is hard/healthy or wanting two people he loves to both be happy.  I used to get particularly conflicted between what I wanted to do and what I thought I should do, and I would blow a gasket because I couldn't make everyone happy ...it's a lot of pressure.  I see his anger/frustration coming from the different pressures he is getting from you and his daughter.

But like I said this doesn't mean you have to change what you are doing, you are a trailblazer for them, and being the trailblazer isn't an easy job...so it will be uncomfortable.  Learning something new after 22 years of the same dynamic will also be hard...so it will be uncomfortable.

To me it's about getting comfortable with the uncomfortable as you make changes and connecting as a couple often.

Panda39

[formflier]

Wow..now I get some insight into the dynamics at play in the relationships.

You were right to stand up for yourself. 

AFTER the job interview I think you should ask your hubby to talk to her about no more asking after BF has left.  She should expect the answer to be no in the future.  If it was me..I would up the ante more and say if he won't talk to her..you will.  (I'm a bit forward on things like that)

kells76, 

H and I had a follow-up talk where he said I don't like SD22, that I'm nicer to SD25. I responded that I have compassion for all of his kids, and understand the trauma they've been through better than most. 

OK...ugg..double and triple ugg. 

This kind of thing really drove me bananas, since I hate mind reading.  Perhaps it's not a big deal to you.

I would suggest a response of..."If you are interested in my feelings about (fill in the blank), please ask."

It appears to me the response was a bit "JADEy".   

OK..all that off my chest.

You are standing up for yourself...solid work.  Also be pragmatic about the job interview.  Her getting a job would be wonderful.  So...make sure you find her, encourage her, tell her you believe in her, then go on about your business.

Drinking more wine on the porch could be called for as well..   

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

My tone and words were  conversational but he acted like I'd slapped him.

Do I ever understand. H goes into a defensive crouch when I so much as say SD22's name.

I see his anger/frustration coming from the different pressures he is getting from you and his daughter.

This. And he can't figure out what he wants. We talked about what it would mean if he put himself first and it's been a revelation that he has no answer. He's never done it, he says. So putting himself first means letting him rescue SD22 and be a doormat.

you are a trailblazer for them, and being the trailblazer isn't an easy job...so it will be uncomfortable. 

Thanks Panda39. I really hate the discomfort  so it's a good reminder that the discomfort is connected to change for the better.[/quote]

I would up the ante more and say if he won't talk to her..you will. 

H and I are both assertive in other parts of our lives. We seem to be a bit hobbled when it comes to SD22. I will talk to her and it will probably take time to find the right moment for me. I also have an urge to record the conversation because I know it will be twisted out of shape and SD22 will try to triangulate H.

I'm in this uncomfortable place where my need for change is incremental, driven by love for H and wanting to slow walk this new dynamic, and impatience that the issues seem so trivial and should be easy to solve. 

I realize too that I have a part in this. I am so irritated by small things that resentment has built up and there's enough that I can barely have a one-on-one conversation with SD22 without feeling outsized emotion.

Often I flee the house when it's going to be SD22 and I together, alone. I am trying to stop this. Yesterday I arranged tasks to do around the house so I was always moving.  Standing still seems to make me a sitting duck.

SD22 followed me everywhere I went, talking nonstop about a situation with the job interview that I couldn't follow, it was so self-absorbed I didn't even understand the problem and didn't dare ask. I knew she had already talked to H, her BF, her aunt, and I'm sure others. From what I could gather it was a nothingburger. I just kept saying, "Huh, and Oh? and Hmm. What advice have others given you? Sounds good. I guess so, I don't know enough about how that works." But I'm so irritated with built up resentment I can't get centered and say what I would recommend someone else say 

I would suggest a response of..."If you are interested in my feelings about (fill in the blank), please ask."

That's a good suggestion. In the moment I felt guilty because I don't find SD22 likable. SD25 is someone I would like regardless. Prime breeding ground for a JADE.

My T's suggestion is to focus on functional aspects of SD22's manners (likability) so that she can improve, and in the process, get H on board to work with me on some of these limits -- he knows she has interpersonal problems. Like pointing out what H can do to help SD22 be a better house guest.

I can't shake this feeling that SD22 enjoys when H tells her, "Hey, do something nice for LnL" because it means she got under my skin. I'm really trying to ignore this competitive dynamic and get to the heart of these minor resentments. I keep thinking I have to rise above this stuff and now I'm feeling so irritated I can barely be in the same room with SD22.

[formflier]

There are some other threads where parenting is being discussed.  As a Dad to 8...I have some opinions. 

What you guys are attempting to do with SD22, would be more appropriately "taught" when she is a toddler.  One of the things parents that don't help their kids become "likable" or "have manners" sentence their kids to is a lifetime of "mean faces".

You are a prime example of this.  (please don't take that as negative).  I've yet to find anything to pick at you on for your reaction to SD22's "manners" or lack thereof.  You state you know you have to rise about it and are having a hard time doing that...because it is hard...and because you know the problem isn't being solved...it's being enabled

The monster is being fed.

Now...pragmatism is required here.  Don't talk to her right before the interview.  Encourage her and cross your fingers.

But...ugg..here comes the "judgmental" part of me (ESTJ)

Do you want to "treat" the symptom...or do you want to work on the "root"?

Where is the root?  It's ok..it's us.  You can say it here.

Circling around.  SD22 is not likable.  Don't feel guilty for a normal reaction. 

      Free hugs here anytime!

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

Do you want to "treat" the symptom...or do you want to work on the "root"?

Where is the root?  It's ok..it's us.  You can say it here.

Circling around.  SD22 is not likable.  Don't feel guilty for a normal reaction. 

This seems to be what your therapist has hit on as well.  If the family focuses on SD22's behaviors that are rude/inconsiderate/etc rather than your reactions to them, it might make it more likely that those behaviors will change, and it might make your husband less defensive.

Are there ways that you and SD22 can connect that don't require you to be her personal sounding board?   The resentment can be overpowering, and sometimes it's necessary to find a way to insert some good feelings in there, too.

Also, would it be appropriate for you or H to talk to SD22's boyfriend about his atrocious manners? It's isn't just SD22 who is dropping the ball here - he is assuming that he will always be welcome at your home without ever asking you, and without even providing notice.  (Unless he is doing that, and SD22 is not passing on the information.)  If expectations need to be reset, they need to be reset with both of them.

[GaGrl]

I will go back to something I brought up a whole back. SD22 does not consider herself a "houseguest." To her, she is simply "home for a few days. " So she acts as she would if she were hanging in her own home, with all the dynamics of a relationship with her dad that pre-date LnL. Not before the interview, but at some time soon, she needs to be clear that she is a houseguest and no longer a resident, with expectations that come with being a proper houseguest.

I agree that manners need to be addressed. If not, this will continue in all social situations and relationships that she enters.

How aware and savvy is the BF? Explaining the houseguest expectations to him may help tremendously. It would at least provide one more gate to SD22 in that he would ask -- have you cleared this visit with your dad AND LnL yet?

[formflier]

  " So she acts as she would if she were hanging in her own home, with all the dynamics of a relationship with her dad that pre-date LnL. 

This is where I was going with "finding the root".

The dynamics she is used to produced...?

Therefore we should keep them the same or make...?  Nuanced changes? or massive changes?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

SD22 followed me everywhere I went, talking nonstop about a situation with the job interview that I couldn't follow, it was so self-absorbed I didn't even understand the problem and didn't dare ask. I knew she had already talked to H, her BF, her aunt, and I'm sure others. From what I could gather it was a nothingburger. I just kept saying, "Huh, and Oh? and Hmm. What advice have others given you? Sounds good. I guess so, I don't know enough about how that works." But I'm so irritated with built up resentment I can't get centered and say what I would recommend someone else say 

This is from way out in left field, but maybe, just maybe, there's something here to try...

Back before my separation and divorce, before she was trying to make herself convinced she could allege child abuse to shut out the last outsider in her "Me and my preschooler against the world" mindset, back before... I'm pretty sure when she was on some of her rants and rages that I tried hugging and redirecting her.  Didn't work, of course.  Even by that time she was too far down that rage path and couldn't consistently listen.

But I don't see conflict from SD22.  She sounds more of the waif type.  Could a hug or something equivalent help redirect her into your suggestions for more productive directions?  "SD {hug} I see you're focused on ____ but I can't help you much there, so now is a good time to refocus on things for which I can contribute, how about we ____?"  True, hugs and such may not always work or stop future situations, if it works then this may need to be part of your repertoire (collection) of tools to be kept at hand as needed.

[livednlearned]

and because you know the problem isn't being solved...it's being enabled

The problem is definitely being enabled. I'm trying to figure out my part of the enabling piece. How to have limits in a situation where there are two people, making 3 in the drama triangle. It's like trying to collect marbles when people keep emptying the jar.

Encourage her and cross your fingers.

I'm not centered enough to even encourage her, I hate to say. I have validated her so much in the past that my T thinks it's had a negative effect, sending the message that I am a sucker. SD22 is so good at eliciting the emotions she wants from people, she is likely presenting warped situations to us and we encourage her, support her, give her advice, reassure her. I don't know if it's possible for validation to "feed the monster," that's what it feels like could be happening. We don't know for sure because we only hear bits and pieces.

Do you want to "treat" the symptom...or do you want to work on the "root"?

I want to work on the root and to be candid I am so irritated right now that dealing with the symptoms is bugging me. 

would it be appropriate for you or H to talk to SD22's boyfriend about his atrocious manners?

BF25 has Asperger's so he looks to SD22 for help on social situations. Hold the laughter.

And we have to take some responsibility, too. I started to make a separate meal for BF because he does not eat vegetables (S17 trends this way, too). So the day BF arrived here unexpected, what did H do? He made him a separate meal for dinner.

I will go back to something I brought up a whole back. SD22 does not consider herself a "houseguest."

Sigh. You're so right.

I guess the best way to describe what I'm trying to do is get H to see it this way. He intervenes because he believes that SD22 being a houseguest will make her feel abandoned.

How aware and savvy is the BF? Explaining the houseguest expectations to him may help tremendously. It would at least provide one more gate to SD22 in that he would ask -- have you cleared this visit with your dad AND LnL yet?

That's a good idea. If he is anything like S17, he will welcome the concrete directions because then he doesn't have to second guess.

I don't see conflict from SD22.  She sounds more of the waif type.  Could a hug or something equivalent help redirect her into your suggestions for more productive directions?

I wish I could do this. I was doing this in the beginning. Somewhere along the line I over validated her and in her mind became a sucker. She started to patronize me in my own home. It's hard to describe ... and if I become aloof, she creates a crisis, her lip trembles, she wants a hug. And the hugging, my god. It is constant between H and SD22. If I come home, SD22 will get up cross the room and hug her dad. It's a "he's mine" move.

When she goes in for a hug, I sometimes have to leave the room.

I'm regressing. My son's medical situation is jacking up my stress and I'm having a harder time with this stuff.

This morning SD22 sat outside my office door and lingered. You would think I was being attacked by lions the way my nervous system responded.

[formflier]

I wonder if there is overthinking or "overtooling" going on. 

All this talk about too much validation, triangles...etc etc.

Toss all of that out the window.  It's "pep talk time".  A one way pep talk.

Perhaps something like this.

Walk up and ask her a specific question.  (ok..so an almost one way pep talk) 

Something like.."Tell me about the the skillset you will emphasize most in your interviews"

Listen for a minute...two at the tops.  Look at her..a pat on the arm

"SD22..I want you to listen to me.  You're going to do great.  Focus on that skill you just talked about.  listen to the questions and find a way to work that skill into an answer if possible.  You've got this."

Perhaps another pat (not a hug..you are in charge)...exit.  Go do you own thing.

Let her pick up her jaw...or do whatever she needs.

FF

[livednlearned]

"You got this" is my main phrase with her -- I'm her biggest champion when it comes to recognizing her mature behaviors.

I think this is a step parent thing. I have everything I need to address the manners/limits directly with SD22.

Doing so creates conflict between me and H.

I repeated to H last night, "If it's easier for you, I can tell SD22 that there's a lot going on in July with our travel schedules and SD25 studying for boards. That way she can make plans in advance so she isn't here when you're away and SD25 is slammed."

It's like what worriedStepmom describes -- you would think I slapped him. He said, "I'll share our schedule with her and tell her when I won't be here."

Me: "There are three weeks blocked out in July where she cannot come for a visit. That includes SD25's two weeks before boards."

H: "I think she'll be fine here if she knows SD25 is busy, and I'll tell her she's on her own for dinner when I'm not here that week."

I feel like I have to start saying things directly to SD22. It's going to cause conflict in my marriage.

[formflier]

It's going to cause conflict in my marriage.

Hmmmm...and there isn't conflict already? 

I'm not seeing this as being an easy transition for your hubby.  It appears he is moving in the right direction, but at a glacial pace.

I'm also a pragmatist and there is part of me saying..."FF..advise her to hold stead and see if she gets a job after a couple interviews.  Once she has a job, the entire dynamic will change.

If after a few interviews there is not even an offer...it will obviously change as well.

What do you think of that analysis?

Best,

FF

[sweetheart]

lnl I have an overwhelmingly strong sense as I read the thread that there is more going on for you, the trigger is very obviously SD22, but the strong negative feelings coming up for you sound extreme for the situation you describe for us.
. For you to be so thrown by all of this, and you do sound really thrown and reeling by the strength of your emotions often indicates a far more complex dynamic. If you had to look elsewhere for a cause, with SD22 as the trigger, where would you look, how far back might the search take you? It might be worth having a look with your T, maybe exploring times when you have felt overwhelmed in similar ways, experiencing similar powerful emotions; even if you come up empty.

GaGrl makes a really insightful observation, in that SD22 is just doing what’s she’s always done, being herself at home. I am in no doubt that she doesn’t really ‘get’ what’s wrong. I don’t mean that her behaviour isn’t tricky, but this is who she is, always has been. The origins of her issues lie with her parents who have and continue to permit her to behave as she does.
Is it possible that your h doesn’t have that much of an issue with his daughter’s behaviour, and really just hears your challenges as you ‘not liking her’, and as unnecessary conflict?
Do you like SD22?

For me there is an absence of open, direct unambiguous communication between you all, the words in the house sound stifled, stilted and confusing. Is there a palpable atmosphere when you are all together?

[livednlearned]

if you had to look elsewhere for a cause, with SD22 as the trigger, where would you look, how far back might the search take you?

uBPD brother (violent)
BPD ex husband (alcoholic)
narcissistic father

Therapy is why I'm here with this ... I'm working with a somatic experiencing therapist. She sees a pattern in how I respond to interactions with SD22 that look older.

Isn't that true for a lot of us?

Is it possible that your h doesn’t have that much of an issue with his daughter’s behaviour, and really just hears your challenges as you ‘not liking her’, and as unnecessary conflict?

H has a uBPD ex wife, dBPD sister. SD22 is quiet BPD.

Liking a child who suffers from BPD is not a word choice I would use. 

Do you like SD22?

I have compassion for SD22. I don't like her disorder. I don't like pretending that she is ok.

For me there is an absence of open, direct unambiguous communication between you all, the words in the house sound stifled, stilted and confusing. Is there a palpable atmosphere when you are all together?

What do you mean by palpable atmosphere?

[livednlearned]

It appears he is moving in the right direction, but at a glacial pace.

Check.

I'm also a pragmatist and there is part of me saying..."FF..advise her to hold stead and see if she gets a job after a couple interviews.  Once she has a job, the entire dynamic will change.

I hope so.

We'll see.

The dynamic that's similar with my FOO is family members are expected to allow a disordered person to be destructive because intense emotions are scary and cannot be tolerated.

She is chronically suicidal. H's denial about this are stunning to me.

Maybe it's a quiet BPD thing. No one is throwing things or name-calling or going in and out of psychosis but the underlying dynamics are the same.

[sweetheart]

Our FOO and past relationships are why most of us are here, but it read in your thread as though there was a disconnect for you with SS22 between what you were saying on an intellectual level and what you have been experiencing emotionally. That's why I asked, it wasn't clear that how you felt might also be linked to past traumas.

Changing the dynamic in your blended family needs as you are acutely aware for your h to be invested in changing his pattern of relating with his daughter. would he consider therapy if he's not in it already? would you both consider seeing a T together to look at how this situation is impacting on your relationship?

By 'palpable' I meant a tense atmosphere that everyone is aware of.

[formflier]

I feel like "Mr Doublespeak"...because on the one hand I'm pushing for more directness...more explicit...

yet I'm also saying continue the "tiptoe thing" (new ff name for it) for a few more days to get through interview(s).  Basically..keep "walking on eggshells"

OK..I feel like I need to back up and clarify a few things.

Does your hubby understand that his actions as a parent (his patterns) have contributed to his daughter being the way she is (part of that "way" is suicidal on some level)

Disclaimer here:  I don't want to dismiss the suicide thing, yet I also don't want to overblow it.  Since in recent history the SI has been "implicit"..vice "explicit".  Lots of assuming about what "having those feelings again" means.

That really sums up something many posters are trying to put into words/express in different ways.

The communication patters are implicit, assumed, understood and most of all deniable.  I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that if asked directly..SD22 would deny her "feelings" comments were SI or were somehow taken out of context.

Anyway..let's get back to clarity.

1.  Does your hubby understand his role in this. 
2.  Have you had a clear conversation with your hubby about how you see his role.  (clear..not suggestive)

When is the interview again?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I'll try to simplify this.

It's similar to what kells76 was discussing in another thread, about how it isn't the content of the conflict so much as the underlying structure of the conflict. The pattern of relating in the family.

Being a step parent is a complicating factor.

It's the piece that I can't quite get my hands around.

I'm posting on this board because of the step parenting dynamic.

The current and past context:

I have created a validating environment for SD22, and H.
I do not try to fix or rescue or save SD22, or H.
I am really good at self care when it comes to SD22.
I am (recently) decent at making my limits (re: SD22) with H clear

Then in T, I'm encouraged to wake the family up about SD22's SI and her troubling behaviors, even though to me they are more *quiet* than what I've experienced directly in FOO and my previous marriage. So my tolerance levels are high ... like a lot of people here, I would assume. T is saying, This is the same underlying family pattern (violent family) where we acknowledge that things are not ok then pretend they are because pretending creates the illusion that we have control.

I've had two therapists, both have expressed alarm with SD22's behaviors and how the family is responding to her. It's a splash of cold water. I'm being encouraged by T to do the splashing. I've started.

It's the opposite of what I want to do.

It is relatively thankless and goes against what I thought was my role as a step parent. I feel like I'm being asked to rescue fix and save.  

I don't know if this is simplifying things or making it more confusing.

The step parenting dynamic has been: Let H and SD22 work things out, I will practice self-care and do my best to apply communication and relationship skills to H as he figures stuff out. I will have limits with SD22 that I express directly with her, gently and consistently. Loads of effort on this last one, to create limits I have control over while validating her experience as I make those changes.

Now it is (with T's encouragement): Wade into the middle and start shining light on things. Be more assertive about SD22's mental health and relationship + communication issues. Be clear about limits with H when it comes to SD22. Be vocal. Be vocal with SD22. Don't allow SD22 to split the family and create communication silos, coach people into open conversation with SD22's emotional safety as the main driver. Keep an eye on her behaviors going underground and look for an escalation in attention-seeking behaviors that may be used clumsily to get the family back into line, a way to control the change.

The SI thing is the key to everything, it can't be dismissed.

My sense of self-preservation says to stay out of this. To abide things, walk on eggshells, get in line with the (blended) family's ways.

My T is saying get in there and get people to pull together. No more letting things slide or SD22 will be in charge of the family and she is in no way shape or form the person to dictate what it means to be a healthy cooperative supportive family.

[formflier]

I'll try to simplify this.

We are kindred souls.  When I try to simplify things..lots of words come out as well.  For me...this post actually does help simplify it because I can walk right along beside you taking inventory of things (just like I would do)

Solid work!

Of course I've got come comments/clarification/judgments.

The pattern of relating in the family.

OK...my ESTJ is really riled up to make comments here, yet I believe the wisest thing is to hand you the ball back.  Can you describe in a couple sentences the "pattern of relating" in your family?  Please..no judgment...fly on the wall stuff.  

Then...

A couple of sentences about how you would like the "pattern of relating" to actually be structured.

Warning:   Be watchful that you don't insert solutions.  Stick to the "pattern of relating" here.

Being a step parent is a complicating factor.

Ah...finally "release the Kraken"  FF ESTJ is on the move.

https://youtu.be/38AYeNGjqg0

You are being far to deferential to your H and SD22 about activities that impact your life in your home.  Yes it's his home as well and perhaps SD22 imagines it to be hers.  The definition of "home" may be different for everyone here (and that's ok)

What's NOT OK is that LnL's definition is consistently last and the person who doesn't pay for the home and that persons BF "rule the roost"

NO...

Just NO.

LNL...you need to "find your inner Kraken".  

It's the piece that I can't quite get my hands around.

I'm posting on this board because of the step parenting dynamic.

Before you are a step parent...you are the steward of LnL.  That includes where LnL lives and the environment that helps LnL be the best person she can be.  

Do not "rank" being a good step parent over taking care of LnL.

Priority 1  Take care of LnL
Priority 2  Take care of LnL marriage relationship
Priority 3  Take care of LnL child
Priority 4  Take care of LnL step child

I'm going to claim that if all involved rigorously applied this and inserted their own name for LnL...life would be so much better.

What do you think?

I have created a validating environment for SD22, and H.

There are some things that you likely validated that are perhaps invalid or weren't the best to validate.  

There is major dysfunction and pretending going on.  Most likely less validation and more clarity.  Perhaps validation "and also" clarity, perhaps in the form of SET.  

How much "t" in set is there in your communications?

I do not try to fix or rescue or save SD22, or H.

I've not focused on this part of the story, although I would say that if there really is chronic SI..shouldn't that get "fixed"?  Or at least you should try.

Clarity:  I don't know enough to have an opinion if there really is chronic SI.  At this point I'm accepting that at face value.

I am really good at self care when it comes to SD22.

I agree.  

I might also argue that self care involves being more assertive about your home and needs...ranking taking care of needs.

I am (recently) decent at making my limits (re: SD22) with H clear

Yes...and hubby is reacting..expressing...something.

It's undeniable a pattern is changing here.  

Do you think you are halfway to where you want to be?  1/3 of the way?  almost there? (rank your progress)

Then in T, I'm encouraged to wake the family up about SD22's SI and her troubling behaviors

This is clear and are you trying to wake people up by speaking softly at the door...gently tossing covers back...allowing multiple snoozes...or are you making sure they wake up and pay attention?

I've had two therapists, both have expressed alarm with SD22's behaviors and how the family is responding to her. It's a splash of cold water. I'm being encouraged by T to do the splashing. I've started.

I'm seeing "spritzing"..."sprinkling".  It would seem to me that your Ts want you to climb up on the high dive and do a massive jack knife...making sure the splash sprays everyone who hadn't intended to get wet that day.

Note:  I think you need to directly ask your T(s) how they think you are doing "splashing" and if you need to dial it up...or down.

It's the opposite of what I want to do.

Here is where we tend to be opposites.  My T is usually looking for a leash to put on me (she'd blow the whistle and get me out of your pool because of too much "splashing")

That's ok...I'm generally thoughtful about "dialing back" my responses.

My guess is you are usually thoughtful about "dialing up" your responses.  Am I right?

It is relatively thankless and goes against what I thought was my role as a step parent. I feel like I'm being asked to rescue fix and save.  

Not really...I see them asking you to "pretend".  

What if you were like a big light that you put on a pole outside your house.  You can get those from the electric company..flat fee every month.

They "judge" everyone the same.  You come close to LnL...the light will be there.  No pretending...no shadows.

That's very different than "rescue"

I don't know if this is simplifying things or making it more confusing.

These stories (our stories) aren't simple.  They are NOT succinct.

This post helped "clarify" quite a bit.

  Wade into the middle and start shining light on things.

I like your T!

 

The SI thing is the key to everything, it can't be dismissed.

Agreed and if your T is alarmed...I'm alarmed.  Is "alarm" being communicated regularly to your hubby and SD22?

My sense of self-preservation says to stay out of this. To abide things, walk on eggshells, get in line with the (blended) family's ways.

Sometimes when you go for a massive jacknife off the high dive...you end up with some red skin and you are sore for a bit.

Self preservation and high dives don't really go together.  

What was it your T wanted you to do again?  

https://youtu.be/87bNM8UCSgE

Best video I could find on short notice

My T is saying get in there and get people to pull together. No more letting things slide or SD22 will be in charge of the family and she is in no way shape or form the person to dictate what it means to be a healthy cooperative supportive family.

Look at what I did a strike through on.  Please rewrite that.  No more pretending.

Also...I asked before if you wanted to treat the symptoms..or the root.  I didn't get clarity back.  

No more pretending.  Where is the root?

Awesome thread..lots of clarity.  Keep it up.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

Can you describe in a couple sentences the "pattern of relating" in your family?

It's a competitive family structure. This is a term Loebel describes in Having a BPD Daughter. My take on what he's describing: the family caters to the needs of the most neediest, demanding family member. Everyone else competes for scraps. One person benefits at the expense of others.

Versus a cooperative family structure, where the needs of each member of the family are considered, and people cooperate as a unit because the wellness of the family unit is the priority. Everyone is considered.

you need to "find your inner Kraken".

This pretty much sums up my therapy.

Priority 1  Take care of LnL
Priority 2  Take care of LnL marriage relationship
Priority 3  Take care of LnL child
Priority 4  Take care of LnL step child

What is stumping me is how to do this in practice given our family dynamics. Taking care of LnL can be hanging back, letting the family sort themselves out (step parent dynamic).  

There are some things that you likely validated that are perhaps invalid or weren't the best to validate.

Agreed. It's a good point to make.

It wasn't that I validated her too much. I validated the invalid. And yes, too much S and E and not enough T.  

if there really is chronic SI..shouldn't that get "fixed"?

SD22's suicidal ideation is what changed the dynamic -- my dynamic in the family. With a kick in the pants from my T. Her instructions: say it out loud to H and make sure he hears it: "SD22 is chronically suicidal. What are we going to do about it? Here are some things I've thought about..."

We now talk about this openly, including with SD25 who has been the recipient of more open SI from SD22.

I don't know enough to have an opinion if there really is chronic SI.

Her psychiatrist has told H that SD22 is chronically suicidal. SD22's therapist has said she calls the suicide hotline regularly, as is appropriate. SD22 tells SD25 she doesn't want to live, is having those thoughts again, has nothing to live for. She cannot tolerate being alone. One time she tried to open the door of my moving car as I backed out of the driveway. Scared the living daylights out of me. I believe she was suicidal that moment and terrified to be alone.

SD22 is diagnosed bipolar with psychotic depression. She's medicated and the medications don't seem to be touching the emotional instability. Her current psychiatrist wants to reconsider her dx.

Do you think you are halfway to where you want to be?  1/3 of the way?

Far enough in to realize that there is a cost. I speak directly to H about SD22 being rude and I am back in an openly turbulent home environment.

Been there, done that, have all the souvenirs. It's true that the family dynamic contributed to the turmoil, that others are responsible. It also is true that I was the one peeling back the cover. So it does feel like there's a choice -- I can hang back and things are quietly nutty or I step forward and poke the bear.

My guess is you are usually thoughtful about "dialing up" your responses.  Am I right?

I lead from behind, yes. I used to lead ocean kayak trips and I liked to tell people where we were going and how we were going to get there, then hang back and keep on eye on people. To keep people close I would give them a rule of thumb to gauge how far they could go before they were putting themselves and the group at risk.

You come close to LnL...the light will be there.  No pretending...no shadows.

What are the words that shine the light? I'm struggling with two things. One, I don't want to be the leader of H's kids, the step parenting dynamic. I seem to have waded into that role and it looks like I'm reluctantly going forward.

The other thing I'm struggling with is what it means to have a pool of light. Clearly that can throw H into a whirlpool.

Is "alarm" being communicated regularly to your hubby and SD22?

I have taken the approach to communicate directly with H and with SD25. I leave the direct communication with SD22 to H.

I asked before if you wanted to treat the symptoms..or the root.  I didn't get clarity back.

This ties into something H said last night. We talked about SD22. He said, "I have to focus on tactics because I'm not smart enough for strategy when it comes to her."

Big admission from H. By smart, he means skilled -- he's not a T.

I'm not either.

I mentioned some tactical things, and did he feel they aligned with his sense of things. When SD22 is anxious she blows up everyone's phone and spins into a drama of urgent proportions that tire people out and push them away. H and I agreed it is "same page" tactic to say: "Have you had a chance to ask anyone else for advice? I would stick to one person's advice and go with it. See what happens."

Or: "Your dad mentioned a great idea -- he gave you a book to journal when you feel anxious about something. He said, "If it isn't an emergency that requires 911, write it in the book and leave it for 24 hours and see how you feel after giving it a chance to rest."

We did make some headway about another thing. H wants to ask SD22's permission to see her T together under the auspices of H learning better ways to support SD22 as she transitions to adulthood. I think that gives SD22 too much power. I suggested he give SD22 a choice: they can go together, or he will see T on his own. SD22 and T can come up with ground rules so that SD22 understands that this is a session for H, not a session about SD22.

I'm more comfortable leading from behind like that. Spritzing.

The master jack knife in a step parenting dynamic is a big move.

It could empty the pool.  

[worriedStepmom]

formflier, you rock.

Priority 1  Take care of LnL
Priority 2  Take care of LnL marriage relationship
Priority 3  Take care of LnL child
Priority 4  Take care of LnL step child

I'm going to claim that if all involved rigorously applied this and inserted their own name for LnL...life would be so much better.

The great stepparent dilemma is always wondering whether the marriage is a higher priority than the spouse's child.  The stepparent juggle is to come close to but not cross the line, so their spouse isn't forced to choose.

This is one of those cases where he's going to have to choose.  And that's scary.

[livednlearned]

The stepparent juggle is to come close to but not cross the line, so their spouse isn't forced to choose.

Exactly.

We had that dynamic big time three summers ago when SD22 came to live with us.

With help from a T, things are shifting to something new (cooperative family structure) that none of us have experienced before. H and I have something cooperative, but it falls apart with SD22. A lot of the skills discussed here serve the cooperative family structure.

When emotional, H tends to view my actions through a "pick her or me" frame. And I'm staying focused on building a cooperative family structure. When he returns to baseline, he can see that.

Wading into those deep waters, I've been (somewhat reluctantly)

1. making sure as a family we are doing our best to keep SD22 safe, and
2. building the foundations for a cooperative family structure.

Both are terrifying to H for different reasons. His fears when it comes to SD22 are palpable and also hard for him to express. It takes a lot of trust in a step dynamic to believe a new spouse (me) cares about the step child (SD22) in the same way, especially when I'm asking him to do things that benefit me because that feeds the "choose me over her" narrative.

Always at the back of my mind is a desire to say, "Pick her, that's how I demonstrate you can trust me."

Then back away and take care of myself.

It goes back to what FF was saying about the diff between rescuing and pretending.

H wants to pretend and I don't.

That is not an easy thing to say to a really good guy who is working hard to keep his mentally ill daughter alive and functioning 

[GaGrl]

When DH and I married, we had four adult children. We went through the transition, and I referred to it as "our new family learning to live together as adults." It was difficult. DH and I did agree that, no matter what, our marriage was a priority, and as long as we were OK as a couple, we could handle whatever came up with the children. And it did - - SD38 is eco-friendly and in a relationship with a man who is alcoholic and narcissistic. S36 is Adult ADD and had social anxiety and depression. None of them currently live with us, but they did in the past.

I know I had to let go of what I thought a "healthy" family looked like. Do you think your husband is holding on to his thoughts of achieving a healthy family, when SD22 is no where near stable right now?

[livednlearned]

Do you think your husband is holding on to his thoughts of achieving a healthy family, when SD22 is no where near stable right now?

It's a good question. I don't know the answer to it.

I don't think he sees that his way of helping SD22 is part of her problem.

I think he sees that I am helping the family, our relationship, and even SD22, to some extent, except that part of him also feels terrified. Everyone is holding their breath about whether SD22 is too emotionally disabled to get and keep a job.

I'm not sure what my role is in shining light on that dynamic.

I think I'm trying to figure out how to toggle between the master jack knife and the spritz of water, what that actually looks like deep in the waters of a blended family with an adult child who has BPD traits and maybe more.

Here's a small example. It's the underlying pattern I'm trying to sort out.

H and I usually head to bed around 9pm when it's just the two of us. We'll watch something on TV before we go to sleep, read, talk, etc. 

When SD22 is here, I notice that H begins this process a little earlier. It's not uncommon for him to start heading to bed around 8pm. I suspect he wants to decompress away from her. SD22 is a fair bit of work and H puts her needs first. Saying he is tired is a polite way to carve out some time for himself.

SD22 will often start texting him as soon as we're in bed. Sometimes she comes to the door and asks if she can come in, or if she can talk to him, even though they spent the day together or went for a walk a half hour earlier. She also does this intense hugging thing with H that can go on a long time.

Every now and then she will manage to keep H occupied with anxieties or fears she has for an hour or so.

I feel for her -- she cannot abide being alone and the one person who says yes to practically every need she is about to go to bed. With me.

So SD22 feels competitive in that moment -- I get to be with H.

For me, I feel the shadowy part of the competition (FOO) and I also want to move toward this cooperative family structure. In that exact moment, I'm not sure what the spritz of water or splash or master jack knife means.

H will sometimes say, "SD22 is worried about xyz, so I had to talk to her and listen for an hour." My hunch is that SD22 found something that hooked H and kept him with her so she wasn't alone. In the past, I would nod, say uh huh then move the focus toward our time together.

My T is saying, "Shine a light on what is happening. No need to make it a long conversation, but help him see what SD22 is doing."

She suggested I say, "SD22 is afraid to be alone. She likes to give you a problem to solve right before bed."

What I've been doing is skipping the nightly walk when SD22 is here and going into the bedroom and winding down for bed. Watching something, reading, hanging out with the dog. It's self-care and I'm reasonable content to handle my stuff with SD22 by carving out this alone time. I can do it this way for a long time.

T's suggestion is (I think) what FF is suggesting, to be a pole of light. If you come close to me, there won't be shadows.

I know I'm going in circles  this is all helping me get things clearer in my head. I'm waffling. I like focusing on the things I have control over and not sticking my head into things I can't control -- I've done the latter and it ended really really badly.

I'm so reluctant right now. I wish the priority list was as clear in practice as it is on the page.

[GaGrl]

OK, I see the manipulation. And my first reaction is that there is no one in our household who would even think about knocking on our bedroom door after we've shut it for the night -- my mother of any of our visiting adult children -- unless it were truly an emergency.

That SD22 does this is disruptive of your private time and your marriage. It's really dysfunctional family behavior.

That your husband allows this and participates interferes in her ability to develop tolerance and the ability to self-soothe.

A tactic would be for your husband to say, "DD22, LnL and I are going to bed in a few minutes. Do you need to talk about anything before we close the door? I have about 20 minutes." And then he can practice holding that boundary.  She thinks this is OK because no one shines the light.

A strategy would be to find out from her T which tactics will address the self -soothing. Although the SI may need to be the first strategy to be addressed.

If she doesn't get a job, and her lease is up where she went to school...is there a tentative plan? My bet is that she will expect to move in with you.