Weighing up breakup, confused...is this just pure manipulation?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is my first post but I've used this fantastic resource for quite a while, there's a lot going on so I apologise that it's a long message!

To summarise my relationship, I've been with my uBPDgf for about 2.5 years. When we do get on, it's amazing. She's smart, funny, can be incredibly considerate and kind, she's a brilliant artist and I think she's absolutely gorgeous! It's been a rollercoaster from the start; I was utterly besotted, ignored red flags due to sheer denial and my inexperience of healthy relationship interactions and thought she was the most amazing, wonderful person. Whenever she was invaliding, cruel or got upset at the smallest provocations I simply assumed it was my fault and I needed to be a better partner.  Fast-forward to about 3 months in and several of her friends and family had hinted there may be something underlying, I was also becoming less blinkered because I couldn't deny that some behaviour was extreme (e.g. breaking up because I disagreed with her and agreed with one of her family members about which food had the most carbs). I suspected she may be bipolar but it didn't seem quite right, I have a family member who is bipolar and I thought their behaviour was not quite the same. Some more research and I came across BPD and...voila! To me, she exhibits 8 of the 9 criteria and reading about BPD, lurking on this forum and others and reading Stop Walking on Eggshells and I hate you, don't leave me! has me utterly convinced, though of course I can't formally diagnose her. She definitely has some waif qualities but with a large helping of witch and hermit thrown in there for good measure!

Over the past 6 months I've been trying to establish some healthy boundaries and working on my communication by trying not to JADE and to not be invalidating (I used to do a lot of this unfortunately), I've also used SET and DEARMAN whenever possible. She's responded well to some of it but pushed hard against boundary setting. A huge area of conflict throughout the relationship is my having at least 7 hours sleep. She's a night owl and often stays up very late drinking. Alcohol is her main comfort when she feels overwhelmed. Whenever I go to bed, she's upset and is often passive-aggressive. She can't understand why I don't stay up ridiculously late like I did at the start of the relationship. She often tries to initiate sex right around my bedtime or wakes me up in the middle of the night to initiate sex and have a 2-hour drive to work. I made this my first boundary; I go to bed when I'm tired and if we are out on a work night I make sure I head home in time to get 7 hours sleep. This hasn't gone down well with her, even using DEARMAN, especially when I have to (regretfully) decline sex as it makes her feel rejected. She will then usually punish me with a day of two of silent treatment, withholding intimacy or hyper-criticism. There have been other boundaries I have maintained such as refusal to accept any more physical abuse, leaving the room when she rages and politely closing down circular arguments. She describes me now as cold and much less caring than I used to be.

Over the course of the relationship she's broken up with me many, many times. The cruel and hateful things she said during these times will stay with me forever. At first, I used to be absolutely destroyed and wasn't fit to go to work and begged and begged her to take me back (even though I knew, logically, the reason for the breakup was usually something small and trivial) but as things went on I realised that I was caught in a destructive cycle and stopped this behaviour. Now I just calmly say "if that's what you think is best, I wouldn't have chosen to end the relationship but I respect that you need to". Her breakups are usually accompanied by long periods of silent treatment, self-pitying Facebook memes, taking part in activities she knows upsets me (using Class-A drugs is an example) and raging and blaming. The last time she broke up with me I gave no resistance because I felt exhausted and felt like I couldn't continue the cycle any more. This breakup lasted for two months and for almost three weeks of this she gave me the silent treatment. I truly believed that this time it was all over. Due to our financial and family circumstances I can only leave the house for a few days at a time until we can end the lease on this property in August so we were living together throughout most of this.

The sheer length of time she left us broken up gave me a lot of time to think, to put myself first and do things like go for walks and see friends and family. It was an oasis of calm for me even though she was still stomping around the house and occasionally waking me up in the middle of the night drunk and shouting bizarre, paranoid accusations at me. After 2 months I decided to stay at a friend's house for the weekend and out of respect for my then ex-partner I told her I would be going away and not to worry if I wasn't home. On that Friday I was at work and began receiving some worrying texts from her that included vague threats of self harm and that my going away made her feel like she wanted to die. It was clear to me that she was trying to manipulate me into cancelling my plans and staying home but she also has a history of self harm and suicide attempts and I'd had to call the police a few months ago. I stopped home on the way to my friends house to do a welfare check on her and to reassure her that she'd be OK and I would be back on Sunday evening. She promised she wasn't going to hurt herself so I left. All the way to my friends house (a 4 hour drive) she blew up my phone with text messages saying things like "I can't believe you left me" and "I need you, come home" and these continued all evening and all night until about 2 am whereupon she confessed that she didn't want to break up with me and was sorry. She claimed that she only broke up with me because it hurts her to hurt me...a sort of self harm and that she knows she pushes me away because she feels that she doesn't deserve me and experiences uncontrollable anger that causes her to lash out at those closest to her. I was pretty furious about this but also a little hopeful at her sudden insight. I'd been making plans, saving up a deposit for a house, planned to move closer to work and had signed up to do a long-term course at work. These were all plans that I'd pushed aside during our relationship because they were incompatible with the plans we'd made together but as she'd ended the relationship, for good this time, I'd started to put them all in motion. I'd even sold and given away a load of my stuff and most of my things are packed in boxes! Before she broke up with me our plans had been to stay in this house until she finished her degree in June and then for her to pick a Masters degree and we'd move to wherever in the country that was and I'd find a job there and be the main financial support. She's been able to apply for a Masters degree since before Christmas and hadn't even picked one by June. This left me in a very difficult position as it left almost no time for me to find another job before September. I agreed to give things another go but told her that I needed the relationship to be different, that I needed to be able to have "me" time and 7 hours sleep and now that her university degree is over I wanted to stick with my plans to move closer to my work as the commute is exhausting me and there is the perfect Masters degree for her at the university there. She resisted this...hard. She didn't want to move to that city, how can I be so selfish? I'd promised her that I'd go with her wherever she wanted to go! Eventually she left me a note saying that she would move with me and put my needs and wants above her own and that maybe, one day, I'd do the same for her.

We tried to make things work for a month. The first two weeks were great, she listened to me and I listened to her. We were respectful of each other's needs and I continued with my boundaries of 7 hours sleep etc. One Friday I came home from work feeling really ill, I had a fever, ached all over, shaking, terrible headache. I went up to bed, took some painkillers and told her I felt ill and was going to bed early to try and sleep it off. She came up to bed much later, about 2 am, and woke me up, first by stroking my leg and then when I continued to (pretend) sleep, started prodding and tickling me to wake me up. She wanted sex. It didn't matter to her that I was ill or that I was fast asleep. I groggily said something along the lines of "I'm sorry babe, I'm really not well and need sleep" and she huffily got in bed and muttered that I only wanted it when it suited my schedule (this is a common refrain from her). The next morning I felt wiped out but a bit better, I was irritated by the events of the previous night and the fact that for the rest of the morning she gave me the cold shoulder and made comments like "well I have to try and make myself feel good because you don't care" when I said her makeup looked nice. It went downhill from there really, over the next two weeks it felt much like the same old cycle. She was unhappy when I went to bed, she made snide, cutting remarks, withheld affection and told me that I didn't make her feel happy, that I was cold and didn't care about her and she began to behave in her usual, entitled way by no longer doing her share of the household chores, asking me for a lift and then leaving me waiting in my car for ages and demanding that I do menial tasks like shred her bank statements for her.

I reached rock bottom. I thought about how it had been when we were broken up and I thought about how all her new self-insight and change was so fleeting. I highly doubted that she would ever seek the help she needs or even admit she has problems. I couldn't bear for things to go back to the way they were, so, after a month of trying, I told her that I didn't think the relationship was working, that I thought we should separate, that I love her and care about her (I do, enormously) but I am not happy with the relationship and that I don't see any prospect of it improving. Initially she said she agreed and then, once it sank in, she seemed shocked. She said that she thought things had been much better, that we were just having a blip and she couldn't believe I could be so cruel and heartless. I went downstairs to try and sleep on the sofa bed...she followed and said that she just needed to be near me. She sat and stared at me looking so sorrowful and hurt that I felt like my heart was being ripped out. After about an hour of silent staring she asked if it was my final decision. I said, yes, I'd put a lot of thought into it and it wasn't something I was doing lightly or as a punishment. That I loved her and wanted the best for her but that I couldn't continue in a relationship that I thought was damaging and hurtful. She went upstairs and I found her writing a suicide note. She said if I wouldn't be in a relationship with her then she didn't want to live. I told her that if I thought she was going to hurt herself that I would call the police like last time. She said she wouldn't but then half an hour later I caught her attempting to overdose on my medication. I called an ambulance and we ended up in A&E for the night. The mental health crisis team spoke to her for a couple of hours and then brought me in. They asked me what I thought and I said that I felt as though I was being given an impossible choice - stay in the relationship or she would end her life. They asked her what she thought and she agreed that without the relationship she had no reason to live. They seemed unhappy at this and basically asked me if I'd be home to keep an eye on her if they discharged her. I said I would and then they said to her that they feel strongly she needs counselling. Then they said that they thought DBT would be the best therapy for her but unfortunately they were unable to offer it in our area and handed her some self-help DBT worksheets instead. They explained to her that she needs to learn how to regulate her emotions better, that she needs to learn how to self soothe, to question herself when her feelings might not be facts and to practice radical acceptance. I sat there feeling a mixture of relief and anger. To me it seemed obvious that they recognised she may have BPD but that they knew that they couldn't offer her any effective treatment. Instead they suggested she try CBT as they could offer that and gave her a prescription of antidepressants. I offered to pay for her to see a DBT therapist privately and have found two locally(ish) that specialise in BPD. She said she would seriously consider it but was reluctant to take my money. I haven't mentioned BPD to her, I've just spoken about DBT as that's all the mental health team spoke about at the hospital.

For the next two days I felt like she nagged at me and wore me down. I was so exhausted and shell-shocked from it all that I barely used the communication tools. The fact that she was willing to try counselling was huge to me but I'm really ambivalent about trying this relationship again. I explained to her that I felt that I couldn't risk any further hurt to either of us by rushing into the relationship and that I needed time to think, rest, recover and work on myself. I also suggested that she would benefit from the time to focus on herself too. I suggested we take a break of few weeks, maybe a couple of months just to support each other outside of relationship pressures and try and work on our separate issues before re-engaging the relationship with a view to using couples counselling as we reconnected. She was not happy with that and instead yesterday gave me a 48-hour deadline to decide whether I want a relationship with her or not because she needs to be able to plan her life.

From what she's saying it sounds like she can't take the emotional stress of the uncertainty. Even though she wouldn't start her MSc until late September and we don't have to leave this house until late August her total inability to self-soothe means that she simply cannot handle any uncertainty. I feel that she's totally disregarding my need for rest, time and space. I even asked her if she would compromise as I was willing to shorten my time span and meet her in the middle say, 2 to 3 weeks perhaps so that I can make a decision calmly and without feeling under immense pressure. I know that my emotions are all over the place right now. I've had hardly any sleep all week and keep having meltdowns at work and am being uncharacteristically angry, defensive and childish whenever I get into discussions with my partner. I know all of this is because I'm at my limit, I need a break and can't make a reasoned decision in this state. I'm tempted to relent and agree to try again with the relationship but I am really wary because of our fragile emotional states and if things go badly it's going to be really, really bad. On the other hand, if I break off the relationship I'm scared of what she'll do and I'm scared I'll regret ending it when we could have reached a turning point (even though I know DBT is hard work and might take years or she might not even engage with it). The only other option that I see is to basically disregard her 48 hour deadline. She says if I don't give her an answer she'll assume it's a no and move on but is this all just a manipulative power play on her part? Do I roll the dice and hope that her charming instinct kicks in and I can have a couple of weeks R&R before she decides that she'll consider a short separation after all? Option 3 seems repellent to me, I hate that I could even consider something so manipulative but there it is!

Has anyone found themselves in similar situations? Do you have any wisdom to share? I wish I'd posted on here sooner, before things reached such a crisis point!

[G1B8oN]

This is my first post but I've used this fantastic resource for quite a while, there's a lot going on so I apologise that it's a long message!

To summarise my relationship, I've been with my uBPDgf for about 2.5 years. When we do get on, it's amazing. She's smart, funny, can be incredibly considerate and kind, she's a brilliant artist and I think she's absolutely gorgeous! It's been a rollercoaster from the start; I was utterly besotted, ignored red flags due to sheer denial and my inexperience of healthy relationship interactions and thought she was the most amazing, wonderful person. Whenever she was invaliding, cruel or got upset at the smallest provocations I simply assumed it was my fault and I needed to be a better partner.  Fast-forward to about 3 months in and several of her friends and family had hinted there may be something underlying, I was also becoming less blinkered because I couldn't deny that some behaviour was extreme (e.g. breaking up because I disagreed with her and agreed with one of her family members about which food had the most carbs). I suspected she may be bipolar but it didn't seem quite right, I have a family member who is bipolar and I thought their behaviour was not quite the same. Some more research and I came across BPD and...voila! To me, she exhibits 8 of the 9 criteria and reading about BPD, lurking on this forum and others and reading Stop Walking on Eggshells and I hate you, don't leave me! has me utterly convinced, though of course I can't formally diagnose her. She definitely has some waif qualities but with a large helping of witch and hermit thrown in there for good measure!

Over the past 6 months I've been trying to establish some healthy boundaries and working on my communication by trying not to JADE and to not be invalidating (I used to do a lot of this unfortunately), I've also used SET and DEARMAN whenever possible. She's responded well to some of it but pushed hard against boundary setting. A huge area of conflict throughout the relationship is my having at least 7 hours sleep. She's a night owl and often stays up very late drinking. Alcohol is her main comfort when she feels overwhelmed. Whenever I go to bed, she's upset and is often passive-aggressive. She can't understand why I don't stay up ridiculously late like I did at the start of the relationship. She often tries to initiate sex right around my bedtime or wakes me up in the middle of the night to initiate sex and have a 2-hour drive to work. I made this my first boundary; I go to bed when I'm tired and if we are out on a work night I make sure I head home in time to get 7 hours sleep. This hasn't gone down well with her, even using DEARMAN, especially when I have to (regretfully) decline sex as it makes her feel rejected. She will then usually punish me with a day of two of silent treatment, withholding intimacy or hyper-criticism. There have been other boundaries I have maintained such as refusal to accept any more physical abuse, leaving the room when she rages and politely closing down circular arguments. She describes me now as cold and much less caring than I used to be.

Over the course of the relationship she's broken up with me many, many times. The cruel and hateful things she said during these times will stay with me forever. At first, I used to be absolutely destroyed and wasn't fit to go to work and begged and begged her to take me back (even though I knew, logically, the reason for the breakup was usually something small and trivial) but as things went on I realised that I was caught in a destructive cycle and stopped this behaviour. Now I just calmly say "if that's what you think is best, I wouldn't have chosen to end the relationship but I respect that you need to". Her breakups are usually accompanied by long periods of silent treatment, self-pitying Facebook memes, taking part in activities she knows upsets me (using Class-A drugs is an example) and raging and blaming. The last time she broke up with me I gave no resistance because I felt exhausted and felt like I couldn't continue the cycle any more. This breakup lasted for two months and for almost three weeks of this she gave me the silent treatment. I truly believed that this time it was all over. Due to our financial and family circumstances I can only leave the house for a few days at a time until we can end the lease on this property in August so we were living together throughout most of this.

The sheer length of time she left us broken up gave me a lot of time to think, to put myself first and do things like go for walks and see friends and family. It was an oasis of calm for me even though she was still stomping around the house and occasionally waking me up in the middle of the night drunk and shouting bizarre, paranoid accusations at me. After 2 months I decided to stay at a friend's house for the weekend and out of respect for my then ex-partner I told her I would be going away and not to worry if I wasn't home. On that Friday I was at work and began receiving some worrying texts from her that included vague threats of self harm and that my going away made her feel like she wanted to die. It was clear to me that she was trying to manipulate me into cancelling my plans and staying home but she also has a history of self harm and suicide attempts and I'd had to call the police a few months ago. I stopped home on the way to my friends house to do a welfare check on her and to reassure her that she'd be OK and I would be back on Sunday evening. She promised she wasn't going to hurt herself so I left. All the way to my friends house (a 4 hour drive) she blew up my phone with text messages saying things like "I can't believe you left me" and "I need you, come home" and these continued all evening and all night until about 2 am whereupon she confessed that she didn't want to break up with me and was sorry. She claimed that she only broke up with me because it hurts her to hurt me...a sort of self harm and that she knows she pushes me away because she feels that she doesn't deserve me and experiences uncontrollable anger that causes her to lash out at those closest to her. I was pretty furious about this but also a little hopeful at her sudden insight. I'd been making plans, saving up a deposit for a house, planned to move closer to work and had signed up to do a long-term course at work. These were all plans that I'd pushed aside during our relationship because they were incompatible with the plans we'd made together but as she'd ended the relationship, for good this time, I'd started to put them all in motion. I'd even sold and given away a load of my stuff and most of my things are packed in boxes! Before she broke up with me our plans had been to stay in this house until she finished her degree in June and then for her to pick a Masters degree and we'd move to wherever in the country that was and I'd find a job there and be the main financial support. She's been able to apply for a Masters degree since before Christmas and hadn't even picked one by June. This left me in a very difficult position as it left almost no time for me to find another job before September. I agreed to give things another go but told her that I needed the relationship to be different, that I needed to be able to have "me" time and 7 hours sleep and now that her university degree is over I wanted to stick with my plans to move closer to my work as the commute is exhausting me and there is the perfect Masters degree for her at the university there. She resisted this...hard. She didn't want to move to that city, how can I be so selfish? I'd promised her that I'd go with her wherever she wanted to go! Eventually she left me a note saying that she would move with me and put my needs and wants above her own and that maybe, one day, I'd do the same for her.

We tried to make things work for a month. The first two weeks were great, she listened to me and I listened to her. We were respectful of each other's needs and I continued with my boundaries of 7 hours sleep etc. One Friday I came home from work feeling really ill, I had a fever, ached all over, shaking, terrible headache. I went up to bed, took some painkillers and told her I felt ill and was going to bed early to try and sleep it off. She came up to bed much later, about 2 am, and woke me up, first by stroking my leg and then when I continued to (pretend) sleep, started prodding and tickling me to wake me up. She wanted sex. It didn't matter to her that I was ill or that I was fast asleep. I groggily said something along the lines of "I'm sorry babe, I'm really not well and need sleep" and she huffily got in bed and muttered that I only wanted it when it suited my schedule (this is a common refrain from her). The next morning I felt wiped out but a bit better, I was irritated by the events of the previous night and the fact that for the rest of the morning she gave me the cold shoulder and made comments like "well I have to try and make myself feel good because you don't care" when I said her makeup looked nice. It went downhill from there really, over the next two weeks it felt much like the same old cycle. She was unhappy when I went to bed, she made snide, cutting remarks, withheld affection and told me that I didn't make her feel happy, that I was cold and didn't care about her and she began to behave in her usual, entitled way by no longer doing her share of the household chores, asking me for a lift and then leaving me waiting in my car for ages and demanding that I do menial tasks like shred her bank statements for her.

I reached rock bottom. I thought about how it had been when we were broken up and I thought about how all her new self-insight and change was so fleeting. I highly doubted that she would ever seek the help she needs or even admit she has problems. I couldn't bear for things to go back to the way they were, so, after a month of trying, I told her that I didn't think the relationship was working, that I thought we should separate, that I love her and care about her (I do, enormously) but I am not happy with the relationship and that I don't see any prospect of it improving. Initially she said she agreed and then, once it sank in, she seemed shocked. She said that she thought things had been much better, that we were just having a blip and she couldn't believe I could be so cruel and heartless. I went downstairs to try and sleep on the sofa bed...she followed and said that she just needed to be near me. She sat and stared at me looking so sorrowful and hurt that I felt like my heart was being ripped out. After about an hour of silent staring she asked if it was my final decision. I said, yes, I'd put a lot of thought into it and it wasn't something I was doing lightly or as a punishment. That I loved her and wanted the best for her but that I couldn't continue in a relationship that I thought was damaging and hurtful. She went upstairs and I found her writing a suicide note. She said if I wouldn't be in a relationship with her then she didn't want to live. I told her that if I thought she was going to hurt herself that I would call the police like last time. She said she wouldn't but then half an hour later I caught her attempting to overdose on my medication. I called an ambulance and we ended up in A&E for the night. The mental health crisis team spoke to her for a couple of hours and then brought me in. They asked me what I thought and I said that I felt as though I was being given an impossible choice - stay in the relationship or she would end her life. They asked her what she thought and she agreed that without the relationship she had no reason to live. They seemed unhappy at this and basically asked me if I'd be home to keep an eye on her if they discharged her. I said I would and then they said to her that they feel strongly she needs counselling. Then they said that they thought DBT would be the best therapy for her but unfortunately they were unable to offer it in our area and handed her some self-help DBT worksheets instead. They explained to her that she needs to learn how to regulate her emotions better, that she needs to learn how to self soothe, to question herself when her feelings might not be facts and to practice radical acceptance. I sat there feeling a mixture of relief and anger. To me it seemed obvious that they recognised she may have BPD but that they knew that they couldn't offer her any effective treatment. Instead they suggested she try CBT as they could offer that and gave her a prescription of antidepressants. I offered to pay for her to see a DBT therapist privately and have found two locally(ish) that specialise in BPD. She said she would seriously consider it but was reluctant to take my money. I haven't mentioned BPD to her, I've just spoken about DBT as that's all the mental health team spoke about at the hospital.

For the next two days I felt like she nagged at me and wore me down. I was so exhausted and shell-shocked from it all that I barely used the communication tools. The fact that she was willing to try counselling was huge to me but I'm really ambivalent about trying this relationship again. I explained to her that I felt that I couldn't risk any further hurt to either of us by rushing into the relationship and that I needed time to think, rest, recover and work on myself. I also suggested that she would benefit from the time to focus on herself too. I suggested we take a break of few weeks, maybe a couple of months just to support each other outside of relationship pressures and try and work on our separate issues before re-engaging the relationship with a view to using couples counselling as we reconnected. She was not happy with that and instead yesterday gave me a 48-hour deadline to decide whether I want a relationship with her or not because she needs to be able to plan her life.

From what she's saying it sounds like she can't take the emotional stress of the uncertainty. Even though she wouldn't start her MSc until late September and we don't have to leave this house until late August her total inability to self-soothe means that she simply cannot handle any uncertainty. I feel that she's totally disregarding my need for rest, time and space. I even asked her if she would compromise as I was willing to shorten my time span and meet her in the middle say, 2 to 3 weeks perhaps so that I can make a decision calmly and without feeling under immense pressure. I know that my emotions are all over the place right now. I've had hardly any sleep all week and keep having meltdowns at work and am being uncharacteristically angry, defensive and childish whenever I get into discussions with my partner. I know all of this is because I'm at my limit, I need a break and can't make a reasoned decision in this state. I'm tempted to relent and agree to try again with the relationship but I am really wary because of our fragile emotional states and if things go badly it's going to be really, really bad. On the other hand, if I break off the relationship I'm scared of what she'll do and I'm scared I'll regret ending it when we could have reached a turning point (even though I know DBT is hard work and might take years or she might not even engage with it). The only other option that I see is to basically disregard her 48 hour deadline. She says if I don't give her an answer she'll assume it's a no and move on but is this all just a manipulative power play on her part? Do I roll the dice and hope that her charming instinct kicks in and I can have a couple of weeks R&R before she decides that she'll consider a short separation after all? Option 3 seems repellent to me, I hate that I could even consider something so manipulative but there it is!

Has anyone found themselves in similar situations? Do you have any wisdom to share? I wish I'd posted on here sooner, before things reached such a crisis point!

[G1B8oN]

I can't figure out how to edit my post but my phone has auto-corrected "charming" instincts to "charming" instincts towards the end of my post!

[formflier]

   Do you have any wisdom to share?

Yes I do.  We can cross that bridge later.  At the moment I want to applaud you for all the research and skill development you have done.  Double applause for the boundary setting around sleep.

I have several sleep disorders and for a while sleep was a battlefield for us.  Thankfully we crossed that challenge and I get sleep and my wife is usually a night owl..but a quiet one now.

OK...since you've obviously been reading and learning for a while, your "first" response is going to be VERY different than what I do for "normal" people that come here for the first time.

There are hints of your self care routine in your post.  That being said, when "nons" say they are exhausted...best to focus on self care, rather than trying to change their pwBPD.

So..FF assignment 1.  Tell me about your self care routine AND tell me how you are going to change it to care for yourself more!  You deserve it.  Rest=good  Exhaustion=Bad

Exhaustion=no tools=relationship decline.

She's responded well to some of it but pushed hard against boundary setting.

This is actually typical.  Boundaries are about you.  Many pwBPD seem selfish, so when you aren't focused on them...BAD!

That being said, we should spend some time examining how you "implement" your boundaries.  Perhaps we can accomplish same thing with less "upset" in the r/s.  This will likely take some trial and error.  Change around the SET...etc etc.

I'd had to call the police a few months ago

Solid work on involving authorities.    |iii

Any time SI (suicidal ideations) are around you have to bring your A game.  Do you have a counselor for YOU that you can talk through your responses to SI with?  This is not a "do it yourself" area. 
 
I'm so glad you finally posted.  I feel positive we can support you!

Best,

FF

[G1B8oN]

Hi Formflier,

Thanks for your reply, I'm on UK time so was getting my 7 hours!

Just to try and clarify, every time I write "charming" I'm trying to write H-O-O-V-E-R-I-N-G! No idea why it keeps getting changed 

My self care routine is probably pretty inadequate right now though I will add it is much better than it was. Unfortunately my uBPDgf decides to make my self care a battleground and whenever I do anything that only benefits myself she sees it as monstrously selfish.

I try and usually succeed in getting my 7 hours sleep. I have started to make sure I spend at least half a day every other weekend doing something that's just for me such as going to see my family or going for a nice walk in the countryside.

Unfortunately, whenever I go anywhere without inviting my partner I get a barrage of self pitying texts or sarcastic comments like "hope you're having a nice day without me" or "thanks for my invite...not" and for days afterwards she'll keep mentioning it as evidence that I don't love her, don't care for her or I'm cold and heartless. This spoils my day and if I don't respond in some way she'll escalate. These days I usually send one text with SET and ignore the rest. I've also got a problem in that I don't see my family often and they've seen the toll this relationship has taken on me, presently they have a negative opinion of her which she picks up on so I'd rather see them alone for now but of course she is upset about that too!

I've changed my evening routine midweek a little at a time. I used to get home from work (usually a 2 hour drive in horrendous traffic) and then sit with her for half an hour or so whilst she did her university work and ignored me or told me all about her day then I'd make dinner, we'd eat, I'd wash up, shower and then spend the rest of the night sitting with her, often bored, usually helping her do her uni work.

Even this routine was upsetting to her, she hated when I went for a shower (she described it as me selfishly putting my needs before hers), she hated it if I listened to a podcast or music when I cooked and cleaned even though we weren't in the same room because it meant to her that I was ignoring her.

These days I sit in my car on the drive and before entering the house I ask myself what *I* would like to do this evening. I have maintained that I will spend my first 30-60 minutes with her chatting as I think this is a positive thing and I enjoy it (unless she's sulking or raging or criticising me in which case I'll make a polite exit if she continues). If I want to cook dinner I will but if not, I won't. She's an adult and is perfectly capable of cooking too. If I've cooked dinner, I will ask her to wash up, if she doesn't do it, fine, I've got plenty of paper plates! I try and spend at least one evening a week watching tv shows I like and she doesn't as this is the only chance I get to watch them. I like PC gaming and try and spend a couple of hours once a week doing this too. I used to do all our clothes washing and ironing and I've stopped doing her ironing, if she doesn't do her fair share of the washing I'll pull my stuff out and just do my own. For a while I'd ask her to put the laundry on but began to feel like a nagging mother so stopped that. All of this has of course resulted in her getting upset and feeling like I don't care about her.

An example of our communication around my boundaries are...

Following on from our evening chat...

Me: I'm glad you've had a really nice day, I can see that you're busy working on your laptop right now. I've been wanting to watch the new season of Jessica Jones on Netflix so I'm gonna head downstairs to watch an episode. Would you like to do something together later like play a board game or on the Wii?

Her: Whatever, do what you like, it's all about your needs these days anyway

Me: I'm gonna go watch TV for an hour. I can tell that you feel unhappy about that, are you feeling rejected?

Her: Not that you care anyway you only care about yourself

Me: I'm sorry you feel rejected, I sometimes enjoy watching TV on my own and I know you don't watch that show. I enjoy spending time with you too though and would really like to do something with you later when you've finished working on your laptop

Her: I see, it's only when it suits you, I'm just a toy you can pick up and drop whenever you want. I think I won't have time for you tonight and I'm going to go paint for the rest of the evening. Enjoy your show.

At this point I'll go downstairs, watch an hour of TV then find her, offer to do something together, she says no so I'll just get on with my evening. She'll then throw barbs at me for the rest of the week about how I care more about watching TV than her these days.

I don't have a counsellor other than a free telephone helpline I get from work. It's a different person every time and so it's not that helpful as I have to explain my situation over and again...I'll always call the authorities whenever she makes threats about self-harm and suicide these days. Early in our relationship she make a fairly serious attempt on her life and she still bears the scars from this. I promised myself and her that I would always make sure in future to call emergency services in the future and I've stuck to that.

[Enabler]

GB,

You have put some serious work into dealing with your GF. So much thought and effort. It's quite remarkable TBH. It's super super tough when someone has such a warped sense of what amounts to 'love' and caring behaviour.

My only suggestion would be that you reduce the number of words you use when stating what you're going to do, it could come across as a bit JADEy and encouraging her to vent back to you. I also wonder if there's a way you can work to cease/shorten the fallout period of her sulking. If you sulk, I will __________ ... simply put, teach what behaviour you find acceptable and what you don't. Passive aggressive behaviour is not acceptable.

Looking out 10yrs, what do you want? Where do you see yourself?

Enabler

[G1B8oN]

Hi, enabler 

I probably do sometimes use too many words...I think it's my thing! I do it all aspects of my life (have you seen the length of my first post  ?)

I'm also probably subconsciously anxious of being too blunt and coming across as mean and uncaring, I have constant re-enforcement of that from my uBPDgf so sometimes it's hard to totally resist her attempts at programming.

Do you think it would be better if in the example I gave I just said "I'm gonna go watch Jessica Jones on TV for an hour" and left it at that?  Unfortunately I think the end result would be her raging but I suppose I'd just have to respond to that with my established boundary of leaving the room and, if necessary, leaving the house (though I have nowhere to go at night and will then miss out on watching TV...). If I confronted her sulking she'd simply deny it and then try and gaslight me, I'd be the one overreacting and being sulky. I've actually taken to recording our conversations because she gaslights and projects so often that I feel like I need to re-listen sometimes to check I'm not going mad.

It's the 10 year question that makes me hesitant about whether to pursue the relationship. I'd like to imagine that I'd have continued to set more healthy boundaries and was able to do more things I enjoy like go see airshows, spend days in the countryside taking photos, joined a sports team and expanded my friend group (presently I've only got two close friends who live a very long way away). All these things I have the power to enact myself though the thought of having her dragging her heels and throwing her toys out of the pram all the way is disheartening.

I'd hope that my partner would have engaged with DBT and was making positive progress towards distress tolerance, regulating her emotions etc. but of course I can't assume this or even factor it in because it rests entirely with her. Another thing that worries me is that she's really keen on us starting a family but there's no way I'd bring children into this environment so unless things improve, it's going to be a huge area of conflict.

For now I'm just really not sure how to handle this 48-hour ultimatum she's given me. I know that I cannot make a reasoned or calm decision about our future in that time. I know that I risk hurting her terribly if I agree to continue the relationship but then end up finishing it after a few months because I don't see any hope of progress. I've spent more than 48 hours trying to decide whether to get another fish for my tank never mind something as monumental as this. I also balk at the idea of playing it her way and making any decision in this ridiculously short time-frame she has imposed on us. I feel like if I allow her to manipulate me this way to address her inability to cope with uncertainty that I'm rewarding her and encouraging her to make more all or nothing ultimatums like this in the future...the 48 hours expires tomorrow!

[Enabler]

I think there is a tendancy for Nons to bend themselves into some form which fits the model that pwBPD want... although that want/need changes constantly so what works one day may not work the next. The ultimatum is just another example of your gf asking you to change shape, remould and prove yourself to her time and time again.

what seems to be an effective way to run a life (for all) seems to be to decide on a shape, making sure that shape is as clean and shiny as possible and free from offensive edges and set it... maybe not in stone, but certainly with some sense of rigidity. Then find a partner who fits that mould or could at least accept that mould as it is. The constant pressure to evolve your gf puts upon you means she is not accepting you for who you are. If you can't make a decision in 48 hours YOU CAN'T MAKE A DECISION IN 48 HOURS. If you want to go to an airshow or take photos in the woods and that seems a reasonable thing to do for a young man to do, I think you should do these things... despite what she may imply about your personal character.

Yes there might be some fallout, maybe she might even try and commit suicide, she might leave, or she might accept that you're no longer fighting, you're no longer dancing, you're no longer on the rollercoaster and she has to put her DBT training into practice.

Enabler 

[formflier]

Ignore the ultimatum.  She can decide in 48 hours...or 46 hours, 32 minutes and 18 seconds.  That's totally up to her.  You aren't involved in that.

She can request you decide in a time period, then it's up to you to do that or not.  

My suggestion "This sounds very important to you.  Therefore I'm going to give it my best.   I'm scheduling time to reflect on this in the next few days."  don't ask if it's ok.

Generally...ignore ultimatums.

OK...I'm positive we can help you and things will calm somewhat as a result.  Until we start working with this...no way to predict outcomes.

I'm sure that if you get a good T that you are comfortable with, the outcome will be considerably better than if you just stick with the phone support (which I applaud you for taking advantage of)

Have you ever done T before?

When she is sulky..making weird comments suggesting you are (fill in the blank) have you switched up your responses?  Any insight into responses that work better or worse?
 
Enabler is on the right track.  Less words...more focus.  More words=more chances for her to find ammo.  What does she do when you hand her ammo?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Her: Whatever, do what you like, it's all about your needs these days anyway  (Hey..would you like to fight?  I would like to fight..here is my bait)

Me: I'm gonna go watch TV for an hour. I can tell that you feel unhappy about that, are you feeling rejected?
 

OK...there is going to be a lot of trial and error in figuring out how to respond.  Sometimes honestly is the best policy.

you  "Oh my!..I'll have to think about how best to respond."  (leave room)  or perhaps add on "I'll check back with you in 30 min " (and then do that)

I like to use pictures in my head.  Very simple things.  That keeps my word count down.  I can also use lots of words...that hasn't been helpful in my r/s.  Now I'm always thinking about how to be more succinct.  For instance..I now think "I'm speechless" is better than "I'll have to think about how best to respond."

Big picture:  You are available for conversations, you are not available for fights.  You aren't controlling her, you are controlling you.  She can fight if she wants...you just won't be involved.

Even when she is fighting, you periodically will "put your toe in the water" and "open the door" for a more centered conversation.  If she keeps fighting, wash rinse repeat.

If she begins to center...stick with her.  She gets to be with you.

Ultimately...I think that is her goal.  She wants more of you.  

Don't try to explain this to her.  Use it to your advantage.

Best,

FF


 

[Enabler]

Definitely no kids at the moment and DO NOT RELY ON HER TO BE USING CONTRACEPTION EVEN IF SHE SAYS SHE IS...

[G1B8oN]

You're right, I am still allowing her to manipulate me into changing myself to suit her needs and naturally her needs change as soon as I meet them.

She's charming me right now and I'm right in her laser sights. Even this morning I've gotten two texts from her saying that shes hurt and confused. That she can't understand why I'm throwing everything away and won't sleep in the same bed as her. She says she cannot continue with the situation right now and that she NEEDS to know what's happening and needs to know if my commitment to the relationship is still there BY SATURDAY. That it hurts her that I want to be away from her and that I'm leaving her to suffer and wait (sigh...there's the waif). She's just sent me a load of photos of our initials in love hearts and I've no idea what to do.

My brain is screaming FOR GOODNESS' SAKE! LEAVE ME ALONE FOR A BIT! STOP PILING ON THE PRESSURE! I'M GONNA BLOW! GO AWAY! but of course I won't react that way. Any tips for getting her to back down for a bit. I know this is partly a fear response on her part.

That's great advice Formflier and I'll absolutely say something along those lines...how about...

"I know it's really important to you to know what I want, I'm taking what you're saying very seriously and when I can give you an answer, I will, without delay"

Unfortunately a therapist for me is just not something I can afford financially right now. If I move home with my partner closer to work I'll be saving a huge amount of money on fuel and it's something I will definitely do. I've even researched a few that sound like they might suit me. If I end up separating from my partner and moving alone I'm going to be under a lot of financial pressure and probably won't be able to afford (though without my partner a T wouldn't probably be such a necessity). I had a prescription of antidepressants from my GP and they put me on an online CBT course which was useless. The AD didn't really help me much either, I've found that establishing boundaries is a much bigger boost to my mental health!

Enabler, she's not yet started DBT and is at the "seriously considering it" phase. She is about to commence some kind of NHS counselling but it's likely to be the same online CBT course I did and be about as useful as a chocolate fireguard. Oh and I'm a lady btw!  

[G1B8oN]

Even when she is fighting, you periodically will "put your toe in the water" and "open the door" for a more centered conversation.  If she keeps fighting, wash rinse repeat.

If she begins to center...stick with her.  She gets to be with you.
 

That's very interesting, I sometimes try to respond with "I'm sorry you feel that way" when she's saying thing like "it's all about your feelings". I'll definitely try a bit of "I'm speechless" next time!

Could you please elaborate a bit on what you mean by "dipping my toe in the water?" What does a more centered conversation look like? I'm not sure I'm 100% clear on the terminology there...

Thanks so much both of you, I'm really grateful for your help and advice 

[formflier]

"I know it's really important to you to know what I want, I'm taking what you're saying very seriously and when I can give you an answer, I will, without delay"
 

Ugg...that's an old FF answer.  Sorry but you flunk! 

OK..say the same thing with 1/3 of the words. 

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Could you please elaborate a bit on what you mean by "dipping my toe in the water?" What does a more centered conversation look like? I'm not sure I'm 100% clear on the terminology there...

Thanks so much both of you, I'm really grateful for your help and advice 

Rule number 1.  Be pragmatic (maybe that's number 2..rule 1..take care of yourself first!)

OK..does "I'm sorry you feel that way" work?

Before you jump in a pool you want to know what?    Why don't people just jump in?

So..."centering"  If someone is really happy...which way is the center?  If someone is really mad..which way is the center?  You generally don't want to "pile on" and push them farther away.  BPDish people tend to shift to extremes so it can be helpful to "nudge" them towards the center.

Best,

FF

[G1B8oN]

Haha, OK... erm how about...

"I know it's important to you, me too, as soon as I can give you a response, I will"

?

She's still sending my photos and messaging by the way...I haven't responded to any except the first yet.

No, I don't think "I'm sorry you feel that way works" she often responds with "yes you're always sorry..." so yeah, it just invites more drama.

Oh I see, "centre" is where her emotional pendulum has not swung to an extreme! Thanks for clarifying! Yes I love it when she's in the centre!

[Enabler]

Oh and I'm a lady btw!  

Whoops, my bad, a million apologies

[G1B8oN]

  No worries Enabler! At least contraception isn't an issue!

[Enabler]

What message do you what/need to send to her? This is my shortlist:

Ultimatums are not for you and not part of a healthy relationship
You care and love her deeply
That you are considering this carefully
You are not using the delay as a form of manipulation
That the old relationship did not work for you and was dysfunctional
You are a separate entity, with separate feelings and separate needs/wants... AND ALWAYS WILL.

I would not include:

Any reverse ultimatums about DBT, she has to want to do the training for herself

First stab -
"I think it's healthy that we've put a time limit on my decision, I'm terrible at procrastination. I'm carefully considering whether or not the relationship I want is compatible with what you need. It's totally normal and good that people want different things and I need to consider how accepting we can both be about our differences. The relationship we have had was not working for me, and it didn't seem it was working well for you either. Please respect my need for space to consider these things. I will not be reading/responding to you messages until I have an answer for you to give myself the head-space I need. Thanks"

[G1B8oN]

Thanks enabler,

I completely agree that a reverse ultimatum is utterly unacceptable and would then just be me manipulating her. I'm very aware that DBT is hard work and unless she's fully committed it won't work.

Yesterday I said to her that I don't think setting such a short deadline is reasonable and that ultimatums are not part of a healthy relationship in my eyes. I respect her need for a quicker resolution and am willing to find a compromise that works for both of us. I said that I wasn't using this to punish or manipulate her, that I am like an empty battery, I'm plugged in and charging but need longer than 48 hours to charge. I have stated many times that I love her and care about her, that's not ever a question in my mind, that I just do not think the relationship is healthy or safe for either of us and would need to look different for me to be able to continue.

She absolutely HATES it if I make any comparison to what is normal for other people and other relationships and it seems to be a huge trigger for her.

Her most recent text message asked me if I would like her to cook dinner. I've replied "Yes, that would be lovely, thank you. I am giving everything a lot of thought right now and need to do this quietly. I need for you to not message me for the rest of the day unless urgent. Thank you"

[Enabler]

If you have stated you need more than 48 hours then take more than 48 hours. Say what you mean and mean what you say. If she runs (which I very much doubt) that's her choice.

Well done for avoiding her hooks, now ignore her remaining messages, if it's on whatsap be careful not to view them and give her the blue ticks... in fact I would change your privacy settings there if you haven't already (get rid of last seen, read notifications etc etc).

Re DBT, from what I have heard, NHS DBT courses tend to be in the daytime as well which is grossly unhelpful for anyone attempting to continue with 'life'.

Does she have a childhood history of abuse of any type?

Enabler

[G1B8oN]

They're text messages and as I have a smartwatch I can dismiss Whatapp etc. messages without triggering the blue ticks, I learned that early on!

She's respected my request so far, I suspect she will until I get home then it'll be an overwhelming rush of lovebombing and button pressing.

Yes she has an absolutely horrendous childhood history of every kind of abuse imaginable, she doesn't like talking about it understandably but I'm not surprised she has MH problems. She also has some history of physical abuse as an adult from prior partners (though I take this with a grain of salt as she was physically abusive with me in the first year of our relationship until I told her it was TOTALLY unacceptable and if she did it again I would not hesitate to leave the RS).

I will stick to my guns, I need more than 48 hrs, I will take what time I need. She'll probably do something awful as a result but that's her choice just like the 48 hour deadline is her choice.

[formflier]

"I know it's important to you, me too, as soon as I can give you a response, I will"
 

On the right track.  Remember..trial and error.

This would be my first effort.

Pause..."Oh my.. "(pause obvious deep breath and perhaps a light touch on the arm (my wife's love language is touch).  " I'll give your words thought."   

Now..step back and consider how much "ammo" I provided...compared to you first and second attempt. 

Best,

FF


 

[Enabler]

Yes she has an absolutely horrendous childhood history of every kind of abuse imaginable, she doesn't like talking about it understandably but I'm not surprised she has MH problems.

I am sure you are aware that she will need separate therapy for tackling the abuse as well as DBT. DBT won't heal trauma, it allows a person to cope with the maladapted behaviours resulting from the trauma.

Do you have a plan B  in case she's insistent about discussing tonight? Local friends you could meet at a pub with? Local hotel?

[formflier]

"Yes, that would be lovely, thank you. I am giving everything a lot of thought right now and need to do this quietly. I need for you to not message me for the rest of the day unless urgent. Thank you"

So...I'm not trying to teach you "what to say"...but "how to consider what is wise to say".  Hopefully you can see the nuance there.  pwBPD toss curveballs all the time, so no chance to memorize or have wrote responses.

A good rule is to stick to the topic at hand.

She had a good "centered" communication and in your response you introduced some things that could be "destabilizing"

Stick with dinner...stick with normal.  There may be times when you want to raise a hard topic, usually best to do that at your initiation...not in response to their (fill in the blank).

"Yes..thanks dinner would be lovely.  I'm still remembering that lovely fish you made last week."

See...it's all about dinner and a slight nudge of positive.

Best,

FF

[G1B8oN]

Yes, under "normal circumstances" my response would have been to just say something along the lines of

"Thank you, dinner would be lovely, I love your cooking"

I felt like just replying like that today  though would encourage her to continue to bomb my phone with messages all day (the message count from her has reached 11) and I can feel my tolerance for that running low so I thought best to just be straightforward and ask for some quiet time. Perhaps I should have put a time limit in there like "I look forward to chatting with you over dinner" ?

I'm sure she'll need therapy for the abuse too but that's for her to seek again. She's full of shame and self blame about it still and I fear that being able to talk about it is a long way off. Surely she'd be better off learning self-soothing skills and new ways of thinking through DBT before taking the plunge into that very deep, black, scary water. She's also still in contact with some of her abusers, some are even family members and others she views as friends and she doesn't even view them as abusers. She's still pretty young at 27 and only at the start of a very long journey.

[Enabler]

They typically run then 2 concurrently. Distress tolerance techniques are clearly useful when peeling back the onion in therapy, but for long term health you have to address the rot and source of disordered thinking.

[G1B8oN]

I highly doubt that without more serious suicide attempts the  NHS are gonna give her the help she needs. The private therapists I've found and offered to pay for will hopefully understand her needs as they both specialise in BPD and are trained in DBT and other therapeutic techniques. The ball's in her court on that one. I have hope that she's able to accept the help she so badly needs but only time will tell.

[Cat Familiar]

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