Brother's wife with BPD traits, my parents are turning blind eye...

[Jareth89]

Brother has been married for 4 years (together since 2008), they have one 2 year old son...the mask slipped off last year and she has not been quite the same since. I'm his sister and there have always been some minor interpersonal difficulties between his wife and I but I attributed this originally to her being an only child (I am one of 3). However since last year I recognise that she has bpd traits and that it looks likely my brother is suffering from some emotional abuse. Her parents enable her behaviour by never seeming to question her role in any disputes (she is never to blame or be corrected) and they tend to echo her irrational thoughts when she is having an emotional episode. Her mother has some features of bpd and it's possible that her father has some mild traits too. The 3 of them work together as a team and I find them quite controlling. My concern is for my brother in all of this, who clearly knows that something is not right but is for some reason not taking a firm stand and is succumbing to her brainwashing and manipulations. I do not know what really goes on in their house because my brother is not talking about this voluntarily, which is a concern all by itself. I feel that my sil sees my family and especially me as a threat to her relationship with my brother and that she encourages him to think badly of us and plants seeds of doubt in his mind.

I have discussed this with my parents and they are currently turning a blind eye to the situation and there have been many arguments. They do not think I should interfere which I find ridiculous and I cannot do the same. I feel I have a moral obligation to my brother to tell him what her problem is. You would think that my parents would at least commend me for having identified the problem and showing concern for my brother. I honestly do not think he should be married to this woman. She is not an asset to our family. Her parents only care about their daughter, nobody else - they need her to be the centre of attention. They are not the in-laws that my family deserves. I can hardly ever have an interesting conversation with my sil...even when I announced that I could cure my illness it generated no curiosity or major interest from her. I really miss having a sil that is interested in my life and can provide some stimulating conversation. If my brother wasn't so spineless, none of these problems would have been allowed to emerge. She takes full advantage of his weaknesses. It is my duty however to inform my brother of her issues and that I do not approve of her if she does not seek treatment and take responsibility. In all honesty, I would wish for him to divorce and find a woman who adds value to his life and my family. I cannot accept a woman who has been turning my only brother against me (my elder brother died unfortunately when I was 17 and he was 22...).

[Jareth89]

My intention is to inform my brother first, then regardless of the outcome I will be informing my sil that i'm aware of her condition and that treatment can be sought...and see what the response is.

I just wonder though, how I will be treated after this, whether she will feel even more threatened and how her parents will view me. Damned if I do and damned if I don't. All you can do is tell the truth. I just never expected to be dealing with this in my own family. Just how do these people reach their adult years not realising they have a serious problem and seek help for it. What are the parents doing?

[Notwendy]

IMHO, I would stop right there and do not open your mouth.

I have discussed this with my parents and they are currently turning a blind eye to the situation and there have been many arguments. They do not think I should interfere which I find ridiculous and I cannot do the same.

I feel I have a moral obligation to my brother to tell him what her problem is.

Your parents are actually doing the wise thing. Your brother is an adult. He made this choice and he knows it. Stepping in as his "rescuer" will likely lead to drama, and it won't work with your brother anyway.

If you choose to do this, be prepared to be cut off from your brother, because he will do this.

Why do I say this to you? It's because I experienced it. Please read up on the Karpman drama triangle. It's a model for the roles people take in a family where there is a dysfunctional person.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle


The drama triangle rotates around your brother's wife. She is the victim and your brother is her rescuer. His emotional need to be her rescuer is stronger than his other relationships.

Your brother is enmeshed with this woman. Whatever anyone says to him, he will tell her. It's part of the drama. For them to bond as victim- rescuer, there needs to be a persecutor. When the two of them are bonded together against a common persecutor they are not focused on the issues between them. It is a bonding thing. If you were to tell your brother what you think, it's like handing a kid an ice cream sundae- he will deliver it to her - they will share in this drama supply, she will be the victim, he will be the object of her admiration for rescuing her from you by taking her side, and the two of them will bond against you.

Your parents are older, wiser, and they know this.

You do have a choice- to do this but be prepared to lose the relationship with your brother.

You may feel dishonest doing what your parents are doing, but they are also making it possible to stay in your brother's life. They are making a tough choice, but they recognize that this is the way to maintain contact. They also know that this is his choice, and as hard as it is to see what is going on, the only thing that could change it is if he comes to his own conclusion, decides he's had enough of this- if he does.

I know this because like you, as an adult, I tried to step in to rescue my father from my abusive BPD mom. It didn't change their relationship. He was married to her- he knew what was going on, but being her rescuer was his main choice- stronger than his relationship with his parents, his siblings- and his own children. He'd discard his relationship with me to please and rescue her, and he did.

I was naive. I didn't know the tools for navigating a BPD relationship that are here on this board. I didn't know about the Karpman triangle. There is a way to deal with pwBPD and at least make your choices with these skills. IMHO, sticking around here for a while, reading about these kinds of relationships, learning the tools can help you decide how to proceed with your brother.

[Jareth89]

Notwendy, thanks for taking the time to reply and I haven't read your post fully yet but I must correct you on your comment about my parents...my parents are in fact not wise. The truth of the matter is that they are not even able to discuss the issue about my sil with me. They have just chosen to avert their gaze and not even talk about this at all or the ramifications it has for my family. There is no adult, mature discussion. We at least need to be able to discuss the general picture we are dealing with and assess how that is going to impact my family's wellbeing and future. One concern is the manipulation and power she wields via my brother and how her own parents facilitate this and likely make my brother feel engulfed. It is scary to witness. Just quickly about men in relationships with these women - I have read many accounts and all wished they got out sooner or realised sooner what this disorder was that they were dealing with. Am I supposed to tell my twin brother years from now (possibly after his health has been ruined and sense of self damaged) that I knew all along what this was but chose not to enlighten him? What about the 2yr old son...my brother needs to know how the mother-child relationship with this disorder can affect the child and ways to counteract this from his side?

 I am very close to my twin brother and we value our relationship, but this woman is ill in the head and has the ability to distort his thinking in ways I didn't think imaginable. I completely agree with your comment about the persecutor role that she has assigned me. I could never figure out why she would be subtly disparaging about me in front of my brother without reason on occasion, but this is clearly an attempt to invent something she can bond with him over (to confirm between them that I am the problem) and to also reduce the relationship bond between me and my brother which she sees as a threat. All behaviours blindly revolve around her deep seated insecurities and needs without concern for the effects on others. Normal adults probably have these same insecurities/needs from time to time, but people with bpd/traits act on them like children with the guile of an adult.

The problem is my brother is being emotionally abused/brainwashed...I don't live in their house so I don't know exactly what she is doing, but I see the effects with him being subdued in her presence when he comes over to my parents house. He also doesn't interact with me freely in her presence so it's changing my relationship with him. He knows something is wrong (he has complained about her mood swings, always has to be right, inability to tolerate criticism...) but when he tried to contend with her on one occasion she casually said '...otherwise I will divorce you' and my brother immediately went into submission. This is sad, my brother has a PhD (scientist) and can do so much better for himself and our family. Yes it looks like he's a white knight (for now), but his princess is about to castrate him and i'm genuinely worried for his health. I don't consider myself his rescuer. We all need people in our lives who care about us to tell us what we cannot see for ourselves, but he will have to be the one to take action on that information.

The other option is trying to help her by informing her gently of her condition, but it could backfire spectacularly and i'm not sure how successful therapy really is in reality. Another issue that you mentioned is that I don't feel I can have a private relationship with him without her knowing what I talk to him about. He probably doesn't realise this compromises the brother-sister relationship. I never know what they talk about so the flow of information is in one direction. My parents are in their early 70s and this situation is not safe for our family to continue. If this is still going on when my parents are not here, I wonder what will become of my relationship with my brother and what will be left that I can call 'family'.

[Jareth89]

Just wanted to say thanks for your advice Notwendy, it was very informative. I'm sorry about your difficulties with your parents...the psychology is interesting because my mother is slightly controlling and my father is more passive. True security is never borne out of these relationship dynamics (but yearned for) and it's the opposite of what psychology tells us is healthy for growth and stability.

[Jareth89]

What I don't understand is how my sil bpd traits could be so much more pronounced beginning last year and whether it goes downhill from here. I slightly criticised her in Jan last year, then because of studying I didn't visit her house as much at all but she came to my parents every week, then I told her that I had found scientific literature that can cure my medical condition and was subsequently busy with that. She actually didn't have an excited response to my positive news and didn't ask me much about it the whole of last year. She was actually fairly negative and undermining and succeeded even in encouraging my brother to be negative and doubting about my positive news. I just don't know why and how that relates to bpd traits, unless she feels the attention is being taken away from her. I do know that she has used my medical condition on occasion as a way to discredit me (possible bonding mechanism with my brother) and perhaps the good news I gave her removed this mechanism...but it's deeply disturbing behaviour for an adult woman and I need the support of my parents for them to not simply ignore this. Trying to explain these dynamics to my parents makes them confused because it is after all quite bizarre...

[Jareth89]

Stepping in as his 'rescuer' will likely lead to drama and it won't work with your brother anyway. If you choose to do this, be prepared to be cut off from your brother, because he will do this

Do you think he himself will cut me off or his wife will influence him to do so? I don't think he will ever risk cutting me off entirely but I do think his wife and her parents could strong-arm him. I think the only danger is letting her know that I'm aware about her condition, because she then realises that she cannot hide and cannot deceive me. The fact that I know may also alarm her parents. My brother already knows that I saw a psychologist earlier this year. Do you think she realises she has this condition? Do you think her parents know? I think it's unlikely that I will play chess on this, with tactics to manage interactions. If I'm to give her a chance at therapy then I have no other option but to gently discuss the topic with her.

[kiwigal]

I am so sorry you are going through this.. I can hear how distressing this is for you! It's truly so hard.
Your parents sound avoidant?
It's also interesting that your mother is controlling and your father is passive, hence it seems your brother has a more learned 'peacemaker/passive' role?

The advice here is so right. You will be cut off, because as you've identified, she already has a great deal of leveraging over him emotionally. Our worst fears are abandonment and rejection and she holds that over him.. plus there is a precious child in the mix. The difficulty is, there is a lot of co-dependency going on and it takes a lot of ownership, pain and personal curiosity to honestly evaluate what part we have to play in these toxic relationships.
What 'need' does she meet in your brother? What role has he played in your family of origin? What do you think stops him from being able to stand up to her? Why can't he see the enmeshment? The game playing?

Sometimes recognising the part your brother has to play, can mean that you stop seeing him as a victim. Thats important because here's the hard part; he isn't a victim here. He is a grown adult who needs to learn how to stand up to controlling woman in his life. It's likely he struggled do that with your mum? Struggles to do that even now. And if you 'inform' him.. you are adding to that picture. Instead, remind yourself things often have to get worse, much much worse, before they can get better. Yes, it may affect his health. Its already going to be affecting his mental health. But we only seek help when we feel the pain enough to want the change. Even when he seeks help, don't step in.. direct him to a therapist so that he can maintain ownership and truly do the deep work, and keep working on your own personal boundaries too.

[No-One]

Hi Jareth89 - Welcome!
I'm sorry about your situation with your SIL. Notwendy & kiwigal gave you some good advice! I can tell you really care a lot about your brother and want to preserve your relationship for the long run. 

You mentioned seeing a therapist earlier in the year.  Did you discuss your ideas about approaching your SIL with the therapist?  Perhaps it could be beneficial to have a few more sessions and discuss some of your current ideas. It could help to have the guidance from a therapist.  I believe your ultimate objective is to stay close with your brother through all stages of your life, so best to have some professional guidance.

It rarely goes well when you approach someone about a mental health condition, and tell them they have a problem, especially someone like a SIL. Most people with BPD will react negatively. They may even suggest that you are the one with a problem. An aggressive approach is doomed for failure and will likely alienate your from your brother. Men who couple with women with BPD or strong BPD traits have issues of their own, if they didn't they would be in a healthy relationship.

What I don't understand is how my sil bpd traits could be so much more pronounced beginning last year and whether it goes downhill from here. I slightly criticised her in Jan last year. . .

Everyone is different, but it is common to be around someone for a period of time and not see their worst behaviors.  Someone with BPD traits will lose composure during stressful events.  Some may take offense to something you did or said and then the war begins.

What did you criticize her about? 

What's slight to you can be huge to someone with BPD or strong BPD traits.  A major strategy is to NOT invalidate (by word, body language or expression). 

. . .Her mother has some features of bpd and it's possible that her father has some mild traits too. The 3 of them work together as a team and I find them quite controlling. . .

Do you think she realizes she has this condition? Do you think her parents know? . . .   

Dysfunction can be the "normal" of dysfunctional families.  It feels like home to them.  People who grow up in a home with low emotional intelligence tend to perpetuate that.

Do you think he himself will cut me off or his wife will influence him to do so?   

  It's a possibility.  A common situation is for a co-dependent husband to defend his wife.  Many wife's, with BPD or strong BPD traits, will convince their husband to abandon their family or have very limited contact.

I told her that I had found scientific literature that can cure my medical condition and was subsequently busy with that. She actually didn't have an excited response to my positive news and didn't ask me much about it the whole of last year.   

I'm sorry you are struggling with a medical problem.  Are you able to share a little about that?  Have you been able to apply what your research uncovered and get a desirable result?

She won't likely ever be close with you or really care about you in the way you wish.  She might be able to occasionally show some empathy or concern, but not consistently.  Best to just accept her for who she is and manage your own reactions & emotions.

Once someone with strong BPD traits looks at you as an adversary (target for blame & dysregulated emotions), it can be difficult to reverse things. 

He also doesn't interact with me freely in her presence so it's changing my relationship with him.   

Can you give some examples?  Perhaps there is a better way to deal with the situation.  SIL might feel invalidated (invalidation of feelings - not that you have to agree with a position).  Invalidation is possible by either word, body language or expression. 

Perhaps the thing to do right now is to focus on you and manage how you interact and react to SIL and your brother.  Take it a step at a time and see how things go.  If you jump into an aggressive approach to try and "fix" SIL or kick her out of the family, it won't go well.

You can't change someone else.  The only thing you can do is manage the way you interact and react to both your SIL and brother.  There are a lot of communication skills you can learn to use that can make things better for you.  So, best to focus on you and manage you. 

Take a look around and start with some of the lessons.  A good place to start is with some of the links within the "Tools" menu from the large green band at the top of this page.  "Don't invalidate" and "boundaries" would be a good place to start, then use the last link to get familiar with the Workshops and browse for some more lessons.

[Jareth89]

Kiwigal, my mother is controlling and my father more passive (of course), but neither to a great degree, however the trend is there.

My parents are indeed a little avoidant at the moment, but I suppose it's only natural to be shocked by this information about their son and his wife and what it means for their grandchild and our family. It's not a matter that can be ignored or even navigated. I know there is plenty of advice out there about what to do and certain 'rules' to follow and I am digesting it, but i'm using my own head here as there seems to be no real consensus on how to handle this situation quite honestly. I will be updating this post so that other members can see what action I took and what the effect was.

The advice given here (which I very much respect but not sure I fully agree with) is: say nothing to her, say nothing to my brother, say nothing to her parents. Just sit and watch and wonder what is going on behind the scenes and permit more suffering.

Likely consequences: She cannot be informed about how to assist her condition or be given the chance to because nobody tells her that she has bpd traits. Her condition worsens with time. More chaos. Brother remains unaware that a mental illness is predominantly the reason for his wife's behaviour and continues to be confused about the problem. He remains unable to make an informed decision about his wife's behaviour since he knows nothing about bpd/traits and its origins. He becomes more disoriented and uncertain about truth/reality as the emotional abuse/manipulations/distortions continue. He becomes distant mentally/emotionally from his own twin sister and possibly even his parents. His health fails. His 2 year old son is very aware of his mother's emotional state and starts to become her caregiver.

I have not done a lot of psychology on my brother yet but it seems that on the face of it he is fairly conflict avoidant,  not protective enough of his FOO (immaturity) which she takes advantage of to bond over him with since she may perceive us as a threat, fairly passive, probably does not assert his needs enough. He is very bright but I also feel he does not fulfil his potential professionally as a scientist.

I did read that bpd women are attracted to 'nice guy' men/white knights and that these types of men are not assertive enough, that they lack the 'teeth' of other more possibly masculine/dominant men. What exactly the attraction is to these types of men I don't know...more lenient attitude = less likely to abandon? Is she mimicking the relationship her mother had with her passive father? Do these more passive men actually look different in the face/body language and this is the signal the bpd picks up? I did read on a blog that a man was able to stop the bpd behaviour of his partner(s) by acting more 'manly', setting firm boundaries and being more authoritative rather than allowing her to walk all over him and then probably discard him (for being weak?). You cannot feel secure with a man who allows you to walk all over him...you need someone who is able to improve you by challenging you whilst being supportive. Perhaps the weakness of the man makes the bpd feel even more insecure and the relationship fails from there.

I also read briefly that men attracted to personality disordered women confuse emotional intensity with emotional intimacy. It's possible that in my brother's case at the start of the relationship the desire to love overpowered the need to also reason (rationality). There is probably a lot to read on the psychology of normal attraction and then in the context of personality disorders...is something I intend to do after what I have seen. I am not in a relationship at the moment and I do hope to get married...I would like to arm myself with some knowledge to avoid any disasters myself.

What do I think stops him from being able to stand up to her or seriously consider his options? The prospect of divorce and breaking up his family with the emotional ties to his son, all the work he has poured into his property and the idea of being alone/single at 38 (which I actually think is ok for a man). Plus I think he is genuinely confused by her behaviour, because without knowing the origins it is absolutely mind-bending to witness. I also feel that her parents are trying to push them together no matter what (controlling), I sense they know about her condition. She did have a boyfriend prior to my brother, I wonder what his story is...

[Jareth89]

@No-one, my sil was the sole reason I saw a psychologist at the start of this year, in addition to the communication problems it caused between me and my parents. I have found therapists/psychologists useless to be honest, however i'm currently seeking a male psychologist to specifically discuss with him my concerns about my brother. The problem is that the dynamics are crazy...with sil being the start point, then brother acting strangely and then her parents coming into the mix who back their daughter whatever and also worryingly seem to influence my brother (but I don't know what they say to him). In December last year I asked my brother to get hold of a science paper for me and he was being obstructive and negative, doubting what I was doing (which is the attitude my sil had). So I told him i'd had enough of their bizarre behaviour that year and that my sil had a strange reaction when I told her about the positive news on my medical situation. He did look disconcerted when I said that (like he knew but didn't want to face it). At christmas we all met up at brother's house. Both her parents seemed a bit edgy towards me. MIL had moments of ignoring my brother which he noticed (how is that ever appropriate?). FIL at one point sat very close to my brother in a dominating fashion which to me was uncomfortable to watch. SIL acts as if she plays no part in this situation even though she is the prime master manipulator. As I leave and go to hug my sil, father-in-law is watching me intently to see how I will interact with her. None of this is appropriate for my family.

About my brother being attracted to her, I don't know how much if at all these traits were present at the start of their relationship. According to what some men have written, they can keep it under control until after marriage or when they have children, by which time it's too late. I certainly only noticed it last year though when I look back there were minor episodes. Why do bpd's isolate their husbands? Because they fear we will talk to him about her behaviour?

About him not interacting freely with me in her presence: he doesn't appear relaxed and is more fractious with me. I have noticed that she seems to enjoy it when he is less civil towards me. I just can't understand why she couldn't share in my good news (medical), why she couldn't want the best for me in that situation and why she couldn't genuinely show an interest/concern in developments. It was as if she she needed it to fail or needed me to be wrong about it. How absolutely inappropriate and bizarre? I think she has to devalue me in order to feel better about herself and one way to devalue me is to minimise my medical condition. She did tell me not to read too much into my symptoms at one point. I mean it's just bizarre interactions, I don't understand the underlying motivation. She did quite happily suggest that I might be wrong about the literature. She does have a need to devalue and undermine me. My family does not need this.

Last year I told her mum that I was starting a special diet (to alter gut flora), and she grabbed my arm and said 'your not', inferring that I was doing the diet to lose weight (i'm naturally thin and thinner than her daughter which I think makes sil uncomfortable). So I said 'no not to lose weight, for my health', and she immediately had to leave the kitchen and looked uncomfortable about the topic. It's just so perplexing.
At christmas I got onto a topic with her mum about being able to select the sex of your baby if you have had many children of one sex for example, and she immediately cut me short and said 'Our priority is H (their grandchild)'. So it looks like me getting married or having children is a threat? Sorry but i'm not going to allow my family tree to be joined to this insanity  , one way or another...

I'm sorry that you had to paint me the villain of your story in order to stay in the light and keep the onlookers in the dark. I have no desire to clear my name in your book of fiction. Paint me however you need to paint me so the guilt doesn't feel so heavy. I'm light as a feather

[Harri]

The advice given here (which I very much respect but not sure I fully agree with) is: say nothing to her, say nothing to my brother, say nothing to her parents. Just sit and watch and wonder what is going on behind the scenes and permit more suffering.

It is okay if you do not agree.  I do suggest reading more info on this site, specifically about the characteristics of BPD and associated behaviors in addition to the tools we offer here to aid communication in these difficult relationships.

If you choose to confront your SIL and brother with your diagnosis for her, it will go better if you understand the above and use the tools.  My personal opinion is that it will not work however, you know what is best for you and your family and you get to choose.  What we can do is help you figure out the best way to go about communicating with them.

You might want to spend some time reading over on the Bettering a relationship board to get a feel for what your brother is dealing with, why he may be responding the way he is, and even get an idea of whether or not he would be receptive to your warning about his wife.

It is true that things often do not work out well when people confront the pwBPD about their disorder.  Unawareness, denial, fear and shame will make self awareness and acceptance very difficult.  At the same time, we have plenty of stories where the pwBPD was talked to in a safe, controlled way by someone they have a positive relationship with.  I say that because if you want your SIL to hear you and receive the message you think she needs to hear, it is likely you are not the best person to deliver it.  I say that given the way you describe the dynamics between the two of you, not to make you feel bad.

I think the advice you have received here is more along the lines of slow down, learn, apply and practice the tools and then reassess.   

[GaGrl]

You have had a strong and close relationship with your brother, which you see as threatened by situations and dynamics in your brother's marriage. In addition, your brother appears pressured by those dynamics, and it is throwing your family dynamics out of balance. It must be frustrating to perceive these problems and not be sure how best to address them.

I am on the board because my husband's ex is undiagnosed NPD/BPD. They had a long marriage (the last year's they were  separated), and I came into family dynamics that existed before me, and the legacy will continue after me.

It is difficult to accept that you have no control over their family or marriage, or over your parent's desire to insulate themselves from their son's marriage. It can be painful to watch.

The reality is that, bluntly, it's not your burden to carry. Any control you have is over your actions and decisions -- and if those actions are other-directed (as in telling your brother what his wife's mental illness is -- which you are not trained or certified to diagnose), you must be prepared to accept the consequences of that action. Yes, if you go immediately to truth-telling, your brother might choose to sever contact with you. Yes, your parents might be upset and reject your message. Yes, you might not be able to have family functions together anymore.

My suggestion -- provide your brother a listening ear, non-judgemental and supportive. Assess how far along he is in acceptance of his wife's mental health needs. Encourage your brother to engage in regular and intense therapy himself (preferably with someone SKILLED in working with families involved with personality disorders).  Ask a lot of open-ended questions to allow him to talk.

Most of all -- focus on yourself. As you support your brother, what can you do to differentiate you and your needs and wants from those of your parents and brother? What are you taking on that belongs to you, versus belongs to and is under the control of someone else? Why do you think you can solve someone else's intimate marriage issues? Is that a realistic goal? Talk to a therapist about how to discharge pent-up anger and frustration -- and talk about boundaries that protect you from getting sucked into the vortex of someone else's marriage.

Spend some time up front on yourself, to be better prepared to support your brother on his journey.

[Notwendy]

My advice is based on my experience. It's a "what I wish I knew before I confronted my dad about BPD mom". I didn't have the tools on this board and jumped in with what I thought was the right thing to do. It cost me my relationship with him.

You don't have to agree with me. I'm only warning you of the risk that confronting your brother may lead to him cutting you off. I understand that you find this hard to believe. I couldn't imagine that my father would do that to his own daughter, but he did, and I believe it now.

This doesn't mean to say nothing or pretend there isn't anything going on. It's advice to wait, read and learn about BPD relationships, family dynamics and how to interact in the most emotionally stable way with a person wBPD who is likely to be a part of your world for a long time now that your brother has chosen her. It's because I wish I had the information here when I was dealing with my parents.

I also perceived my father as the innocent nice guy who was trapped and brainwashed by my abusive BPD mom and in ways he was. However, he lived with her from the day he married her to the day he passed away. I understand him not wanting to break up his family, especially when we kids were little. But he stayed long after we grew up and left home. He had the opportunity to leave her. I know he felt responsible for her, she is quite BPD and he felt she depended on him. He was a good man who would not have abandoned his responsibility. However, the abuse he endured was inexcusable. I would not expect anyone to tolerate this, no matter what responsibility one feels. There was more to this relationship than I understood.

For my father to have "seen the light" and left, he would need to have wanted to leave, and even if he did, the pull to this relationship for him was stronger. In some ways his need to be with my mother was possibly as dysfunctional as she is. They were a match in this. This was hard to perceive, but these types of relationships are hard to understand from the outside. I would say the same for your brother. He chose this. He lives with her. What you see of her public behavior is probably only a glimpse of what goes on at their home when nobody is looking. But only your brother can decide if he's had enough of it or not.





 

[Enabler]

Hiya,

I would agree with Notwendy, she's wonderfully wise.

THE WAY, and IMHO the ONLY WAY, your brother will come to agree with you and MAYBE act upon it is if he comes to this conclusion on his own. I suggest, learning as much as you can and being patient. As my therapist would say, "Some people just aren't ready to see what you see." I call it believing in unicorns. Some people are there and see them, some people live with unicorns every day yet don't see it, unicorns themselves are notoriously terrible as seeing that they are unicorns even when a giant mirror is held up so they can see.

I have a friend in my village, he was complaining (as usual) about his wife. I worked my way through the DSM and said "she does this right?", to which he replied "Yes" to most. Despite spelling it out to him, despite him agreeing with the spelling... still... "Nope". She even has family history and a father who attempted suicide... still... "Nope". He wasn't there and still isn't there. He still complains about his W's behaviour and how horrible she is to him. Yet, he excuses it all down to this that and the other. His Mum is a bit chaotic, as is his father. Maybe it's his normal, I dunno.

Similarly my best mans Sister in-law... similar thing, he described a BPD Queen to a tee, I sent him some stuff on it, his W even said "that's my sister"... They don't agree she has a personality disorder though.

Your Brother may well reach a point where she causes him significant amounts of pain, he will then search for answers, you can guild him then. Until that point I'd support your brother, you don't have to agree with someone to support them. My friends don't agree with me, they don't ask how I am and they don't want to talk about my marriage. They don't see what happens behind closed doors. Because they don't agree with me, they don't want to support me. They think that support comes when I do what they want me to do. Don't be like them. Support your brother WHERE HE IS, NOT WHERE YOU WANT HIM TO BE. Learn and guild him gently towards your knowledge as and when he searches for answers.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I wish I had known how to better support my father. I imagine my own wish to protect him was perceived as not being supportive.

I do wish, knowing that he chose to stay with my mother, that he had access to the tools on this board to help him in his relationship. However, he married her long before anyone knew about BPD, and there was no internet. They had many years between them before the internet was available.

He was a smart man, he knew, but he also knew that he had to turn a blind eye to the situation in ways if he wanted to stay married. Are you married? Because we all do this to some extent, not pay attention to the things a spouse might do that bugs us, like how they squeeze the toothpaste. Turning a blind eye to abuse is an extreme that many people would not ( and should not as we see it) tolerate  but it would be up to him and only up to him ( and your brother) to decide what to tolerate and what not.

[once removed]

minimise my medical condition

it sounds like this really bugged you. i dont like it when i feel like people are invalidating when i have a medical condition either.

what is your condition? what did she say? what did your brother say?

[Jareth89]

Thanks everyone for the advice so far. Notwendy, what would have happened if your father had asserted himself, disagreed with your mother where necessary and had his own opinions on matters? I have a similar dynamic with my own parents to a lesser degree. What did your dad fear by correcting her where she was wrong? Was he non-confrontational by nature or did he become like that as a result of being with your mum? In my own case I have observed that my dad becomes more like this as a result of the interactions with and influence of my mother. I don't know what my dad fears because my mum would never divorce him...yet he often takes the path of least resistance with her and of course a dictatorship is detrimental to any family and a great shame...life is so much richer when everyone's autonomy is respected and valued. I also observed that although her controlling behaviour makes him weak, she then seems to get frustrated with this weakness by criticising him for his 'sitting on the fence' attitude! She never understands that what she needs (security, protection, responsibility...) she destroys by making her man weak and subservient. Doesn't serve him and it definitely doesn't serve her...it makes her more anxious in the long run because she has nobody to tell her what she needs to hear to improve herself and therefore make life enjoyable. Nobody to improve her mind, which makes us more secure. I'm thankful for people to tell me what I need to hear to improve myself or my life, it means they care.

[Notwendy]

I can answer this from my perspective, but some of it happened when I was a child. I think my father's non confronting my mother was a slow progression. He did when we were little, but the results were horrific.

People with any amount of empathy or conscience are no match for my mother because she has no boundaries of how far she will go to hurt someone to get her way. But she's extremely calculating about this so she will not hurt someone physically because that would be evidence. So she hurts objects and is emotionally abusive. Because she is seemingly oblivious to the hurt in the recipients of her rages and manipulations, and because she is so calculating about what she does, I have considered she is on the sociopath spectrum.

When Dad stood up to her when we were younger, the results were horrible destructive rages. She would trash the house. There would be yelling and screaming. She didn't learn. She continued the same behavior because none of us had the lack of empathy she has and could not stand to dish out to her what she does to others. If she was angry at us, she'd confiscate or ruin something we cared about, like a favorite toy. As a teen, she'd even call up my friends looking for me and scream at me to come home right now, for no reason. With my father, she'd destroy his work papers, call his office and even show up screaming. She showed up at my teen job too screaming at me. She bad mouths us behind our backs to others.

Then, there were suicide threats and at least one attempt. But she's too smart to effectively do it - she would just make a show of it, but one time she caused such a scene in public with one, it must have scared the daylights out of my father.

I think over time, she just wore him down. Standing up to her didn't really work to make any difference, although giving in to her did reinforce her behaviors. Eventually I think my father decided he needed to do what he had to do to function. He can't be up all night with her screaming ( it was all hours of the night) and go to work the next day. He can't work if she destroys his work papers, calls him all day screaming, or shows up screaming.

I  stand up to her, but I have paid for it. She knows what matters to me and what mattered to me was my father, and after he died, some of his possessions and she made sure I wouldn't get any. My children: she's tried to enlist them and influence them with expensive gifts. Thank goodness it doesn't work. Now, she has nothing that I want and it is irritating to her because she still tries to manipulate me. She will ask "do you want my nice china" if I say yes, she'd use that. But of all the things she "owned" - the only one I cared about was my father. She's lost that power over me and it's puzzling to her.

However, if my father did that, I think he'd have to have left the marriage. She's severely disordered and ruthless. I don't think that's a workable situation. Its her way or nothing else, and to co-exist with her it has to be her way.

[Jareth89]

it sounds like this really bugged you. i dont like it when i feel like people are invalidating when i have a medical condition either.

what is your condition? what did she say? what did your brother say?

My condition is probably the most controversial and contested medical condition of the century. However, it is curable, the information is in the scientific literature, it's just that the pieces of the puzzle that are in the literature were not put together. There is also a major piece of the puzzle that is not currently written about at all in the literature. I had the fortune of being in contact with a scientist in an eastern country who had the condition, studied it for 7 years solidly and discovered the bacterial cause. He discussed with me a lot of information including the major missing link currently not known to scientists and not written about. I shared this information with a woman in the US (a computer programmer) who also has the condition - she has read the literature extensively also. She is now in contact with a well-known researcher over there and this researcher will be presenting the evidence and her personal case at a conference this year. There are around 6-8 other currently incurable medical conditions that can co-exist with this controversial one, the reason is they share a common cause and can all be cured.

I was a previously very athletic person and I got my medical condition when I was in my mid-20s. I had to give up unfortunately. My condition affected my career and academic study aspirations (I trained in science). It also affected my personal life (relationships) because I couldn't give everything that I wanted to. So I self-imposed a relationship ban until I could cure my condition. Probably not the best idea but I probably had perfectionist tendencies. My sil works in the NHS (uk) and therefore knows what the current medical attitude/treatment is for my condition (it isn't a treatment, it does nothing because of misconceptions). She has never really asked me anything about my condition, no curiosity about the symptoms etc. She assumes that I exaggerate my symptoms and that because I read the medical literature, that I am a hypochondriac. When I showed her one of the papers and said I was going to infectious diseases she blurted out 'Fix K...H  are we going to fix K?'. H is my nephew who was in the room at the time. She has never asked me anything about it since. My sil fabricates symptoms occasionally in order get attention (I have a cold, I have a sore shoulder...said in a child-like voice), so maybe she thinks my mind is the same as hers and that I am just attention seeking.

I caught Norovirus from them when she and my brother were ill and I visited them. I ended up in hospital, mostly with dehydration but with my current medical condition, it made me weak. I complained to her slightly that I can't be exposed to anything like that again, given the effect it had on me. In the days afterwards she didn't ask me if I was better, despite me tending to their needs when they were sick.Then on a couple occasions I couldn't meet up with her due to a symptom flare that day so she went out with my mum instead. She came back to the house but didn't really acknowledge me or ask me how I was. Next my mum and I were summoned to her parents' house...they imply that we haven't been paying enough attention to their daughter and also that this is deliberate somehow. The focus of their conversation always has to be about their daughter...it can't be about anybody else or what somebody else is doing. I tell her father about my upcoming visit to infectious diseases and he says 'Oh, so they are taking you seriously then'. Fil doesn't seem excited or enthused by the news but maybe I have an expectation of how ppl should react. Sil had told them I was not going to be taken seriously.

For a few months afterwards I noticed that anytime I talked to my brother about what I was doing, he was negative and dismissive, one occasion asking me what the point of it was and 'What's changed in x years?'. Also that I was the 'world's worst patient' and that I was 'only looking in the literature because the doctors can't help me' (I work with a doctor). It's the exact opposite of how a brother should react if his sister's condition can be cured. Why can't they be happy and interested for me? Well, it's quite clear that she talks very negatively behind my back to him and does a good job of brainwashing him so that he ends up just repeating whatever her sentiments are. I've read of a number of cases like this on bpdfamily where the husband just absorbs whatever the wife is saying without even thinking for himself...I just didn't know that level of influence was possible, where he doesn't own his own mind anymore. How she achieves that I don't know, but it's tiring for me to watch. One time my brother complimented me on a top I was wearing and she (sitting next to him) developed the bpd stare and leaned into him as if the compliment to me threatened her bond with him in some way!

Basically her modus operandi is to work behind the scenes with smear campaigns on me whilst remaining mostly pleasant to my face. Whatever she says behind the scenes she cannot tell me to my face (but I get it via my brother and her parents), and the intent to get you back for things you haven't done is executed with witch-like quality. But then if her world revolves around her own needs and she has impoverished empathy, what else can I expect? Since I realised she has bpd traits, I have found this discovery about my brother's wife stressful and shocking. It caused a massive rift between me and my parents (who were averse to talking about it) and my health suffered a bit and deadlines missed, so I guess i'm just angry because I was happy and focussed prior to this. It really messed me up because I had nobody to talk to who would understand the seriousness of this and my concern for my brother and his son.

When she is dysregulated or unhappy, she will make me the problem. Her parents absorb whatever she says is the problem and deliver it back to me. Instead of her parents seeing her as the problem, they think that if their daughter is upset I must have caused it (it's never her)...if she is unhappy about her looks, I trigger her because I'm thin etc. I also think they have undue, unhealthy influence over my brother.

[Notwendy]

the husband just absorbs whatever the wife is saying without even thinking for himself...I just didn't know that level of influence was possible, where he doesn't own his own mind anymore. How she achieves that I don't know,

Yes, this woman sounds a lot like my BPD mom. Not only is she able to get my Dad to ignore his own reality, she gets others to do that too. While I described in my last post, her extreme behaviors, nobody except my father and her children have seen it. In public, she's charming, lucid and together. She has many admirers. Nobody would believe us if we told them, but we were not allowed to tell anyone. We'd be punished if we did.

My father was an intelligent man, accomplished in his field. Yet, he was able to somehow pretend that "mother is wonderful" and that what we saw didn't happen. In public, he sang her praises. It was like the emperor with no clothes, only I was the one who thought the emperor was naked and nobody believed me.

About illness in general, my mother isn't interested in anyone's illness except her own (often imaginary ) medical issues. When I was a kid, I had the usual kid illnesses, but they mostly inconvenienced her. My father passed away after a long and serious illness. She had no empathy for him. There isn't a way for your brother to show attention or empathy to you. She sees that as competition. Please don't take this personally.  Your brother likely isn't able to show attention to you. It took me a long time to understand that my father's relationship to me wasn't personal to me. He had to live with her and if he wanted a moment's peace, he had to comply with her wishes.

[Notwendy]

When she is dysregulated or unhappy, she will make me the problem. Her parents absorb whatever she says is the problem and deliver it back to me. Instead of her parents seeing her as the problem, they think that if their daughter is upset I must have caused it (it's never her)...if she is unhappy about her looks, I trigger her because I'm thin etc. I also think they have undue, unhealthy influence over my brother.

Apples fall close to the tree. Her family is part of her drama triangle. She probably grew up in one. This is her "normal "

You get to be the persecutor in their drama. Once you see this, it becomes less hurtful when you know it is how they operate. She's victim. Her parents and your brother are rescuers.

[Jareth89]

Notwendy I do not know how you survived that...I know I couldn't. My brush with bpd trait sil seems trivial compared to what you wrote. She is more passive aggressive however and I reckon my brother gets a lot worse that I don't know about. I'm sorry you went through that.

[Notwendy]

Thank you, it was awful. However, nobody besides immediate family sees that side of her. I hope that your SIL isn't that abusive, but I do believe that people outside the most intimate relationships don't see the whole of it. BPD is interesting in that it affects the most intimate behaviors the worst. So the spouse and often the children get the worst of it. Less intimate relationships don't provide the emotional triggers - the pwBPD is able to maintain their persona better with people who don't have the opportunity to look too closely.

We had a lot of resiliency factors too. We stayed with my father's family sometimes and that got us out of the drama briefly, which helped but mostly we were subjected to her behaviors. School was also a safe place. We did well and got a lot of positive validation at school. Sometimes a little bit can make a difference to a kid with this kind of parent.

[Jareth89]

Notwendy, in the scenario that I try to explain to her and my brother that she has this condition, I'm unsure about who to tell first. If I tell brother, he may be able to use the information to realise that this is what he is experiencing (he knows the behaviours but not the name of the condition or even that it is a condition). If I tell sister in law and she is not receptive, it gives her a chance to start brainwashing my brother to make it impossible for him to even consider the 'diagnosis'. I don't think that we can continue to interact like this as a family without this coming out into the open. It's not safe for my parents or me, especially considering that her parents seem to enable her (her mum definitely has traits, don't know about father but he enables daughter). What an impossible mess for my good family to be in. I will also need to get my own parents on my side...they are afraid of what her parents will say. I have to say the bpd behaviour is out there in the open, it's not being hidden. I can't try to help her or improve her if I don't tell her what it is.

I have a feeling that their daughter might know she has this, that she has already been diagnosed. I thought about coming up with an experiment to put the word 'borderline' out there and see if there is some interesting reaction from her. If she isn't diagnosed and is unaware of her condition then she shouldn't react. For example I could mention Madonna's song 'Borderline'  

[Enabler]

Again I say, you are considering a VERY dangerous path where I fear you will come off way worse, worsen your brothers situation and get no closer to the outcomes you think are good.

Can you run through step by step what you think will happen if a) you tell your brother b) you tell your sister in-law

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I'm not telling you what to do- choose this route if you wish, just be prepared to have your relationship with your brother ended if you do, because this is a possible outcome of your plan.

The advice I have posted is a "what I wish I knew when I did this" advice.

Some of what I did was something I felt I had to do- when my father's medical care was possibly compromised.  When a situation is a serious urgent threat- then we need to take action.

If the threat isn't imminent, I would stay stick around and learn for a while before you speak.

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338375.msg13066580#msg13066580