Any other "ENABLERS" out there?

[Piper15]

moderator's note - This thread has reached its post limit and has been locked. The topic is continued on.
 

My 15yo daughter uses me. I know she's doing it, and I let her. I keep telling my husband it's self preservation. Example: she uses a vape/ecig. I don't LOVE IT, but I don't FIGHT IT. (I also use one, I quit smoking real cigs because she kept stealing them)  The other day, in one of her MOODS...she jumped into our pool fully clothed - and ruined the Vape she had in her pocket. Then expected ME to get her a new one, or give her one of my old ones.  I said NO. She persisted, I said NO. She KEPT persisting, and I got so tired, that I just gave her my old one.  Any other parents out there that do the same thing, just to "keep the peace"?  

I know in my BRAIN that Im not doing her any favors, by allowing her to have the upper hand, but literally...when I say no to her...she does CRAZY things. (cuts herself, threatens suicide, attacks her siblings (most of the time only verbally) ruins things in my house - to name a FEW)

I got the referral letter yesterday to put her into a residential program. Im partially relieved, and partially TERRIFIED.  I know she needs full time treatment for her...but I'm struggling with it.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FaithHopeLove]

Hi Piper
I know what you mean about it sometimes seeming like giving in to our children's demands is the easier way to go. Sometimes I give in too. But really it only makes the problem worse. Once they know there is a breach in a boundary they go for it again and again. In the long run it really isn't the easy way.

Going into residential treatment sounds like a major step. I can understand you feeling conflicted about it. What is it you are most afraid of? What is it you are most hopeful about?

[Swimmy55]

I raise my hand because I have been an enabler.  It almost cost me my home and even my life, though. 
I know you have mixed feelings, but it is great that your daughter can go into residential.  It was provide a safe place for stabilizing and getting the dysregulation under control.   Most of all , she and you all , will be safe.

[wendydarling]

I know she needs full time treatment for her...but I'm struggling with it.

Piper do you want to share in what way you are struggling with this to see how we can help, what are you TERRIFIED of?

My 30DD is a quiet pwBPD. She's never placed 'demands' on me, no sense of entitlement some parents describe here, verbal threats... At 16 she got a Saturday job, it's like a right of passage here toward adulthood, financial independence. I know this is not on your agenda right now, just being thoughtful of your thread 'any other enablers out there'.

I wonder if we are enablers, co-dependent if we do not affect change with our children who struggle and are reaching out for help, to be understood?

WDx

[PeaceMom]

It has been a horrendous week w/DD19 uBpd. I have helped her try to find a new used car and we have been together driving for 5 hours today. She vascilates between crying and speaking very loud in my ear about how I am “stupid” and don’t understand anything and f*** this and f**** that. Today she said she feels like she has no emotion any more, zero and then she said she feels like she has multiple personalities.

It was all straight out of the books we read.

I enabled her and gave her another entire day of my life and now am horribly resentful and am feeling envy for those whose pwBPD do not live with them.  Isn’t that bizarre, I’m actually wishing I had a different kind of kid w/BPD? One that was quiet or “invisible” BPD who lived thousands of miles away. 

[Bluemoon23]

 

That's me. Yes an enabler. Yes I made excuses. Yes yes yes.

Last week I had enough. And now I am going to support not enable. I have to do this for them for their future and for myself.

I have tried every which way to move my son on to adulthood and I am now trying a new and different way.

I have to keep doing so so I can find what works the best to keep the relationship. Otherwise it will be pain and hate for all. I don't want to hate my son and I don't want him to hate me. That was the path we were on as I continued enabling him and making excuses.

I hope you can find a way to do what is right for her and your family. Stay strong.

[Piper15]

I am terrified that she'll hate me. I'm terrified at how my other kids will react. I'm mostly terrified that it won't HELP her.  At the same time, I'm relieved because she won't be here to influence my other kids, and she won't be here to make demands of me, and of our home. She won't be able to do whatever she wants anymore, and I can stop walking on eggshells.

We get the "results" of her full psych eval on Aug 26th...and I can't WAIT to hear what they have to say. Its too early to diagnose Bipolar...however, I am CERTAIN she has it. She's been manic for 4 days now...and has slept MAYBE 5 hours in the past 4 days. She's completely out of control, and not even living in reality.  This mama is TIRED.

so tired...

[Bluemoon23]

Hugs! I know about tired. Good luck with all you have happening. It's a difficult and hard journey and it's good you are able to post and share.

[Enabler]

Did someone mention my name?

Sorry, couldn't resist... 

Enabler

[PeaceMom]

Oh Piper,
Mania is a beast. It can destroy a household. Been there done that. She needs to see a doctor if she’s manic. Sleep is critical, as you know. If it gets too bad, then an E.R. Visit may be in the cards.

It’s hard to bring down mania with out patient visits, but it can be done. We tried for about 3 weeks to stabilize our manic BP kid last fall but we couldn’t do it at home under doctor’s supervision.

Take care of you, it’s like having a giant, never sleeping toddler running around.
Hugs,
Peacemom

[wendydarling]

Piper  

You share, I am terrified that
~she'll hate me, where is your H? Is he on board, joint responsibility, you both have time to prepare the right messages for your DD.
~how my other kids will react. Is this about you preparing them and giving them hope?
~I'm mostly terrified that it won't HELP her. Have you read lbj's record of her journey, with her 12 yr old DD? It's about sourcing the right residential, find 3/4 and get on the phone, whittle them down, you'll find one that is right, go interview your final choice, option.

At the same time, I'm relieved
~because she won't be here to influence my other kids,  
~ she won't be here to make demands of me, and of our home.  
~ she won't be able to do whatever she wants anymore,  
~ and I can stop walking on eggshells.

We get the "results" of her full psych eval on Aug 26th...and I can't WAIT to hear what they have to say. Its too early to diagnose Bipolar...however, I am CERTAIN she has it. She's been manic for 4 days now...and has slept MAYBE 5 hours in the past 4 days. She's completely out of control, and not even living in reality.  This mama is TIRED.

As Peace says an ER visit, it's hard to be proactive when we are TIRED, perhaps your H can lead on this?
Peacemom, thank you for sharing your BP experience and advice with us, it really important cos BPD is co-morbid and my DD has self diagnosed BP2 - 3 months depressed, 3 months can rule the world and she's fed up with it, it's not BPD, and she's also searching OCD. She's waiting for psychiatrist appointment to get herself sorted, meds too.

Piper, my experience these last four years is putting in place project management, like I do at work, and more.

You can do this, get your DD to a better place, small, gentle steps.

WDx  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[wendydarling]

Did someone mention my name?

Sorry, couldn't resist...  

Enabler

Ha, yes we did. Spill the beans Enabler, right here. Share your wisdom with us.

How come you chose the name and what have you learnt here?

WDx

[Enabler]

Morning WD,

I chose the name because I realised that I had perpetuated my W’s dysfunctional behaviour. The relationship I have with my W is something of an arms race where she will decide she NEEDS something unreasonable which someone she knows might have, then generalises to suggest that everyone has this. This could be tangible or it could be lifestyle related but always costly from family resources perspective. It’s pretty much wholesale from ‘not from concentrate OJ’ being a must to a career change for 1/3 of the salary. Each NEED is mutually exclusive and no other factors are really considered (even though she would suggest they are)... she just can’t see the bigger picture especially when it comes to consuming time and money.

I have in essence been the balancing item in our family. I wear old clothes when she wears only new, I stay in and look after the kids because she’s out. She goes on 6 holidays a year and I go on 2... I have tried to put boundaries up but she has a way of trampling them down. I defend them, they’re trampled again. I defend them more aggressively, I’m abusive. I made critical errors in the formative parts of the relationship which meant I fell for her suggestions that LOVE = XYZ. “If you loved me you would do _____________”. That line all on its own is one of the most sadistic lines in a relationship, especially for someone with a white knight complex! It ties together love with something utterly arbitrary like... a Mulberry hand bag. She knows which cliffs to push me towards so that I will ask for mercy, I’m working on disarming those “threats however it’s like having a pillow fight with someone with a gun whom you know will use it... you’re never going to win because I’m the end she’s going to shoot me in the face.

My W confuses Pity with Love, her mum showed affection and care for her when she was sick or injured and contempt for her when she had success or achievement. Parental love was shown by then meeting her demands, rather than providing her skills to meet her own wants whilst providing for her basic physical and emotional needs. She learnt the art of manipulation by provoking pity to get her wants (whilst she felt as needs) met at the expense of her parents... whom then resented their sacrifice. Pity therefore felt like love since that is where good things came from. It’s tough to fight against this.

I have many times used the analogy of a burden bag. Each of us has one on our backs. It’s physical work, it’s worry, it’s responsibility. My W stuffs things in my bag or removes from her own bag and drops important things on the floor and walls off. I feel compelled due to wanting to avoid bad outcomes to pick these things up, because generally they are things that will hurt me as well. So now she has a light bag full of fun, I have a heavy bag full of rubbish. I’ve gone through a process of tipping out my burden bag and being very selective about what I put back in... when she finally realised that something she tipped out thinking I would pick up is still on the floor and seems dumbfounded that I didn’t pick it up, I metaphorically stand there pointing and saying “oh look, your sh!t is on the floor, how did that get there!”

Bestest

Enabler

[PeaceMom]

Enabler,
Thanks for sharing. This is a different perspective for me as I don’t read the other boards bc im so consumed parenting kids w/MH issues.

Are you resigned to live this way? I relate with your metaphor as my one DS w/BP1 is a black and white thinker who is determined to live a full normal life which means he requires a ton of help and puts most of his stuff in my bag. I’ve gone along with helping and assisting with almost all aspects of his being bc his BP cycles have diminished a lot of his cognitive function yet his full desire to be “normal” and fully functioning is still high.

What kind of boundaries can you create? Are you the breadwinner?

Thinking of you today!

[Enabler]

I don't really have the luxury of being able to determine the outcome these days. The irony of the cycles and me trying to maintain boundaries is that my W now deems me to be abusive, and I guess from an outsiders perspective I could well have been deemed abusive if you took my eventual defence in isolation. So, my W being the perennial victim wants a divorce and has started the process by petitioning (filing) after having an affair and setting up a replacement... That said, I have changed my ways somewhat and taken her by surprise, rather than enabling her divorce by being proactive by making the divorce happen and moving out etc etc (where she would inevitably turn round and blame me for the divorce which she herself said she wanted and started), I have done work as legally required by the process, returned forms in a timely manner but left all the heavy lifting to her. She needs to make this happen if she wants it... and it's emotionally challenging for her.

If and that's a big IF she were to decide not to continue with the divorce things have to be different now. I've discovered the enigma machine now, I can see what is going on and how I play into it. There's so many similarities between very young kids ( I have D10 / D9 & D6) and pwBPD. I used to react badly to the insanity of kids mainly because they triggered memories of events in the past with my W. The completely irrational behaviour of a 5-6yr old flip flopping between I love you to I hate you in a 10 minute period... it's just pwBPD are in bigger bodies, know more cutting vocabulary and have access to more dangerous ways to play out their emotions. I've learnt a whole new set of techniques to deal with my kids and genuinely parent them, I've learnt ways to respond to their tantrums rather than react to them. I've learnt ways to self check my own emotions when I'm running hot and cool myself... it's good... it's really really good. If I was allowed the opportunity to reconnect with my W I believe it would be a different experience, one where I was eyes wide open to what I can and can't receive from her and what the dynamic of the relationship was. I would also be more aware of ensuring I managed my own truth rather than allowing someone with disordered thinking to shape it for me... she is a compulsive liar who believes her own lies. It would be different, it has to be different.

Your S needs support, but I think it's important to define support. Support can be doing things for someone (1), it can be doing something alongside someone (2), it can be coaching someone how to do things (3) and it can be providing emotional support, encouragement & PRAISE for someone who is doing something for themselves (4). In an ideal world we as parents move from the first example to the final example as our children grow older. I have attempted to do more and more "doing something alongside someone" and "coaching someone how to do things" with my girls. I take the mindset of 'why would I do something you are physically able to do'... it might be considerably easier, less messy and less mentally draining to do things myself, but that's kinda not what parenting is about, it's about bouncing that ball back into their court even when they come up against a wall, making them deal with the setback, making them chew through setbacks to come out the other side and see achievements. Do things for them needs to be seen as a last resort. It's the hardest thing to resist stepping in and taking over... it's truly emotionally difficult FOR YOU (and me).

Think of it this way, if you bake a cake with your S. If you do most of the baking to "help him out", you're actually robbing him of the opportunity to claim success of baking that cake. He now has to share the accomplishment with you. What type of things do you think you can hand back, leave on the floor, wait till he says "Mum, why is this on the floor?". What do you think his reaction might be to "I'm happy to work with you to get that done, but it's your business". Also, which areas are you assisting in at the moment where you can take a step back and not assist with. Maybe number each 'thing' you do and aim to push each 'thing' on to the next number to actively reduce your HELP, but maintain your SUPPORT.

Enabler

[Enabler]

Oh... yes, I am the main breadwinner, my W is the main spender, despite telling herself that she doesn't care for material things. She's degree educated and once earned more than me, she made multiple career changes over the years consistently seek more vocational jobs yet didn't adjust her own expenditure. FWIW I was happy to take a share of the financial hit of the changes for the collective benefit of the family... but it never seemed to work out like that, the burden of cost seemed to land on me whilst she took all the benefits of greater work/life balance.

[Bluemoon23]

@Enabler - thank you for sharing your story. The pity thing resonates as this is something I find my son doing a lot. It seems he wants to always be a victim and he perpetuates it. He also is a very concrete black and white thinker and I cannot for the life of me ever engage in conversation that changes this. It feels like banging my head against the wall.

I have to change the way I talk with him and I'm working on that. Currently he is out of the house and we are not speaking so that gives me a chance to breathe and sort out things.

May I ask how old your W is? And you sound like an amazing Dad.

[PeaceMom]

Blue-I totally agree and am so pleased Enabler shared on this board. The black and white thinking is what I believe to be a cognitive issue. It has to be the way their brains are wired.
It is exactly like banging our head against a wall trying to understand their rationale or heaven forbid, change their thinking. So confusing to parent this!

[PeaceMom]

Wendy,
I’ve been researching OCD and BP together. I saw compulsive and obsessive thinking in my son very early on, but since it wasn’t ritualistic actions, I disregarded it bc he had other bigger challenges like sensory issues. Has your DD tried exposure therapy? I read that they should treat the BP mania or depression first, but exposure therapy has good results in pwOCD.

My DS BP1 has recently been on a 30 day antibiotic for acne that comes from Lithium and I’m thinking it has added to his OCD thinking.

[PeaceMom]

@Enabler,

I like your 1-4 example of gradually decreasing support. I think in neurotypical folks that’s exactly how things work. We were able to do this exact process with my 2 who are not having cognitive issues. It’s my 2 w/cognitive dysfunction that have all the normal desires typical for their age group, but no ability to see their own limitations. 

My Bestfriend’s son is 30 and has a severe auditory processing disorder. He lives with her, has worked at a grocery store for 14 ys, got his Associates degree.. He’s quite content and satisfied with his life. I am envious of their lifestyle even tho he has this huge disability. My DS24 BP1 desires everything any 24 y.o. would dream of-college degree, satisfying career, car, travel, wife, kids, house, dog and is constantly trying to move toward these goals- WITH MY HELP! Ugh.

His always slightly  manic state creates urgency in him that creates huge anxiety for me.  I think the 1-4 approach is the only way to reduce support and I will continue to try this w/both my kids. I will have to work on my anxiety bc I do not sit well with their neediness and distress when we are together hours everyday.  Thanks again for your insight

[Normlee]

Oh yeah, I enable and then I can be resentful for having someone so dependent on me. I hate conflict and emotioanal turmoil. To have any kind of an interaction let alone a loving relationship with a pwbpd - conflict and or emotional turmoil is a given. So I cave in to my sons self pity, blame, fear... I can tell myself I'm doing it for him because he's hurting but I'm also doing it big time for myself because it's easier for me. I really need to look at this in myself and start making little changes. I loved the 1 through 4 progression of empowering. Thank you guys for your posts.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Enabler]

Blue-I totally agree and am so pleased Enabler shared on this board. The black and white thinking is what I believe to be a cognitive issue. It has to be the way their brains are wired.
It is exactly like banging our head against a wall trying to understand their rationale or heaven forbid, change their thinking. So confusing to parent this!

From what I understand black and white thinking or catastrophising comes from the fight or flight mechanism in all of us. It’s designed to ensure that we make decisive decisions bucketing dangers as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ quickly. This happens to all of us when we reach a certain level of emotional arousal... it’s just that when you suffer from emotional sensitivity you’re at that level practically all the time. It’s staying I. This heightened state of arousal that leads inevitably to the behaviours, some as a function of impulsive thinking, some as a way of stopping or salving emotions that are unbearable.

Bluemoon, myself and my W are both 40.

Enabler

[PeaceMom]

This Black and white thinking topic led me to the “Dont JADE” page. I just read thru the entire Dont J.A.D.E. Workshop again and almost all comments are from people in a romantic relationship w/pwBPD.

It was very helpful to me bc those folks have a choice to be in those relationships -unlike us parents. Their insight is amazing. It honestly sounds like timing is everything w/pwBPD and if they are dysregulated we must not JADE. There is no changing their mind or defending ourselves. I’m going to try this today w/DD uBPD.

Wondering if I should use a similar approach w/DS BP1 w/Black and White thinking. I have wasted a million words on this kid trying to show him Gray is an option to no avail.

@Enabler, should I stop trying to show him that Black and white thinking is making him miserable? (He doesn’t rage or get crazy dysregulated so it’s more difficult to tell he has cognitive issues so I continue to reason with him as though he’s “reasonable”!)

[Enabler]

It was very helpful to me bc those folks have a choice to be in those relationships -unlike us parents. Their insight is amazing.

True in some respects but not in others. Many of us have a lot invested in relationships not least children whom we may get restricted access to post a messy and costly divorce. I know for example that I will have to maintain a relationship with my W even if we get divorced on the basis the kids are so young.

Regarding JADE, definitely stop doing it. Kids aren't stupid, they know what they think and you convincing them otherwise isn't likely to change their minds. How many times as an adult have you felt strongly about something, someone has confronted you about that strong feeling and you've changed your mind... rarely I'd imagine. As adults, we spar with each other, we can have discussions and we can accept that each person has a different opinion but we're happy to exchange opinions... I want to convince you, you want to convince me. We call it a debate, a discussion or even just a conversation. We might be black, someone else white... but we can accept that. People with Black and White thinking can't see the grey, they're either fighting, or they're running. They either love something or they hate something. JADE links well with validation, your Son says "why didn't you iron my socks the way that I like them ironed, my feet are going to fall off now, you obviously don't love me enough", to which you respond "I did them the same way as I usually do, I might have been in a bit of a hurry and missed a pair, of course I love you"... you've just inadvertently told him he's wrong, you've told him what he perceives is true is not true... what he hears is that you're a liar and you've just told him a pack of lies and that you definitely don't love him. SO... metaphorically he's thrown a punch, and you've punched him back.

There's  thing called Ju-Jitsu parenting I love. It's designed primarily for adults in parental alienation situations but really it's helpful for dealing with any child (or adult) in an emotional state.

www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf

Rather than push against conflict by trying to return the punch, you use the force of the punch to pull the child/adult off balance e.g. "why didn't you iron my socks the way that I like them ironed, my feet are going to fall off now, you obviously don't love me enough"... "Oh, maybe I did miss a few, I didn't realise you saw sock ironing as an expression of my love for you, I was thinking you could iron your own socks"... EXIT STAGE LEFT. Like you say, stop wasting words saying things to him he doesn't believe anyway. It's much the same as someone telling you to cheer up or snap out of it!

Enabler

[PeaceMom]

Enabler,
Thanks for the wise words. I hope my comment wasn’t off putting about the relationship thread. Of course there are so many reasons people choose to stay in these relationships. Honestly, my DD19 uBpd is an adult so I guess I’m “choosing” to stay, as well, as I could put her out of my house and even cut off communication-it is a tiny bit freeing to convince myself I do have a choice to allow her to live here with me 24/7.

I will try the jujitsu approach. dS’s B w thinking is more like -only beautiful, fit, rich people find true love, I’m just an average guy, so I never will” “only people who’s parent get them job connections, get good paying, rewarding jobs”, “only German cars are good enough to drive”, “the young to mid 20s are the best years of life, once you are past that it all sucks”,
“If I don’t weigh xx lbs, I’m fat and ugly”.
This is the kind of stuff I hear most days. I despise it and it’s hard to validate the underlying insecurity all day everyday (he doesn’t rage or scream thank goodness.

Thinking about paying for him to have TMS at a clinic. His brain is broken!

[Enabler]

How do you normally respond to those comments?

All of them are true to some extend, albeit you have a greater probability of X if you're Y.

What would he do if you said "Hmm yes, good point, life sucks, what you gonna do about it?"

His life does suck for him, it is rubbish... likely through his own doing but he's unlikely to see that. You telling him his life shouldn't suck is just reinforcing to him that he is broken.

Enabler

[LoveOnTheRocks]

I got the referral letter yesterday to put her into a residential program. Im partially relieved, and partially TERRIFIED.  I know she needs full time treatment for her...but I'm struggling with it.

Piper:
This is an awesome thread giving great discussion, but I wanted to encourage you on this residential program.  If you believe the program could/would be helpful to your 15yrold, then I really encourage you to stand firm and do it.  I know your child (if like mine) will give you all sorts of shade and probably it will be brutal to have to insist, but ANYTHING good she picks up from this experience will be one more tool in her toolbox.
I found NO resources like this when my now DD20 was 15 and the alternative is not pretty, because due to my daughter having difficulties making and keeping friends, those e cigarettes went to drugs and kids who steal for a few years.  She has decided against drugs and doesn't' use now, but the years she was with this crowd (15-19) were fraught with trouble and a criminal charge to boot. NOW IS the time to use any good resources available to you.

[PeaceMom]

Enabler,
I always give concrete examples -“X has an American -made car he’s driven for 10 yrs w/o a problem” “Y got that interesting, well paying job thru headhunter with no connections” “Z is happily married with a beautiful family, yet you said he was an average guy”.
I’m a glass is half full person so I always see a bright side, it’s my nature. I truly don’t believe “life sucks” so although saying it gets it off my plate onto his, it isn’t my true thought.

Thanks for helping me think thru this stuff. I’ve been dealing with this everyday w/him for 15 yrs. Confusing as heck to parent.

[PeaceMom]

Piper,
What did you decide about Residential? Your Enabler question has been very thought provoking here, but you were also wanting feedback on RTCs, right?

[Bluemoon23]

@Enabler thank you so much for bringing your wisdom and lived experience to share. It's very insightful and helpful.

I love this:

  Our    goal    for    our    emotional    brain    state    is    a    calm,    relaxed,    confident,    secure,    compassionate,    understanding,    loving    and    accepting    brain    state.        No    worries,    everything    is    going    to    be    okay;    oh,    my    goodness,    I’m    so    sorry    you’re    upset;    what    can    we    do    to    make    it    better?        Invite    criticism,    invite    repair.

I am going to save this Ju jitsu parenting as it really resonates and I can see how I have contributed to my son not feeling heard or supported when I'm constantly feeling I have to defend myself.

Thank you!