19 yrs marriage to high functioning bpd, how to move forward?

[Witz_End]

Hi!  The system seems to prompt new members to post as they join... so, here I am.

A long road brings me here.  I really don't know how to sum it up well enough.  After 19 years of marriage, the past few months have been full of realizations unravelling understanding... first the recognition that depression which plagued me was rooted in suppression from my wife's behaviors and patterns, echoing suppression I had felt as child growing up (albeit through different mechanisms).  Then, as I turned with more clarity to picking apart those patterns, the realization that as I broke them down and searched for a reason, a high functioning borderline personality disorder made perfect sense.

I had had this image that it was uncontrolable and indiscriminate and it never had crossed my mind, because it's always been clear that while my wife does react internally to others, it's always controlled and beneath the surface, not the indiscriminate, visible anger and drama I think a lot of people associate with BPD.  No, it was controllable because it's been reserved for me, so it didn't make sense.  I wasn't aware that BPD could be "high functioning" in a way that didn't manifest like the stereotypical image.

So much fits, though.  I stood there in a Barnes & Noble aisle breaking down into tears reading things that completely hit home in uncanny ways.  So much fits and things that don't resonate seem to be explained by the difference between high function and common.

It's a huge struggle, though.  I'm at the end of a rope and recognizing that if things don't change, it means resigning to more and resigning myself to suppression and depression.  At the same time, it's intensified lately to the point where I fear one or the other of us could, on a volatile night, do something really stupid.  Fights have become horrible because years of my own suppressed emotions have kind of brought out a tendency in me to want to "bite back" in a sort of self-preservation.

But, my biggest fear is that she won't seek help.  As I understand is common, she has a sharp mistrust of counseling and fragile trust that would not allow for opening up with a therapist.  She's also stubbornly certain she sees herself with clear  insight, even as I can see where she creates blindspots.  On top of that, she takes pride in some things... she has a name for her "dragon" (anger) and jokes about how people she knows (who haven't directly seen the force of it) have told her she "terrifies" them as she's described it or shown mild pieces of it to them.

So, my biggest concern is how to move forward.  To a degree, whether to move forward.  I'm wrapping my brain around it and faced with the conflict of the relief of greater understanding and the horror that there is no good approach or likelihood help will genuinely be sought.

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[itsmeSnap]

Hey Witz_End

Welcome to the boards! 

I fear one or the other of us could, on a volatile night, do something really stupid.  Fights have become horrible [...] kind of brought out a tendency in me to want to "bite back" in a sort of self-preservation.

Safety first! - Domestic violence safety plan

When things have escalated even if nothing "stupid" has happened yet, its good to have a backup plan.

So, my biggest concern is how to move forward.  To a degree, whether to move forward.  I'm wrapping my brain around it and faced with the conflict of the relief of greater understanding and the horror that there is no good approach or likelihood help will genuinely be sought

Getting a partner to seek help can be difficult as it is often interpreted as an accusation (something's wrong with you!) or they see it as a strength: "her dragon".

My bpdexgf also said her being able to detach instantly after falling too deep for someone was a strength of hers. Those traits (not to sound rude but probably your "suppression" as well), however dysfunctional, I'm sure got them through tough times.

You mentioned she "reserved" her outbursts for you. Can you write a bit more about what that's about?

[Witz_End]

When things have escalated even if nothing "stupid" has happened yet, its good to have a backup plan.
Getting a partner to seek help can be difficult as it is often interpreted as an accusation (something's wrong with you!) or they see it as a strength: "her dragon".

My bpdexgf also said her being able to detach instantly after falling too deep for someone was a strength of hers. Those traits (not to sound rude but probably your "suppression" as well), however dysfunctional, I'm sure got them through tough times.

In a neurolinguistic programming (NLP) book I read once, it pointed out that even dysfunctions have function.  It's very true.  Anger has function.  Her dragon has function.  Whatever dysfunctions any of us have do.  I think a problem that happens, and is the case here, is when you turn a blind eye to the negative effects... as perhaps BPD's do in a version of splitting.

In other words, personifying things as "her dragon" it can be treated as a person through the black/white splitting lens.  Seen as serving her, a blind eye can be turned to the negative and the flaws of her dragon.

When I say suppression I mean suppression of me.  In other words, if you take the obvious of anger... anger can serve to suppress others.  It's a deterrent and one she uses.  If she makes a topic third rail, she knows I'll back off and not want to return to by it.

You mentioned she "reserved" her outbursts for you. Can you write a bit more about what that's about?

She controls herself around others.  If someone pisses her off, they don't know it (though I often get the vent about it after).  The visibility of her BPD symptoms increases the closer a person is to her and the more of herself she let's out in their view.  This is why it didn't even show to me until after we were married and why I say things I read about "common" or "lower functioning" BPD don't apply.

It's an echo of things in her family as well.  Her dad was extremely volatile at home, but controlled it outside the home to be viewed as the "good guy."  Her maternal grandmother had a tendency to treat those further from her like kings and queens (as if to draw them closer) and mistreat those closest (as if taking them for granted).

She asked me years and years ago what she could work on in herself.  The intensity if her angry expression was the first thing coming to mind.  Her response was "No.  Muting that side of my passion mutes the upside of it.  I will not."  A few years later, when I sought out our pastor at the time for counseling and he sat down with us to help us unpack baggage, he asked me what I struggle with.  Again, I brought up the intensity of her anger and when he asked her about it, she clammed up, stayed calm, stayed noncommittal, then raged at me later about how he had taken my side and was doing the typical Baptist "man is always right" and refused follow up appointments. Later down the road, counseling came up and her response was "I'll be damned if I'm going to sit in front of someone who doesn't know me while you make me look like an angry person."  So many times, she's hurled "oh... but, I'm an angry person" comments at me, ironically in rage.

Flip side.  She is not abusive with the kids on the whole, but sometimes a bit of anger and frustration comes out on them or in their presence.  She asked them the same question she had asked me... "what can I work on as your mom?"  They each independently said the same thing... her temper.  Her response was that she would and as a way to do so she forced herself to apologize to them anytime she raised her voice.

She'll have paranoid thoughts or interpretations when it comes to others, but she will not tell or show them those thoughts, so the outside world doesn't see them.  She vents them to me, which gets touchy because I have to watch my step, lest she tear into me if it seems I am taking their side or trying to correct her perception... which, technically I am in that sometimes I see where she is probably misperceivjng something and try to help her consider options that wouldn't lead to damaging her friendship or relationship with others.

It's a lot like someone who is on a deeper level aware of their actions' effect and how it makes them look and who keeps that under wraps for the public, but brings it out with varying levels of closeness.

[Ray2017]

I just wanted to say that as I read your posts, I was nodding emphatically the whole time.  My H is high functioning as well, and has similar things - holds it together in front of people (with a few exceptions), then rages about them to me.  He can be paranoid, too.  I will say this, and I'm sorry if this sounds negative - therapy can certainly help and I hope your wife decides to get help.  However, my H has been in therapy for 11 years, recently completed a long-ish stint at a residential treatment facility and still thinks the vast majority of his problems/reactions are solely because how other people treat him, me included. I am trying to get to the point of accepting he is not going to change until he is cognitive on how he pushes and hurts people, and he is solely responsible for his actions.  These boards (and books like Stop Walking on Eggshells) have helped me understand that I can only change myself.  Sometimes that feels empowering, other times it feels completely overwhelming.  Clearly, I'm still struggling with how to deal with it all, so I don't think I can offer you any specific advice, but wanted you to know you are definitely not alone.  People have been so helpful and kind on these various threads, which has been comforting.  The articles and especially, I think, the workshops, have been very helpful to me.  I hope you find comfort and help here as well.

[itsmeSnap]

She vents them to me [...]
but brings it out with varying levels of closeness

There's some "positive" to take from this I think, or maybe I'm an optimist to a fault:
I think my dad has some bp traits, the outburst got out of control sometimes over seemingly simple things (ie: using the wrong pan to cook, us not being in the car already the second he was done getting ready, even if he took hours himself).

It was always something at work that set him off, and only after the "episode" against us would he talk about it, always complaining of course. My mom would dismiss it, like telling him he didn't do anything about his coworkers treating him badly. Obviously that didn't work to reassure him, so he would be on edge whenever he came back: now mom was a trigger as she was not as supportive as he wanted, and anything she did was "wrong".

Anyway, after they separated I would get the job complaints from him. It seemed odd but it was always sort of the same complaint: I'm not appreciated, they are incompetent, everyone else sees my work as valuable except for them. And he was kinda right to be honest, but the rage was unjustifiably extreme for such small grievances.

So long story short, I started "siding" with him. Work complaints were an easy out for me, as I could both validate him and safely "scapegoat" them: yes, they were wrong, and they are troublemakers making things harder on themselves, just like he thought.

Whenever things got tense at home I would ask about work, he would vent about it and I would do the whole "let them roll in their own mud, they had it coming", as in, don't engage, don't push them to "do the right thing", they don't want to, they don't see things like you do, you are better off.

He caught on, I noticed he started saying these same things himself after the complaint, he could resolve the "issue" himself now (or at least not be carrying it beyond the "reasonable") and he would be his happier self after that. Episodes got fewer and farther between, and now they are pretty much non existent, or they resolve within minutes when they happen.

That closeness you mention I don't think its her "out to get you for being so close", I genuinely think she's her most vulnerable with you precisely because of that. Being vulnerable, specially when you're trying to appear composed for the whole world, means that getting hurt in those moments sting much more than getting it from anyone else, particularly when emotions are high due to personality traits like bp.

I think a problem that happens, and is the case here, is when you turn a blind eye to the negative effects..
[...]
She asked me years and years ago what she could work on in herself.
[...]
Her response was "No.  Muting that side of my passion mutes the upside of it.  I will not."
[...]
She asked them the same question she had asked me... "what can I work on as your mom?"
[...]
It's a lot like someone who is on a deeper level aware of their actions' effect and how it makes them look

So its not really a blind eye is it?

She sees something very valuable in that, a strength that bubbles over from within her. Her "passion" drives her to "not be taken advantage of", to defend herself, to do what needs to be done. Or maybe I'm wrong and she's pure evil  even the devil is charming and composed to get you to sin and into eternal damnation right?

she tear into me if it seems I am taking their side or trying to correct her perception... which, technically I am in that sometimes I see where she is probably misperceivjng something and try to help her consider options that wouldn't lead to damaging her friendship or relationship with others.

It's a matter of perspective: How she perceives the world and her interactions with others, and how you perceive the world and your interactions with her and her interactions with others.

Could you also need to consider options that don't damage your relationship to her and hers and the kids?

Yes, the conclusions from her interactions may be flawed and causing damage. The thing is, if the damage is "contained" from the world (from her "composure", your "correcting her") and landing right at home, having your kids on edge and undermining your relationship, is it really worth it?

Wouldn't you let someone else take the hit/blame, someone who would not see the depth of it and who will probably not even care if they did, like I did with my dad and his "ungrateful coworkers", instead of your family having to carry a burden its not even caused by you to begin with?

You're supposed to be a team, a family, a "tribe" of your own. Nothing brings people together more strongly than a common challenge/foe   . Having her be "the one with the issue, the angry person" is making her the enemy, she's left feeling targeted, needing to defend herself, on edge.

Like we both mentioned, being angry has its uses. So what if she's angry at the world? as long as she's loving at home does it really make much of a difference? Even the kids can get a lesson out of it, sometimes you have to stand up for yourself to not be bullied . Makes sense? Sorry I'm no parent I'm not qualified to be giving parenting advice .

"No.  Muting that side of my passion mutes the upside of it.  I will not."

This gem of insight on her thought process stood out to me quite a lot. Has she talked to you more in depth about what that "upside" really is/means for her?

Also, what kind of change are you looking for? I know, vague question, so I'll lead it a bit: you and the kids mention "her temper", what about it is scary? would it be "not scary" if it was just directed at others, like her "composure"? If not for those two, what else is remarkable/passionate about her personality that you could "suggest" as an alternative upside instead of her "dragon"?

Sorry if I seem all over the place, I write these in "bursts" and I'm interrupted constantly so its not a single train of though here

[Witz_End]

I think my dad has some bp traits, the outburst got out of control sometimes over seemingly simple things (ie: using the wrong pan to cook, us not being in the car already the second he was done getting ready, even if he took hours himself).

This sounds a lot like her dad, actually.  At least, as he was when they were children, because he had either mellowed over the years or they/we are now outside the circle of people he shows it to.  He still is very keen on telling stories that brag about his anger and communicate "you do not want to cross me."  She does that exact sort of thing.

But, with him, she recalls things like the time he blew up at her mom and dumped a whole bowl of taco salad over her head because she put the chips in with the salad and he had told her before that that makes them soggy.  He was also a stickler for them being ready and ready early to go somewhere, which is something she cites (understandably, for the most part) as a reason she flips out when she can't find a pair of shoes and we need to go somewhere.

So, I see echoes of that coming down through her in ways she sometimes mirrors his tendencies and other ways she is triggered in response to situations that are reaction to childhood trauma.

It was always something at work that set him off, and only after the "episode" against us would he talk about it, always complaining of course. My mom would dismiss it, like telling him he didn't do anything about his coworkers treating him badly. Obviously that didn't work to reassure him, so he would be on edge whenever he came back: now mom was a trigger as she was not as supportive as he wanted, and anything she did was "wrong".

Anyway, after they separated I would get the job complaints from him. It seemed odd but it was always sort of the same complaint: I'm not appreciated, they are incompetent, everyone else sees my work as valuable except for them. And he was kinda right to be honest, but the rage was unjustifiably extreme for such small grievances.

So long story short, I started "siding" with him. Work complaints were an easy out for me, as I could both validate him and safely "scapegoat" them: yes, they were wrong, and they are troublemakers making things harder on themselves, just like he thought.

Whenever things got tense at home I would ask about work, he would vent about it and I would do the whole "let them roll in their own mud, they had it coming", as in, don't engage, don't push them to "do the right thing", they don't want to, they don't see things like you do, you are better off.

He caught on, I noticed he started saying these same things himself after the complaint, he could resolve the "issue" himself now (or at least not be carrying it beyond the "reasonable") and he would be his happier self after that. Episodes got fewer and farther between, and now they are pretty much non existent, or they resolve within minutes when they happen.

Point taken and I think there is value to that.  I'm beginning to learn that living with a pwBPD requires being a sort of jujitsu master... roll with the force of their energy, then redirect it if needed.

The problem is the balance in that sometimes the second part of that process is needed, especially where things are affecting you.  I don't feel that it's a healthy solution to become, essentially, a "validation machine."  I do see where you subtly helped him connect the dots and that is that "redirecting of energy" but sometimes finding that way of subtly connecting those dots isn't easy to find.

That closeness you mention I don't think its her "out to get you for being so close", I genuinely think she's her most vulnerable with you precisely because of that. Being vulnerable, specially when you're trying to appear composed for the whole world, means that getting hurt in those moments sting much more than getting it from anyone else, particularly when emotions are high due to personality traits like bp.

I agree.  There are two factors that I think apply and that's one of them.  The other is the reason for it:  that someone close to you is more invested in the relationship, therefore more likely to put up with more.  It's human nature.  The more we commit to a bond, the more we tolerate.  If an acquaintance pisses you off or breaks your trust, it's easier to cut them out of your life.  The threshold is lower.

As a result, whether you have BPD or not, it's human nature to mind our p's and q's more with people outside of our close relationships and allow more of our flaws to show to those close.  We all do it.

So, I think one factor is the trust in the individual and another is the broader dynamic of human nature.  In this case, A. Level of trust in me as an individual and B. Level of trust in the investment that raises the threshold (ie. marriage).  The latter is the same reason a lot of people say "things changed once we were married" - partners are more likely to let guards down and show things once that investment/commitment is made.

And that did happen with us.  I did not see the first signs of any of this until shortly after we were married.  There was no disproportionate rage before and I never saw any negative splitting (positive, idealization may have appeared, but may have been viewed as just the intensity of new love we both felt).  Nothing seemed out of place until after we were married, which suggests at least part of it had to do with investment that made it less likely I would leave.

And that's the root of BPD, right?  Fear of abandonment.

So its not really a blind eye is it?

She sees something very valuable in that, a strength that bubbles over from within her. Her "passion" drives her to "not be taken advantage of", to defend herself, to do what needs to be done.

Not a blind eye in that they don't know.  I agree it's in there, but I think it's often obscured to themselves by themselves, pushed more into the subconscious, except possibly when they split black on themselves and pull out knowledge of their own behaviors as a way to self-flaggelate.  But, even then, just like views of other peoples' intentions or motives can be skewed, I'm guessing the why's of their own behavior may be.

Just my own guess... I think a difference between high functioning and low/common functioning BPD is level of awareness.  It seems to me that the deeper into BPD a person is, the less aware they are, therefore the less discriminate they are about who sees.  When someone only shows it to those close, somewhere inside they must at least be somewhat aware there is something negative, dysfunctional, not appropriate or societally acceptable to a behavior.

In their more conscious thought, I think they just find ways to justify it... ie to personify it as a "dragon" inside ("not me"), then excuse the dragon's dysfunction by idealizing the dragon based on its protective function.  When you idealize the dragon (split white), the negatives are pushed into the subconscious when you are wired to not process both negative and positive at the same time.

This is all intellectual fodder, I know, but picking these things apart as concepts also helps me to be able to understand and process things.

Could you also need to consider options that don't damage your relationship to her and hers and the kids?

Of course, that's the ideal.

Yes, the conclusions from her interactions may be flawed and causing damage. The thing is, if the damage is "contained" from the world (from her "composure", your "correcting her") and landing right at home, having your kids on edge and undermining your relationship, is it really worth it?

Wouldn't you let someone else take the hit/blame, someone who would not see the depth of it and who will probably not even care if they did, like I did with my dad and his "ungrateful coworkers", instead of your family having to carry a burden its not even caused by you to begin with?

You're supposed to be a team, a family, a "tribe" of your own. Nothing brings people together more strongly than a common challenge/foe   . Having her be "the one with the issue, the angry person" is making her the enemy, she's left feeling targeted, needing to defend herself, on edge.

Like we both mentioned, being angry has its uses. So what if she's angry at the world? as long as she's loving at home does it really make much of a difference? Even the kids can get a lesson out of it, sometimes you have to stand up for yourself to not be bullied . Makes sense? Sorry I'm no parent I'm not qualified to be giving parenting advice .

I think validation is a valuable tool and I agree in some sense with what you're saying, but it comes a bit back to what I feel about becoming a "validation machine" for the sake of placating.  It can lessen the damage and that's great.  It can also help build trust that can lead to being able to possibly work toward some sort of change.

I think part of my struggle with placating for the sake of placating is that it feels false or lacking in a certain integrity on one hand and leads to a feeling of one-sidedness on the other, like a doormat.  It's a bandaid, in a sense.

Something that adds to things is a way that I am wired.  I can be extremely empathic/sensitive in an environment.  I used to work in a night club and could sense a shift in tone or friction starting.  It was like the air changed and I suddenly felt heightened awareness.  At home, we have a son who plays video games and vents all his frustrations strongly in a stream.  For me, it's like it fills the house and quickly starts to affect me physically.  It sucks out energy and can be felt almost like a physical oppression.

I've described it to my wife as... "It's like both you and C are antennae broadcasting a really strong radio wave and the energy of it hits me.  At times, it can feel like a physical assault."

So, even when it is not directed at me, it affects me strongly in ways that aren't often visible.

This gem of insight on her thought process stood out to me quite a lot. Has she talked to you more in depth about what that "upside" really is/means for her?

Love, compassion... the wonderful things about her that I fell in love with.  The opposite of the polarity.  Just as she can feel and express absolute rage, she can express absolute love.  Just as she can turn against you in anger, she can turn against others in protection of you.  It's about the intensity of feeling and the idea that that feeling can go either way.

But, in a way, it's also... if you stop splitting people black and white, you lose the feeling of both sides of that coin.

I've gotta kinda leave off there.