Is it doomed or do i keep trying. Does this sound like BPD?

[bradio]

Hi I am looking for some support around what to do next. I feel isolated and alone and can recognise already I have signs of co-dependency.
We met 18 months ago. She was all I had ever looked for as was I to her. It was amazing. The sex, conversation, interests and energy was off the charts. I dated her for 4 months before pulling the trigger as I wanted to be sure we were compatible. She passed with flying colours. She was ideal and loved, needed and wanted me so much.
3 months in we moved in together and that is when I first saw the emotional shifts(rage, anger, over the top crying and tantrums mixed with maniacal laughter and excitement). It was quite the ride. I also thought as she had been abandoned by everyone else(adopted at birth, abused by foster parents, and no real other family) I could be someone to help her and show her I was in for the long haul.
I had been at work and she told me she would do the housework. When I got home nothing was done and I said something. She started to cry and then launched into a barrage of " if I need self care that will come first" etc. When I asked her what she had done she said meditated and played the guitar for 2 hours. It then escalated to threats of self harm until I settled her down enough and backtracked on what I had said.
There were 4 other incidents where this came to a head. One around her not doing the dishes, one around not locking the house, one around not telling me prior to sleeping in the same bed as a male friend and one around her work commitments and if she was going to be late or picked up an extra class that she would tell me. Two of these led to break ups and this is the third time I have called it off. This last time was the hardest as I had asked that in future if she was to sleep in the same bed as someone else I would like to be considered before the event. She believed what I was asking for, which I believe are just basic considerations in relationship, were to much of a burden on her freedom and autonomy. She also wanted to practice tantra with other people which has always been a non negotiable with me and one of our primary issues.
She was so considerate to start with and all I was asking for was consideration around decisions she made that would effect both of us. When she was down she always wanted my consoling and comfort but when up she wanted to do her own thing. She was constantly going away and spent almost 60 days of our last 90 together away. We would talk but the distance was growing as was her annoyance at me wanting some safety and security around what was going on for her and with us. My tone was wrong and her friends understood her but I now didnt. There would be endless chats about new careers and moving away only to come back to not much changing. I wrote down 9 changes in career in the space of 1 month. She had no long term friends and yet was able to meet and make friends very easily disclosing great detail about herself unlike me.
I miss her presence and comfort but not the head miles of the constant changing of wants and needs daily.
I said yes to everything and in the end gave her a share of my house, the ability to work from home, the ability to do some renos as she didn't like the house as it was and the ability to come and go as she pleased work wise.
I feel like i supported her wants and needs around work, career, friends and home life always and for the life of me cant work out where it went wrong. It all changed so quickly. We would be crazy in love about each other only for her to call me controlling, jealous, stuck in my patterns and a poor provider in the blink of an eye. She would frequently utter things under her breath when we would argue but just loud enough for me to hear and she would always hit my buttons.
I don't understand why I am so attracted to her still but I am. It feels like she is in my DNA.
We broke up 6 weeks ago, 3 days before we were meant to go to Hawaii. I couldn't bring myself to go but she went and had a great time. I rang her while she was there and she had met someone who had invited her to stay at her place after knowing her for a day. It is all very foreign to me and until I found this site I had no idea what it was about.
Does this sound like BPD? and if so is there any hope or do I just cut my losses and try to move on without her. I am so sad as I thought she was the one.  Any suggestions or information would be greatly appreciated as I feel very lost. Cheers. Bradio 

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[ColdKnight]

Brotherman,

I am not an expert. All I know is from what I have researched over the last year after the girl I was with ended it abruptly. We got back together this April and it is over again.

I’m not going to bore you with the details. If you are interested you can read my posts. I basically felt the same, soul mate, never felt this way about a woman before etc etc.

She sounds like she could very well have BPD. She definitely has something going on. Her behavior is not normal.

The two big fears the pwBPD have are abandonment and engulfment. It seems by moving her in you may have satiated her abandonment fears but triggered her engulfment fears. It’s a total catch 22.


I have posted this before but from what I have read and in my experience with my girl this is what I firmly believe.
There are only two ways that a relationship with someone like this has a chance of working:

1) The pwBPD (or whatever they may have) is self aware and actively seeking and participating in counseling along with their SO.

2) SO is willing to accept them the way they are. The constant hot/cold push/pull, the lying and deception (not all of them do this but mine did). You have to be able to give them the space when they want it and recognize when they don’t want it and pull them back. Mine told me once to pull her back when she pulled away. I left her a message one night telling he that this was me reaching out to pull her back. She ignored me for three weeks.

Most pwBPD wont do option one and it takes a super strong person to endure option two. I wasn’t strong enough. I thought I was but I just couldn’t take it anymore.

You could be doing one or the other or both and things seem to be going along great and then...something shinier comes along and she leaves you in the dust...

I still miss her though...

[bradio]

Thanks coldknight. It does help to some degree. She would always come back after a fight and change the details or issue to suit. If I disagreed I was gaslighting her and if I agreed she would listen intently and then sink the slipper in to either change or negotiate a boundary.
She had a way of manipulating the seemingly simple to a point where I would be questioning my motives and boundaries.
The incidents I have described all seemed fairly innocuous to me. (ie dishes, cleaning, locking up, notice if she would be late) but they all resulted in major fights where I was at a loss to understand what was happening as all I was asking was for some support and consideration. These things have always been accepted by all previous partners I have been with. Common courtesy I think.
The first threat of suicide with the scissors after the housework issue scared me and perhaps she used this as a tool as the threat would always make me change what I was doing to make sure she was ok.
It is so tough when I still do love her.
I agree with your comments re abandonment and engulfment.
She is in therapy but not for BPD. It is with better help counselling. An example of her behaviour was when we did a joint session(at her request so her counsellor could see how awful I was) with her counsellor and during the session she cried and raged about the housework stuff again and me being so rigid around wanting a clean house. After the counsellor, who she was with for 12 months, took my side on a couple of issues she sacked her and got a new one as she now wasn't supporting her needs and didn't understand her the way she wanted or needed. She has had 5 jobs in the 18 months we were together and is currently unemployed and believes people/employers don't see her value or what she wants to contribute on a global scale. It all seemed a bit much that every employer she has had has not valued her after a few months.
I don't think I am strong enough either and in the end my mental and emotional health was shot. I was so empty when i asked her to leave. I couldn't do anymore for her and said yes to everything. In terms of control I never said no to any request she made so also struggled to accept this control, jealousy commentary she would launch into any time I would ask her direct questions. How do I move on and get her out of my head and heart? She really did a job on me as my family and friends cant understand how I would still consider being with her especially given what she has put me through already. The bottom line is for some reason I still want it to work and miss her deeply. It makes me feel awful to think I would keep doing this to myself. Thoughts?   

[ColdKnight]

I completely understand how you feel. In spite of all I have had to deal with, lying, silent treatment etc I still miss her and still want to be with her. Part of me still wants to give her another chance but I know it will end up the same.

All my friends say “you are better than that. You don’t need that. Move on. Find somebody new”

You and I both know it’s not that easy. Right now I don’t want anyone else and if I could “just move on” I would.

Getting on this site and reading other’s situations and sharing mine has really helped. It has really helped me understand there is probably very little that I can do to change her feeling.

As cliche as it sounds I think it just takes time. I am much  better off this go around than I was a year ago when she ended the relationship. I was a total wreck then.

It still hurts, I still miss her a lot and I still doubt myself wondering if I had only answered a text a certain way or didn’t take so long to answer a phone call or wasn’t so needy, maybe things would have been different. Deep down I know that I may have been able to buy a little more time but ultimately it would end up the same way...

I had to end it completely and for good by sending a text that was not kind and called her out on all her behavior. It pretty much guaranteed that we will never get back together but that is what I needed. It probably wasn’t the best thing for her but I needed closure and at this point needed what was best for me.

I’m not recommending you do that. That’s just what I had to do.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear bradio-

The crux of EVERYTHING is what you said in your last line...  “makes me feel awful to think I would keep doing this to myself”

So I’ll ask you to close your eyes for a bit and sit with that thought.  And if you can, Move on THAT thought and nothing else.  Why is this okay with YOU?

If the story of your relationship were the story of your best and closest childhood friend, what would you advise him to do?

This is NOT a “run” message.  This is a message to take some space to learn about you and what is driving you in this relationship.  Perhaps Consider seeing your own T for some exploration and clarity about yourself.

You CAN continue twisting yourself inside out until everything you thought you knew about yourself and your values become distant memories.., or you can push the pause button, feel some sadness, some anger, your OWN feelings, and come to understand what codependency is about.  It’s NOT an easy journey, but it’s worth the travel.

And THEN, if the feelings SHE has are real, and she agrees that suicide threats are NOT acceptable negotiating tools in a relationship, you can re-enter and “lead” the relationship to more healthy ground.  The way it’s been moving is NOT a direction that appears healthy, happy or sustainable... does it?

In my relationship (6 years next month), I found that it wasn’t until I hit the absolute bottom and truly addressed and understood MY stuff that WE got better.  Nothing changes until something changes.  I changed and he responded to what I was doing, to what I do.

I love and cherish him deeply, but I’m no longer afraid of losing him.  Despite the fact that we’re both 61, he has childlike characteristics; and there’s a fine line between asserting “control” vs boundaries around his hurtful behaviors.  Nothing I “do” will remind him of the horrid punishment he received as a child.  And nothing he does will take me back to what happened to me.  We now have that level of trust.  Today we do... but he has BPD traits.

I hope you do this for YOU.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[bradio]

Hi Gemsforeyes,

Your feedback is appreciated greatly. When I do ponder that thought of why is this ok the main thing I consider is her. I do not want to make her life more difficult and feel some responsibility or obligation to help and not abandon her like others have. I am just not sure how I do that without hurting myself or ignoring my needs.
I have started therapy and it is helping in some ways to address my co dependency issues. This was also something my SO suggested I do when we broke up but I wasn't sure if it was to hit a mark or she meant it.
Can you expand on what you did to address similar issues you may have had so I have something to go on and how you applied that to your relationship. I certainly get that nothing changes if nothing changes and am open to doing the work on myself however long that takes. I am struggling with the feelings of being alone and missing that intimacy/closeness that comes from a loving partner.
Do we both need to do the work for it to have a chance? I had no problem setting my boundaries at the start but they all became blurred with the injection of the fights, moods, volatility and her ability to make me think the boundaries I have are unrealistic or unfair when in reality they are fairly safe, normal boundaries. It really messed with my head and for the life of me I cant understand much of it at the moment. In my other relationships I haven't had the same issues occur. I have been married previously for 12 years with very few of these issues causing any major problems.
What would the work look like for her if she was interested?
I am also having trouble with the fact she appears to have the ability to just move on and I am stuck in the what ifs and why's of what happened. I still find it hard to believe I am where I am right now given how certain I felt that she was the one and we would have a life and family together. It is a daily battle but I haven't made/had contact for over 5 weeks.
Really appreciate the support and any other information you can provide would be helpful.  Many thanks, Bradio

[bradio]

For a little more information I should advise her birth mother has schizophrenia and her twin sister has bi polar so perhaps the chances of her having some kind of illness may be increased slightly by these factors. 

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear bradio-
Yes, let’s work through some things here.  I need to run out to “hold a baby” and I’ll be back in a few hours.  We’ll talk in a bit.

I look back at my 19-year marriage to a man with NPD and now see how I absolutely twisted myself almost beyond recognition at times trying to keep him happy.  I knew it then... I hear my own words in therapy.  “I don’t want to stand in the way of his happiness.”  And then did it again during the first 5 years of the relationship with my uBPDbf.  And then I woke up and figured out my real role in all of this.  And things are so much better now.

For me, it’s about learning to feel my OWN feelings.  Not easy...  and I know I still think about what others need where they would never consider what I need.  And luckily my uBPDbf is also codependent!  So we’ve got that!

So maybe have a good look at yourself.  If it’s not too painful (that’s a hard one, I know),  Look back at your marriage and your rs with your gf and see where YOUR feelings ARE or are NOT allowed, so to speak, and how you’ve dealt with that.  It’s a place to start.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Gemsforeyes]

Also, here’s the thing about codependent behavior.  For me at least... it can be truly crippling in relationships if you don’t get it under control.  I see the way my FOO (family of origin) lays everything on ME because they all know I’ll pick up the slack and do the dirty work.  And I do...  and if something goes wrong, I’m the fall girl.  And of course, I apologize for everyone else’s stuff.  Always have.  Even yesterday!  But... I did it with full awareness.  Where 6 months ago, I wouldn’t have known why, AGAIN... I was apologizing for something that seemed like a setup.

So you see?  When you get to know you, the wool is lifted from your own eyes and it’s quite the freeing feeling.  Doesn’t mean you call your 87-year old NPD mom out on her manipulative behavior, but you sure as heck could if you were a meanie.

Gems

[bradio]

Thanks again Gem,

I do relate with the FOO stuff as well. I am called on to settle and fix things when things go awry. I did and do have a habit of apologising for things that aren't my fault on top of taking full responsibility if I have made a mistake. I have no issue saying sorry and have done so both in my marriage and this relationship said the words to settle and smooth what was going on because I knew that would fix the immediate problem even if it caused other issues later on. I didn't know how to deal with her volatility or changes of heart any other way.
My concerns were always to keep her happy and do what she needed to feel safe. Yet whatever i did was never enough or done the way she wanted or needed it. I was driving myself crazy trying to work out what would make her happy but as she didn't really know what she wanted or needed in lots of situations how could i. So I can relate to that stuff easily.
It makes me think I have a lot of work in front of me when I read some of the posts.
I would also refrain from speaking about what was happening for me, until I couldn't at times, and that would always cause problems. Everything always ended up being about her and my needs were rarely considered which I obviously accepted for large parts of the relationship. I take responsibility for this happening. Is this the work I have to do? I have always considered relationships require sacrifice and i am an all or nothing person so when i am in i am in if that makes sense. I have a real feeling of making decisions to help support the relationship even if at my expense at times. I also have a belief that all relationships at various times are co dependent where we lean on our SO at times and they lean on us at others but we are trying to help each other along our way.
When i consider my ex wife she did have addiction issues so if i am honest some of these behaviours were present then as well but not even close to the same frequency or depth or intensity. We parted given we were married very young and wanted different things as we grew. She did have an affair towards the end which also sealed the deal as it was a deal breaker for both of us. For the most part it was a very amicable split. We had no kids and did a 50/50 split on everything we had. It was a difficult time but not by comparison to what is happening with my current relationship(ex possible BPD partner). The depth of the emotions and feelings are unlike anything i have experienced before and we were only together for 18 months. Is this normal for someone in this type of a relationship Gem?
What do i do about the bit of me that still believes it could work and that doesn't want to let go Gem? 

[No-One]

For a little more information I should advise her birth mother has schizophrenia and her twin sister has bi polar so perhaps the chances of her having some kind of illness may be increased slightly by these factors. 

Just a personal opinion, but I say there is a lot more than a slightly increased chance that she is bipolar, like her twin. BPD behaviors don't stand alone.  Most people with strong BPD traits have multiple mental health issues. Depression, anxiety and bipolar are just a few examples.

I don't know about the statistics, but if you read enough posts on the "Parents & Sibling Board" you will notice that the problem person isn't usually the only one in the family with issues. One observation I have made is that it appears that when someone has mental health issues that aren't successfully managed, that the stage is set to evolve to having strong BPD traits.  While there are children that have extreme behavioral issues early on, I think the majority of people on the relationship board are dealing with those who evolved to having BPD behaviors . 

[once removed]

What do i do about the bit of me that still believes it could work and that doesn't want to let go Gem?

i was in the same position, though my ex broke up with me. i held onto hope for some months.

you learn to live with it, as well as an openness toward the idea that it may change.

belief that it could work will not be enough. if its going to work, its going to take an honest assessment of the reasons why it didnt, and what is going to change.

there have been a number of makeups/breakups here. they do increasing damage to a relationship over time, and it is more difficult to build trust and to get on a healthier trajectory. additionally, it sounds like there are some real differences in values and compatibility here. can those things be reconciled?

[bradio]

Thanks no one and once removed,
the feedback regarding family members is helpful as I was unsure if genetics would play a minor or major role in her case. I will research a little more in the family sections.
Once removed the question you pose is accurate in that we do have fundamental differences in values now yet when we got together the goals, values and direction were all similar and agreed to. We were looking to get a house, start a family and have a relatively normal, stable relationship. I have had my own business for over 20 years and she secured a good job with a defence contractor. The tantra was off the table as we decided to keep that just for ourselves and the yoga, massage, inner child, and personal development work she was doing were going to be left to her availability as the defence job was demanding in that she was the business development manager for the company. We would still practice yoga together but she would only do cover classes for studios when the time allowed rather than teach regularly. Same applied to the massage and inner child work. We were on the same track and then it started to change for her. I have always been very constant and focused hence having my own house and business for so long and am relatively happy with my lot. She seemed to like this aspect of me to start with as it made her feel safe and secure. I also work odd hours which allowed us to spend plenty of time together through the day which we both loved.
As it changed for her and the constancy of having a house and different responsibilities associated with being in a relationship she also decided she wanted the freedom and autonomy to do what she wanted when she wanted regardless of the impact these decisions would have on me. She also said she wanted to start doing tantra with other women and put that back on the table. I was not open to this option even though it was less threatening to me than her working with men. It didn't make me feel safe in the relationship and I was able to voice that. To me that is the mindset of a single person and one I had when i was in my early 20's not late thirties. That is not to say you shouldn't be an independent person with your own interests and friends however it does mean you consider how your decisions may impact your SO. That is how I have always been in my previous relationships, which also doesn't mean I wont do things I want just because my partner doesn't want me to but I will consider how it may effect them/us and will certainly take that into account as the relationship is a priority when I make a decision to commit to someone.
The changes occurred fairly quickly for her and would filter from I want to do what I want when I want without consequence back to I want to just be married and have a family.
The last week of our relationship is a classic as to how difficult it was to make sense of any of it.
She was in tears about the fact that all she really wanted was to be married and showed me some writings she had done asking and putting out there(manifesting) that I would ask her to marry me when we went to Hawaii. 2 days later, when fighting about the sleeping arrangements with other people of the same sex and me being uncomfortable with her sleeping with other men in the same bed, she was saying she just really wanted to do what she wants when she wants and thinks it would be best if she was single. I didn't argue and said I cant be upset if that is what she wants. In the morning she was begging me to give her another chance and what she said was out of anger and she didn't mean it. I believed her again and we got back together that morning and then later that same morning after we had both cried and got back on track she raised all of the same stuff around the sleeping arrangements and the fact she should be able to do what she wants and I just have to trust she will do the right thing by me. I was so angry, as I thought it was resolved as I had asked if she was in that position again that she consult me prior to making that decision and she said she thought that was a reasonable compromise, when it came up again and was so exhausted I said I had had enough and she would have to leave. We had also just purchased some flooring and decking for renovations at the house so as I say i thought we were tracking really well with the issues around house chores and basic consideration being relatively minor issues for me. My brain just doesn't compute these shifts which was almost a polar opposite to the marriage, children and renovations she was so set on just 2 days earlier and it happened so quickly for her. This was not unusual but was escalating to the point where I was so confused about what I should do. I was running on empty and was completely exhausted just trying to keep up with her shifts and trying to work out how I could fix this situation as I love her deeply and wanted her to feel safe, secure and happy. Most of it then became my fault(I am controlling, narcissistic, jealous, stuck in my patterns, too rigid) and she sought support and received it from people who know her superficially. She is so smart and clever that no one else has really seen these aspects of her(outside of some of her flatmates and bosses who she no longer has anything to do with) as she doesn't sit still or stay in one spot for very long. The year before she moved in she had lived in 5 places in 12 months citing the people she chose to live with were all narcissists or abused her in some way so she was forced to leave. I believe i am now in that role for her as well. I guess there were red flags but not until she moved in and I saw the rage and mood swings but at the same time when we were good(the first 6 or 7 months we had very few problems) it was the best I have ever experienced with any partner. The intensity and passion for each other was incredible and hard to just let go of despite the current situation.
I think I know what you are saying and the differences as they are can not be resolved as I definitely want a monogamous, simple life where I am married and have a family(I was always honest and upfront about this and she was initially happy to hear a man say he was ready to commit). The hard part is when she fluctuates back to wanting this and I can see she wants it and I have trouble not accepting her at her word. My T said I need to concentrate on her actions rather than her words and if that is the case her actions do not and have not matched her words a lot of the time.  Obviously from rereading this message it can be seen just how conflicted I am. Maybe it is best to just move on as I am not sure if I can continue to go through the cycles of this for much longer.
How did you eventually let go once removed? Have you been able to move on? I just miss aspects of her so much and still want to make sure she is ok even though it is not my responsibility? I feel so lost and isolated and as I have said most of my friends and family are like good riddance and you are so much better without her but internally I am dying and just want her back. I am so glad I found this site and can get others perspectives on my current experience. Any more insights will be gratefully accepted.

[Steps31]

hi bradio,

Fairly recently, I've had to let go of the dream of being with what I felt was the one. As a person, there's so many things I love about her and the way she does things, her laugh, her little quirks. I'm still reminded every day of her, of things I'd like to share with her, music we listened to, funny tidbits. Then I have to remind myself of words that came to my mind after our last conversation - "she is the enemy of peace." It's easy to remember the good things, but I know she won't settle in peace for long. I'm not trying to give you a RUN message, but for me, I tried as much as I could without depleting my health and well being. I still love her. I have nothing but love for her, and truly wish her happiness and safety from any harm. I blame her for nothing. It still hurts every day. I feel the pain, I let it come, and I let it go. I meditate and see a therapist. It's an active thing to take care of your whole well being. It's not easy but it does get better.

[bradio]

Hi steps, what you have written in exactly how I feel at the moment. The torment of not being with her feels similar to the turmoil of being with her.
Can I ask how long you have been parted for? Did you make a clean break or did you cycle for a while? How do I move on so this doesn't happen again?

[once removed]

How did you eventually let go once removed? Have you been able to move on? I just miss aspects of her so much and still want to make sure she is ok even though it is not my responsibility? I feel so lost and isolated and as I have said most of my friends and family are like good riddance and you are so much better without her but internally I am dying and just want her back.

i was dumped, and she got in a relationship with someone else 

it took me several months to accept that, to let go of my hope, and to grieve and mourn the loss. it took longer than that to really heal. but yes, its now been over eight years, and i was able to move on, and even cherish the good times without pain attached to them.

there is no good riddance or better off when it comes to loss. people mean well when they say that (people like me even tell themselves such things as a crutch) but its invalidating of your feelings, and its a really black and white way of looking at the relationship. honor your feelings. mourn your loss. at a certain level, i think thats a necessary thing whether you get back with her or not. you dont want to go back to the "old" relationship - it isnt sustainable. any future iteration would ideally look like a very different relationship.

My T said I need to concentrate on her actions rather than her words and if that is the case her actions do not and have not matched her words a lot of the time.

this is wise advice whether you get back together or not. realistic expectations, not necessarily things as we want them to be, are critical. when it comes to words, people with bpd traits speak in over the top, exaggerated ways. they will, out of fear and desire for acceptance, sometimes say what you want to hear. values can be shallow, and fleeting.

that isnt to say she wont tire of what shes doing now, grow up, and finally be ready for a real commitment. that might happen, and it might not. but that will have to happen in its own time. there is not a great deal you can do in your circumstances but let it play out, learn the lessons and tools here and have a very good idea of what a healthier version of the relationship would look like, if possible.

was six weeks ago before hawaii the last time you spoke?

[Steps31]

We first got together in 2011. Then broke up in 2012. Within 6 months we became friends, and then became close to best friends for 7 years. I think we genuinely enjoyed each other's banter and company, even though I didn't see her in person that often until last year. Things were great when the romantic switch was not turned on. As we spent more time around each other, feelings came back and we decided to try again.
Within a day, she was already digging up my past and creating conflict and drama. We went no contact for about 6-7 months. During this time, I really started digging into "why" this happened, and found her actions matched with BPD traits. She had even recommended me to read "I hate you, Don't leave me" back in 2012 but I didn't pay attention. So with this new knowledge and tools, I decided to reach out to her and try again, with an open, sensitive, and validating ear. She gave me an ultimatum - to buy a specific expensive item to show that I was serious this time. I stated that I would like to find some stability between us first and then we can get the item gladly.
She wouldn't budge. Something inside me told me that no matter what I did, her action would always be to find something that creates drama and paints her as the victim. So I guess we recycled 2.5 times? I haven't seen her since last year.
I still find myself researching BPD, cluster B stuff, checking in on this board. Why?... My brain is trying to understand and protect myself. It helps me process.

How do you stop? Really dig down and examine yourself, your relationship with your parents, any tendencies you may have like "people pleaser" syndrome, etc.
I think if you cultivate a healthy sense of self, and really listen to all your senses and gut feelings, you won't allow space for toxic and unhealthy behaviors and you'll react faster instead of letting things deteriorate.

I can recommend some meditations on the Insight app that helped me, or some youtube videos if you like.

[bradio]

Thanks again steps, funny you mention insight timer as I have been using it most night to get to sleep. Any meditations you are using that work I would love to have a look at. your story sounds so similar in so many ways Steps. We have recycled 4 times so far.
It was in early July when we last spoke. I made an attempt to connect and sent her a message to say I knew we were meant to be together and I was going to fly over and meet her in Hawaii. She gave me an earful for an hour about how bad a person i was and how she was going to be making all of the decisions if we were to get back together and if I didn't like it I could go away. She also told me that I should consider anytime she gave me as a gift and the alternative was to be single and never see her. She then told me what would happen if I did go over and not to expect her to spend all of her time with me as she had met someone who sold her some glasses and they were going to do some activities together whether I liked it or not. I decided against going and spending the $3000 to get there from Sydney having already dropped $4000 on the renovations supplies for the flooring, paying her out on living expenses at my house and the money forfeited on the other 2 flights from earlier the week before. She contacted me two days later apologising for what she said and the messages that followed that evening about how I was never the man she thought I was and I never would be. She then said she really wanted me to go as it could have meant a fresh start and the possibility of getting back together and possibly engaged. We spoke for the next two days via face time and had lengthy conversations that went from tears to laughter and all emotions in between. We discussed living arrangements and when I said no to her moving back in the conversation shifted again to her moving out of area which she knew I didn't want. I rang her after seeing my therapist a day later and told her she was correct about a few things around co dependency and having insecurities around our relationship, I knew this would make her receptive to the next idea I would raise as she loved being told she was right. I then said my T suggested I do some work on my issues and I had committed to a 12 week block and would need her not to contact me during this time. I also told her I wouldn't contact her and so far we have both stuck to the agreement.
I have found it very challenging but am slowly realising that I have core beliefs that are different to hers when she splits. If we can get to some agreement and she changes her mind about a few things it may work but until then it would appear we are destined to repeat the same patterns regardless of how much we love each other at times.
I feel so sad after my last session this morning and it isn't until I speak to my T that the truth is right out there in front on me. It seems like such a waste.
I guess if she is ready at any time she will contact me and in the meantime I will continue to do as much work on myself as possible. I definitely have co dependent tendencies but did stick to some of my core values. In as much as I said yes to a number of things I didn't want as well.
There is certainly work to be done from my end.
So good to hear you say that their values can be fleeting or shallow as that seems to have been the case as she told me basically everything I wanted to hear, and I think she meant it at the time, but it changed and flipped so often and so quickly. She liked to say she had fluid boundaries which also gave her the ability to change her mind without recourse when she needed or wanted to.
I am having a sad, flat day today and it all just seems like too much and sucks. Wonder if anyone can relate to that.
I am however grateful to have found this site and appreciate the time people have taken to help me try to make sense of some of this. More time required for me I guess.
I am also determined to stay strong around no contact so that is something I guess. 
Any other thoughts or suggestions will be gratefully received. Thanks Bradio

[Steps31]

I know it feels like a big waste right now, but nothing is a waste... not as long as you learn from it, and you are. You've had good times. You've seen what qualities you like in another and in yourself. Appreciate it.

So I don't know how to send links from Insight, but I wrote down ones I've found most helpful

Individual meditations:
I wake up with this one:
8 Phased - Connect With Your Authentic Self - Simon DeGroot

I go to bed to this one:
Mindfulness for Releasing Anxiety - Glenn Harrold

These are good to come back to regularly:
Happiness Today, Not Tomorrow - Fleur Chambers
Freedom From Fear and Anxiety - Gordon Burnham
Resting in Self Acceptance - Fleur Chambers
Everything Will Be OK - Selena Lael Magram

Courses I highly recommend:
Coming Home to Yourself - Sarah Blondin
Letting Go of Attachment - David Gandelman
Learn How to Say No - Jessica Amos
Learning How to Love - Fabienne Sandoval
Speaking and Living Your Deeper Truth - Vanessa Loder *This was my favorite
30 Days to a Happier More Fulfilled You - Fleur Chambers
Tools For Self-Growth - Reuben Lowe
Learn to Stop Caring What Others Think - Lou Redmond
When Relationships End: Honoring the Process - Jessica Amos
The Energetics Of Success & Manifestation - David Gandelman
Discover Your Truth Through Diamond Inquiry - The Diamond Approach

[bradio]

Thanks for the meditation suggestions steps.
It has been a really rough day but I am trying to remind myself it is just a day at a time stuff and if I put enough of them together it has to get better/easier.
The ruminations and thoughts of what was, what could be and unfortunately what is are bouncing off every cell in my head and heart at the moment.
Hopeful of some sleep and perhaps a better day tomorrow.
It is still such a struggle to work out the hows and why of this relationship and perhaps there are just no answers that will suffice my head and I have to accept that there are just some things that don't have answers or that make any rational sense.
Thanks again to everyone for their support, especially coldknight, no one, once removed, steps and gemsforeyes. It anything else strikes anyone I am happy to listen and learn. I acknowledge I am a rookie and need all of the guidance i can get to get through this as best as possible. cheers, Bradio

[No-One]

Hi bradio:
I use Insight Timer as well.  One of my relaxation choices is to use one of their meditations with nature sounds & then use the 4-7-8 breathing exercise while listening to the sounds (inhale to the count of 4, hold for 7, then exhale for 8 & repeat).  The breathing style is relaxing.  The counting is similar to using a mantra & the nature sounds enhance it all.

It can take a bit of trial & error to find the meditations you like.  I find that certain voices appeal to me more than others, as well as speaking style.  Background noise differs.  Some are great, while others are annoying.  The good thing is that there is a lot to choose from.

Give this visual meditation a try.  It's very calming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0Lo5tUXkVI&t=170s

[bradio]

Thanks so much for the tips no one.
I have had a really strange few days since posting my situation. Upon reading so many threads I have felt both the want and need to reconnect with my ex yet last night it moved very strongly into disgust of myself for wanting her and those behaviours that were really challenging to cope with or make sense of back and genuine anger at both myself and her for what has transpired in the last 18 months.
Is this a normal part of the process of dealing with this type of relationship? Is this part of the grief and loss, part of the healing or is this just what happens because I have been in such a mental fog of what is happening and can this all be fixed and worked out?
I still have that strong need and want for connection with her and i genuinely miss her at times.
I'm not sure if I am just trying to fool myself or if the feelings are real.
Is this common with these type of relationships as well?
I am still so confused by all of it and the head miles even while apart are just as exhausting as when we were together. Is this normal?

[once removed]

Is this a normal part of the process of dealing with this type of relationship? Is this part of the grief and loss, part of the healing or is this just what happens because I have been in such a mental fog of what is happening and can this all be fixed and worked out?
I still have that strong need and want for connection with her and i genuinely miss her at times.
I'm not sure if I am just trying to fool myself or if the feelings are real.
Is this common with these type of relationships as well?
I am still so confused by all of it and the head miles even while apart are just as exhausting as when we were together. Is this normal?

i prefer the word "common" 

these are very loaded, complex relationships. often, there is more to it than just grieving the loss of a person. additionally, dysfunctional relationships can certainly leave you in a fog, or make adjusting very difficult. for example, i was operating on adrenaline for a lot of my relationship, and that manifested as daily anxiety attacks and crying jags after it. normal? no. commonplace, certainly.

things got a lot easier for me when i let myself feel whatever i was feeling without judgment; dont fight it, just explore it. theres nothing disgusting about mourning, grieving, longing for, missing.

[bradio]

What you have written I relate to strongly. I feel like my adrenals are only just starting to regulate after 6 weeks. I was on high alert all of the time near the end and it was just so anxiety inducing as I didn't know when it would kick off again or if I would be loved, so I was always on that edge of what will happen next.
I love your use of the word common rather than normal. That resonates for me especially given what I have read so far. I have also experienced the anxiety and tears parts of this type of relationship.
Thanks so much once removed. I do feel somewhat differently than I have about it. I will try to acknowledge the feelings as they arise and let them be. Easier said than done for me. Cheers, Brad.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi bradio-

I understand this is a sad and difficult process, the struggle of meeting your own feelings.  I believe part of that difficulty and confusion is that while she is WITH you, your feelings take a back seat, way way back seat.  Almost like you’re not entitled to feel YOUR feelings if she’s there.  We kind of survive only to “react” to our partners’ strong emotions.

And if you try to express your own feelings, beliefs or values, you’re  called narcissistic, selfish or jealous - you’re made to believe there’s something “wrong” with you.  That’s where the twisted logic seems to come into play.  It did in my marriage.  I was confused to the point where I had no idea that I had been emotionally abused for 19 years.  The only CLEAR thing was when he physically threw me across the room.  Then I was out.  And My saving grace was that I did not rely on him for a living or a life.

So with the quiet you’re having now, you’re meeting your feelings.  Something you couldn’t do with her there.  Sometimes with pwBPD, there’s only space enough for their feelings and opinions.  Until something changes.  With my uBPDbf things have changed, and I DO express my feelings now.  I’m no longer afraid.  Of anything.  It’ respectful, but still hard work.  Our key is that our values align.  With my exH, there was no alignment of values.  There never would be.

Does any of this make sense?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[bradio]

Thanks gem,
Does it make sense? Does it ever. It is like you are in my head. That is exactly how I feel.
There was only room for her feelings and emotions. I expressed my feelings strongly when we first got together and when I received the threats of self harm(suicide) around asking her to help around the house or clean I started to realise it was not safe for either of us to voice my thoughts or feelings especially if it was going to cause a melt down. I guess the problem with that is it is unsustainable. So in the end I just tried to keep a lid on all of it and fell deeper and deeper into the hole of her totally all consuming world. Now again I take responsibility for that happening and when looking back it happened so incrementally that I didn't notice it was where it got to until I called it off. Is this common as well?
The alignment of values is the main concern for me at the moment I think.
I have done some more reading and have certainly been guilty of JADEing without knowing that was the term. I did do a emotion coaching course online(trauma focused) with her to try to adopt new ways of communicating and as I said have basically agreed to any form of trying to work on this relationship.
So in the event of living with someone who has BPD how is one able to voice their opinions, thoughts and feelings in a healthy way? Obviously without causing a rage or shame spiral for your partner.
It didn't seem to matter what I said or how I said it she was always wanting the message delivered in a different way or tone or expected me to know that she actually just needed to be held and consoled. Some times when these events passed she was able to say she didn't know what she needed at those times either which makes the whole thing a difficult transition and one of danger for an unsuspecting partner.
I could say it was blue for example and she would say no it is not. She would then speak to her friend about it and they would say it is blue. She would then come home and tell me the exact thing I had said hours earlier. When I would remind her of our earlier conversation she would say yes but he said it with the right tone and you didn't. Very challenging to hear and to accept that for me.
Is there a right way or wrong way to voice ones opinions and thoughts?
   

[Gemsforeyes]

You know... when I take a deep dive into it, some of it can feel so manipulative at times.  I need to check in with myself.  Often.  I used to ask to my stepson, a LOT “are those your own thoughts you’re thinking?”  And we’d find that often they were NOT his thoughts.  He was VERY codependent with his mother, his father (my exH) AND his sister.  It was so sad... but heartening when he’d finally come up with his real thoughts and feelings.  I could help my stepson do what I couldn’t do for myself.

A big part of this is codependency.  And for me, I misunderstood what that meant.  I thought it was a measured “counting on each other”.  It’s not.  Nope.  When I first read the list of coDA traits I was extremely insulted and in full denial.  Yuck!  Then I watched and listened to a you tube - Julia Kristina are you codependent?  About 12:38 long.  She's from Canada and it was a much kinder approach to explaining codependent behavior.  I could swallow that.

Bradio - it turned out that I spent so many years, in so many relationships placating so many people (lovers, friends, siblings, mother, kids, work colleagues) that I had little idea how I truly felt about ANYTHING!  I was pretty stunned and embarrassed.  And it explained why everyone always came to me to solve all global crises.  Even strangers in elevators.  And a part of it was in thinking that I even KNEW the answers.  I don’t know the answers.  And it’s ok not to know.  It’s okay to tell someone... “I’m here, but you’ve got this...”. I don’t need to be the “dangling codependent”.  So before you can REALLY see what role you may have played in the dysfunction, you’ve got to understand yourself.  This has been a very gratifying part of my journey.

Learning about myself has greatly helped my relationship with uBPDbf in many ways.  We had parted for 8 months last year.  I sent him away when he did something cruel and painful following the unexpected death of my best friend.  A prime example of there being no room for both of our emotions.  And when she died, I was in very deep grief.  He would not let me grieve, and something drove him to explode and rage on me within mere days of her passing.

During our time apart, I did a TON of work on myself.  I finally faced the depression from my divorce, my codependency, etc.  and then I allowed uBPDbf to re-renter my life.  Not long after, he began a rage, and I was having NONE of it.  When he screamed “YOU HAVEN’T CHANGED AT ALL!”  I lost it.  And I mean I completely lost it.  But on purpose.  I forced words out of my mouth that I would NEVER say.  I told him that in fact I HAD changed, that I was no longer afraid of him or his rage and that he no longer makes me cower.  And I went on to say that cowards like him with BPD will ALWAYS be the same if they refuse to help themselves and go around blaming everyone else for what’s wrong with them.  I was mean.  And I meant it.

I felt horrible.  You see, bradio... I had never really expressed anger toward anyone before, and I’m 61.  Not kidding.  But this changed our entire dynamic.  So I sent him away again for a few more months.  I told him I had anger to deal with.  He asked “anger at me?”  I said “my exH”.  The bottom line is uBPDbf saw something he does NOT want to see again.  Not from me.  And he somehow gained a new level of respect for me and what I need.

There now seems to be two of us in this relationship, but he still is who he is.  He responds to me.  I use the communication tools I learned here, but I am not afraid and I am more myself with him.

And as I said, we share certain values.  Where I now know that my exH was unfaithful during a large portion of our marriage and was dangerously untruthful;  uBPDbf is extremely loyal and his lies are childish and just plain dumb.  Working on that.

His issues are his issues.  There is still one very huge issue.  It’s his.  But if it hurts him and us, I’ll address it with him.  If he handles it well, I’ll let it ride.

I don’t “finger-point”.  I don’t “blame” or shame him.  I don’t tell him what to do.  If I need his help with something, I ask if he can help me.  Most of the time, he anticipates what I need done in the house or garden.  I listen closely to how he speaks when he’s upset about how family members talk to him and order him to do things.  He is also codependent with certain family members... and it destroys a certain part of him.  His strength around this is being eroded.

All of our dynamics are different.  What works for me will likely not work for you.  My anger outburst was not planned.  It just opened his eyes to the fact that I was trying so hard to love him.

I do want to point something out.  Or rather ask something?  Taken in a nutshell, I walk in from working all day and you have been hanging out in the home.  I ask why you haven’t washed the dishes.  And you get hysterical and say you’re going to kill yourself.  Is that a reasonable adult response to a question about dirty dishes?  What could or should happen about this later in a conversation?

Sorry for the long post.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Harri]

This thread has been locked and split after reaching the post limit.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339111.msg13072356#msg13072356

Thank you.