Parental Alienation

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi,

I have a somewhat unusual circumstance.  My ex has been alienating me from the kids for 4 years, except I have custody and majority parenting time.  The kids have been told to remain absolutely silent about anything, and I mean anything, that happens during her parenting time.  Aside from the hallmark traits in the kids behavior toward me to be alienating, they occasionally let something slip that they are obviously being coached to alienate me and think the worst of me.  They don't believe anything I say, share nothing with me about themselves, and mostly try to ignore me while portraying narcissistic thinking themselves.  The kids are twelve.  So, how do you fix this situation?  What is the solution if I could go to court and have something ordered?  They already see a child therapist regularly.  Thank you for any responses!

[justaboutdone]

Hi,

I have a somewhat unusual circumstance.  My ex has been alienating me from the kids for 4 years, except I have custody and majority parenting time.  The kids have been told to remain absolutely silent about anything, and I mean anything, that happens during her parenting time.  Aside from the hallmark traits in the kids behavior toward me to be alienating, they occasionally let something slip that they are obviously being coached to alienate me and think the worst of me.  They don't believe anything I say, share nothing with me about themselves, and mostly try to ignore me while portraying narcissistic thinking themselves.  The kids are twelve.  So, how do you fix this situation?  What is the solution if I could go to court and have something ordered?  They already see a child therapist regularly.  Thank you for any responses!

[Turkish]

My order states that both parents shall not ask the kids about what goes on at the other parent's home. I know my ex asks, and though I am cognizant of that, I sometimes do, like, "how are things? What did you do last weekend?" My kids are 7 and 9. I imagine it's tougher with teens. I'll be there soon.

What are they doing that seems like their mom is alienating?

[livednlearned]

I found Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak to be especially helpful, as well as Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy. Anything by Dr. Craig Childress, especially Jujitsu parenting, is also excellent.

Have you thought about doing family counseling with the kids? Looking back, I wish I did that with my son. Or, at least I wish I had sessions one-on-one with his therapist so I could learn better skills for supporting him during the worst of the divorce/custody and alienation.

My son is 18 now and he tells me a little about the kinds of things his dad said, and how he (S18) learned to eventually figure out which side was up. However, we had a tight bond going into the divorce, so it was n/BPDx's relationship to lose.

Does the T say much to you about the narcissism? Or the alienation?

[Panda39]

Hi justaboutdone,

Are you receiving therapy yourself, my partner found it really helpful to have a professional to talk about this stuff with.  His daughters 11 & 15 were alienated during their parents 2 year divorce. It took about 3 years of majority custody and their mother's bad behavior toward the girls for things to go back to a normal trusting relationship with their dad. (It takes time)

If you already have majority custody, I'm not sure if court is the solution. Court can't change your kids thinking. I like Lnl's suggestion about Therapy with your kids.  Someone that can facilitate conversations between you, that can help undo the brainwashing and build trust.

Keep being you, keep loving them, keep spending time with them.  I know it's hard and can be miserable when you are being rejected but keep it up.  Keep being there for them, keep showing up when you do you continue to show them you are their dad and you love them.  Remember that they are kids and are likely having to negotiate a lot of difficult stuff on the other side of the fence with their mom.

Lnl gave some excellent resources, I encourage you to do some research. Undoing this will take time, keep learning, trying different things, and getting support. 

Here is some information from the site on parental alienation that you might want to check out...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=104479.0

Hang in there,
Panda39

[justaboutdone]

My order states that both parents shall not ask the kids about what goes on at the other parent's home. I know my ex asks, and though I am cognizant of that, I sometimes do, like, "how are things? What did you do last weekend?" My kids are 7 and 9. I imagine it's tougher with teens. I'll be there soon.

What are they doing that seems like their mom is alienating?

The examples that they use in every book or video that I've read about it from authors like Bill Eddy, Amy Baker, and Childress match exactly with my kids behavior. The most and best recent example is my son insinuating that a girl I was dating was a prostitute and asked how much I paid for her? I said he didn't know what he was talking about and he had never met her. He kept on persisting and asked if she was worth it?  He insisted she was a prostitue because he said that I like that kind of thing and that's the kind of dad I am.  My son is barely 11 years old.

[justaboutdone]

I found Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak to be especially helpful, as well as Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy. Anything by Dr. Craig Childress, especially Jujitsu parenting, is also excellent.

Have you thought about doing family counseling with the kids? Looking back, I wish I did that with my son. Or, at least I wish I had sessions one-on-one with his therapist so I could learn better skills for supporting him during the worst of the divorce/custody and alienation.

My son is 18 now and he tells me a little about the kinds of things his dad said, and how he (S18) learned to eventually figure out which side was up. However, we had a tight bond going into the divorce, so it was n/BPDx's relationship to lose.

Does the T say much to you about the narcissism? Or the alienation?

The jujitsu parenting has been the most helpful but I've read all the authors you mentioned plus more. The therapist tries to work me in the sessions but it also upsets the kids when the therapist takes my side on something. She finds the sessions go better without me in the room.  The therapist is very aware of the alienation and narcissistic behavior.

[justaboutdone]

Are you receiving therapy yourself, my partner found it really helpful to have a professional to talk about this stuff with.  His daughters 11 & 15 were alienated during their parents 2 year divorce. It took about 3 years of majority custody and their mother's bad behavior toward the girls for things to go back to a normal trusting relationship with their dad. (It takes time)

If you already have majority custody, I'm not sure if court is the solution. Court can't change your kids thinking. I like Lnl's suggestion about Therapy with your kids.  Someone that can facilitate conversations between you, that can help undo the brainwashing and build trust.

Keep being you, keep loving them, keep spending time with them.  I know it's hard and can be miserable when you are being rejected but keep it up.  Keep being there for them, keep showing up when you do you continue to show them you are their dad and you love them.  Remember that they are kids and are likely having to negotiate a lot of difficult stuff on the other side of the fence with their mom.

Lnl gave some excellent resources, I encourage you to do some research. Undoing this will take time, keep learning, trying different things, and getting support. 

Here is some information from the site on parental alienation that you might want to check out...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=104479.0

Hang in there,
Panda39

Thank you for the advice and it's all very good. I've been working with a therapist for myself and with the kids for 4 years. The alienation has been documented in all 3 custody evaluations as their chief or main concern. Nothing that any professional or myself has been able to undo significant emotional attachment with mom. They latch onto and keep private everything that she tells them. It has even been documented by the professionals that if the kids tell anyone about anything she says than they will never see her again. This alienating behavior started when they were 6 or when the kids were first forming sentences. I feel that it's ingrained in them. Prior to divorce mom was extremely violent and verbally and emotionally abusive. Her actions were mostly against me and not the kids and I often feel that the kids have already been modeled how to act towards me and it has been reinforced by mom. I do feel very much like I live with my ex in my house but they are just kids that sound and act like she did when we were married. 

[worriedStepmom]

If you go back to court again, what do you think will happen?

A friend of mine has an NPDex who does a lot of alienating behaviors.  He's currently banned from contacting his kids and will likely end up with supervised visitation, just because of the alienation.

[PeteWitsend]

Hi,

I have a somewhat unusual circumstance.  My ex has been alienating me from the kids for 4 years, except I have custody and majority parenting time.  The kids have been told to remain absolutely silent about anything, and I mean anything, that happens during her parenting time.  Aside from the hallmark traits in the kids behavior toward me to be alienating, they occasionally let something slip that they are obviously being coached to alienate me and think the worst of me.  They don't believe anything I say, share nothing with me about themselves, and mostly try to ignore me while portraying narcissistic thinking themselves.  The kids are twelve.  So, how do you fix this situation?  What is the solution if I could go to court and have something ordered?  They already see a child therapist regularly.  Thank you for any responses!

The advice I received regarding alienation or other manipulative tactics BPD exes try is to remain positive and supportive; the hope is that kids note the discrepancy between the bad things their BPD-parent says, and the positive feelings they get from the Non-BPD parent, and make up their own minds.

I think getting the kids a good therapist is one proactive thing you can do.

Showing them unconditional love and trying to redirect bad behavior toward positive time together and experiences is another.

I asked my kids' psychologist how to handle questions from my kids, that obviously stem from their mom trying to bad mouth me or my extended family... he said remember to ask them what they think, or where they got their ideas... don't let them linger unanswered,  and don't argue with a person who isn't there.

for example, my oldest said something about his grandma (my  mom) being mean to my XW (HIS mom).

T's advice in such a situation was to say "Well, your mom has her opinion of how things went, and I don't agree with it.  you know both people.  what do you think?  did you ever see her act that way to your mom?"

My oldest seems to have a good perspective on this stuff (but it's only been about a year since our separation); I'm more
concerned about my youngest... his behavior both to me and in general has gotten worse.  My oldest assures me he is just as bad with his mom though, so it may just be an age thing for him.

[justaboutdone]

The advice I received regarding alienation or other manipulative tactics BPD exes try is to remain positive and supportive; the hope is that kids note the discrepancy between the bad things their BPD-parent says, and the positive feelings they get from the Non-BPD parent, and make up their own minds.

I think getting the kids a good therapist is one proactive thing you can do.

Showing them unconditional love and trying to redirect bad behavior toward positive time together and experiences is another.

I asked my kids' psychologist how to handle questions from my kids, that obviously stem from their mom trying to bad mouth me or my extended family... he said remember to ask them what they think, or where they got their ideas... don't let them linger unanswered,  and don't argue with a person who isn't there.

for example, my oldest said something about his grandma (my  mom) being mean to my XW (HIS mom).

T's advice in such a situation was to say "Well, your mom has her opinion of how things went, and I don't agree with it.  you know both people.  what do you think?  did you ever see her act that way to your mom?"

My oldest seems to have a good perspective on this stuff (but it's only been about a year since our separation); I'm more
concerned about my youngest... his behavior both to me and in general has gotten worse.  My oldest assures me he is just as bad with his mom though, so it may just be an age thing for him.

Thank you for the response. Unfortunately the kids interpret my statements as validating that I lie to them and only encourages argument.  They don't want to hear anything I have to say and will vehomently disagree with anything I say. If I ask them to think about whether a statement could be true they tell me that they will refuse to think about it and will often make a statement like 'why don't you think about it!'

[livednlearned]

It sounds like you have done a lot of reading already, so perhaps you already know about Warshak's Family Bridges program?

https://www.warshak.com/services/family-bridges.html

[justaboutdone]

It sounds like you have done a lot of reading already, so perhaps you already know about Warshak's Family Bridges program?

https://www.warshak.com/services/family-bridges.html

Thank you for the link. I had known about it but had forgot about that course. At this point, it looks like my best and only option since therapy is failing or not able to do the job necessary.

[ForeverDad]

The Family Bridges program, as I recall, says it isn't available if you get a court order requiring the ex to pay some of the costs.  Just a heads up.  Nice that it is set up as a variation of vacation destination.

[PeteWitsend]

Thank you for the response. Unfortunately the kids interpret my statements as validating that I lie to them and only encourages argument.  They don't want to hear anything I have to say and will vehomently disagree with anything I say. If I ask them to think about whether a statement could be true they tell me that they will refuse to think about it and will often make a statement like 'why don't you think about it!'

You're definitely in a tough spot.  my kids are younger, and still WANT to do things with me, although I imagine as they get older, that will change.

Just spitballing here, but have you tried connecting with them on things they like to do, without putting any pressure on them, and seeing how it goes?  Like forget about trying to get some sort of behavioral results from your kids, and focus on enjoying time together? 

Another thought I had is to just be patient, with the expectation that eventually your EX's personality issues will drive your kids away, just like they drove you away.

I think pwBPD can only keep up the façade for so long before their own jealousies and fears of abandonment cause them to demand things from their own kids that the kids don't want to provide.  For example, teenagers want to spend time with their friends... not their mom.  but if a BPD mother is insisting the kids stay home with her, she might find herself the target of the kids's resentment, instead of you. 

[justaboutdone]

You're definitely in a tough spot.  my kids are younger, and still WANT to do things with me, although I imagine as they get older, that will change.

Just spitballing here, but have you tried connecting with them on things they like to do, without putting any pressure on them, and seeing how it goes?  Like forget about trying to get some sort of behavioral results from your kids, and focus on enjoying time together? 

Another thought I had is to just be patient, with the expectation that eventually your EX's personality issues will drive your kids away, just like they drove you away.

I think pwBPD can only keep up the façade for so long before their own jealousies and fears of abandonment cause them to demand things from their own kids that the kids don't want to provide.  For example, teenagers want to spend time with their friends... not their mom.  but if a BPD mother is insisting the kids stay home with her, she might find herself the target of the kids's resentment, instead of you. 

Thank you for all the suggestions. They really don't want to spend any time with me and I feel almost impossible to connect. They are literally obsessed with mom and all her ideas and opinions. I feel convinced right now that their is nothing I could say or do to change that. It's incredible the amount of pushback and illogical thinking that the kids say to defend mom.  I don't even bring mom up but the kids bring up things that I know is being parroted from what their mom said.

I think Mom will be glad if they choose to spend time with friends as she gets lots of anxiety if she has to balance everything and the kids also. 

[SamwizeGamgee]

My heart goes out to you.
I am still married, and am in a blackmail situation in which I am essentially held here by the fear that my wife will turn the younger kids against me.  This happened to my now D18, who was present or overheard mom's blame and rages against me.  It got to the point that D18 wouldn't be on the same floor of the house with me.   she hasn't said a word, text, email, or anything for over two and a half years.  She's now out at college, i haven't seen her since early 2018. 
This is a result of persistent (and I believe unconscious) conditioning by mom.  Looking back I would have been more deliberate in separating myself from the image portrayed by mom, hoping the kids would distinguish truth from rages and manipulation.
PA hurts like nothing else I've been through. 

[Panda39]

Another thought I had is to just be patient, with the expectation that eventually your EX's personality issues will drive your kids away, just like they drove you away.

This is exactly what happen with my Partner and his daughter's.  However it didn't happen in a vacuum and it took time.

During the divorce process my Partner saw his daughters every other weekend and Wedesday nights. (This was when the worst of the Parental Alienation was going on...the kids spying on dad, going through his things, reading his texts, even reporting what food was in the refrigerator and reporting back to mom, they refused to see their dad at times and they along with their mother made false allegations of abuse). This was 2010 - 2012, I can safely say this period with his kids was horrendous...They all now call this period "the dark times".  When their parents separated the girls where 10 & 14.

When the divorce was final the judge awarded my Partner majority custody he had M-F afternoon and 1 weekend, mom had 3 weekends a month.

Mom had 3 different evictions during and following the divorce, in between there was couch surfing and hotels.  She ultimately ended up living in hotels (we suspect on her family's dime).  This disrupted visitation, caused major instability so the girls saw her even less at this time.

Then in 2015 when it was time for then D18 to go to college her mother convinced her there was a "family trust" that would pay for tuition that financial aid wouldn't.  Dad warned her, mom was living on alimony there was no family trust so D18 asked mom for proof and her mother provided something convincing.  So D18 believed her mom...wanted to believe...needed to beleive and she happily went across the country to a Private Liberal Arts school only to come home at Christmas and be told by the school she couldn't come back due to lack of payment.  Because she was 18, the student that attended, and the person that signed all the paperwork D18 now owed this school $15,000.00.  That was when she went no contact with her mother...January 2015.

Summer 2015 mom sent D14 to Camp across the country or so we thought.  Four days into "Camp" dad gets a call from D14 that she is not at camp but at the house of the parents of one of mom's childhood friends waiting for mom to pay for camp.  D14 was told not to tell dad what was going on but after 4 days the woman D14 was staying with made her call her dad.  D14 was sent on a oneway ticket to nowhere.  Her uncle (mom's brother) picked her up and bought her a ticket home, she stayed overnight with her Grandfather (mom's dad) and finally got home.  We later found out that not only was camp not paid for that summer of 2015 but it had not been paid for the summer before 2014!  This is when D14 went low contact with her mother...June 2015.

It's horrible that they had to go through these things but sometimes we only learn things the hard way.  Meanwhile dad was stable, consistent, and helped them pick up the pieces.

Panda39