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Author Topic: I think I’m beyond help right now. I’ve never been so low - Part 4  (Read 408 times)
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« on: September 10, 2019, 11:21:13 AM »

The r/s with my wife has been the longest. We have been together 13 years but only slept together for 3 of those years. We’ve been married for 8 years and never consummated the marriage.

Before that I had two five year r/s both of which were very sexual until the end. Prior to that I’ve had a series of two and three year r/s which weren’t very sexual at all. I used to go off sex very quickly in relationships when I was young but I would stay in them to avoid being alone. I think drink affected my libido back then.
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2019, 01:28:47 PM »

Thanks. It's the most grown up thing I've done in the whole r/s.

It is a huge step forward.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Stand tall, man.  Don't let go of your relationship because she has dumped you, instead, celebrate the first step in letting go of your sex addiction. Start counting the days of making decisions like a man of integrity and do not succumb to your thoughts that are often associated with dry drunks and sex addicts.

My wife told me that she is meeting someone for a drink tonight. My instant instinct was to contact my ex and try to get her back.  

Try to feel proud that you have set your wife free to find a love that is more fulfilling for her. Give her all the validation you can. Be a giver right now. Feel good in that.

This has been my mantra for many a year in dealing with my alcoholism:
      Many of us exclaimed, What an order! I can’t go through with it. Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these
principles. We are not saints. The point is that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines.

A little tough love here... let go this as a mantra. "We are not saints. The point is that we are willing to grow"  You stopped drinking - you reached that plateau. Time to look for a much higher bar... something to do with finding seeking relationships with emotional maturity and impeccable character - and maybe - I will surround myself with emotionally and mentally healthy people.

Your 56. Raise the bar!

Get the divorce. Start a divorce recovery and learn about what a healthy relationship is about. Don't date anyone at divorce recovery, SAA, or AA.

So do you think it's Inevitable that people will become sexually bored with each other? Or one person will always be more invested than the other?

RF, everyone wants to be loved and everyone wants a complete relationship that includes love, respect, trust, commitment, compatibility, listening skills, sharing, sex, and helps us grow to be what we want to be.

Some of us equate sex with all of the above and that having sex means being loved. In that universe takes on a life of its own. A sex centered life rarely does well. Most partners will be turned off by sex centered relationship - except for maybe an affair partner / fantasy lover.

It might help to write this on your mirror and read it for a month or so. Sex does not beget love. Love begets sex.

Sex is enough fuel for an affair. Sex can be the currency of a honeymoon period in a relationship. But love is about respect, trust, commitment, compatibility, listening skills, sharing, and sex is a byproduct of all of that.

Excess at this: respect, trust, commitment, compatibility, listening skills, sharing

You will likely have a intellectually, emotionally, and a physically rewardig relationship.

Respect, trust, commitment, compatibility, listening skills, sharing.



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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2019, 02:00:29 PM »

Excerpt
.it  is a huge step forward.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Stand tall, man.  Don't let go because she has dumped you, celebrate the first step in letting go of your sex addiction. Start counting the days of making decisions like a man of integrity and do not succumb to the thoughts coming associated with dry drunks and sex addicts.  

I still miss her terribly. I still keep hoping she’ll contact me. It’s the last week of my play and I keep hoping she’ll ask to come. I know she’s gone and given how unhealthy she is I’m certain she has found somebody else. It’s a really tough position to be in. I feel lonely and bereft but I can at least see how toxic the r/s was and how unstable it made us both. I almost expect to see her shouting at somebody else in the street in a few months. Or maybe it was just me who triggered her and her next r/s will be wedding bells. Just a note here, many people in SLAA who talk about dating now they’re in SLAA report that the high intensity is missing and they often feel strange without that high octane thrill.

Excerpt
Try to feel proud that you have set your wife free to find a love that is more fulfilling...

This is tough. My initial reaction was anger that I had to bear witness to her moving on but I have said I won’t ask her to leave our flat. We have agreed not to bring anybody back. I want her to be happy and I wouldn’t show her I’m angry as it would be appalling hypocrisy but my life is crumbling around me. At some point it will either be obvious that we can’t function together like this or we’ll both have a comfortable acceptance in time and she’ll move out when she can afford to.

That’s an A.A. tenet rather than my mantra. Are you sure that living to a higher standard will guarantee me happiness? I have my doubts but I am willing to try.

Respect, trust, commitment, compatibility, listening skills, sharing and hot sex?

When my ex initiated sexual contact in the cinema and on the beach I thought I’d gone to Heaven. How do I change that mindset? Do I have to?

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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2019, 02:32:19 PM »

Question, was the initial sexual attraction and excitement worth the discard and depression you are going through?  I am certainly not saying you will never have hot sex again.  I'm just saying the really high highs come with really low lows.  When I got sober, I though my life would be boring and I would never have fun again.  I was certainly wrong.  I have had amazing experiences sober without all the chaos and craziness of the substances.  It is wonderful but very different from what I thought was fun.
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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2019, 02:56:48 PM »

Excerpt
. Question, was the initial sexual attraction and excitement worth the discard and depression you are going through?  I am certainly not saying you will never have hot sex again.  I'm just saying the really high highs come with really low lows.  When I got sober, I though my life would be boring and I would never have fun again.  I was certainly wrong.  I have had amazing experiences sober without all the chaos and craziness of the substances.  It is wonderful but very different from what I thought was fun.

It’s a good question. I guess it’s a bit like asking if I regret my drinking and then the promises tell us not to regret the past or shut the door on it. For best part of a year I thought this woman was the love of my life. I’ve been sober 17 years in January and the last time I had anything to do with a woman in A.A. was 20 years ago. So this was an exceptional circumstance and I gambled that his woman who I was so drawn to was actually as healthy as she initially appeared (to me, nobody else thought so) plus she was going to have a throat operation and needed support. I allowed myself to lie to myself and see a damsel in distress who needed my help.

I wouldn’t be without the experience of meeting her. I wouldn’t be without the times we shared during the good times. Even the holiday right in the middle of her devaluation of me was wonderful. So it’s a moot point to say I regret it. What I would say is that I couldn’t afford to repeat an experience like that and hope to emerge with my physical and mental health intact. I’ve escaped from this one by the skin of my teeth. We have both said to each other at times that we wish we’d never met the other. She said that after she reconnected with me on WhatsApp and I didn’t invite her to my play. I said that after I had been suicidal. So those two differences in our experiences of each other illustrate just how much more in trouble I was than her. I don’t regret the r/s so much as the way I handled it. Perhaps with more emotional intelligence I could have had a fling and let her go knowing that it wasn’t good for her in the long run and still remained friends. What I regret more than anything is how the r/s impacted my wife. I wish I’d ended my marriage before I’d met the affair woman for the right reasons and not for the affair.
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2019, 03:43:54 PM »

Perhaps with more emotional intelligence I could have had a fling and let her go... 

Perhaps with more emotional intelligence, you would have released that when your wife takes a two week vacation it's not open hunting season for sex partners.

I have to ask you the elephant in a the room question - there thought that your affair partners (both 1 and 2) might have dinner with someone else would send you close you close to the brink of destruction. 

Yet, when the opportunity presented itself a year ago just after your wife went on her trip, you went to the cinema with glee. Not only did you have no remorse, you said you deserved it. She was on vacation. You deserved to have fun too.

Oddly, even with years and years of serious affairs, it upsets you that your wife is finally restarting her life and going out for a drink.

Put in another way, if you were in a serious relationship someone like yourself who is so careless with others hearts, you would be screaming here how unfit a human being she is.

Do you see this in yourself?  Do you see what you would think if you dated you?
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2019, 04:19:43 PM »

The difference is I thought it but I didn’t say anything to her. Of course I see the contradiction, I think you know that I see it. I’ve never criticised my wife about anything..Look back at all my posts and you won’t find one word of criticism about my wife. I recognise a person of integrity when I see one. I adored my ex affair partner, I should feel guilty and perhaps I do with regard to my wife, but my only regret is that I can’t be with her. I wish my wife well. She deserves happiness. So can you now stop attacking my morals please. I am attempting to address years of dysfunction.
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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2019, 05:14:39 PM »

I am attempting to address years of dysfunction.

If you can't fully own it and face it, are you?

The point is meant to help you see yourself accurately, and to see your affect on others with empathy. You know this is one of the steps in AA, to make a full accounting for our transgressions.

It's a tall order, I'll give you that. But I think if you gave your actions the same weight that you do when you are on the receiving end (or thinking about the possibility that you are) there would be massive shame and remorse.

I don't think the point is to beat you up. It's that if you can't see it, really see it, recovery and a better life are an even taller order.
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2019, 05:21:31 PM »

I’m not attacking you, RF.

Your morals are attacking you.

I’m not judging you.  I’m trying to help you find a better life.

Are you ready to have this discussion with members?
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2019, 05:34:14 PM »

Excerpt
If you can't fully own it and face it, are you?

The point is meant to help you see yourself accurately, and to see your affect on others with empathy. You know this is one of the steps in AA, to make a full accounting for our transgressions.

I get it but if we're talking about empathy put yourself in my position for a few moments. I have lost the woman that I thought was going to be my soulmate. Whatever you feel about the rights and wrongs of my actions, I was convinced enough to tell my wife last year that I had a crush on this woman prior to sleeping with her. After an emotional battering from my ex and final discard, I am now breaking up with my wife and there are bound to be emotions associated with that. I am a human being. Whatever the rights and wrongs of my actions I am going through the emotional wringer. This stuff takes time to deal with. Go easy. This hurts. Not long ago I didn't want to live. Believe me I see myself as I am. Rather than beat myself up I am seeking to find a better way of living than the dysfunctional life I've had for the last 10 years.

Excerpt
It's a tall order, I'll give you that. But I think if you gave your actions the same weight that you do when you are on the receiving end (or thinking about the possibility that you are) there would be massive shame and remorse.

I feel some regret that I didn't tell my wife last year the full story. I feel remorse that I have hurt her. I also feel a terrible regret that the woman I wanted to spend my life with is now out of my life.  Ultimately this is going to be a better solution for my wife who will end up with someone she actually wants intimacy with. It certainly wasn't me. So do I feel shame? Initially yes, but ultimately this had to happen. It's a shame that the woman I blew it all wide open for is no longer around but that's my fault I guess. I don't intend to beat myself up about this, I've been in enough pain these last few months and I really don't want you beating me up either. I get what you are saying to me but believe me I've suffered hell through my actions.

Excerpt
I don't think the point is to beat you up. It's that if you can't see it, really see it, recovery and a better life are an even taller order.

Of course I can see it. I know how unfairly I have treated my wife. I don't seek to minimise or justify my behaviour or the impact it has had on my wife. All I will add is that I know through the r/s with my ex, when I love somebody properly I would never cheat on them. I regret hurting my wife, I also regret spending 10 years of my life in a r/s that wasn't right for both of us.


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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2019, 05:37:50 PM »

Excerpt
I’m not attacking you, RF.

Your morals are attacking you.

I’m not judging you.  I’m trying to help you find a better life.

Are you ready to have this discussion with members?

I've been having the discussion with members. I am used to holding the mirror up to myself in AA. The biggest issue that I need to face is my inability to walk away from r/s when they don't work. That is codependency and as far as I see it has been the cause of most of my pain. Had I not got myself into the painful relationships or walked away when it was obvious they weren't working, I wouldn't be in this situation. Believe it or not I do have morals and intend to live up to them. I have learnt a big lesson about hanging around in the wrong relationship.
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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2019, 06:06:25 PM »

  Do you see what you would think if you dated you?

This seems to be the central issue.  I'd be interested to read a RF post about this.

You have a crystal ball and just found out that your soulmate was doing everything you were doing and that you were the fling...not the soulmate to her.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2019, 06:23:08 PM »

The biggest issue that I need to face is my inability to walk away from r/s when they don't work.

You often say this. I don't think it is anywhere near the biggest issue. It's a little like jumping head first into a bus and than lamenting in the hospital afterward that you didn't have the right helmet on. It's not the helmet that is the problem - although a better helmet might have helped some.

I adored my ex affair partner, I should feel guilty and perhaps I do with regard to my wife, but my only regret is that I can’t be with her. I wish my wife well.

This is the problem, RF.  Once any decent person discovers that this thinking is in your heart, RF they will be gone.

You had a hard lesson with affair 1.

You had a hard lesson with affair 2. We tried to help you, but you went from grieving to loving without a break.

You are teeing up to have a 3rd hard lesson.

Just like #2, people see where you are headed and it is bot going to end well next, either.

I recognise a person of integrity when I see one.

Based on your comments over the last two years, I don't think you really grasp where the line is between integrity and lack of integrity.  You are deeply ingrained in a code that will not serve you well.

And earlier you asked the question about a healthy relationship vs hot sex. Everything you say suggests that given the choice between hot sex and a meaningful partnership, you will opt for the hot sex.  My thoughts are if the sex is that important, maybe you should give up the whole relationship idea. Have flings with people that want flings and then move on when the tire of it. Just be authentic. Let people know what your deal is. Stay a way from married or emotionally vulnerable women. Fling away. No one will get hurt with that.
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2019, 06:24:22 PM »

I'd be interested to read a RF post about this.

I think this would be helpful.
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2019, 08:41:19 PM »

Hey RF-

Am I hallucinating, or did I see somewhere that your W (soon-to- be x?) has moved back into your flat with you?  If so, why?  After all of this, why?  “Financial” would not really be a reason, would it?

And why is it good for either you OR your soon-to-be xW to be informing one another about your social plans?

And yea, love begets sex.  And with love, sex / intimacy in a relationship can last for a long long time and actually BE a component of a relationship, rather than the basis of it. 

And sex can be just that - sex.  Especially with wounded people.  It’s good to keep that in mind.  I don’t know about anyone else, but I know about me.  I WAS wounded.  And others mistook that for “love” because I was always sweet and loyal and kind.  I’m happy to clarify if you’d like.

And RF... as much as you’d like to think you would never have strayed from #2, your relationship sadly didn’t have the chance to stabilize into a supportive love.  Had it stabilized and had she lost interest in sex 2+ years down the road, can you truly say you would NOT have sought that physical “bump” elsewhere?

I’m not casting stones here (tho’ I am at myself); But this is the best place to be honest.. to work through some important things.

Warmly,
Gems
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2019, 12:28:45 AM »

Excerpt
This is the problem, RF.  Once any decent person discovers that this thinking is in your heart, RF they will be gone.

I stayed in my marriage for 13 years (5 years before we were married. For 10 years I was in a r/s lacking intimacy. So I don't think you can say that I stay in relationships purely based on sex.

Excerpt
Based on your comments over the last two years, I don't think you really grasp where the line is between integrity and lack of integrity.  You are deeply ingrained in a code that will not serve you well.

As I said, I know what integrity is but life is messier than that at times. Sometimes we fall below our standards that we set for ourselves.

Excerpt
You are teeing up to have a 3rd hard lesson.

Just like #2, people see where you are headed and it is bot going to end well next, either.

On the contrary, I'm not teeing anything up other than recovery.

Excerpt
And earlier you asked the question about a healthy relationship vs hot sex. Everything you say suggests that given the choice between hot sex and a meaningful partnership, you will opt for the hot sex.  My thoughts are if the sex is that important, maybe you should give up the whole relationship idea. Have flings with people that want flings and then move on when the tire of it. Just be authentic. Let people know what your deal is. Stay a way from married or emotionally vulnerable women. Fling away. No one will get hurt with that.

I've never wanted a r/s purely based on sex. I've never had a r/s purely based on sex either. I want love and partnership where sex is a part of it. The facts of my life don't bear out your idea of wanting a r/s just for sex. I've had some high intensity love affairs but the r/s with my ex wasn't just about sex. If it was I'd find it easy to replace that. I am in love with her. I miss everything about her apart from the abuse. In the end that has very little to do with sex.
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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2019, 12:38:58 AM »

Excerpt
Am I hallucinating, or did I see somewhere that your W (soon-to- be x?) has moved back into your flat with you?  If so, why?  After all of this, why?  “Financial” would not really be a reason, would it?

It's her home too. I can't just kick her out, we are married. Financial is the reason so many people end up trapped together in a r/s that no longer works. Also, I don't want to just kick her out. I care about what happens to her.

Excerpt
And why is it good for either you OR your soon-to-be xW to be informing one another about your social plans?

It's not good as I discovered yesterday. I asked her. I won't make that mistake again. Although Skip has advised me to validate her new r/s but I'm just not at that stage yet.

Excerpt
And yea, love begets sex.  And with love, sex / intimacy in a relationship can last for a long long time and actually BE a component of a relationship, rather than the basis of it.

And sex can be just that - sex.  Especially with wounded people.  It’s good to keep that in mind.  I don’t know about anyone else, but I know about me.  I WAS wounded.  And others mistook that for “love” because I was always sweet and loyal and kind.  I’m happy to clarify if you’d like.

I've experienced what you describe here in two five year relationships. I think with my recent ex I did mistake vulnerability for love in her. I think she did herself. Her journey has been discovering who she really is, which is actually not somebody I particularly liked in the end sadly. Or maybe she was the person all along and I just didn't see it.

Excerpt
And RF... as much as you’d like to think you would never have strayed from #2, your relationship sadly didn’t have the chance to stabilize into a supportive love.  Had it stabilized and had she lost interest in sex 2+ years down the road, can you truly say you would NOT have sought that physical “bump” elsewhere?

I’m not casting stones here (tho’ I am at myself); But this is the best place to be honest.. to work through some important things.

I would never have cheated on her if she'd been able to have a r/s with me. I know it in my heart. I'm 56 and sex is less important to me than loving somebody special.

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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2019, 12:43:05 AM »

Excerpt
This seems to be the central issue.  I'd be interested to read a RF post about this.

You have a crystal ball and just found out that your soulmate was doing everything you were doing and that you were the fling...not the soulmate to her.

Well my wife wasn't the fling. I married her. Unfortunately neither one of us realised that a lack of intimacy and sleeping in separate rooms would devastate the r/s.
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2019, 06:41:30 AM »

RF, you have 400 posts that haven't advanced from the first rung on the ladder as you are debating most everything that has been said you.

I stayed in my marriage for 13 years (5 years before we were married. For 10 years I was in a r/s lacking intimacy. So I don't think you can say that I stay in relationships purely based on sex.

How can anyone help you when you spill out nonsense like this. Your marriage was a disater. You emotionally withdrew from the relationship in the beginning rather than try to resolve intimacy issues and you have been in affairs nonstop since. You haven't divorced because of financial limitations. You wife would have been gone 8 years ago if she actually knew what you were doing with your affair partner. You don't want her to go, she serves some nominal role in your life. You have some passing remorse. You expect her to leave the family house.

Can you engage us on a higher level?
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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2019, 07:48:53 AM »

Well my wife wasn't the fling. I married her. Unfortunately neither one of us realised that a lack of intimacy and sleeping in separate rooms would devastate the r/s.

Pick whoever you want out of your relationships to be your "soulmate".  The imagine that you find out that they have been treating you the EXACT same way you have been treating your relationships.

How would you feel about that? 

Best,

FF
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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2019, 08:00:08 AM »

Dear RF-

You know that Skip and I have been with you since you first came to the boards.  I believe you and I joined at about the same time.  And this is NOT about anyone “ganging up” or going against you.  In your heart of hearts, You know that.

Shortly after my last response to you, I went back to read some of your posts about #1 from May 2017.  She was “the love of your life”.  It may serve you well to read some of what you wrote about YOURSELF on May 5, 2017.  I urge you to do that.  For you.

Next... and this is just my take, my lens is not normal sometimes... but my uBPDbf and I have drifted through cycles where we have intense passion and intimacy; and other times where we build our relationship through conversation.  I lead the second part (through what I’ve learned with the comm tools here).  He and I ARE best friends now.  When he says it, it IS true.  And I feel that way for him, especially since my best girlfriend passed away in 2/2018.

This part is for you.  When your ex #2 said she wanted to go to the cinema as friends, you declined and fought her.  You stated all the reasons why not and That ended that.  I was sorry to see that and felt it was a lost opportunity.  I believe why NOT learn to be friends and see if you can build upon that to real love?  Minimizing friendship can be a mistake... this is where we learn who our lovers really are.

And the thing is, that is off the table now.  Your W is back in your marriage home.  So everything, except for working solely on YOURSELF, is off the table.  Which is probably what is best.

So will you do that?  That means it’s time to STOP projecting what anyone else felt, feels, thought or thinks.  Only you.  Will you do that?

And when you come to understand yourself, being in a relationship is more comfortable.  It allows you to be present and to have your OWN feelings.  You’ll be able to listen to your partner without “fighting” her.  Because your feelings will be your own.  Your feelings will no longer simply be a reaction to hers.  So MUCH more comfortable.  So much LESS complicated.

Please just think about this.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2019, 09:10:13 AM »

Guys,

I appreciate all the help but I’m sorry if you can’t see my side of the street. I’m in way too much of a mess to engage on a level where I’m accused of spilling out nonsense. I’ve taken just about as much as I can of what amounts to personal attacks on my morality, values, conduct etc. I came here originally because I was in a r/s with a woman who I believed at the time had BPD. I really have no idea if she has or hasn’t. The most recent time I was engaged with another woman who may or may not have BPD, she may or may not have, I really don’t know. All I know is that she hit me four times and I nearly crashed my car on one other occasion. I have followed advice on here that has been painful but necessary. These constant attacks on my character and emotional intelligence on really getting me down.

My wife is as culpable in this relationship’s lack of intimacy as I am. She is love avoidant and a sexual anorexic. She went to SLAA for these issues. I asked her to go to counselling she said she’d rather spend money on mountain climbing trips. You really have no idea what my wife wants so to assume it’s me who wants her around is not true. She doesn’t want to leave London because her job and friends are here and I am not going to force her to leave the marital home. Not because of money but because she chooses not to. I have asked you previously to respect that decision and not to keep badgering me about getting divorced, and selling up. I don’t know if any of you understand what it’s like to struggle for money because if you did you would understand that this situation goes way beyond my affairs or my wishes. This is about survival. People become homeless in London very quickly and I am not putting her financial future at risk until she is ready to leave. If she then wants me to sell the flat I will consider doing so. But if I keep getting these constant attacks on my character and motives I will have to disengage because it is causing me stress and it isn’t helpful. If you want to be helpful, please stick to the relationship issues and let me deal with the financial aspect.

Yesterday in SLAA somebody said ‘there is no romance without finance’ and that is absolutely true. My issues now go beyond affairs of the heart and I am thrust into a situation regarding affairs of the pocket. Perhaps it’s you Skip who needs to engage on a higher level and show some of that empathy you keep banging onto me about.
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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2019, 09:39:56 AM »

Gems,

I didn’t go to the cinema with my ex because she sent me the most heinous message a few days earlier accusing me of abuse. When she said she didn’t want to be touched alarm bells rang. I always held  hands with her in the cinema indeed in days gone by she has been very sexual. When I decided not to go as friends some people on these boards said it was probably a good idea. In all honesty I wish I had gone now. But when she accuses me of abuse just for grabbing her wrist when she dismissed me and said she wasn’t going to give me a cinema ticket for a previous engagement we had I was simply sick of her aggression. I didn’t want there to be any misunderstanding and on top of that we had recently been on holiday and made love every day. This was also hot on the heels of her cycling past me one day without even stopping to say hi and I was hurting and in terrible pain and she didn’t care. So I decided to cut my losses and avoid any further pain. She hasn’t behaved like a friend. Why would I want to be friends with her. She has treated me like her enemy and I decided that I didn’t want that aggression in my life especially when she projects all blame onto me. I was sick and tired of her treating me like excrement.

I would love to read something from some of you recognising the hell that this woman has put me through. I am on my knees. Do you have any idea what it took for me to walk away? I’d rather cut off my right arm than let her go. I wrecked my marriage because I thought we could have a future. She begged me every day for months to leave my marriage. I asked her to be patient and we would end up together. She never understood that the moment I told my wife that I had a crush on her two weeks in my marriage was over. She didn’t care in the end either. Every day I cry with yearning for her. I can’t believe that she has turned her back on me. I really don’t want to go on living without her. I wish I was dead because I found the strength to walk away and I wish more than anything that I had gone to the cinema with her. Maybe I could have turned it round...but to what? I’d now be able to spend nights with her and from our history it just would have been more opportunity for her to demonise me. I walked away because she isn’t well and doesn’t know. I walked away to save my peace of mind. Now I wish I was dead.
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2019, 10:48:22 AM »

RF, so many of your posts seem to focus on your position as a victim.  You said you have done multiple 4th steps on your behavior and the entire point of a 4th step is to see our part in situations.  There seems to be this incredible lack of insight - yes, I did wrong, but look at what they did to me.  You cannot control anyone else's behavior.   AA is all about taking responsibility for AND CHANGING our behavior.  How in the world do you not see your actions and their repercussions?
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2019, 11:39:10 AM »

How in the world do you not recognise that my ex is an abuser? I’m done with this site for a while. I’ll end up doing something drastic if I stay on here. It’s taking every ounce of strength I have to stop myself from telling my ex exactly how much pain she has caused me. I am not a victim and never will be. So please save the lectures I’ll talk to friends who know me and see what an emotional wreck this woman reduced me to. You have a set of stock AA answers to every situation but you don’t know me or exactly how badly she treated me. I left the situation because of it and it has taken every ounce of my strength. You all need to learn empathy on here. It is disgraceful that you don’t recognise an abuser when you hear about one.
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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2019, 12:08:34 PM »

I was with someone who choked me until I couldn't breathe and dragged me out of bed by my hair.  I was in so much fear that I peed myself and was able to escape to a neighbor's house.  Don't for a minute think that I don't know what an abuser is. 

If I blame him for my circumstances, I will never get well.  I recognize that my decisions put me in that situation and only I can change my life.  That does not excuse his behavior, but it will allow me to move on and grow from it.
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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2019, 12:14:41 PM »

  how much pain she has caused me. I am not a victim and never will be. 

How much did you pain did you bring in your own life?

I've asked before for a description..percentages or some way to understand HOW YOU quantify the source of your pain. 

I would like to understand that better?  Can you focus on that ?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2019, 12:22:41 PM »

These constant attacks on my character and emotional intelligence on really getting me down.

RF, some years ago, a guy in a 60's era speedboat with his wife and 4 kids (all under 5, with one infant), was crashing into waves for fun in a desolate area. He hit a wave and the boat broke in two, everyone was thrown out, no life jackets, no one knew how to swim, and the infant was laying face first in the water, alone.  I was solo sailing with an autopilot. I cut the sails loose, tied on a life line and dove in to get the baby first. The father was hysterical and jumped on me as I was pulling the baby back to my transom and he jumped on me with a death grip and we both went down about 5 feet. I had to let the baby go rather than pull her down.

As we are trained in any kind of rescue, when you are in that situation, you sometimes have to knock some sense into the victim... That feels pretty rude to victim. But this is what people who care do. Some run away from the rescue to save themselves (which is valid), some stay in fracas as long as they can so the victims don't meet their demise.

That is what is happening here, RF.  You are going down and people are trying to help you and you are wounded and fighting back in the least constructive way. I know that feels rude, but sometimes that is the only way.

The last time you were in this situation, you jumped head first into a rebound relationship before the embers cooled of the previous affair (which was also a rebound), and you burned your wife who, you said the time, you would try to make amends and treat her kindly (either in leaving or staying) for all the wrong you have done to her.

There is a lot of carnage here.

Given the past of using new relationships to heal previous relationship problems, you are a prime candidate to do it again. Another rebound may just may compound the pain enough that you move from suicidal idealiation to suicide.

So you are getting that same "get you act together tough love" that the reckless boat captain got before he destroyed his own rescue.

I know you are hurt. I know you are panicked. I know you are depressed. You can channel that pain to affect aid own rescue, or you can make this all about what a victim you are and go deeper into the water.

It's a choice. A tough choice. Pain tests us all. It's a choice you have to make.

Can you just check the box?  Bullet: completed (click to insert in post)

         _____ I realize that I have been running from fire to fire to avoid my own feelings of pain and I want to affect my own rescue before I go down again

_____  I am an innocent victim of a terrible injustice at the hand of others and need victim recovery care

Yes, the choice is a bit black and white, we are really just trying to gauge the primary direction to work with you here.

We will respect your choice. And hopefully you can find support here.
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« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2019, 01:40:18 PM »

Excerpt
. I was with someone who choked me until I couldn't breathe and dragged me out of bed by my hair.  I was in so much fear that I peed myself and was able to escape to a neighbor's house.  Don't for a minute think that I don't know what an abuser is.  

If I blame him for my circumstances, I will never get well.  I recognize that my decisions put me in that situation and only I can change my life.  That does not excuse his behavior, but it will allow me to move on and grow from it.

I’m sorry that happened to you and it is truly shocking. I understand your need to take responsibility for your own actions but that wasn’t your fault. He deserves to be punished for what he did.

My ex deserves to be told in no uncertain terms that physically attacking a man and then painting him black and trying to make him seem like a predatory abuser is wrong. I do not give her a free pass just because she is unhealthy. It is not a victim mentality for me to recognise that what happened in that r/s was not all my fault. I have done step 4 several times. Each time I have made amends where appropriate and each time it has worked and I’ve felt cleansed and free of resentments. This is a whole new level. To be punched square in the face on the way to the cinema because I dared to challenge her for calling me a Narcissist on a daily basis does not fly for me. She should be held accountable for those actions. She is lucky that I didn’t drag her down to the police station. Domestic abuse is a heinous crime and my brother had a knife pulled on him by his ex wife. I saw him become a gibbering wreck over the years because she constantly made threats against his life and prevented him from seeing his four children. Abuse is abuse however you look at it and my brother did nothing to deserve that. Sure he can look at his part in that r/s. He loved and protected his family and that was the Thanks he got for it. He has not uttered one word of nastiness to her, he has not fought her and he has not escalated the situation. He has had limited access to his children and his ex won’t allow them to come to his wedding next year to his new and loving partner, because she still loves him.

My ex is an abuser. She gaslights and tells everybody that men have treated her badly and assaulted her. She is a manipulative liar and disseminator. I have practised more restraint in this situation than ever before. I am willing to accept responsibility for getting involved with her but I do not excuse the emotional and physical abuse. Her behaviour has driven me to the brink of catastrophe. That is not a victim mentality because I am coming through it and I will eventually be stronger. If any of you think I deserved that because I had an affair then you are all only seeing 50% of the issue. I could meet anybody seemingly healthy and they could turn out to be a murdering psychopath. Are we really going to take responsibility for everybody else’s pathology? I am not a saint. I am not a victim. I just recognise I met somebody without an ounce of empathy in her heart and effectively used me in early recovery. I have every right to express my anger about what she did and express it I shall. Excusing that kind of behaviour just enables abusers to abuse. She’s lucky I didn’t report her written threats to the police.
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« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2019, 02:00:45 PM »

Excerpt
. There is a lot of carnage here.

Yes there is and I am living though it and dealing with it. The pain for me is about my actions leading.to my wife’s unhappiness for no good reason. Yes I should have left my marriage before I met somebody else. I fell for this femme fatale and I was a fool. However, the sadness for me is that had she been a halfway decent human being we may all have ended up happy in healthy relationships without the carnage. You may find that a preposterous notion but I gambled my future on somebody incapable of relationships. That is what I will examine. Everything we have discussed is important I won’t brush off the integrity issue, the values, the high intensity r/s leading to this, my poor treatment of my wife. Nor will I forget how abominably I’ve been treated by somebody I loved.  Yes, I see the irony...and just as my wife is getting on with her life and barely communicating with me, probably through anger and betrayal, so I feel that way towards my ex. That’s where I am at the moment. Those feelings will change in time but right now I’m hurt and angry at her. I have no intention of launching into another r/s. I will take it on the chin until the pain subsides and I feel indifferent to her.
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