Validation refresher

[kells76]

Interested in feedback on validation with SD13.

A couple of weeks ago I commented to the kids that I wanted to organize the art stuff. SD13: "Oh, well, compared to Mom's, this is organized!"

I followed through and it's way better. Even the labels have labels 

SD13 loves sketching and drawing and is really great at it. A friend's mom asked SD13 to do some portraits for her and plans to pay SD13 who is understandably thrilled.

SD13 was working on her "commission"  with us last night and said she loved the new organized art stuff. Said that at Mom's it would take her forever to dig through boxes in the basement to find a tube of crusty paint that barely worked. Also said that maybe she would just do all her commissions over with DH and I because it was easier to find stuff/a better environment.

I think I sort of punted... I said something like "Yeah, I'm really glad the organization is working, too; it's really satisfying".

I wish I had said something like "Glad you like it; you know, the most important thing for me is that you can do your art wherever works best for you, whether it's here or at Mom's or both".

IDK... I don't think SD13 is "baiting". I am glad she feels like she can bring this up. I don't want to go down the road of Mom-bashing, but I don't want to invalidate SD13, either. It IS chaotic at Mom's.

How would you guys interact with those statements?

[Notwendy]

I think you did fine. Your D13 commented that the organization was helpful and you agreed with that. One way to think about this is that- your D13 is aware of the difference. You didn't invalidate D13's mom, you validated that organization is helpful.

One idea is that, since you are good at organizing, you can teach D13 how to do it. D13 can be in charge of keeping the art supplies organized whether or not at your house or mom's. Perhaps you can duplicate the containers you use so there's a set at the other house.

It would be a gift to D13 to teach this since it probably isn't role modeled at home. It's a good skill to know.

[Notwendy]

FWIW, while you don't want to invalidate the other parent, it gets transparent when others are trying to validate them when I could see the difference. I spent a lot of time with my father's family. My aunt would make us meals, take me shopping. She wasn't dysregulated and screaming all over the house. I could see the difference with my friends' mothers as well. While I think it would be inappropriate for anyone to triangulate with my mother and discredit her, by my teen years, I sensed something was different with my BPD mother. It wasn't until many years later that I had a name for it.

You don't want to be the one to validate your SD criticism of the mother, but you can also choose to let it slide if it isn't pertinent. I think the focus on validating that she likes the organization without mentioning the mother was OK.

[livednlearned]

You did two things great, kells. You validated her and snipped off the third point of the triangle so that the comment was about you and her, agreeing that being organized is satisfying. What mom does or doesn't do is irrelevant.

Either consciously or unconsciously she was comparing you and bio mom and you brought it back to how x feels. Simple. 

Your SD might not do this but mine (as young adults) definitely play triangle games. When they're mad at mom, I hear about the latest thing she's doing. It's taken a while but for the most part I shrug it off because any hit I might get from hearing they are pissed at her is replaced with a nagging feeling that I let myself get used.

If they're mad at mom, that's between them and mom. I don't want to light up like a Christmas tree whenever I hear they're irritated with mom. 

In the beginning, I kinda did. H had said how peaceful our home is, how I am so relaxed compared to his ex, how the girls like being at our house, how holidays are warm and fun, how good it is for them to see what normal is like. And I lapped it up.

Maybe it's just my psychology but I had to stop looking for a payoff because it was making it hard for me to just be me. I felt like I had to be their "not mom" and that started to feel icky.

[MeandThee29]

I agree validate but try to leave the other parent out of it when there's something negative related to the other parent. You can agree that it's nice to have orderly art supplies and say that you'll help keep them that way.

If you get into pointing out that she can do art projects at Mom's too, you just invalidated her comment that it was hard to do that there and her decision not to do that.

It's a balancing act. Mine are older and still need validation that their observations and experiences are right. If they say it's so nice to do X now that Z isn't in the picture, I say, "Yes, it's nice to do X. I'm glad you enjoy that."

There's nothing wrong with enjoying something that wasn't possible with the other parent. I have friends that I enjoy certain activities with that I wouldn't enjoy with other friends. That's how adulthood is. Every relationship is a little different.

[kells76]

If you get into pointing out that she can do art projects at Mom's too, you just invalidated her comment that it was hard to do that there and her decision not to do that.

Good point, MeandThee... that trying to be "fair" and "equal" would come across as invalidating SD13's whole statement.

You validated her and snipped off the third point of the triangle so that the comment was about you and her

That's also a helpful mindset -- that whenever the kids bring up Mom/Stepdad in conversation with me, what's really going on is that TWO people are talking, not THREE. So the focus is on the TWO people who are talking with each other. Aaahhh... OK, yup, if I get drawn into focusing on the topic, which happens in this case to be a third person, then I lose the focus on the structure of the conversation, which is about the second person (one of the kids). Iiiinnntterestingggg...

*writes note to self... "snip off third point of triangle... make less pointy..."* 

you can teach D13 how to do it. D13 can be in charge of keeping the art supplies organized whether or not at your house or mom's. Perhaps you can duplicate the containers you use so there's a set at the other house.

Yeah, that might be interesting to float: "Hey, let me know if you want to work on this together/want to hear some tips about organization". Or, if we're just shooting the breeze together: "Hey, give me a hand with sorting through this paper... I'd love to hear about your day"

FWIW, while you don't want to invalidate the other parent, it gets transparent when others are trying to validate them when I could see the difference.

So you could see/sense what was going on when someone tried to defend your mom, even if it was subtle? What age did that start for you, notwendy?

[livednlearned]

*writes note to self... "snip off third point of triangle... make less pointy..."* 

haha  

One thing my T pointed out to me about SD25 is that everything her mom does is in SD25, somewhere. SD25 is not BPD, not even close. She does tend to triangulate, like a lot of people do, especially in dysfunctional families where there is chronic conflict, even if it's low-grade stuff.

[Notwendy]

It started about the age of your SD13. It was subtle at first. Keep in mind I grew up in a 2 parent home, and my father was a huge enabler. I did spend a lot of time with his family and I could see that the "mom's" on that side were different. They were wise to not say anything about my mother but just by doing what they were doing that was normal to them, I could see the difference. I also could see that the relatives on my mom's side, and also my friends' mothers didn't didn't act like her.

This was the era where many women were housewives. These other mom's cooked, helped take care of the house, and some had careers. My mother did not do any of these things. She had household help, or we did them, so that was a difference.

She also would trash the house when dysregulated. She and my father had huge fights, yelling, screaming, breaking things. The next morning, they'd be all affectionate and acted like nothing happened. Clearly I could see something wasn't right. But I wasn't allowed to talk about it. My father would defend her and expect me to pretend all is normal. One thing to consider with your D13- is that my mother blamed me for her behavior, so when my father defended her, I believed it. You don't know what messages your D 13 is getting with her mom, but considering the tendency to project, some of this may be happening. So if you defend her mom, she may believe any blame on her.

By high school I was embarrassed by her behavior. I guess most teen girls are embarrassed by their mothers but I hope most teen girls don't face what I faced when I got home from school. It was crazy and the friends who saw it just thought she was crazy. They had a clearer vision that it was her issue. I took a psychology class in high school to try to figure her out, but BPD was not in the book we were reading. She also is able to pull herself together and act wonderful in public, so nobody would  believe me if I did talk about her. Not being validated, I believed I was the cause of her issues and the cause of my parents' issues and when I went away to college, I thought they would finally be happy.

Thank goodness for my father's family. They didn't talk about her but they role modeled "normal" for me. I a grateful for that- I learned how to be a mother from them and other mothers. One friend's mom taught me how to bake cookies. That was ordinary to her, but it meant a lot to me. Don't underestimate you and her father's  impact on D13 by showing unconditional love and role modeling how to be good parents. Mostly I think it's important to validate her, not invalidate her impressions of her mother. If she knows something isn't right, she's probably correct. I don't think it's good to join the triangle but you could validate her feelings. " Mom isn't organized"
"I understand that's frustrating, but you know, I can teach you how to do it"

[MeandThee29]

She does tend to triangulate, like a lot of people do, especially in dysfunctional families where there is chronic conflict, even if it's low-grade stuff.

Two years ago when I was seeing a life coach, she called me on the carpet for triangulating. She said that I needed to stand firm on my own beliefs and fight my own battles. So I've worked on that.

She also observed that triangulation was driving a wedge in my separation, typical of dysfunctional families. My husband's family were the experts in the conflict from the beginning. As far as I know, that's still the case even though I have no contact with them.

Oh, I've come a long way though. These things are tough.