Part 3:: Will she ever realize the truth?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Mod Note:  this thread is a continuation of part 2 here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339800.0;all

Ok I think I've got it.

Now the question is...how long do we wait?  Not that I'm thinking of moving on with another person at all.  But like just life in general...and at what point do we decide...yes I am better off without this person and they aren't healthy and can't get healthy... I'm not there yet at all...but I have moments of these thoughts...

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

Mod Note:  this thread is a continuation of part 2 here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339800.0;all

Ok I think I've got it.

Now the question is...how long do we wait?  Not that I'm thinking of moving on with another person at all.  But like just life in general...and at what point do we decide...yes I am better off without this person and they aren't healthy and can't get healthy... I'm not there yet at all...but I have moments of these thoughts...

SH4

[Enabler]

I would recommend that you continue to have those thoughts as much as you would have any other thoughts. You've done amazingly well to get yourself to baseline, improve your understanding of your situation. What you think now will likely change... which way, I don't know. Your W is still seeing a T as well, she's still exploring and that will take some time. Change can happen and does. It would be wise to continue growing in your own knowledge and understanding during this time, give some more thoughts about what you want and what works for you and what might work for both of you.

No one has been a saint in a relationship that's broken down like this. Where do you feel you have failed in the relationship? What would you have done differently?

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

No one has been a saint in a relationship that's broken down like this. Where do you feel you have failed in the relationship? What would you have done differently?

I feel I have failed in the relationship by not being a good listener, like really listening.  I have also failed with my reactions.  I have noticed I would bottle things up and not say anything and not say anything and then suddenly over one little thing I would blow up and bring in the kitchen sink about everything that's happened that I didn't bring up before.

If I would have known then what I know now about BPD, I would have tried to have a lot more patience with her, would have tried to view things from a different perspective and definitely would have tried harder to not react in such a bad way.

SH4

[Enabler]

What does blowing up at her look like?

[Stillhopeful4]

I just say everything I have been holding onto.  We never get physical, I might raise my voice, but to hear her tell it I scream and shout and rage on and on...I might shout on a rare occasion, but she's the one who screams and rages and throws things and punches walls (She hasn't done that in a few years) and breaks things.  But has NEVER laid a finger on me..never even come close.

Usually me going off starts with the straw that broke the camels back and I start saying I'm done and can't take it anymore and I feel like I have sacrificed so much to be with her and yet I get nothing in return (emotionally) and that I've wasted the past 10 years for what?  Usually I say it all pretty calm, I don't usually mean it but apparently these words hurt her so deeply that it caused our relationship to end because she can never TRUST me again with her heart.

SH4

[Enabler]

Okay, so at a trigger point you too get dysregulated and you spew stuff at her in a mostly calm manner but your level of anger doesn’t get to disproportional levels? Does that sound a fair summary?

Do you feel like you have a period of warning when you KNOW you’re going to explode? Can you visualise the physical sensations when you KNOW you’re getting to that point? Here’s how I know, it’s literally the red mist comes down, I feel energised like I’ve been doing amphetamines, my eyes sharpen, I feel a tingling sensation in my fingers.

Have you ever resolved anything by shouting? In fact have you ever resolved anything when either of you are in RED mode?

Have you tried anything different which has worked?

Enabler 

[Stillhopeful4]

Okay, so at a trigger point you too get dysregulated and you spew stuff at her in a mostly calm manner but your level of anger doesn’t get to disproportional levels? Does that sound a fair summary?

Correct.  Like when she gets in a rage she needs to throw things or hit things or break things or leave and slam doors.  I never do that.  Never even had the urge to do that!

Do you feel like you have a period of warning when you KNOW you’re going to explode?

I'm not sure...not really, maybe if I look over time...I just get to a point where I don't think I care anymore and can't take it and it just spills out...different than exploding.

Can you visualize the physical sensations when you KNOW you’re getting to that point?

It's not a quick thing, it happens over time... and I think it's more how I say things... for example let's go back to being out with friends...we go to a concert...she ignores me and is hanging all over her friends..when it's over and we go home she doesn't say much neither do I, then she will start on me and I will say something about her hanging all over people and ignoring me, she will then start yelling that I'm making it up and accusing her of things she's not doing...then that's when I lose it.  Because it's like I can NEVER be upset with her, as soon as I say the smallest thing or call her out on something I think is inappropriate she loses it and then I shout...how can you really not see what you were doing?  Things like that.

Have you ever resolved anything by shouting? In fact have you ever resolved anything when either of you are in RED mode?

 No nothing is resolved by shouting or in Red mode...she goes to red, I don't think I get there.

Have you tried anything different which has worked?

Yes, we have learned to talk our T's way...listening etc etc.  But at what point do you scream F this.  You had your hands all over xyz all night and you didn't even speak to me..so that's when it happens when she does something I don't agree with and I try and talk to her and she views it as "I didn't do anything wrong" or "I didn't do that you are making it up".  How do you listen to that?  How do you talk thru that?

[once removed]

How do you listen to that?  How do you talk thru that?

disputes, in general, are best resolved in times of calm, slowly, over time, when both of you are at baseline.

if you launch into an accusation, most people will respond defensively. its human nature.

throwing the kitchen sink or bottling things over time, likewise, isnt constructive. its 0-60, and emotions get heightened, and one party says you do this and this and this, and the other is defensive; either throws it back, or argues the point, and the offended party just says it louder in order to be heard.

its fine to say you object to her behavior in the moment. but its important to recognize when things have broken down to the point of no return, when we are just escalating or making things worse, and wait until everyone is back to baseline.

when everyones guard is down, theyre more likely to hear each other. its easier to find solutions that work for everyone. sometimes, its necessary to do so more than once, before everyone gets on the same page.

[Stillhopeful4]

when everyones guard is down, theyre more likely to hear each other. its easier to find solutions that work for everyone. sometimes, its necessary to do so more than once, before everyone gets on the same page.

Once Removed,

Thanks.  Unfortunately I learned this too late.  This is one of my top things I am trying to work on changing within myself.

SH4

[Enabler]

How did this weekend go SH4?

[Stillhopeful4]

Little bit of a weekend update:

I saw her for a few hours yesterday, but another friend was there for most of it, so we didn't really get to chat during that time.  She was texting me last night and she seems to be really having melt downs and can't figure out why she can't fix herself.  She also said she feels soo much pressure to make a decision of if she wants to be with me.  I asked how because I don't text her, call or anything and I write everything I'm feeling in my journal that she's never read, but she knows is for her.  She's like I don't know, I just fear you and fear if I say no or fear if I say yes.  To myself I'm like WTF...little ol me, what about me is to "fear".  Ughhhhhh

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

How did this weekend go SH4?

Very different than expected.  I was very busy with the kids which took up all night friday and most of the day on Saturday.  I got to see her for a few minutes Saturday afternoon to pick up the dog for a visit...but her mom was there so we didn't really get to chat, other than about him.  Sunday, to my surprise she texted me and asked if I wanted to ride with her (and our friend) to a wake.  I said yes and she came over about an hour before we had to leave.  Didn't really talk too much other than about the dog...went to the wake...many of our other friends were there and asked us to grab some lunch with them.  She declined and said she needed to get back.  Went back to my house she took the dog and left.  She was texting early evening and she really is all over the place.  She says she feels all this pressure to decide if she wants to reconcile.  I asked why, because I don't text her, or call her or anything and only respond when she messages me.  I don't tell her my feelings, I write it all down in a journal.  She's like I know but  it's just "there".  Then she said she has a huge fear for if she comes back or if she decides to move on.  Then she said she was having a meltdown and can't fix herself, couldn't fix our marriage.  I don't even know what to say to her when she says that stuff.  And on top of it she doesn't want me to tell T anything she told me about her not wanting to go to him and the meds etc etc.  She NEEDS to go to him.  I don't know what to do.  We both go, back to back again, later on this week.

Thoughts?

[once removed]

She also said she feels soo much pressure to make a decision of if she wants to be with me.  I asked how because I don't text her, call or anything and I write everything I'm feeling in my journal that she's never read, but she knows is for her.

listen. this isnt something you need to defend yourself against.

she feels the pressure and conflict that anyone would feel at the prospect of splitting up their family. she wants to do right by everyone (whatever that entails), and its a hard choice.

I don't even know what to say to her when she says that stuff.

sometimes just listening is the most supportive thing that you can do.

[Stillhopeful4]

she feels the pressure and conflict that anyone would feel at the prospect of splitting up their family. she wants to do right by everyone (whatever that entails), and its a hard choice.

She says she doesn't consider us her family anymore.  However, she considers uncles that live very far out of state that she only sees once every 2-3 years for a day or two...(and never even calls on the phone) her core family.

[Enabler]

Hey SH4,

Sorry I didn't get back to you after asking how your weekend was, my bad.

So to refresh, you connected, went for to the funeral together and did other things together then she pushed herself/you away and felt bad and said some things you don't understand/things that were hurtful.

Can you see this as push/pull? As Once Removed pointed out there's likely to be a sense of inner conflict with her feelings. Having a time of connection may not provide her with a feeling of security and comfort, but a feeling of insecurity and vulnerability. Although I'm reluctant to highlight how she may experience things 'differently' to you, it's worth considering that she does experience positive experiences through a different lens... lets not forget that funerals are emotional experiences.

With regards to her comment about feeling part of your family, could this be a function of how disconnected she feels from you and the kids. I'm guessing none of the kids are bio hers? Using the example of a pack of Wolves (not calling you or your W Wolves ), maybe she feels like she's been ejected or distant from the pack and doesn't belong, she knows that she would be welcome in her old family pack should she choose to return there as that's her family pack. They would accept her, maybe accept her for her 'brokeness'. From what you've said on the boards you strike me as very welcoming and accepting, but maybe her internal conflictedness is telling her otherwise. I believe we touched on this idea before when she's made comments about coming back to the house.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

So to refresh, you connected, went for to the funeral together and did other things together then she pushed herself/you away and felt bad and said some things you don't understand/things that were hurtful.

Yes

Can you see this as push/pull? As Once Removed pointed out there's likely to be a sense of inner conflict with her feelings. Having a time of connection may not provide her with a feeling of security and comfort, but a feeling of insecurity and vulnerability. Although I'm reluctant to highlight how she may experience things 'differently' to you, it's worth considering that she does experience positive experiences through a different lens... lets not forget that funerals are emotional experiences.

Yes I definitely saw it as push/pull.  Especially when it was over and all of her usual friends that she always goes out with, wanted to go to lunch and she refused and "needed to get home".  Back to our other conversation, if I hadn't been there she would have jumped at the opportunity to go out with them/anyone.

With regards to her comment about feeling part of your family, could this be a function of how disconnected she feels from you and the kids. I'm guessing none of the kids are bio hers? Using the example of a pack of Wolves (not calling you or your W Wolves ), maybe she feels like she's been ejected or distant from the pack and doesn't belong, she knows that she would be welcome in her old family pack should she choose to return there as that's her family pack. They would accept her, maybe accept her for her 'brokeness'. From what you've said on the boards you strike me as very welcoming and accepting, but maybe her internal conflictedness is telling her otherwise. I believe we touched on this idea before when she's made comments about coming back to the house.

No, she does not have any bio kids.  I don't think she's considering ever coming back to her pack.  I'm starting to realize a lot of things this past week.  It should be interesting at T today.  She has the appointment right before mine.

[Enabler]

What have you realised in the last week?

[Stillhopeful4]

I'm starting to realize more and more that she is just miserable ALL THE time and I don't cause it.  I came across some pictures, candids, of an event and she had that same frowning face  in most of the pictures, except the ones that posed and then she had the fake smile.  At the funeral she was angry at someone for being 5 minutes late and just miserable.  She will admit she is miserable, and "why would you want to be around me" and "the house much be so much calmer without me there". 

So I have asked myself, do I want to spend the rest of my life trying to make this person happy, when she never will be, and if I act happy in her presence she accuses me of having someone else making me happy or makes me feel guilty for being happy...it's just my nature.

I'm angry she has just left "our pack".  I had a good friend of ours that moved out of state a few years back call me this weekend.  She was actually her friend when I met her, and she was like SH4, I don't know what's wrong with W...for the past few years when I call or see her, she's short with me, never talks to me..barely says hi...and they use to be the best of friends.  She's like you don't need that in your life, she's left you 10 times and all you do is dote on her and give her everything she wants and what has she really ever done for you.  It got me thinking, what's the point...then I read something someone on here posted about they leave so we will chase them and grovel and beg.  I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BEG ANYONE for ANYTHING!  I am better than that!

The thing with the friends bothers me, she use to have a big circle and she literally left them all and got a brand new pack of friends...I was like lets go see blabla (old friends) she would snap...no they don't do anything for me, they never come see me, I don't want anything to do with any of them.  Since I have known her, she has discarded 4 different "packs" of friends but then makes new packs so easily.

I want a constant in my life, even if that constant is only ME!  If one of my kids calls and wants me to go for a ride with them to the store or something after work, I want to go without asking if it's ok and feeling sick because I know I will get the you are choosing the kids over me, then not going and feeling sick because there shouldn't be anything wrong with running to the store with my kid especially if she doesn't want to go.

Like I said...she's always miserable...except...well except for that time when she is forming a new pack, then she's so happy and carefree around these new people and, as we have previously discussed, it's hard to watch...especially when she gets behind closed doors and the masks slips off and she's back to miserable.

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

And now, I'm ready to lose my mind.  I can not believe what she just called me about and went off on me.  I am at a complete loss.  It's to detailed to post here.  I am at a complete loss...complete.  And I really need help with how to respond.  I can't believe what she just did and said.

[Enabler]

But you love her... that came from somewhere right?

Being 'free' to make choices is very alluring, but there is a cost on the other side of that, a cost that all those in a relationship balance with the pro's of being in a symbiotic relationship. There is a freedom cost to having children... yet we still do it. Perceiving that we're in a metaphorical cage is an easy trap as well. Did she ever overtly prevent you from doing those things or make it emotionally challenging to be honest about doing those things. My friends W who 's BPD described her reaction to my friend going out as "there's always an emotional cost". Did/does she have similar feels of being trapped by your harsh tones when she wasn't free to be spontaneous and not come back when she said she was coming back?

It's easy to oscillate emotionally from one extreme to another. Try and get balance. All the extremes in your feelings bring up valid thoughts and are worth exploring but now is a chance to bring yourself back to the middle remembering what you learnt when you 'went there', but counteracting those lessons with asking yourself what was good. You weren't nuts for 10 years, there was something that made you want this grumpy miserable person who wouldn't let you go out... what was it?

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

You weren't nuts for 10 years, there was something that made you want this grumpy miserable person who wouldn't let you go out... what was it?

That's what I'm trying to figure out.  I don't know what it was.  Ok so I am going to type this out while it's still fresh.  She has a daughter that she adopted from her x (but her x is the primary parent and my W rarely see daughter because they live an hour away and she was far away for college)...15 years ago, step dd is now 22.  Just graduated college last spring and has a full time job and her bf just moved here from out of state, they just got an apartment together and moved in last week..it's about 25 minutes from my house and very close to my job.  So my step daughter texted me last night, her and BF are going out of town for the long weekend and would I mind taking a drive and feeding her cat sat & sun.  I said sure no problem.  This morning my W texted me and said "You are going to feed the cat this weekend?".  I replied "Yes, is that ok?" She replied "No, now I have to say yes", I said "why?" She calls me screaming...she like aren't you mother of the f'ing year...I'm like what?  She's like I said no, they shouldn't have gotten a cat and made plans to go away for 4 days..let them figure it out.  I'm like I'm sorry I didn't know I was doing something wrong and she's like you are going to look like the super hero and I will look like a butthole.  I was like, she asked if I had plans this weekend and if I would mind, I got nothing going on so I said I would stop in and feed the cat, no big deal...she's like yes it's a big deal...if my daughter contacts you I want communication and if she asks you to do anything you need to check with me first...all the kids love  you and I can't believe you stopped by her work and brought her a coffee last month.  I was like what...I hadn't seen her in 3 weeks since you moved out and I was driving by and dropped off a coffee ONE TIME?  Then she says all of the kids flock to you, you do everything for them, they all come have dinner at your house, they are always there and I am always alone...she started crying and screaming...and I said this...in a calm tone...W...do you ever invite them over for dinner?...she lost it...I shouldn't have to...I was like they are my kids and I call them and say dinner at 7:00..if they come they come, if not no biggie.  She starts screaming aren't you mother of the year...well I can't let you steal all the glory and I will rearrange MY whole weekend to drive all the way there just to feed the stupid cat... then she hung up on me...(her trademark...she loves calling screaming, not letting me say a word and hanging up)...then she blew up my phone with several texts...I waited til she was done and said "ok".

I am a very giving person, right..I'm the caretaker...I do stuff for people...my kids, friends, I am reliable.  I'm not looking to be mother of the year...ever, I am not even close...but if one of my kids needs me, step or biological, and I am capable of helping I will.  Now if I had plans for the weekend an wasn't going to be around, I would not change my plans to go feed her cat.  But I'm around, they had the 4 days weekend away trip planned before they got the apartment/cat.  Is it really a big deal to help her out...the kid reached out to me...what was I suppose to say...hang on let me call W and see  if it's ok with her?  Such double standards, I need to tell her/ask her everything but she tells me NOTHING. 

I've just about had it.  I don't deserve to be treated like this.  She left me yet she's still dictating what I can and can't do.

[Enabler]

Re-read your last message and think about 'Core Shame'... or without jargon, if you felt like you were a worthless piece of poop, how would your actions make her feel... not how you would feel, but how she would feel... Empathy time.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Re-read your last message and think about 'Core Shame'... or without jargon, if you felt like you were a worthless piece of poop, how would your actions make her feel... not how you would feel, but how she would feel... Empathy time.

Yes, I get the core shame.  But at the same time, if she doesn't want to help her kid because she doesn't want  "MY whole weekend consumed with a cat".  I didn't know step DD asked her and she said no.  The kid asked me I said ok.  Was that wrong?  Should I have said no?  The other thing my W said on the phone repeatedly was "you are not hearing me".  I was hearing her, I know what she was saying, she didn't want to do it, but now feels like the bad guy and has to do it because she doesn't want to look like a piece of poop to HER kid by not doing it and step mommy looks like the super hero...I'm not giving the kid 1 Million $$$$.  I'm feeding her cat.  Why all the frickin drama around it.  I'm going to visit step dd right now.  stay tuned... ughhhhhh

SH4

[Enabler]

I’m not suggesting you have done anything ‘wrong’, you’re actions were well motivated and founded in kindness... your W reaction (and I think I’m safe to say emotional reaction rather than rational reaction) have made you feel hurt. Thinking about this from a drama triangle perspective you’re all now spinning around the triangle taking it in turns to feel like the victim. At some point all three players have felt like the victim. Had the transaction just involved you and the step daughter I’m sure the transaction would have looked a lot different... “thanks... bottle of wine for your troubles... bosh” everyone’s happy.

Could you have done anything here to prevent this? I don’t think so unless you were hyper vigilant of all things to do with people of importance to your W (which maybe prudent, but also walking on eggshells).

Could you have reacted differently? Yes. Rightly or wrongly you can see how she feels bad about herself because of something you did. Is her reaction reasonable? Probably not. Could you validate the feeling from a perspective of empathy... yes. As Once Removed said a few posts ago there are sometimes when you just need to listen and she needs to be heard. Have you read the article on reflective listening where you reflect back to them your understanding of what they have said. Defending your position added fuel to the fire.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

I'm not hurt by her reaction.  Not at all.  I think I've gotten to a place of acceptance where I'm not going to let her hurt me anymore.  I've allowed that for too long.  It's sad to see the situation through different glasses.  To me her reaction was petty.

I'm not sure how I could have reacted differently, seeing I didn't really "react" to her at all.  I listened to her RANT at me on the phone and accuse me of trying to be mother of the f'ing year.  I did listen to her, but for her listening isn't enough, for her, unless you agree with her then you aren't listening and if your opinion differs then you are being negative.  Yes you are right W, they shouldn't have taken in the cat last week when they had the trip planned.  I did not defend my position to her at all on the phone.  All I said was yes she texted me and yes I said I would feed the cat.  To me it feels like she was trying to punish Step dd by saying no and because I said yes (I didn't know step DD had asked her) I made her look like an butthole and now she had to change her plans to do it but doesn't want to.  So now she's mad at me...which at this point I really don't care.  I'm just venting here.  I'm mad that she's telling me I have to communicate with her when it comes to step dd, but yet she won't communicate with me when it comes to my kids...nor do I expect her to.

Yes, I have read about reflective listening and it's something we have practiced with T for many years.  We can sit in his office and I can repeat back something and she will say...no that's not what I said you are twisting it and he will sit there baffled because I I said it almost exactly the same but one or two words off.  Her..."SEE SHE WASN'T LISTENING"...him but W ..she said the exact same thing...her storms out of office and slams door because HE PICKED YOU..HE'S ON YOUR SIDE and HATES ME.   

This thing with step DD and the cat..it's just another example of something small that she's blown up into chaos and just gives her another reason to "stay away".

SH4

[once removed]

I read something someone on here posted about they leave so we will chase them and grovel and beg.  I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BEG ANYONE for ANYTHING!  I am better than that!

this is a significant generalization without much evidence.

when my ex broke up with me, she didnt do it so i would chase or grovel or beg. is that a message your partner is sending?

I've just about had it.  I don't deserve to be treated like this.  She left me yet she's still dictating what I can and can't do.

i hear your frustration.

how are you feeling about the state of the relationship these days?

are you venting? are you still trying to save it or thinking about stepping away?

[Stillhopeful4]

i hear your frustration.

how are you feeling about the state of the relationship these days?

are you venting? are you still trying to save it or thinking about stepping away?

I'm not sure how I'm feeling.  I'm trying to understand it better, and I'm seeing so many similarities with so many people on here.

I'm venting.  I'm still hoping it can be saved, but lately I'm having doubts.  I'm not ready to step away...YET.

SH4

[once removed]

I'm venting.

understood.

and, understandable.

I'm seeing so many similarities with so many people on here.

when i arrived here, nearly nine years ago, it was the most valuable possible thing.

to know that there were others going through what i was. to know i wasnt alone. to know that others were experiencing what felt, up until that time, it was indescribable.

it feels amazing.

if you are trying to save your relationship, it can be a double edged sword.

the breakdown of your relationship is unique to your relationship. its unique to you. its unique to your wife.

understanding what has broken it down over time is key...whether it be to, ideally, resolve it, or, possibly walking away with your shell intact.

 

your wife is in crisis mode. think of a midlife crisis, or a mental breakdown.

shes woken up, and she doesnt know who she is, who shes been, where the last years of her life have gone.

as challenging as it may be, imagine yourself in this position. step into those shoes. its critical.

some of it, a lot of it, has to do with you and your relationship.

some of it has to do with the struggles she faces as a person with limited coping skills, and unstable sense of self, and world view. all of that within the context of a relationship where she has been unhappy.

so, as a starting point, what does a person in that position need? what would you need if it were happening to you?

[Harri]

Post limit has been reached and thread has been locked and split.  Part 4 is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340185.msg13081926#msg13081926

Thank you