I’m being painted black again ... I’m exhausted ...

[secretgirl]

So if you’ve been following some of my posts my ubpdbf and I have been arguing a lot last few weeks ...
then we fixed it because I tried showing him I’m more understanding and I didn’t take things as personally anymore or reacted ... things were going great. We had a wonderful date Friday night ... he bought me presents , we went for dinner and dessert. We both dressed up ... it was a beautiful beautiful night. Then weekend rolls around and couple days he’s all awkward and shorter in his responses so I asked what’s wrong later on he revealed over phone call that I “put stuff into his head “ because of something I said ...
we got over it eventually , I soothed him both days and he seemed to have gotten over it both days ... we continued our convos like normal ... today again, he went awkward and I asked again what’s wrong ? And told I’m im really trying on my end to show him He can trust me but if he can’t ever trust me then he should ask himself why he’s with me ? I asked him why he is with me and what he loves about me ?

And BoOM that must’ve set a trigger off cause then he went off calling me a liar ... because of 2 episodes he clearly wasn’t sharing the previous days ... (held them in until now).
He accused me of wearing an inappropriate dress for a kids place (I showed him of a pic of me few years back ... we were reminiscing on old photos)... and this was a lie because if he would’ve asked me where it was taken, it was actually at a bar ? Lol

And second one ... he accused me of apparently “checking out kids sitting at a booth in the window reflection of the desert place ... and wanting their attention” which frankly , I have NO idea what he’s talking about because I am blind (need glasses which he knows...) so there’s no way even if I looked at the window I could see their reflection... and two, I prove myself day in and day out that I’m a good gf. I never check out guys in front of him, I’m always going over the top to make sure I’m only giving him eye contact. Like it’s insane at how much effort I put into making him FEEL secure ... I’m SO frustrated. I told him of these things and he still insists I’m a “liar” and I will be a “liar until the day I die.” Because I will not accept his accusations...

I’m so PLEASE READing pissed to put it lightly ... help.

It’s sad it’s like he accuses me of always wanting to fight and cause drama and then the days I show I don’t wanna fight , don’t engage , and am there for him and things go well, he keeps trying to start stuff... it’s almost like he can’t bare having too much happiness ... it’s almost like as soon as things are going TOO well, he’s gotta PLEASE READ it up. Like to be honest , some of his past accusations /fight starters had SOME truth behind it ... but these are by far , the weirdest , most untrue & most comical I’ve heard of yet to this point in our relationship...

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[CryWolf]

Hey secret, I know what your email going through.

Sadly, you’re right when everything goes too well the person with bpd self sabatages. Things become “too perfect” and there abandonment comes in as they think this happiness will go away and taken away from them. The breaking up or causing fights is a way to see if you love them and will stay no matter what  orrrrr them leaving makes them feel More secure by leaving. It’s a bit crazy to understand this as they desperately want love but self sabatoge.

[Tsunami Sailor]

We probably all relate to what you're going through, unfortunately. 

It's enough to make a sane person hesitate when they recognize that the relationship has been good for a few days. 

[secretgirl]

I agree... I'm like legit SO mad... he keeps trying to get me to "own up" to my mistakes. and I refused... I'm like own up to what? your false accusations? you called me a LIAR UNTIL the day I die... I'm NOT taking that lightly. and if you think the person you LOVE is a liar, then why are you even texting me still? I think he lost it and blocked me now... LOL good riddance. PLEASE READ it's frustrating cause you waste so much time actually PROVING yourself... and it's never ever good enough. and I'd like to think I'm a VERY strong person... like I'm sure we ALL are for being put through these tests and this stupid PLEASE READ. I honestly just feel bad for them. I can't imagine wanting love so badly.. and then PLEASE READing it up so badly... I wonder if they'll ever be happy?

[once removed]

LOL good riddance

is this an honest reflection of what youre feeling right now?

this board, as a support group, can either be a constructive or destructive to your relationship; it is what you make of it. it can be a place to come and get centered, to explore solutions to difficult relationship conflict, to get ourselves, and our relationship on a healthier trajectory. or it can be a place to vent, to badmouth our partners, and to get validation in our side of the conflict.

are you doing more of the latter? is it helpful?

the reality is that a couple of times a week, the two of you have a squabble, both of you escalate the drama, you cut each other off for a few days, and then youre right back at it. you post about it here after the fact rather than proactively trying to resolve conflict in your relationship.

this is highly destructive (every makeup/breakup cycle diminishes trust in a relationship), and youre on a trajectory where you will be broken up in no time, and having been through it myself, i suspect you will not be feeling "good riddance".

are you comfortable with where things are? do you want to continue on this path?

[secretgirl]

is this an honest reflection of what youre feeling right now?

this board, as a support group, can either be a constructive or destructive to your relationship; it is what you make of it. it can be a place to come and get centered, to explore solutions to difficult relationship conflict, to get ourselves, and our relationship on a healthier trajectory. or it can be a place to vent, to badmouth our partners, and to get validation in our side of the conflict.

are you doing more of the latter? is it helpful?

the reality is that a couple of times a week, the two of you have a squabble, both of you escalate the drama, you cut each other off for a few days, and then youre right back at it. you post about it here after the fact rather than proactively trying to resolve conflict in your relationship.

this is highly destructive (every makeup/breakup cycle diminishes trust in a relationship), and youre on a trajectory where you will be broken up in no time, and having been through it myself, i suspect you will not be feeling "good riddance".

are you comfortable with where things are? do you want to continue on this path?

Hey OR, I agree I think that was mainly just said as a frustration and a true reflection for sure though. I will NOT apologize for something I'm being accused of which is UNTRUE. He blocked me also when I stuck up for myself and told him this exact statement...
I'm honestly unsure how to fix this at all anymore... this whole weekend went by well because I've been taking your advice, and the things I've learned on this boardroom to better our r/s... and I've managed to use those tips/techniques and managed to avoid two possible arguments that could've occurred by being there for him and putting my emotions aside etc.

But then this happened... everything, in my eyes, was going perfectly smooth... we were communicating well... we were both there for each other (I'd say me moreso for him though... I def. put my emotions aside A LOT to listen to him and his POV as opposed to expressing my own)... and then it's literally like he couldn't STAND how well it was going... I am honestly SO frustrated... I know I'm not going to apologize for what he's accusing me of because it's absolutely bonkers (to put it respectfully). But if he does come back, what do I even do from then on?
I'm seriously in a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation here OR... like I'm getting SO frustrated because it seems NO approach here is working. I can't get frustrated because that's obv failed, I can't express me emotions without listening to HIS first (because that's failed), and even when I use SET and don't fall into FOG and listen and be kind and understanding and respectful it's like this random TEST comes out but in such a rude way that I don't even know how to respond...
Like in person, I'm seriously the kindest person to him ever... I never raise my voice, yeah sometimes we go more back and forth than we should (due to the posts you've seen me post on here... ) but I feel like the back and forth is just honestly me trying to express my own emotions and feel HEARD.

I've managed to avoid arguments the last week with the techniques you helped me with and this boardroom... but now this happened out of nowhere. I'm not even sure how to register someone accusing me straight up of such random things without even asking me... it's like being blindsided.
Like going from being told he loves me and cries at the fact he's so lucky to have me... and everything is going smoothly , and I console him etc... and then all of a sudden, BOOM... I'm apparently a "f*ucking liar" in his words because of the two things I wrote above... and I'm literally sitting there stunned, trying to catch my breath , with a reaction of "HUH?"
I had nothing else to say besides that I had no idea where these accusations came from... and that I'm not going to do as he tells me and "own up to MY LIES" when I don't even know what I'm owning up to... I have no lies to own up to, just the false accusations he made up of me.
Then he proceeded to tell me that I'm always gonna be a wh*ore and that I'm never gonna be satisfied with just him (again, no idea where this came from), and some other super disrespectful nasty things he said to me ... and that I will LIE until the DAY I DIE. I'm honestly SHOCKED OR.

I can't even process this... all I told him was that I'm not apologizing for things or "owning up" to lies I've never told. and then he blocked me.

So I AM hurt... I'm P*issed to be honest that I've spent 8 months trying to prove to this man how TRUSTWORTHY and LOYAL of a woman I am, just to get told I'm a "liar" because of things he's managed to twist around in his head and accuse me of... RANDOM things too.. like I LEGIT did not check out ANYONE. I never do! WHy would I feed his insecurity? I always make sure I'm giving only him eye contact unless it's our server... I never look at other men etc. so to be accused of this when I'm being a faithful gf is hurtful as h*ell... so I'm honestly stunned and p*issed and sad all at the SAME time.
I'm not even sure how I would approach this even if he did approach me. It's unacceptable... I really want him to seek help for this but I can't force that obviously... and I really wish he would be able to empathize with me and see my perspective or how much I would be hurting if he knew how hurtful his accusations are...
Thoughts?

[once removed]

but I feel like the back and forth is just honestly me trying to express my own emotions and feel HEARD

not long after i broke up with my ex, i came here.

one of the first things i learned was that we often say things louder in order to be heard.

people with bpd traits read and hear just fine. the issue is really about listening and engaging, on both sides.

it was an eyeopener.

lets walk it through. a lot of what you detail in your OP isnt clear. the source of conflict between the two of you, is not entirely clear.

I “put stuff into his head “ because of something I said ...
we got over it eventually ,

what did you say that put stuff into his head? how did you respond when he told you?

And told I’m im really trying on my end to show him He can trust me but if he can’t ever trust me then he should ask himself why he’s with me ? I asked him why he is with me and what he loves about me ?

this is another breakup threat. you resort to these when you dont feel heard. i did too...probably, literally, a couple of hundred times in our three years together. you have to understand that this discourages listening and trust. it is setting an example for your relationship that conflict is resolved by threatening to breakup, and when one of you does it, the other calls bluff, the two of you dont speak for days, and then youre right back at it.

because of 2 episodes he clearly wasn’t sharing the previous days ... (held them in until now).
He accused me of wearing an inappropriate dress for a kids place (I showed him of a pic of me few years back ... we were reminiscing on old photos)... and this was a lie because if he would’ve asked me where it was taken, it was actually at a bar ? Lol

this is hard to follow. try to remove emotion from it. what, from his point of view, was he upset about? was he upset about the way you dressed in general? was he upset about the way you dressed at the location?

And second one ... he accused me of apparently “checking out kids sitting at a booth in the window reflection of the desert place ... and wanting their attention” which frankly , I have NO idea what he’s talking about

is he accusing you of trying to pick up children? what is the context here? what is he trying to say?

I will NOT apologize for something I'm being accused of which is UNTRUE

what, specifically, do you think youre being accused of?

Then he proceeded to tell me that I'm always gonna be a wh*ore and that I'm never gonna be satisfied with just him

do you think that this is what this was primarily about?

[secretgirl]

Thanks for replying OR... okay here it goes... to answer all your Q's thoroughly.


"what did you say that put stuff into his head? how did you respond when he told you?"

So from the time where I had a sense of mistrust in him... and he met me with ANGER ... I apologized that I mistrusted him as clearly this was a huge trigger for him... And he had told me that he wasn't cheating because he sent me a screen shot of a conversation from his brother and him telling his brother in the text that he was coming over to his place...
I had told him that It's not that I did not trust him going to his brother's... it's just that I had FEELINGS of mistrust in that moment.. and just wanted him to be there for me emotionally, and reassure me that everything will be fine (which he didn't, he met me with anger). So I proceeded to tell him that if I TRULY did not trust him, then I would not trust him regardless of his screen shot because good liars (like my one NPD ex) can in fact change female's names to male's names in their phone to pretend like they're being honest etc... so I said it wasn't the fact I did not trust him, it was moreso that I was feeling uneasy at the time and just wanted him to be there for me.
So... me saying that people can change names to lie is what he meant by "put stuff into his head."
 



"this is another breakup threat. you resort to these when you dont feel heard. i did too...probably, literally, a couple of hundred times in our three years together. you have to understand that this discourages listening and trust. it is setting an example for your relationship that conflict is resolved by threatening to breakup, and when one of you does it, the other calls bluff, the two of you dont speak for days, and then youre right back at it."

Understandably so... but my Therapist did tell me to ask him next time he threatens to leave me what is it he loves about me if he can't trust me and thinks so badly of me? She said it should make him THINK of why he can love someone he thinks so badly of.. but obv it backfired at this moment.




"this is hard to follow. try to remove emotion from it. what, from his point of view, was he upset about? was he upset about the way you dressed in general? was he upset about the way you dressed at the location? "

Hmmm... yes I had showed him a photo of me from 2-3 years back (when I did not know him at all), and it was of me wearing a dress with slits in it... so I'm unsure to be entirely honest... but I'm assuming he was upset because of what I was wearing to a "children's place" ... but instead of asking me where the photo was taken before he accused, he accused. SO I had told him that if he had asked me, he would've known the photo was taken at a Bar... NOT a children's place. And he actually went quiet about this afterwards... (probably felt silly accusing) and then stuck to his second accusation until death.



"is he accusing you of trying to pick up children? what is the context here? what is he trying to say? "

He was accusing me of trying to show off to a bunch of young boys sitting at a booth because I happened to walk by them in a dress I wore on our date (I looked pretty sexy-I was dressed nicely so obv this set off his jealousy radar). But then proceeded to say that I SAW the kids' reflection in the dessert place window... and that's WHY I walked over in their direction...
The real story was... I wanted to SIT down at a TABLE acorss from the kids' booth, and I noticed it was a handicap table so I refused to sit down at a handicap table...
So you can see from my end how this is just straight up accusatory and false...
And for me to have actually seen boys' relfection in a window would've been false regardless of me "wanting attention" or not wanting attention because I wear GLASSES with a prescription of -2.5
so either way you look at it, I'd be BLIND enough to see their reflection clearly in a window... and I brought all this up and he STILL stuck to his story because clearly at this point he did not want to admit he's wrong... he wanted me to be seen as a "sl*ut who wanted children's attention" and that I'm "f*ucked up for wanting the attention of kids."

Which is hurtful cause...
A. I'm blind... so he's accusing me of lying of a fact he's aware of.
B. Why would I check out children? I'm not a pedophile
C. Why would I want attention? I'm an ex exotic dancer... if I wanted attention, it would be CLEAR and KNOWN.
D. I'm a confident woman... I don't need attention and shouldn't have to justify an allegation so accusatory and nonsensical? and I am , in fact, SO confident , that if I so wishd to "hit on " a man, it would be OBVIOUS... it wouldn't be me looking in the reflection of a window... to TRY and get attention...
and E. My bf should known me WELL enough that ALL these accusations are false... and that he's clearly TRYING to hurt me at this point by bashing my character.
I have never once shown him I am unfaithful in any regard, or a pedophile of any sort... so I'm honestly SHOCKED and how far he will go to TRY and accuse me or diminish my good qualities.


and the answer to your last question... YES, I think this is what ALL this was about... it's what ALL it HAS Been about since day 1 . Since the first day he met me at work... not only ishe being hypocritical because he met me in this industry... so should I go and accuse him of seeing dancers/ working girls? and see him as being unfaithful? Ironically enough, I never have done that... I brought up my insecurity ONCE. Which I explained in one of my posts... but it's ironic to me that he's also a "client" and I met him as a "client" and I quit my job FOR him. and he's still unsatisfied with my trust regardless of how well behaved I am, and respectful.
It's like I said above in the post, I feel like he will NEVER have trust in me and as soon as things go too well he has to go in sabotage mode and find SOME reason to push me away... and it always involves my fidelity in some manner because he KNOWS it cuts me deep. Because of my past, it's almost an even MORE sensitive topic to me than most... he KNOWS I hated my job, he KNOWS I hate men who paw at me, he KNOWS the last thing I want outside of my work is to have men hitting on me/want their sexual attention...
yet... it always comes back to hurting me in these ways?
How do I respond to these types of accusations well? Especially when he KNOWS they dig deep for me. It's an issue I see my own Therapist for... the fact that I want people to VIEW me as a person with FEELINGS and not feel used... so his accusations cut me deeper than any other woman maybe not in this industry? No clue. But it f*uckin hurts.
I don't even know how I'd approach this even if he came back to me... what boundaries would need to be set up? How could I tolerate this behavior/abuse better?

[secretgirl]

She was hooked on conflict, like an addict.

She (and any pwBPD) needs the constant affirmation that comes from being pursued.  That doesn't last though in a normal relationship (nor should it!).  each partner should get comfortable with eachother, build trust, and be able to be themselves without the pressure of constantly having to prove their love and devotion.

Instead of being able to accept the nature of a long term relationship after passion dies down, pwBPD panic at the lack of engagement, and provoke conflict.

once they see they can get the result they want by creating conflict and drama (the result being: you proving your love by begging to come back), they learn to use that to try to control you and ensure they get the constant reinforcement they crave.

they are not capable of understanding the problems inherent with this, the pain & stress they cause others, or the damage it does to the trust between two partners.

they may have some inklings of regret over the things they say and do, and may even admit this on occasion, giving you false hope that over time it may improve.

But when their feelings of abandonment or loss are triggered again, it easily swamps any regrets they might have felt, and they go right back to provoking conflict. 

An endless cycle until you decide to get out for good, or one of you dies

I can totally relate to this ... I just got my first official discard yesterday from my now ubpdex... and man was I surprised and shocked (even though I shouldn’t be ). I got full on blocked over the phone which has never happened before so clearly the outbursts are getting worse and worse . Who wants to be blocked during a time of conflict ? most people would want to workout any sort of negative scenario right ?
my ubpdexbf literally tried forcing a situation onto me which wasn’t true ... to “prove I’m a liar” in his head , and be able to paint me black. And when I didn’t agree to “owning up” to these false lies, he blocked me. 3yrold child syndrome at its best .

I think what was said in this quote was very true ... they don’t realize how damaging the consequences to their actions are... it’s a total addiction to drama (which of course they won’t pin on themselves , instead, tell you that YOU like drama).
My suggestion ? Never let them suck you back in with drama like Pete said here ...

Once they know that they can use this against you, man oh man does it get worse. I’m generally very strong and smell BS a mile away... but I’m also somewhat codependent (something I’m working on myself with my T) and also willl apologize for things that sometimes I could see a slight flaw in? For myself ?

The best is to almost realize that this “fantasy” love wasn’t real at all... as heartbreaking as it is ... because no one who actually loves you or says the intense things they do, WOULD block you, accuse you, gaslight you, manipulate you, devalue you, invalidate you, or make you feel outright crazy for having your OWN feelings.

People who truly love you listen ... and even if in a moment or rage they say something they regret , they will generally apologize ASAP because of the guilt . Not let it hang over your head , using it as a 3yrold would to manipulate their parent into getting what they want...
I dealt with this for only 8 months and have been forced into a corner of self doubt , manipulation and isolation . Lol and for what? Not “owning up” to false accusations ?  I’m kind , but not THAT kind. I’m forgiving but won’t lose self-respect.
The issue is I over apologized at times from day 1 which clearly created this cycle. I’ve also given too many ultimatums and made too strong of boundaries I couldn’t stick to before which also led to this problem. I’m aware of this now ... I think if I were to give any advice from this personal experience of mine about to date a pwbpd is ... treat them like a kid. What would a 3yrold do? In any situation... then don’t let them get away wi th things from DAY 1. They will either leave you in the dust quick OR learn to respect you... it’s hard though not to fall on the idealization phase ... I was lonely and without trust of men for years now so damn did I ever fall... thought he was perfect, too good to be true ... clearly this should’ve been a red flag. They mirror ... of course it’s easy to love someone who becomes exactly what you want at the beginning ... you wonder if you’re in the world of Alice in wonderland ... things begin to turn from anything and everything you wanted and reveal their true forms...
that’s what I think it’s like for us when we really think back.
Everyone of us has their limit though...
even now I’m still in love with my ubpdexbf and have No idea what I’d do if or when he unblocks me and decides to contact. I just know in my heart , I take a bit more strength away from this situation.
Whether or not we work it out , I think I have officially lost the idealization phase in my head ... that intense love is now gone , as sad as it is . It was probably gone for my bf long ago ( maybe never even was there past the first few months?)... I’m trying to see it more as a mentally ill person now and have sympathy as opposed to a healthy person who just hurts you out of spite ...
this mental shift alone can help. But then you’re not going to love them the same as your “hero” “knight” “prince/princess.”
So in a sense , the whole soulmate idea is gone...
I think like others have said ... for me , there’s always the hope of them becoming your soulmate again... that perfect person you first fell for which obviously wasn’t real... the person who was so kind and thoughtful of your feelings (who now diminishes your feeling due to fear of being “controlled”.)

A lot of us have these feelings CK. You should be proud of your strength for not being sucked back in. I hope I have this same strength if my ex messages me ... or at least the strength to never let his drama GET to me. I think that’s the key here.

I think though for the soulmate idea ... I think it has to do with peoples limits... some people are more patient with being pushed around /have a lot more patience to give and some people (maybe like you and I ) have less patience and deal with less BS faster . Not one of us is stronger or weaker for this ... the manipulation of mentally ill people is hard to avoid ... even experienced people fall into the trap again. I dated an ex with NPD and APD... he was Far more abusive than my Ubpdexbf maybe that’s why, in comparison, I thought I could handle him more ? Maybe I can but then my mentality has to shift from “knight” to “person with illness they can’t help.”
In an ideal world, they’d all seek therapy and get better so we would all be happy with them forever. It’s a shame that someone who has such a big heart /so much love to give at times will not see their destructive behaviour during other times enough to want to fix it.
So the soulmate thing... it’s probably just the hope that leaves us feeling this way. And then time and time again being painted white right after they come back doesn’t help either ... at least it doesn’t for me... it’s a mind f*uck to me. My ex literally spent hours crying Friday evening telling me how much he loves me and I’m HIS soulmate and perfect other half and how he knows he hurts me and how he’s sorry and he knows he trusts me 100% etc etc only to have him be the complete opposite the next day, trying to get me to own up to lies of me “wanting attention from other guys!” Oh man,.. what happened to the dude who literally said all those nice things two days prior?
It can mess with anyone s mind ... we’ve all been there. I’m just realizing it’s been a head game all along. As much as it hurts me to let the soulmate idea go . I think it’s time to put it to rest. And realize it for it truly is , a r/s with an emotionally dysfunctional and mentally ill individual.

[once removed]

it's just that I had FEELINGS of mistrust in that moment.. and just wanted him to be there for me emotionally, and reassure me that everything will be fine

i dont know that this is a realistic way to communicate your needs or have them met.

to say that you have a sense of mistrust in him, and then to say its not that you truly distrust him, that its just a feeling you want him to soothe, is a hard message to read for anyone; it can be even harder for someone with bpd traits.

Wisemind is the synthesis of our logical and emotional brain. its the number one tool taught here, because the rest of the tools are far more applicable when we are in a state of Wisemind: https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

in essence, when we have these feelings, rather than act on them, we first probe them. we examine where they are coming from. rather than place them on someone else, we effectively self soothe.

wouldnt it make more sense, or be more constructive, if you want reassurance, to say something like "im just feeling kind of insecure at the moment. i could use some love and reassurance"?

this is really at the heart of the conflict between the two of you. you are both fighting for security and reassurance in the relationship with expectations of mind reading, and destructive responses to each other that only inflame the conflict.

Understandably so... but my Therapist did tell me to ask him next time he threatens to leave me what is it he loves about me if he can't trust me and thinks so badly of me? She said it should make him THINK of why he can love someone he thinks so badly of.. but obv it backfired at this moment.

it backfired in the moment because in that context, its deflecting.

think about it. when youre telling him about your feelings in the relationship, and youre worked up, how would you feel if he responded "well why are you even with me then?".

i had a friend who, whenever you complained about his behavior, would first be really defensive, and then, eventually, hed get into a mode and hed just start saying things like "well i guess im just a terrible person. i dont know why youre even friends with me". in the context you described, its a bit like that.

what is a great idea, before things go to a point of no return, would be to say something like "i know we are both angry. lets not say things we might regret. lets remember that we love each other, and why."

I'm never gonna be satisfied with just him

when a person with bpd is traits is upset with you, they struggle to express it in a constructive way.

often times, they go from 0-60, and they throw the kitchen sink. it can get pretty overwhelming. but if you listen, underneath it all, there is usually a valid feeling that they are struggling to express.

what he was really saying is "im feeling insecure right now and i could really use some reassurance".

can you see how in a lot of ways, you are both doing this, and setting it as an example for each other, a model for how the two of you handle conflict?

How do I respond to these types of accusations well?

you dont.

it isnt really about the accusations; just like when you told him you were feeling distrustful, it wasnt about you accusing him, and him sending a screen shot didnt help anything.

dont JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) was the first communication tool i learned from this board. its one of the easiest, because its mainly about just not making things worse, not feeding into the drama, and not getting caught up in character attacks.

you cant really JADE and listen at the same time. shift your instincts from one of defending yourself, or fighting fire with fire, or trying to prove him wrong, to one of listening.

having said that, you dont want to set an example where its okay for him to call you a whore, or other things; thats not something youre required to listen to. if youre overwhelmed, or if hes out of line, its okay to say that, and to take a time out. time outs arent something to use as a punishment. theyre a last resort when things have broken down beyond the point of no return. it might sound something like "i want to listen to what you have to say. im feeling overwhelmed right now, and i dont think this is a healthy way for us to communicate with each other. im going to _____ (take a walk, take a bath, whatever), and ill call you back in _____ (15 minutes, 20, 30, whatever.)."

personalize it, speak in the way that you would normally speak, but keep it blame free. when youve calmed down, its easier to listen, and more than likely, he will be in a better place too.

thats the message that you want to send: that you want to listen and hear him, but that there are better, more constructive ways for him to get his needs met than throwing hurtful accusations and calling names.

when things are resolved, and returned to calm, its okay to express some of your hurt, and its best to do it in a non accusatory way.

for example, you might ask: "do you really think im a whore?". then let him talk. more than likely, he will backtrack big time. dont react in a loaded way. just reflect on what hes saying. its okay to let him know that things like that really hurt, and that you think name calling hurts your relationship...that you think the two of you are better than that.

its about leading by example, and changing the model of conflict the two of you have. ideally, he will begin to follow your example. its a combination of listening with empathy, not tolerating abuse or disrespect, and positive reinforcement.

make sense?

[once removed]

My suggestion ? Never let them suck you back in with drama like Pete said here ...
...
Once they know that they can use this against you, man oh man does it get worse.
...
The best is to almost realize that this “fantasy” love wasn’t real at all.
...
I’m just realizing it’s been a head game all along.

secretgirl,

if youre trying to improve your relationship, does it make sense to run to the detaching board when things are tough, and say these things about your boyfriend/relationship?

sure it feels good when youre angry. doesnt it make conflict harder to resolve?

do you want to detach, or do you want to improve your relationship? its impossible to do both.

[secretgirl]

secretgirl,

if youre trying to improve your relationship, does it make sense to run to the detaching board when things are tough, and say these things about your boyfriend/relationship?

sure it feels good when youre angry. doesnt it make conflict harder to resolve?

do you want to detach, or do you want to improve your relationship? its impossible to do both.

Understandable... not sure I meant detach in such a way but more so meant in a way that If this will work for us , if he comes back and I decide I want it to work (which I’m STILL deciding on)... then the only way I think I can approach it IS to detach emotionally in a sense. I have to start seeing him as a mentally ill individual.

The problem I think for me OR is that I keep viewing him as a “non” and that’s why I keep getting frustrated and almost talking to him as a “non.” I had that epiphany this morning as I wrote in that detachment forum ... I still have to decide for myself what I personally want to do if he comes back because honestly thinking at the accusations , I don’t know if I have it in me ... I need this space to think for myself too how to approach it if he does come back.
I value your advice 100%. If I do decide to work this through with my ex , if he comes back, the only way o can actually apply your advice is to change my mindset completely... and stop being so emotionally charged in it also... and take offence to the things he does . I’m still struggling with this. I’m still struggling with the black and white thinking /splitting and emotional abuse aspect . I’m also not used to dating anyone who isn’t there for me emotionally. It’s the first time I’m dating someone with bpd. I’m still wrapping my head around all this .

I have to figure out how to take your advice and actually apply it ... I applied it last time and all weekend which is fine ... but then it seems he tests me and pushes and Escalades it more and not to do or say more and more hurtful things each time to see if I’ll listen then too. I’m exhausted. Lol . Not even laughing cause it s funny but purely out of frustration.

[once removed]

not sure I meant detach

i was referring to posting on the detaching board (a board for people dealing with the stages of grief, not working to improve their relationship), slagging your boyfriend, getting back with him, then repeating the same kinds of conflict...repeating the same cycle over and over.

the validation may feel good in the moment, especially since a lot of us dont get it in our relationships. ultimately though, it contributes to an entrenched pattern of how the two of you deal with conflict.

I have to start seeing him as a mentally ill individual.

speaking from experience, theres a fine line between accepting a person for who they are (whether we like it or not) and seeing them as lesser than us.

do more of the former and less of the latter. your boyfriend may have a particular lack of skills, both in relationships, and in how he copes, and to succeed, you will need to be the emotional leader. but right now, this is more about two people bringing destructive communication and coping to a relationship than it is about BPD.

I still have to decide for myself what I personally want to do if he comes back because honestly thinking at the accusations , I don’t know if I have it in me ... I need this space to think for myself too how to approach it if he does come back.

its an important question all of us need to come to grips with and to face. the fact of the matter is, the way things are working now, they arent working, and each makeup/breakup cycle damages trust; in the big picture, things are getting worse. its important to examine how much of this is workable and resolvable.

if he comes back, the only way o can actually apply your advice is to change my mindset completely... and stop being so emotionally charged in it also... and take offence to the things he does . I’m still struggling with this.

our partners are inherently very difficult people. you will feel emotionally charged. you will take offense to the things he does. dont expect not to; it wouldnt necessarily be healthy not to. the question is more about whether the two of you can deal with it constructively, get on a healthier trajectory, and whether or not you are prepared to lead that effort.

PS. i replied to your earlier post about the argument(s). not sure if you saw it.

[secretgirl]

100%... I actually did not see your previous post due to the fact sometimes I reply on my phone and I can't see much on the screen so I will reply to both posts in this one... I apologize.

Yes... I'm struggling with the line of acceptance I believe... because in my past, I was person with very strong boundaries. The one to always ditch... maybe this is why I'm even unsure of myself in this particular r/s.

So I agree in the sense that I do have to decide whether or not I will be able to lead a good example in this r/s.

But to reply to your other post... (still don't know how to properly quote on here , so bare with me please)...


"i dont know that this is a realistic way to communicate your needs or have them met.
to say that you have a sense of mistrust in him, and then to say its not that you truly distrust him, that its just a feeling you want him to soothe, is a hard message to read for anyone; it can be even harder for someone with bpd traits.

Wisemind is the synthesis of our logical and emotional brain. its the number one tool taught here, because the rest of the tools are far more applicable when we are in a state of Wisemind: https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

in essence, when we have these feelings, rather than act on them, we first probe them. we examine where they are coming from. rather than place them on someone else, we effectively self soothe.

wouldnt it make more sense, or be more constructive, if you want reassurance, to say something like "im just feeling kind of insecure at the moment. i could use some love and reassurance"?



I agree to this 100000000%... the issue is OR, in the first 5 months of our r/s I did not JADE... I was super kind, understanding , thoughtful, etc... and it almost made him see it as a "weakness" and probably which is why he's NOW frustrated that I've "changed" because I'm actually sticking up for myself now instead of crying, begging, pleading, letting him win  (*which my T is teaching me not to do-she says I should stop taking blame for others' abuse/mistakes and look at what I need/feel).

BUT the problem is ALSO the fact that in my PREVIOUS r/s's, I had a boundary of "fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me" and I would dump them. and Go NC. BUT the problem is... I would say ALL but two of my exes did not have PD's (in my awareness). So when I dumped, I did not have the same emotional dysregulation I do with my ubpdexbf (the guy who I'm fighting with now).
It was always a legitimate reason, the guy didn't argue, didn't go against me & undermine the r/s or say hurtful abusive things, and that was that. We both left it at we aren't good for each other because they lied or we had diff. values/ etc etc... things we clearly couldn't agree on or look past...or just simply we were just better off as friends. Most of my exes and I still talk unless of course it ended badly (like my two NPD exes). 

With this guy it's like I am STILL trying to live by the old "tough" me... but he's got me so f*ucked up emotionally because of the idealization phases, that I have a HARD time letting go and emotionally detaching... not sure what kind of neurochemistry this involves to make us so addicted... but I'm assuming it's as similar to when you take a drug (release of dopamine, yadda yadda.. withdrawals).  I'm stuck in this limbo of old me and the new me he's turned me into which I'm unhappy with. because I feel CONFUSED .
So the issue my T said here too (which somewhat agrees with your stance) is that, I'm trying to set up HIGH boundaries like I used to have but because I'm inconsistent due to my feelings with this man, they're seen as weak boundaries, constantly being crossed/tested.
So I HAVE tried saying for the first 5 months things like "honey why are you so upset?" In the first 5 months I had the patience of a nun, I cried INSTEAD of being mad... it's only the last few months I've started to actually get frustrated because I feel like I'm being taken advantage of, unappreciated.
So I know it's me at this point and realizing whether I actually want to deal with this or not and deciding how hard it is for me to let go of certain beliefs I have that I've held strong all my life.
 
Also, I have noticed a sense of weakness with him in my boundaries in a way I've NEVER had with other guys... it's like these cycles have made me into a person I am usually not because I'm afraid of setting off his rage... which was also an unhealthy habit I've built as a defense mechanism...so I abided by his "rules" before just to show I respect him. I feel like a caged bird now which is why it seems his jealousy and outbursts get worse and worse... I LET him get away with me pushing away my male friends, me having NO male contact, me dressing down more because of his jealousy of my breasts showing, me not giving men eye contact (even if it was just being genuinely friendly)... so Am I surprised it's escaladed to something as "crazy" as him assuming I'm wanting attention from a random booth of young boys in an ice cream shop? Probably not surprised.. It was my LACK of boundaries that led me here... which is also why he's probably now shocked that I'm finally like... you know what? this is getting TOO MUCH and it UNACCEPTABLE and clearly, he doesn't like this (this is what I mean in my other post by the 3yrold reaction). This is also my OWN fault. If I am to move forward, I have to make CLEARER boundaries for myself and stick to them.




"it backfired in the moment because in that context, its deflecting.

think about it. when youre telling him about your feelings in the relationship, and youre worked up, how would you feel if he responded "well why are you even with me then?".

i had a friend who, whenever you complained about his behavior, would first be really defensive, and then, eventually, hed get into a mode and hed just start saying things like "well i guess im just a terrible person. i dont know why youre even friends with me". in the context you described, its a bit like that.

what is a great idea, before things go to a point of no return, would be to say something like "i know we are both angry. lets not say things we might regret. lets remember that we love each other, and why.""

I agree.

"when a person with bpd is traits is upset with you, they struggle to express it in a constructive way.

often times, they go from 0-60, and they throw the kitchen sink. it can get pretty overwhelming. but if you listen, underneath it all, there is usually a valid feeling that they are struggling to express.

what he was really saying is "im feeling insecure right now and i could really use some reassurance".

can you see how in a lot of ways, you are both doing this, and setting it as an example for each other, a model for how the two of you handle conflict?"

This was actually very insightful for me , thank you very much OR. It is definitely my weakness when it comes to this particular r/s. The ability to almost look beyond the fog or "bs" of attacks and get to the root of the problem... my T only just started teaching me some ofthis last week... but I will admit, it's HARD for me... because generally I take people's WORDS at face value. She did say something similar one time to me ... she said "you know what his words mean when he says 'you're selfish' and 'you will leave me'?" and I was like "what?" and my T replied: "I'm unloved. I'm not worthy of your love."
And that was a real eye opener for me... and that's why this last date we had, I actually said those exact words to him in person when he was telling me he was so in love with me... I said "me too, and I want you to know you ARE lovable. Even when we don't agree. Know that. I just don't tolerate abuse." And he cried and agreed and promised to never abuse again...and the cycle starts again...and then the whole weekend went by well and I let my own frustrations get the best of me when I said the stupid "why are you with me then ? what do you love about me?" God did I ever feel like ALL the hard work I put in that entire weekend, diffusing tension, went to a complete and utter waste. I AM ashamed of that but at the same time, I guess I'm still stuck in the "non" mindset... where that response shouldn't have solicited (in my eyes) such an extreme rage on his part starting to ACCUSE me of other things then trying to force me to "own up" to lies I never told... Geez. 

 

"you dont.

it isnt really about the accusations; just like when you told him you were feeling distrustful, it wasnt about you accusing him, and him sending a screen shot didnt help anything.

dont JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) was the first communication tool i learned from this board. its one of the easiest, because its mainly about just not making things worse, not feeding into the drama, and not getting caught up in character attacks.

you cant really JADE and listen at the same time. shift your instincts from one of defending yourself, or fighting fire with fire, or trying to prove him wrong, to one of listening.

having said that, you dont want to set an example where its okay for him to call you a whore, or other things; thats not something youre required to listen to. if youre overwhelmed, or if hes out of line, its okay to say that, and to take a time out. time outs arent something to use as a punishment. theyre a last resort when things have broken down beyond the point of no return. it might sound something like "i want to listen to what you have to say. im feeling overwhelmed right now, and i dont think this is a healthy way for us to communicate with each other. im going to _____ (take a walk, take a bath, whatever), and ill call you back in _____ (15 minutes, 20, 30, whatever.)."

personalize it, speak in the way that you would normally speak, but keep it blame free. when youve calmed down, its easier to listen, and more than likely, he will be in a better place too.

thats the message that you want to send: that you want to listen and hear him, but that there are better, more constructive ways for him to get his needs met than throwing hurtful accusations and calling names.

when things are resolved, and returned to calm, its okay to express some of your hurt, and its best to do it in a non accusatory way.

for example, you might ask: "do you really think im a whore?". then let him talk. more than likely, he will backtrack big time. dont react in a loaded way. just reflect on what hes saying. its okay to let him know that things like that really hurt, and that you think name calling hurts your relationship...that you think the two of you are better than that.

its about leading by example, and changing the model of conflict the two of you have. ideally, he will begin to follow your example. its a combination of listening with empathy, not tolerating abuse or disrespect, and positive reinforcement.

make sense?"

Okay... I will take blame for the fact that I have been JADE-ing the last few months... 100%. Admit it. My fault. I just can't help it sometimes. It's hard when you get put down for five months every week at least twice, trying to respond kindly, then all of a sudden something inside you sparks "had enough of this sh*it" and you go into defense mode. God... not a good place to be. Maybe this break/breakup will do us both good. It'll clearly help me reflect a bit more on myself, what I want/need from a partner, what I can provide... maybe I can make a list of scenarios and how I would LIKE to react in the future if we were to speak again. And if he has painted me black forever now, then I guess it'll be a good reminder on what NOT to do if I ever enter a r/s with a pwbpd again.
I think from this last statement, what I'm really seeing in myself as a flaw is... the realization that he will never act like a non and be able to listen DURING a conflict. And that, like you said above, I should wait until things have calmed down before trying to approach with my feelings/thoughts (I have tried this before , and it has worked actually).
I think just sometimes I get frustrated and let my own emotions take over and get frustrated at the fact that he isn't a non and can't be there for me during conflict like a non... which is really, my bad, ultimately. It's a hard transition for me to be honest... dating mostly non's and 2 NPD's (somewhat similar but not entirely similar AT all as a pwBPD)... and then dating a pwbpd (quite low functioning at that), and expecting them to behave like a non. 
Some similarities between this bf and my NPD's are strikingly similar though... like the isolating me, manipulation etc. but I think the intent is for different reasons. My ubpdexbf has admitted he has trust issues, he DOES apologize, he does cry, he does have empathy sometimes, he does see the good in me, he does do nice things and go out of his way to be nice to others... these are the moments that made me fall for him (as I'm sure it's similar for the rest of us on here). But I'm scared of it getting worse and worse over time...

Sorry this reply was long... and I appreciate your thorough replies as well, thank you. Thoughts?
Will he come back to me? In that scenario , let's say I decide to be with him, should I post on here what I would like to reply BEFORE replying?

[ColdKnight]

“. I’m just realizing it’s been a head game all along. As much as it hurts me to let the soulmate idea go . I think it’s time to put it to rest. And realize it for it truly is , a r/s with an emotionally dysfunctional and mentally ill individual”

This is exactly what I am struggling with. You indicated that you still think like he is a non. I am the same way. It’s so hard to wrap your head around the splitting and the devaluation. When they are regular things are soo incredibly good and the next day they are not. I don’t know why it is so hard to grasp that they are mentally ill but it is.

[ColdKnight]

“With this guy it's like I am STILL trying to live by the old "tough" me... but he's got me so f*ucked up emotionally because of the idealization phases, that I have a HARD time letting go and emotionally detaching... not sure what kind of neurochemistry this involves to make us so addicted... but I'm assuming it's as similar to when you take a drug (release of dopamine, yadda yadda.. withdrawals).  I'm stuck in this limbo of old me and the new me he's turned me into which I'm unhappy with. because I feel CONFUSED”

Secretgirl, you hit the nail on the head with this. This is exactly the way I feel. I have always been the one to walk when the bull shiz starts. Walk away and never look back. It’s been 2 months of NC with this girl and I have to fight myself each day to keep from texting her.

[secretgirl]

“. I’m just realizing it’s been a head game all along. As much as it hurts me to let the soulmate idea go . I think it’s time to put it to rest. And realize it for it truly is , a r/s with an emotionally dysfunctional and mentally ill individual”

This is exactly what I am struggling with. You indicated that you still think like he is a non. I am the same way. It’s so hard to wrap your head around the splitting and the devaluation. When they are regular things are soo incredibly good and the next day they are not. I don’t know why it is so hard to grasp that they are mentally ill but it is.

Hey CK it is so incredibly hard... and it's like no matter how hard I try to be strong, set clear boundaries, this guy (as your girl) was SO different that it truly  ed me up . It's like this last argument him and I had, sticking up for myself felt more like the real me... like I was finally strong enough to be like "nah, you know what? I am NOT apologizing for things I didn't do." (which is what the OLD me would've done with ANY guy when I saw a CLEAR wrongdoing in a situation on their part).
And man it felt good... . OBVIOUSLY not the best approach if I want to FIX things (which I'm obv still unsure about) but for once, I'm happy and proud of myself for actually not acting like a pathetic, whining, crybaby who will do anything to have my ubpdexbf's love and attention (including apologizing for things I wasn't in the wrong for, or having him manipulate a situation to make me into the bad person).
This is what I struggled with in this r/s... the idea that a "non" wouldn't do these things, so why shouldn't I apologize?
When , in fact, it's more-so coming to the acceptance of: no, a pwbpd WOULD do that, so how can I diffuse it and stop the escalation and try to see it from their pov?
It is a very hard thing to do though my friend... what made you officially end it with your woman?

[secretgirl]

“With this guy it's like I am STILL trying to live by the old "tough" me... but he's got me so f*ucked up emotionally because of the idealization phases, that I have a HARD time letting go and emotionally detaching... not sure what kind of neurochemistry this involves to make us so addicted... but I'm assuming it's as similar to when you take a drug (release of dopamine, yadda yadda.. withdrawals).  I'm stuck in this limbo of old me and the new me he's turned me into which I'm unhappy with. because I feel CONFUSED”

Secretgirl, you hit the nail on the head with this. This is exactly the way I feel. I have always been the one to walk when the bull shiz starts. Walk away and never look back. It’s been 2 months of NC with this girl and I have to fight myself each day to keep from texting her.

Ck, has she texted you during this time of NC from your end?

[once removed]

I was person with very strong boundaries. The one to always ditch... maybe this is why I'm even unsure of myself in this particular r/s.

ditching another person actually is not a sign of strong boundaries. its a sign of emotional reactivity. it seems like youre realizing this.

a member here once said that good boundaries are about having a relationship that is safe, and works. its not about cutting people out. lots of us have a toxic family relationship...a mother, a cousin, a father, a mother in law. we weather the storms because of strong family values.

i bring this up because its likely still a more significant point of conflict between the two of you than you might think.

I would say ALL but two of my exes did not have PD's (in my awareness). So when I dumped, I did not have the same emotional dysregulation I do with my ubpdexbf (the guy who I'm fighting with now).

this is fundamentally about how you deal with adversity.

everyone is a great driver in an empty parking lot.

youre dealing with stress now. youre responding to that stress in ways that break a relationship down. its testing you. the question is whether you can deal with it in a more constructive way, and to be clear, there are a lot of healthy ways to deal with it.

It was my LACK of boundaries that led me here... which is also why he's probably now shocked that I'm finally like... you know what? this is getting TOO MUCH and it UNACCEPTABLE and clearly, he doesn't like this (this is what I mean in my other post by the 3yrold reaction). This is also my OWN fault. If I am to move forward, I have to make CLEARER boundaries for myself and stick to them.

one of the primary issues my ex and i fought about was me looking at pornography.

in the beginning of the relationship, she said she was fine with it. inevitably, she saw my browser history and wasnt so fine with it anymore.

its a long story. the two of us tried to reconcile our differences over it, and we couldnt. it was a values difference. but it was also, for both of us, an issue of being right. values can be too rigid, and even destructive to a relationship. a healthy relationship isnt just about compatibility when it comes to values, its a matter of interdependent values...the values both of you share, as they apply to the relationship.

your partner is insecure over your being an exotic dancer. hes also inherently insecure. likewise, in this relationship, you have presented a certain amount of insecurity. the two of you are fighting over feeling security and reassurance in a relationship where you both feel insecure. the question is whether or not the two of you can resolve this in a constructive way. the answer, at least in part, lies in whether the two of you can get on the same page when it comes to your values and boundaries, and also the way each of you communicates insecurity in the relationship.

And he cried and agreed and promised to never abuse again...and the cycle starts again...

i think youre very right when it comes to carefully examining what this relationship will entail.

from our article on what it takes to be in these relationships:

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

It's hard when you get put down for five months every week at least twice, trying to respond kindly, then all of a sudden something inside you sparks "had enough of this sh*it" and you go into defense mode.

relationships (all of them) have phases. the first is the honeymoon phase. it varies for everyone (god knows my had more conflict than most even for a honeymoon). the second is the power struggle. in this phase, couples test each other. they try to teach the other how to love them, often in conflicting ways. success is a matter of whether the two can be aligned and on the same page. most relationships dont make it through this phase.

In that scenario , let's say I decide to be with him, should I post on here what I would like to reply BEFORE replying?

we can walk you through conflict in a constructive way. sharing as much as possible while its ongoing is always a good idea.

[secretgirl]

"ditching another person actually is not a sign of strong boundaries. its a sign of emotional reactivity. it seems like youre realizing this.

a member here once said that good boundaries are about having a relationship that is safe, and works. its not about cutting people out. lots of us have a toxic family relationship...a mother, a cousin, a father, a mother in law. we weather the storms because of strong family values.

i bring this up because its likely still a more significant point of conflict between the two of you than you might think."

100% I agree OR... and I think maybe that's why I'm even MORE frustrated at this moment because not only am I trying to grow out of my old bad habits... and learn to grow in a more productive and constructive manner, BUT the person I chose to "grow" with happens to be a pwbpd... like talk about complicated sh*it.


"this is fundamentally about how you deal with adversity.

everyone is a great driver in an empty parking lot.

youre dealing with stress now. youre responding to that stress in ways that break a relationship down. its testing you. the question is whether you can deal with it in a more constructive way, and to be clear, there are a lot of healthy ways to deal with it."

I agree and I would love to get to the point where literally nothing phases me but I'm not sure if in this time of growth for myself I am/will be able to. *sigh* Something I will have to decide.


"one of the primary issues my ex and i fought about was me looking at pornography.

in the beginning of the relationship, she said she was fine with it. inevitably, she saw my browser history and wasnt so fine with it anymore.

its a long story. the two of us tried to reconcile our differences over it, and we couldnt. it was a values difference. but it was also, for both of us, an issue of being right. values can be too rigid, and even destructive to a relationship. a healthy relationship isnt just about compatibility when it comes to values, its a matter of interdependent values...the values both of you share, as they apply to the relationship.

your partner is insecure over your being an exotic dancer. hes also inherently insecure. likewise, in this relationship, you have presented a certain amount of insecurity. the two of you are fighting over feeling security and reassurance in a relationship where you both feel insecure. the question is whether or not the two of you can resolve this in a constructive way. the answer, at least in part, lies in whether the two of you can get on the same page when it comes to your values and boundaries, and also the way each of you communicates insecurity in the relationship."

I agree... and to be honest, I'm OKAY with respecting certain things like me not working right now etc... I don't necessarily need the things he doesn't want me to do in a sense (besides pushing me away from my friends... I should've stuck a boundary in there 100%) but I think , as you said, it's how we both solve conflict in a constructive manner.




"Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship"




I agree.. I think this is becoming more and more clear to me now based off experience as opposed to pure logic (eg: READING the book on chemistry vs. hands on in a chem lab).


"relationships (all of them) have phases. the first is the honeymoon phase. it varies for everyone (god knows my had more conflict than most even for a honeymoon). the second is the power struggle. in this phase, couples test each other. they try to teach the other how to love them, often in conflicting ways. success is a matter of whether the two can be aligned and on the same page. most relationships dont make it through this phase."

even my honeymoond had more conflict than others...amen to that (and sometimes when I joke, please don't view this as a negative it's just my sarcastic humour at times trying to make light of a bad situ ).
I agree... that's probably why most of my other r/s's ended mutually... because we couldn't align to be on the same page. 


"we can walk you through conflict in a constructive way. sharing as much as possible while its ongoing is always a good idea."

thank you OR... I truly do appreciate your help... I'm STARTING to get a bit better at emotionally detaching and being more objective as time goes on... but I still have my weakness of defense mode (ughhhhhhh) this must be worked on if I were to continue this.

[ColdKnight]

Secretgirl to answer your questions:

“It is a very hard thing to do though my friend... what made you officially end it with your woman?“

We had a pretty good evening together but I could feel something was off. During that night she told me that she “needed me to need her”. I texted her after she left that morning and later that evening. She texted the next night and I responded then I asked her if she still wanted to go to a venue she mentioned when she was over. She didn’t respond till 2pm the next day “I don’t think so. I’m not feeling very wanted or that my presence is wanted. I know you are not doing it on purpose but it still hurts”

I called her that evening and I asked her if she needed space. She said she didn’t know so I asked what she wanted to do from here. She said she would text me tomorrow.

She face timed me the next night but I was at a baseball game and didn’t answer. I texted her the next afternoon and said that I saw she face-timed me but I was at the game” She responded with “Oh, thanks for the invite”

I was angry at the push pull she seemed to be doing so I kinda popped off with “don’t be a punk little girl” After a few days of no response I texted again and she ignored me. I called her that night, she picked up and said she was getting in the shower and asked if she could call me back. I said sure and she never did...

Two weeks later I texted her and said I missed her and asked if we could start talking again. She said “Sure, that’s cool”

The next day I texted her and explained that I had actually bought two tickets to the game with her I’m mind but when she didn’t want to go to the other venue I figured there was no reason to ask her to this especially since she wasn’t sure a bout us. I did not want to trigger engulfment. I also told her it seemed like we both got a little shaky when it came to doing regular, couple stuff (more her than me, I think I was kinda trying to protect myself when I said I was too)

She texted back “I never thought twice about doing regular couple things. That’s so mean. Good thing I met someone who isn’t ashamed of me” That was the last straw for me. I sent off a text calling her out on all her behavior over that past year. It was not a nice text, i said some pretty mean things that were designed to destroy any chance of her or I reaching out again. I needed to do it for me.

“CK, has she texted you durning you this time of NC from your end”

No she hasn’t but the day after I sent the destructive text she sent out a work email (we work at the same large company) inviting a group of people to a work event she was hosting for another employee. I was included on the email. There was really no reason for me to be invited. I am just an acquaintance of the other employee.  I did not respond. A week later, the day before the event, she sent out a reminder. Needless to say I did not go and have avoided work related events so as not to run into her.

It’s hard. I still miss her. I will run in to her eventually. It’s inevitable. We work out of different offices so I don’t see her everyday but it will happen I’m sure despite my efforts to avoid her...

Sorry to drag on so long...

[secretgirl]

Hey CK, no worries! glad you're replying.

hmmm so yes her attempt at wanting to be "needed" then not feeling it was some sort of test clearly to have you beg... was "don't be a punk little girl" a joke between you two? this prob could've set her off in her emotional state; however, she should've communicated that better.


The next day I texted her and explained that I had actually bought two tickets to the game with her I’m mind but when she didn’t want to go to the other venue I figured there was no reason to ask her to this especially since she wasn’t sure a bout us. I did not want to trigger engulfment. I also told her it seemed like we both got a little shaky when it came to doing regular, couple stuff (more her than me, I think I was kinda trying to protect myself when I said I was too)

She texted back “I never thought twice about doing regular couple things. That’s so mean. Good thing I met someone who isn’t ashamed of me” That was the last straw for me. I sent off a text calling her out on all her behavior over that past year. It was not a nice text, i said some pretty mean things that were designed to destroy any chance of her or I reaching out again. I needed to do it for me.



Yes... I'm def guilty for trying to make my ubpdexbf "want me" just as much as I want him... but, of course, they aren't capable of this non push-pull. So she clearly took offence to you saying you bought the tickets BUT didn't invite because you assumed...
In my experience with my ubpdexbf, NEVER ASSUME. just always gets us in trouble... Don't beat yourself up about saying mean things though... we are all human afterall, I said some things the last fight my ex and I had on Tuesday which I'm not proud of ... but that's something we can work on for ourselves but the other stuff THEY have to be willing to work on too. I kind of dared my ex near the end before he blocked me... I was like "well, if you don't trust me, then go find some other chicks and see how sh*itty they treat you in comparison to me. Maybe then you'll realize how absolutely amazing I was to you."
YEAAHHHH... prob NOT my best moment to be honest. I think that was prob the meanest thing I said in that entire discussion everything else I said was quite kind and just honest. But I was P*issed. I JADED. Not much I can do now...
I saw my T today and she told me that after an argument you should always ask yourself this question:
"What could have I handled better? Do I feel bad about any of it? Is any of it untrue?"

If the answer is yes, then we can learn and grow from that. If the answer is no, then don't let them push your boundary. For instance, I refused to "own up" to the "lies" he thought I was telling (which he obv made up in his head, and clearly was SO entrenched in it due to his own insecurities). But instead of JADE, I should've just kept it clear and concise. And told him that I refused to apologize for things I don't believe I did wrong, and if he doesn't believe me, then that's his choice. Should've left it at that. But noo... I had to be me and defend and say some rude sh*it at the end. Ugh. (gonna log the lesson learned from this behavior away for the future).
 

"No she hasn’t but the day after I sent the destructive text she sent out a work email (we work at the same large company) inviting a group of people to a work event she was hosting for another employee. I was included on the email. There was really no reason for me to be invited. I am just an acquaintance of the other employee.  I did not respond. A week later, the day before the event, she sent out a reminder. Needless to say I did not go and have avoided work related events so as not to run into her.

It’s hard. I still miss her. I will run in to her eventually. It’s inevitable. We work out of different offices so I don’t see her everyday but it will happen I’m sure despite my efforts to avoid her...

Sorry to drag on so long..."

Don't ever be sorry for typing on here... I don't care if you take up PAGES I'll still read it... just might take me a bit longer .
I can understand you miss her.. what is it about her you miss? Is it just the guilt you feel possibly for saying mean things? Sometimes I confused myself missing my ex for just feeling bad about my OWN actions.
Because this time around, besides the one thing I said near the end, I actually DON'T feel bad about anything else I said and am sticking to my beliefs. I am hurt. I am mad. I'm allowed to be. I know somewhat how to approach it if he does unblock me or message me... BUT I will not feel guilty for standing up for myself.

In terms of you going NC is it because she brought up another guy? Would you normally have messaged her after an argument? Who messaged who first generally?

[ColdKnight]

“hmmm so yes her attempt at wanting to be "needed" then not feeling it was some sort of test clearly to have you beg... was "don't be a punk little girl" a joke between you two? this prob could've set her off in her emotional state; however, she should've communicated that better”

When we had our first hiccup a year ago and resolved it she said she felt like she was always begging for my attention and that she was always texting me. I went back and looked at all the texts and it was about 50/50. Sometimes she would initiate and sometimes I would.

I’m not one to hound. If I text and they don’t respond I’ll let it go and maybe a few days later I might reinitiate but I believe it’s simple courtesy to answer a text back or be the next one to respond. Maybe I was too locked into that mindset. I think she is used to having men beg her which is something I never did.

When we talked about getting back together this time I told her If she didn’t want to then be honest with me and we can go our separate ways on good terms and I would not bother her or make life miserable for her. She said “I know, you just disappear”. Maybe she was giving me a hint that I needed to pay more attention to her but If I feel I am not wanted I wont beg, she’s right. I will just disappear.

I was trying to be playful and yet set boundaries when I told her “don’t be a punk little girl” I didn’t want to sound too angry but I wanted her to know I wasn’t going to cave in and feel bad for something that I felt was primarily driven by her past ambivalence. You are right I shouldn’t have assumed she wouldn’t have wanted to go but I didn’t want to get turned down again.

“I can understand you miss her..what about her is it you miss? Is it just the guilt you feel possibly for saying mean things?”

I do feel guilty for saying the mean things but there was a lot of truth in their that I needed to say and I felt she needed to hear. Like you I will not feel guilty for standing up for myself. I really miss the connection I felt we had. She’s the one girls I really felt I wanted to just “be with”. It could have been doing anything. I just really enjoyed her presence.

“In terms of you going NC is it because she brought up another guy? Would you normally have messaged her after an argument. Who messaged who first generally”

To be honest it wasn’t the other guy that was the real kicker. I am not a really jealous person. I don’t get crazy over things like that. I just walk away. I don’t know if she was just trying to make me jealous to see if I would beg her to come back or what. When we first started talking again in April I told her that I didn’t need to own her. I even told her she could see other men if she wanted but that I would see other women as well if that were the case. Unless we decided we were mutually exclusive.

 I always kept it pretty casual but she was the one who would drive it towards a relationship. Calling me “her guy” or “her man” and showing signs of jealousy. She would mention other things relationship related as well. That would naturally make me think she wanted an exclusive relationship so I would start to go down that path.

What really bothered me was the way she went about it. I just could not stand the silent treatment, stonewalling and refusal to communicate anymore. If she would had said something like “Hey, I just don’t think this is working out and Ive met someone that I am interested in and want to see where it goes.” I would have been so much more ok with that. I would have responded “Well I’m sorry to hear that. It’s not what I want. I hope it works out for you. If it doesn’t work out get ahold of me and If I’m still available maybe we can try again” but for her go silent for two weeks then out of the blue tell me she met someone. That’s unacceptable in my opinion.

Whenever we would get in a fight I would be the one to usually reach out and she would give me the silent treatment until she felt like talking. If we weren’t fighting our texts were pretty much 50/50. If she reached out I would respond if I reached out she would respond. Sometimes she would ghost me for a few days but I would usually let that go.

After our fist hiccup the first go around I told her that when she pulls away it makes me pull away farther. She said “why can’t you be the one to pull us closer together.” During a few conversations she seemed perplexed that I would not “text chase” for lack of a better term. Not her words but she asked why I wouldn’t text her all the time. I basically told her If you text me I’ll text you back but if you stop texting I’m not going to hound you. That seemed to bother/confuse her.

I honestly think she really enjoys the power she feels when guys are falling all over her and contacting her all the time...Once she feels like she has control then she pushes people away.

Another way too long post...ugh...

[secretgirl]

Don't worry Ck... I like the long posts there's more room to discuss

When we had our first hiccup a year ago and resolved it she said she felt like she was always begging for my attention and that she was always texting me. I went back and looked at all the texts and it was about 50/50. Sometimes she would initiate and sometimes I would.

I’m not one to hound. If I text and they don’t respond I’ll let it go and maybe a few days later I might reinitiate but I believe it’s simple courtesy to answer a text back or be the next one to respond. Maybe I was too locked into that mindset. I think she is used to having men beg her which is something I never did.

When we talked about getting back together this time I told her If she didn’t want to then be honest with me and we can go our separate ways on good terms and I would not bother her or make life miserable for her. She said “I know, you just disappear”. Maybe she was giving me a hint that I needed to pay more attention to her but If I feel I am not wanted I wont beg, she’s right. I will just disappear.

I'm the exact same as you in this situation... I don't like to hound but I find that they LIKE the begging etc.. so this is probably a boundary we have to create. The issue was I was inconsistent... like at the beginning begging alllll the time and crying (obv because at this point, I did not yet understand he has bpd... I kept wondering why he would leave me), then it went back and forth between me not begging and then me going back to begging or caving in to his silent treatments EVEN if I believed they weren't my fault... that's why I'm breaking that cycle now. If I truly don't believe the root of the argument was me, and he still decides to ignore/block me or whatever... I'm not engaging. Or going to beg. So good on you for sticking to that also...



I was trying to be playful and yet set boundaries when I told her “don’t be a punk little girl” I didn’t want to sound too angry but I wanted her to know I wasn’t going to cave in and feel bad for something that I felt was primarily driven by her past ambivalence. You are right I shouldn’t have assumed she wouldn’t have wanted to go but I didn’t want to get turned down again.

I totally get this... it's hard for us non's to sometimes refrain firing back out of our own anger... it's tough because my T tells me not to beat myself up too much because I have a right to my own feelings but the issue is that they're BPD... and the same language again, as a non, doesn't apply here. So my T said to me the other day: "what you'd normally be ABLE to say to a non, you most likely won't EVER be able to say/express to a upwbpd."
Touche. So it was MY bad that I even dared him to go find other girls. Ugh. still beat myself up about this a lot but my T told me that it's fine.. I know what to do for next time but my reaction obviously came from a place of being tired of constantly proving myself and my trust and STILL being accused. So after months of this, of course you get fed up and at some point, want to lash back. Doesn't make it excusable on my end either , especially if I want to learn how to communicate with a pwbpd, but, she told me not to be so hard on myself. I am only human, after all.


I do feel guilty for saying the mean things but there was a lot of truth in their that I needed to say and I felt she needed to hear. Like you I will not feel guilty for standing up for myself. I really miss the connection I felt we had. She’s the one girls I really felt I wanted to just “be with”. It could have been doing anything. I just really enjoyed her presence.


exactly... it's as I stated above... we can feel guilty for HOW we communicated it possibly...but not what we communicated. I am so in love with my ex also... so it saddens me every time we argue or he does this and pushes me away... but I've reached a point now where I don't NEED him anymore to be happy (I'm starting to not be so codependent). My T says to remember that we CHOOSE them and not NEED them.

To be honest it wasn’t the other guy that was the real kicker. I am not a really jealous person. I don’t get crazy over things like that. I just walk away. I don’t know if she was just trying to make me jealous to see if I would beg her to come back or what. When we first started talking again in April I told her that I didn’t need to own her. I even told her she could see other men if she wanted but that I would see other women as well if that were the case. Unless we decided we were mutually exclusive.

 I always kept it pretty casual but she was the one who would drive it towards a relationship. Calling me “her guy” or “her man” and showing signs of jealousy. She would mention other things relationship related as well. That would naturally make me think she wanted an exclusive relationship so I would start to go down that path.

What really bothered me was the way she went about it. I just could not stand the silent treatment, stonewalling and refusal to communicate anymore. If she would had said something like “Hey, I just don’t think this is working out and Ive met someone that I am interested in and want to see where it goes.” I would have been so much more ok with that. I would have responded “Well I’m sorry to hear that. It’s not what I want. I hope it works out for you. If it doesn’t work out get ahold of me and If I’m still available maybe we can try again” but for her go silent for two weeks then out of the blue tell me she met someone. That’s unacceptable in my opinion.

Whenever we would get in a fight I would be the one to usually reach out and she would give me the silent treatment until she felt like talking. If we weren’t fighting our texts were pretty much 50/50. If she reached out I would respond if I reached out she would respond. Sometimes she would ghost me for a few days but I would usually let that go.

After our fist hiccup the first go around I told her that when she pulls away it makes me pull away farther. She said “why can’t you be the one to pull us closer together.” During a few conversations she seemed perplexed that I would not “text chase” for lack of a better term. Not her words but she asked why I wouldn’t text her all the time. I basically told her If you text me I’ll text you back but if you stop texting I’m not going to hound you. That seemed to bother/confuse her.

I honestly think she really enjoys the power she feels when guys are falling all over her and contacting her all the time...Once she feels like she has control then she pushes people away.

Another way too long post...ugh...

I agree this is pretty bang on with my ex too... it's almost like they're the exact same people. I'm not usually the jealous type either because I figure, hey, if someone wants to cheat, they'll do it anyway so why bother worrying constantly or trying to CONTROL them... no point. Unless they give me a reason (which generally has to be OBVIOUS), I won't question. I'm quite trusting. Which is why I felt kind of stupid the ONE time I had mistrust... but of course when I brought up my feelings my ex met me with anger... but again total hypocrisy cause when they bring up their mistrust ALL the time, we have to be kind and patient? which is fine because I don't mind proving myself IF the communication is PROPER.

The issue is, they can't communicate well. It's almost like there's a disconnect.. so I totally get your frustrations because they're the exact same frustrations as mine... like instead of ST (which my ex did ALL the time, despite promising me he wouldn't)... why don't they BRING up what's bothering them? So we can discuss, and fix it?
I'm starting to realize though, again, that they're not non's... so you and I can think alike as much as we can but we won't ever think like them... the trick I think is to start twisting our minds around to think like them... that's why I like to discuss with my T, in detail, what happens during a fight and what was said on both parts so she can analyze and give me her professional opinion.
She's dealt with a lot of pwbpd so she knows what they think/feel that's underlying to their reactions... so her insight alone helps me start to unravel what my ex is thinking/feeling when I say certain things... or what he "means" when he projects or rages... it's tough though. Trust me... like f*uck. sometimes I wanna lash back and be like "wtf is wrong with you?" I have to control my anger A LOT with him and generally I'm not an angry person at all, quite the opposite in fact, it's just that he tests my patience so much with these accusations etc. So it frustrates me when there's no control on his part. But again, he's not a non. And so isn't your ex.

We are also more self-aware of our feelings and they're not. Hence the disconnect of communication styles. So I think the "what would a 3yrold do?" Is a good start to figuring out their minds... and also just having more patience and being more objective might help us in the future... like instead of taking things personally so we react... we have to remind ourselves like "it's not me... it's them... what is going on in their mind to make them think XYZ."

[ColdKnight]

“I'm the exact same as you in this situation... I don't like to hound but I find that they LIKE the begging etc.. so this is probably a boundary we have to create. The issue was I was inconsistent... like at the beginning begging alllll the time and crying (obv because at this point, I did not yet understand he has bpd... I kept wondering why he would leave me), then it went back and forth between me not begging and then me going back to begging or caving in to his silent treatments EVEN if I believed they weren't my fault... that's why I'm breaking that cycle now. If I truly don't believe the root of the argument was me, and he still decides to ignore/block me or whatever... I'm not engaging. Or going to beg. So good on you for sticking to that also...”

Yes I believe they probably do like the begging. It’s just not in my nature and very hard for me to do. I also believe that although they want it, it is not what they NEED. I think they NEED someone with strength and boundaries because they don’t have that themselves. That is just my belief. I could be way off. Does that make sense?

“So my T said to me the other day “what you’d normally be able to say to ABLE to say to a non, you most likely won’t EVER be able to say/express to a upwbpd”

Yes, this seems to be the case which makes normal communication just so hard. The whole walking on eggshells part of it. When I first got back together with he I had done a lot of reading on BPD and I tried really hard not to JADE and tried to validate her but it came to a point where I felt I was losing my self respect and I lashed out a couple of times. Not good.
She did apologize a few times for ST but would do it again.

I really wanted to make it work this last go around but I just wasn’t strong enough to control my emotions which is rare for me. This girl just seemed to bring out the best and worst in me.

And I just realized I hijacked your post and made it all about me...maybe I’m the one with BPD  

Listening to Genesis, That’s all. If that’s not a song about loving someone with BPD i don’t know what is...

[secretgirl]

Hey CK! Nice to hear from you again
It's not in my nature either UNLESS I've genuinely felt I made a mistake... I generally always try and find ANY kernel of truth to apologize for (especially being a codependent) but you gt to a point where you look at a certain situation and it's like... "why would I apologize for that?"
I believe you are right... they need strong people. We know this inside of us yet... but doesn't mean we have to be unsympathetic I guess because, afterall, their illness is a "special case." The boundaries will always be tested with them. 

Yes my ex also apologized for ST while he was idealizing me again... BUT he also promised me he would never ST again... and we would work through any argument, no matter what it was about to at least give it a shot... yet here I am again, given the ST and BLOCKED for that matter. So I guess we have to take their words with a grain of salt. Actions always speak louder I suppose. I would never make a promise like that without the intent to keep it or at least TRY to. Even after my ex's random accusations, I kept trying to talk with him... it was only when he kept forcing me to own up to my lies that I eventually lost it. How can we talk to someone in this state of anger? We can't. Bes tthing to do I guess is give them their space but stand our ground. So good for you as well!
Whether or not both of our ex's return, we won't know I suppose but we have determined OUR boundaries/limits. Which is important

They do have a way with bringing out our worst... this is something we can work on for any future r/s. Whether it be with a pwbpd or a non. Maybe not reacting to words as much and just watching actions. In other words (haha pun not intended), words shouldn't hold as much power over us as they have with them. Thoughts?

[Anakin]

Well words can hurt more than actions IMO.  They can catch you off guard which in turn causes you to reply with some words of your own.  Where as action I believe fight or flight comes in if that makes sense to you me putting it that way.  People are going to fight in relationships.  You have to fight to see if you can bounce back from it and make the relationship stronger again IMO.  Now a days thank you social media people will say the hell with this more than saying let’s work this out.  Kinda like the old saying with how did you make it to 50 years.  When something was broke we didn’t throw it out we fixed it. 

[secretgirl]

Well words can hurt more than actions IMO.  They can catch you off guard which in turn causes you to reply with some words of your own.  Where as action I believe fight or flight comes in if that makes sense to you me putting it that way.  People are going to fight in relationships.  You have to fight to see if you can bounce back from it and make the relationship stronger again IMO.  Now a days thank you social media people will say the hell with this more than saying let’s work this out.  Kinda like the old saying with how did you make it to 50 years.  When something was broke we didn’t throw it out we fixed it. 

100% agree Anakin... that's why to me, I'm used to having a minor argument and you fix it ASAP. which is why the ST thing is new to me.. it drives me nuts my T told me it's a form of emotional abuse (which clearly I wasn't aware of). Even my NPD ex wasn't like this.. he might ignore me a day but he would always harrrssshhh suck up to get me back into his good graces sooner than later. way more desperate than my ubpdexbf.
I sent my ex a text today which I noticed I'm still blocked
I told him I was sorry about the r/s ended and that I had wished him a happy holiday. No reply. Ironic for someone to tell me that they never block people yet here he is, blocking me. haha
I guess it teaches us to maybe not take their words at face value. I'm sad but not so much anymore at him... more at myself I think for not realizing it earlier and being able to let go of my own emotions earlier on. I wish I was tougher you know? So that when faced with this, It wouldn't be as hard.

[Anakin]

Oh your ex said they’d never block you too?  Mine as well idk if I’m blocked I’ll find out in a week or two.  Yes I wish I was stronger too like you said.  To see the red flags which we all see and say nope not for me.  Or to just be able to move on and say it’s your loss not mine cause I know I’m a good person.  I realize people are flawed so I give the benefit of the doubt way to often.  I know I need to work on that. 

[secretgirl]

Oh your ex said they’d never block you too?  Mine as well idk if I’m blocked I’ll find out in a week or two.  Yes I wish I was stronger too like you said.  To see the red flags which we all see and say nope not for me.  Or to just be able to move on and say it’s your loss not mine cause I know I’m a good person.  I realize people are flawed so I give the benefit of the doubt way to often.  I know I need to work on that. 

I'm the same.. I think one important thing my T told me was to watch for the boundary's being tested early on... usually this is a sign of someone with BPD/NPD. And then, not to say they aren't beautiful people at times, at least we are aware though of what might come and how to better handle it.