The closer they get the harder they split, is it true.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello All,
Just something I tried to explain to my attorney today.  I have read everywhere that the closer you get to someone with BPD the further they push you away so I have a couple of questions if people can add to the topic so my attorney can understand this better.

1.  What exactly does closer they get mean?
Answers:
Getting married
Moving in together
Having a baby

2.  If anyone has experience splitting immediately after you got married or moved in together could you explain your story.  I was never married nor did we permanently move in with each other so I can't relate, the only thing was pregnancy entrapment.

[Newyoungfather]

Hello All,
Just something I tried to explain to my attorney today.  I have read everywhere that the closer you get to someone with BPD the further they push you away so I have a couple of questions if people can add to the topic so my attorney can understand this better.

1.  What exactly does closer they get mean?
Answers:
Getting married
Moving in together
Having a baby

2.  If anyone has experience splitting immediately after you got married or moved in together could you explain your story.  I was never married nor did we permanently move in with each other so I can't relate, the only thing was pregnancy entrapment.

[Turkish]

You might want to delve into Dr. Craig Childress.

www.drcachildress.org/

I follow his Facebook (he hasn't updated in a while), and he lays out very succinct summaries of the pathologies of BPD and NPD, especially given shared kids.

[ForeverDad]

It can get a little complicated, more complicated than your simple question, since each person is different and can exhibit different triggers and levels of reactions.

Borderline has been described as a disorder that is more evident the closer the partners are.  It can become more and more difficult as the disordered person virtually stops listening since the emotional baggage of the troubled relationship seems to block real communication.  That's why most advice is that you can't fix or help the pwBPD in your life.  (If you could have, wouldn't they have improved after all these years?)  That's why they say it takes a trained professional — who stays emotionally distanced/neutral — to handle therapy.  That leaves you with being tasked to build strong boundaries to limit the impact on your life and the others you love.

Another point I like to make is that a closer relationship — whether it is marriage or the arrival of shared children or joint ownership of assets or debts, etc — creates obligations perceived differently by each person.  A normal person would see the positive aspects.  A pwBPD, depending on the person's particular personality, would see a way to let emotions loose in private, a way to control, dominate, threaten, cajole, guilt, manipulate, demand ultimatums, etc.

Sadly, us Nice Guys and Nice Gals often attempt to accommodate by appeasing or acquiescing, shortchanging ourselves and the children.  It may work for a while but never works for very long.

[MeandThee29]

I have read everywhere that the closer you get to someone with BPD the further they push you away so I have a couple of questions if people can add to the topic so my attorney can understand this better.

Of course every situation is different, but my lawyer observed that those with disordered thinking are still going to engage in the push/pull even if all contact is going through the partner's lawyer. Getting at you through the process is still a connection to you, as strange as that sounds. Then their feelings of abandonment rage because they really can't get at you other than through the legal system. Facing the end of a close relationship puts them in a spiral that just feeds the fire even more.

As horrible as it is for us, our situations are very different. I've deeply grieved what was, but the divorce process has just confirmed that the relationship is over and that I must move on. I just wish it would settle soon.

[worriedStepmom]

I'm not sure that it's relevant that the lawyer understands that nuance.

It's more important that he understands
1)  she wants to be perceived as ...(good mother?  nice person?)
but

2) she isn't able to regulate her emotions consistently, which means
a) she lashes out
b) she may agree to something one day and change her mind the next
c) she has trouble following through with agreements/plans
d) she may have trouble interpreting agreements

and that makes her feel bad about herself (because it shows that she isn't a good mother/good person/whatever), so
3) she rewrites reality to make herself the victim - which means
a) someone else (you) must be the aggressor
b) she does not acknowledge her own negative actions ("forgets")
c) she twists any statements to fit her negative self-talk

she doesn't see anything wrong with this because
3) she has very little empathy, which means
a) she cannot see how her actions negatively impact her child (or you)
b) she will say and do things deliberately to hurt you because she feels bad, and she wants you to feel just as bad
c) this my mean she accuses you of things that are false

[Not all of this may fit your ex; it fits my SD12's mom]

[kells76]

Hi NYF, good to hear from you.

You've probably already checked out some of Dr. Childress' stuff, but here's a link to his page on "Parental Alienation" documents: www.drcachildress.org/asp/Site/ParentalAlienation/index.asp

I can't remember exactly which one(s) it is, but I think there's a couple that do a basic description of the dysfunctional family structure, intended for professionals (like perhaps attorneys). If you have time, click through a bunch and see if there is some verbiage that you could share with your L to shed more light on what your son's mom is up to.

I'm with WSM; I think it's less important that your L understand push/pull, and more important that there's a really obvious "map" (with big red arrows and huge stars!) that connects "how Mom thinks" to both "what Mom will try to do in a legal setting" and "IMPACT ON SON". Kind of like how WSM laid it out.

And like FD said, it's complicated, but we're all generally on the same page that a lot of the dysfunctional behaviors are more evident as you get more emotionally close to a pwBPD. That could actually tie in to WSM's idea: "Because my son's mom desires to be seen as a wonderful, warm, supportive mother, she tries really hard to convey that image and, actually, the image is pretty successful from afar". Or something like that. But tie that "desire for image" in to the specifics that she then does: "So, sadly, she seems to be willing to sacrifice our son's relationship with me to her goal; in emails X, Y, and Z she denigrates my parenting ability and says our son doesn't want to be with me, only with her".

Just some food for thought. Keep that focus on how your son's mom's actions impact his healthy development, with maybe a side trail of how her actions will show up in a legal conflict.

[MeandThee29]

I agree that you cannot expect a lawyer to understand this like a therapist. However, the hope of course is that they can see their way through the contention and chaos to get it settled legally. You need someone who is flexible and can navigate through the mess in a calm manner.

I've had to hold my lawyer back sometimes, knowing that there were certain parts in the agreement that don't make sense but need to stay in there for my STBX to keep it moving. My lawyer is passionate about what he does and thankfully listens to and respects my wishes. You can't completely go for a win here without derailing the whole thing.

[Quicksylver]

Of course every situation is different, but my lawyer observed that those with disordered thinking are still going to engage in the push/pull even if all contact is going through the partner's lawyer. Getting at you through the process is still a connection to you, as strange as that sounds. Then their feelings of abandonment rage because they really can't get at you other than through the legal system. Facing the end of a close relationship puts them in a spiral that just feeds the fire even more.

THIS. 500% This.

I wouldn't expect your lawyer to really understand BPD. Honestly in my experience, lawyers tend to hear "my ex is crazy" more often than not -so they tend to glaze over the nuances.

Assuming you have a shark whose preparing to battle this out with you (it's a marathon not a sprint), the number 1 priority to explain to your lawyer is you want every boundary in the book. Every. Single. One. That's what your ex will be pushing more than the typical crazy ex. And to a relentless amount. If I could go back in time and convey this point to myself starting out -believe me I would.

This means you will want specific, iron-clad, detailed rules about communication (what she is allowed to text you about vs, what she should divert to email, how often she is allowed to call your child during your parenting time, etc.), rules about the locations and times of pick ups and exchanges of your kid (I recommend having her pick up your kid at the beginning of her time rather than being in charge of the drop off -that turned out to be a major trigger for my BPD), rules about alternating holidays, scheduling vacations, etc.

If nothing else, I'd tell your lawyer to avoid any "standard" language or clauses in your parenting plans. This was where we got into trouble because our lawyer assumed we were okay with BPD volunteering at my daughter's school as much as she wanted / with her showing up to every sports practice if she wanted / etc. While an average parent would naturally regulate this kind of thing, in my experience a BPD will relentlessly push every single boundary until she finds a loop hole she can use to her advantage. The more clear cut and detailed you can be in the original paperwork, the better off you'll be.

One thing that really helped my lawyer was keeping thorough documentation. Our BPD was compulsively lying about anything and everything. We were (and still are actually) keeping every text, every email and documenting every interaction. We were also tracking our daughter's challenging behaviors which we were able to clearly link back to the BPD's actions. This was what won our case. Our BPD was disproven again and again to the point that we were able to get exactly what we were asking for.

**I'd also recommend going for full custody and the majority parenting time if you can swing it. The risk of emotional, verbal and physical abuse to the child over time really seems to be extraordinarily high when the BPD has the majority of the parenting time and custody control. I hate to generalize like that but that's definitely been my experience and seems to be happening a lot from what I read in here.

[livednlearned]

Just something I tried to explain to my attorney today.  I have read everywhere that the closer you get to someone with BPD the further they push you away

I would be cautious about spending your money to explain splitting to your lawyer ...

[Newyoungfather]

Hello Everyone,
Thanks for your responses, to clarify about explaining to my attorney.  I am involved in another civil dispute outside of family law involving exubpd.  My attorney became a good friend/acquaintance, we tend to have dinner meetings "off the clock" and I explain a lot of details about the disorder.  My L doesn't charge me anything and is very interested in the whole high personality disorders as he does not practice family law.

[kells76]

Can't remember if it's been mentioned, but I believe Bill Eddy (author of "Splitting") is or was a lawyer.

*just checked highconflictinstitute.com, and he is both LCSW and Esq. How about that!*

Both "Splitting" and the High Conflict Institute website could be great resources for your L friend -- reading a lawyer who is also a therapist describing high conflict personalities with legal implications in mind.

Hope it helps!