Basic question about handling crazy

[MidLifCrysis1]

So, a simple scenario that has no simple answer. Looking for insight. All thoughts welcome.

Let's say that your pwBPD informs you that you are "bad" because (in the past, let's say 6 months ago) you two spoke and you agreed that you would do a thing, but you have not done it once. Let's say, the thing is that you would give your partner a massage from time to time. Now, after a significant amount of time with absolutely no investment by you, they are bringing this argument to you.
They are right to feel bitter and disappointed and unsupported. In fact, pwBPD stopped making pro massage appointments for him/herself because you said you would do this - but you didn't, so basically, you suck.

Now, if what really happened was more like:
You offered numerous times to give pwBPD a massage and were told 100% of the times, "No."
In fact, you were told to stop offering because it is upsetting/annoying/whatever.
So, you mostly stopped, but occasionally  still offered, but of course were stilled told "No."

Also, during this time, you continually were urging pwBPD to make pro massage appointments.
You even offered to make the appointments yourself.
But, again, you were told, "No. Do not do this."
And again, you were told to stop suggesting because it is upsetting/annoying/whatever.
So clearly, my point here is to inquire as to what to do in such a situation.
Of course, we all know that pwBPD bring about such scenarios via various traits.
But without validating the invalid or JADEing or trying to point out how 100% backwardly incorrect pwBPD is in the situation (all of which, we know, would be catastrophic), what does one do?

I know many of you have experienced this.
I know it probably doesn't end well.
But looking for any insight that can help address the situation.

And if all of that was too complex, here's a "simpler" one:
pwBPD: "Everything you just said is wrong."
You: "You're saying, 'Everything I've said is incorrect?'"
pwBPD: "Yes." [no real pause or change] "NOT everything you just said is wrong."
You: "Just so I'm clear, now you're saying that, 'NOT everything I've just said is incorrect?' Are you changing your position?"
pwBPD: "Yes, that's what I said; but no I'm not changing my position."
You: "I'm sorry, but I don't think I understand. Can you explain to me how everything I just said can be wrong, while at the same time, not everything I just said is wrong?"
pwBPD: "You're not listening."
You: "Well, I think I am. You first said that everything I said was wrong; then you said that not everything I said was wrong."
pwBPD: "Yes I did."
You: "And, so I am asking how those two statements, which are literally opposites, can both apply at the same time."
pwBPD: "You're still not listening."
You: :-/
 
Please...please... me.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[Ozzie101]

Those are tough ones and hard to know how to handle. Talking the BPD language can be so frustrating, can't it? Ugh.

In a situation like the massage, what would happen (or would have happened -- it might be too far down the road for this now) if you were to say to her, "I know I agreed to give you massages. But it seems like when I offer, it's never the right time for you. So, I think I'll leave it up to you to let me know when you'd like to have one. I won't ask anymore." Said in a nice, loving, empathetic way. But it puts the ball in her court and takes her at her word. Leave the pro massage question alone. It's her massage. Her problem to solve. How would that go over, do you think?

If she pulls the "you suck because you didn't do this" on you, have you tried SET (Support Empathy Truth)? Something like "I want to help you with this. I'm sure you feel unsupported since I haven't given you the massages we talked about. I offered many times but you told me to stop asking, so I did. If you want one, all you have to do is say the word."

Not saying that will work, just wondering if you'd tried it?

As for the conversation that was in a circle, sometimes, I've found, the best thing to do is end the conversation. I usually say something like "Huh. Well, I can see this means a lot to you, but I think we're not really understanding each other. I'd like to take a break to think through what you've said." Again, that doesn't always work. Sometimes it just makes my H more angry or frustrated. But sometimes it gives him the time to come back to baseline where he starts making sense again.

[MidLifCrysis1]

Thanks for the reply, Oz. 

But, yeah, all that stuff's a no-go.

If I contradict her version in any way, then I am the crazy one who remembers things wrong.
Also, disengaging doesn't work either, as I am then "running away" and "avoiding" and when/if it is attempted, she simply rewrites the memory from before as needed and is more angry at me.

As for putting the ball in her court, I did. In between asking her, I included the just let me know then option.
Even concluded with that when told not to offer anymore.

I think I need to move to the Ending-a-Relationship forum now.

[Stillhopeful4]

And if all of that was too complex, here's a "simpler" one:
pwBPD: "Everything you just said is wrong."
You: "You're saying, 'Everything I've said is incorrect?'"
pwBPD: "Yes." [no real pause or change] "NOT everything you just said is wrong."
You: "Just so I'm clear, now you're saying that, 'NOT everything I've just said is incorrect?' Are you changing your position?"
pwBPD: "Yes, that's what I said; but no I'm not changing my position."
You: "I'm sorry, but I don't think I understand. Can you explain to me how everything I just said can be wrong, while at the same time, not everything I just said is wrong?"
pwBPD: "You're not listening."
You: "Well, I think I am. You first said that everything I said was wrong; then you said that not everything I said was wrong."
pwBPD: "Yes I did."
You: "And, so I am asking how those two statements, which are literally opposites, can both apply at the same time."
pwBPD: "You're still not listening."
You: :-/
 

I have no advice to offer.  I can just tell you I have had this, almost exact, circular conversation MANY times with my uBPDw.

[Ozzie101]

I think I need to move to the Ending-a-Relationship forum now.

A big thing is deciding what you really and truly want to do. We can't tell you what to do as that's entirely up to you. But we can walk with you through it and help you come to that decision and then, once it's made, we can help you navigate what comes next. But the support we give and the answers we give are entirely dependent on what you want to happen.

Do you want your relationship to work and continue? The answer to that question is a loaded one and it's one that should be made with a lot of very careful thought.

You're in a very tough place and I'm so sorry. I was there myself last year and I know how painful and scary it can be.

[Forgiveness]

What I would do is do not address the accusation. Instead, I would say, "OK, what would you like, right now? Massage or no massage?"

And if she kept bringing up the past, I would keep to my question, "OK, what would you like right now?"

And if she yelled I would walk away.

I don't know if this is the right answer but it's what I would do. It's similar to how I would talk to a toddler throwing a tantrum.

[Skip]

Thanks for the reply, Oz.  
I think I need to move to the Ending-a-Relationship forum now.

Was you OP question rhetorical?  

People can be irrational and/or unfair when they are upset. We all can do this. pwBPD can do it "on steroids."

Emotions can be impulsive (and passing). We all can do this. pwBPD can do it "on steroids."

Ozzie gives good advice. Forgiveness does also.

There is also worth noting that feelings are often transient and knowing that, getting past the moment is often helpful. Issues may self resolve. Or you may revisit them at a better time.

[MidLifCrysis1]

No, it was most definitely not rhetorical.

I am aware of how "normal" people can function under stress.
And I am also aware of how pwBPD can function under stress.

My problems are not transient or infrequent.

The originally posted question is an example (2 in fact) of situations that I find myself in at the drop of a hat (or sometimes not even that) all the time now. And they almost never self-resolve. They mound up into the already gargantuan, steaming pile of foul bitterness and resentment that my pwBPD lives beneath.

That was why I was asking for insight on how to handle things.
And that is why I closed with I think I need to move to the Ending-a-Relationship forum now. - since I feel we are gaining no ground, and only losing it continually. Everything I try is filtered and/or rewritten by my wife in some harmful way, rather than whatever it actually was. And her ability to define anything I may say or do as defensive or hostile is almost infinite.

However, having been with my wife since we were both 17 years old (now 43), it is very difficult to envision life on Earth without her next to me.

Forgiveness: Thanks for your answer. Although, neither really helps, but I appreciate you sharing some approaches.

[Skip]

Breathe. 

'LifCrysis,

You can go to the Detaching Board if you like. You may want to give the Bettering Board a run first and give it some time. The choice, of course, is yours and we will work with you either way. 

The relationship you have with your wife has been built over 26 years, one conversation (transaction) at a time. And yes, people with BPD traits (at any level) are not great at resolving things. Issues can fester for years.

But you are also part of this 26 year process of transactions and you have likely become increasingly intransigent. Intransigent is you views of her. Intransigent is your views of the situation.

You first post and your response feel pretty wired. I say that to help, not to antagonize.

All these transactions have two parts - yours and hers. And for many years, the issues of prior failed transactions were incorporated in new transactions. Triggering, to use a term. You do something she doesn't like and immediately she pulls forward all the things she hasn't liked and immersed in it. You likely do the same at some level.

To work things, something has to happen to shift the direction of  the transactions (discussions). And it takes a time to unravel 26 years. And BPD traits will slow that process.

So, have you read:
Is Your Relationship Breaking Down?
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

What stage would you say you are in? How about your wife?

[MidLifCrysis1]

Sorry to sound hostile.

I am in bad shape.

I know all of that and have been on here for some time.
Already read that article. Currently at about 3.5

She packed a bag and left this afternoon after a colorful display.

Today's absurdity is because I tried to verify something she said to me last night, rather than instantaneously leap to my feet to wordlessly comply.

None of the tactics and such that I have learned thusfar are making any positive difference - they've been lessening the monstrous interactions, but aren't affecting any positive change.

Of course I know that there's 26 years of triggerable crap bubbling underneath?
I've come SO far in understanding over the past several months since reading SWOE.
And I'm sure treating my wife like a rational, functional person for the 25 years (cause why would I have known any different) prior has caused huge psychic scars that I never had a clue about.

Also been with a therapist. She tells me I have "amazing endurance" and that I'm handling things "as well as anybody could" but again, no positive change...only downhill slide.

We can't address ANYTHING because she goes full-blown Borderland as soon as anything happens and can no longer interact constructively.

I apologize for rambling. I'm sitting alone in my house - too upset to work - having no one to confer with and pretty much lost all hope.

Thank you to any/all of you that participate in this board in any way.
It is an act of kindness.

MLC

[Ozzie101]

I'm sorry, MLC. It definitely sounds like you're in a difficult place and that's certainly understandable.

I was fortunate (I guess) in that our relationship was only about 3 years old when I stumbled across BPD and started learning about my H's behaviors and my own communication styles. And learned that I was doing a lot of things wrong.

To feel constantly stymied at every turn, no matter what you try, is horribly frustrating. I've been there.

And there's no reason to apologize -- especially not for rambling. (You should see some of the Tolstoy novels I've written here.)

You're familiar with the tools and with how BPD works. You say they're lessening the intensity of the interactions -- which is a step in the right direction -- but otherwise are not bringing about change. As Skip said, your relationship and patterns have built up over 26 years. It will take a lot of time, effort and patience for real change to come about, if it does happen. The question is, do you want to keep trying and do you have it in you? That's a question to think about. Not to answer right away.

[MidLifCrysis1]

Funny you should refer to Tolstoy novels. I am actually a decedent of Tolstoy. Tolstoy is literally my middle name.

I have no idea what the hell I'm gonna do. But thanks for the support.

[once removed]

i definitely agree that all of this is a bigger picture thing than any particular conversation/incident. the two of you have a style of relating, built up over many years. it will take effort over time to shift it to a healthier trajectory (if possible). and we all have to start somewhere.

pwBPD: "Everything you just said is wrong."
You: "You're saying, 'Everything I've said is incorrect?'"
pwBPD: "Yes." [no real pause or change] "NOT everything you just said is wrong."
You: "Just so I'm clear, now you're saying that, 'NOT everything I've just said is incorrect?' Are you changing your position?"
pwBPD: "Yes, that's what I said; but no I'm not changing my position."
You: "I'm sorry, but I don't think I understand. Can you explain to me how everything I just said can be wrong, while at the same time, not everything I just said is wrong?"
pwBPD: "You're not listening."
You: "Well, I think I am. You first said that everything I said was wrong; then you said that not everything I said was wrong."
pwBPD: "Yes I did."
You: "And, so I am asking how those two statements, which are literally opposites, can both apply at the same time."
pwBPD: "You're still not listening."
You: :-/

this is a circular argument.

when someone makes a statement like "everything you just said is wrong", im not sure its constructive to quibble about the degree to which everything was wrong, the word choice.

it sounds like you are deftly trying to catch her in something, to make her see her absurdity. more than likely, she can feel this and it would only frustrate her. ive mentioned this before MLC: its JADE city. it isnt listening.

its a merry go round that leaves both of you exasperated, unheard, and the conflict unresolved. and that builds up (has built up) over time.

if i were to suggest where there was room for improvement, id want to know: what was the argument about? what did you say that she said was wrong?

[Wrongturn1]

Hang in there, MidLifCrysis1...I can relate as we have a lot in common.  I'm also 43 and have been with my uBPDw since I was 18.  Many long years.  I had a similar situation play out some time ago:  uBPDw asked me to keep my phone on me at all times so she could reach me whenever she "needed" to; I complied and started carrying my phone in my pocket, you know, the way basically all people do; then she started accusing me of having an affair because I was "hiding my phone" by keeping it with me and in my pocket instead of leaving it on the counter like I usually did before.  It was crazytown.  

These days, her pet issue is my driving, which she claims is terrifying and extremely dangerous for our family and the public at large...which seems highly implausible to me since I have never been in a car accident and never received a speeding ticket.  She's grasping at straws now as she can't find anything to criticize in my attitude or actions otherwise.

As for me, I'm sticking it out with my uBPDw for at least the next 6 years.  After our youngest goes off to college, my tolerance for all this will drastically decrease, and I'm not sure what will happen then.  Do you have any kids at home?  Either way, I'd suggest firming up your boundaries around leaving when ridiculous behavior happens - she doesn't have a right to decide when you remove yourself from a situation and when you don't.

[MidLifCrysis1]

WrongTurn, you sound like we could swap for a while and no one would really notice - except maybe your teen/tween, but then again, sometimes they don't notice such things either...

My wife also is hypersensitive about my driving. And in inconsistent ways. Heckles me often about it.
Trip X: "Slow down. Where's the fire?" "Why are you racing and jumping from lane to lane?"
Trip Y: "I would pass this guy? Why are you just sitting here?" "You don't have to drive like you're 100 years old..."
Sometimes she's holding on for dear life, hiding inside herself, and sobbing. Sometimes she's fine. Mostly same driving conditions. And, of course, it's always my fault - cause her experience is what matters. She drives more racey than I do sometimes, but claims she doesn't.

There are SO many examples. It's SO hard to even keep track of all the alternate-reality situations. I forget some sometimes and don't even know what to say..."Oh yeah, sorry. I forgot that I shouldn't open a door for you...but only sometimes..." 

I've never heard of a more aptly titled book than "Stop Walking on Eggshells" - that's why I read it. Didn't even know about BPD or that it was about BPD until it's described in the intro or whatever. The title just sounded like something I ought to read. I'd suggest it, if you haven't already read it.
---
My two daughters have been off to college for just over two months now. So I am exactly in the phase you are referring to, I suppose. Although, the real (consistent and major, as opposed to minor and occasional) craziness has only been going on with my situation for about 3 years. It was much more manageable before that, except on occasion. I wish you much luck and strength. If you want to bounce anything off of me regarding parenting with this kind of home life, feel free.
OnceRemoved:
I wasn't trying to quibble about the degree to which everything was wrong or the word choice. I was attempting to comply with what she asks me to do all the time, "If you don't understand, ask me" - and since I could not understand that, I asked. Again, stupid me. I delivered it in the most "I am trying hard to catch what you are throwing, but need a little help" manner, but that didn't matter either. I still am arguing, defending, fighting, not listening, etc.

Honestly, I can't even recall what the "everything" covered. Now that I think about it, that was part of my question at the time, so I would know, at least, categorically, where her head was. She doesn't do well staying on target with context or topics. Ultimately, it doesn't even matter much at this point. She reacts that way about virtually everything that registers a flutter on her "Something is not fine" meter. And, me trying to get a comprehensible description out of her about what is suddenly not fine is usually enough for her to consider me arguing, defending, fighting, not listening, etc.

She's majorly dysregulating now over anything - sometimes nothing (aka her own thoughts). And I am supposed to be addressing her major overreactive feelings about said thing usually by "humbly owning/taking responsibility for my offense/failure and compassionately and empathetically apologizing for it" - before I even understand what she's even talking about, nevermind that I am rarely actually at fault.

The constant onslaught on this, along with the enormous, ironic, and constant projection, wherein she denigrates me and tells me all kinds of things that I need to do to "wake up" and get straightened out - every word of which are exactly the things she needs to do, not me; including to go get therapy since it seems clear that something is majorly wrong with me and my behaviors/choices not matching my words. 

[Wrongturn1]

Haha, right - we could probably swap lives without anyone else noticing!

the real (consistent and major, as opposed to minor and occasional) craziness has only been going on with my situation for about 3 years. It was much more manageable before that, except on occasion.

My uBPDw has been off the rails for the past 2 decades; I learned about BPD 8 years ago; and I'm still trying to learn productive strategies for dealing with it.  So I'm saying it's a marathon; however, my life is much better now than it was 8 years ago, so improvements are possible if you make the changes that you have the ability to make.  Learning validation and boundaries helped me more than anything else.  Speaking of validation, check out the book "When Hope is Not Enough" by Bon Dobbs - it includes lots of example scripts showing how to apply validation in various situations.  (The SWOE book is great of course, and that was the first one I read when I was getting started.)

Was there any particular event that set off your wife 3 years ago and led to the current extra-dysfunctional period?

[Wrongturn1]

In addition to my post above, I wanted to add:  Congrats on getting your daughters off to college!  A couple of related questions:

1)  How did the dynamic between you and your wife change once the children were out of the house?

2)  Do your daughters display traits of BPD?  If not, was there anything specific you did in your parenting that protected them from becoming BPD?

[Skip]

I wasn't trying to quibble about the degree to which everything was wrong or the word choice. I was attempting to comply with what she asks me to do all the time, "If you don't understand, ask me" - and since I could not understand that, I asked. Again, stupid me. I delivered it in the most "I am trying hard to catch what you are throwing, but need a little help" manner, but that didn't matter either. I still am arguing, defending, fighting, not listening, etc.

I think what Once Removed is trying to point out that you are operating is Gottman's stage 4. Wrongturn, you sound like you are there too. According to studies, there is close to a 90% chance you are headed for divorce. A marriage cannot survive in stage 4 for very long... there is no reliable status quo in stage 4. Divorce never comes in a tidy or timely way. We can't book 6 years in stage 4.

Unless you guys pretty committed to the reality of divorce (not the fantasy of divorce), you might want to throw some "Hail  Mary's" to try to save the relationship.

I'll share a personal story.

Saturday I parked my car down the street while I worked in the garage. My partner and I were going out for the day, so I got dressed, drove her car to mine, got mine and put it in the garage. I then walked to her car. (our garage is a bit tight so it was easier to already have her car out).

She became unglued. Really angry. Wanted to spend the day alone without me. She even locked me out of the car for a few minutes. One neighbor saw this - embarrassing.

Crazy town? She was as made as I've ever see her. "How could you (Skip) do this!"

Crazy town? I could think that. But I don't.

She has been stressed about a distant relative who was diagnosed with Cancer and moved in with her daughters family while be treated. She feels some pressure at work as she was on vacation and needs to catch up. Her daughter in very stressed.  She was hungry. 

Me taking her head on with any of the issues (hungry, work, cancer, daughter)... would only have added gas to the fire. Me taking it personally and thinking it was about the car would not be a good partner.

I've learned, over time, how to defuse a little, give space a little, validate a little, be humble a little in the right doses to start the healing process. She did let me in the car. 2 hours later she was fine. The following day, when she was cool, we were able to talk and agree that it wasn't about the car. I learned this skill when I dated my BPD ex.

My partner is mentally healthy, dependable, emotionally stable, and reasonable. Nonetheless, she reacts to life at times and I've learned that what sets her off often isn't about what she is reacting to. 

It took me a long time to learn that it is not about who is right - it's about navigating the other persons difficult side constructively.

[Ozzie101]

Very true, Skip. One of the big things I've worked on (and am still working on) is interpreting and really listening to what uBPDh says. Often, what he's ranting about isn't what he's really upset about. There are often other factors involved.

Lately, he's been really negative and blowing small things up beyond reasonable levels. (A doctor is slow returning an email means the whole profession is worthless.) But he's also struggling with a sensitive, difficult situation with his family, which means he's going to lash out anywhere and everywhere he can to get rid of some of that hurt and stress.

Knowing that makes it much easier for me to process while he's dysregulating and my better handling of it (I think) helps keep him from going completely off the rails like he did last year.

[MidLifCrysis1]

OK, so I get all this stuff that Skip and Oz are talking about. I've learned this over the past year or two (or three?).

And, I agree: she reacts to life at times and I've learned that what sets her off often isn't about what she is reacting to.

The problem I have is that in such a case (which is very often), she then finds some way of making me the bad guy in the situation and I represent the source of her pain from that point onward (and backward). And she requires me to be super-emotionally invested in groveling at her feet, begging for forgiveness for my horrible transgression.

To even try to discuss/inquire what is going on, just to get up to speed on how she wrote the scene, she reacts like I fired a JADE rocket launcher at her. In the meantime, she is often insulting, degrading, yelling, etc. about how awful I am.

My wife might admit after the fact, that a thing she freaks out about isn't really about that thing, but instead the explanation is that she was so upset about my awful behavior and way I handled the situation, and didn't provide her any comfort or care, no empathy, no compassion, and couldn't even listen to her.

Haven't seen or communicated with her since Monday evening. That might be the longest we've EVER gone without communicating at all in 25 years. Therapist appt tonight for me. Not even sure how I feel about anything.

[Forgiveness]

Midlife, it's possible there is nothing you can do to make her act better. However there are things you can do to make her act worse, and also to worsen your own aggravation. To live with a BPD person takes extreme calmness and the ability to be un-triggered yourself.

For example, I know that if you take a time-out for yourself she will yell that you are abandoning her. However, this doesn't mean you should not take a time-out when you need it. Letting her yell about this may be preferable to getting tangled into a semantic debate with her, which can prolong the hostility more.

Even when a partner of a person with BPD is handling everything as well as possible they will never get all their needs met and the partner will need an outlet (therapy, hobbies, long walks) to let off steam. I know I'm not answering your question, but right now you are so frustrated that I think the first thing you need is some space to clear your head. It's been very, very hard for you for a long time. From here it's hard for you to have empathy or really think about what you want.

[MidLifCrysis1]

Forgiveness: Thanks for stating that. I think I have already, subconsciously made such a determination, but reading the words in your post seemed to solidify the thoughts.

So I kind of feel like I need to say to her (in a more tactful form):
"Look...I am not capable of filling your black hole of emotional need...and that's not my fault/choice/job. You have to decide if you want to keep being my wife in that situation."

I have a huge amount of compassion for what she lives with, trapped in Borderland.
But I really can't have empathy, compassion, or remorse for the individual instances of colossal hurt, pain, and insult she experiences over nothing while she is constantly assaulting me for being the cause of her pain.

I'm afraid that I am glad that she left.

NOT walking on eggshells, because she's not around, feels like breathing clean, cool, dry air after spending hours in a steam-room.

Midlife, it's possible there is nothing you can do to make her act better. However there are things you can do to make her act worse, and also to worsen your own aggravation. To live with a BPD person takes extreme calmness and the ability to be un-triggered yourself.

For example, I know that if you take a time-out for yourself she will yell that you are abandoning her. However, this doesn't mean you should not take a time-out when you need it. Letting her yell about this may be preferable to getting tangled into a semantic debate with her, which can prolong the hostility more.

Even when a partner of a person with BPD is handling everything as well as possible they will never get all their needs met and the partner will need an outlet (therapy, hobbies, long walks) to let off steam. I know I'm not answering your question, but right now you are so frustrated that I think the first thing you need is some space to clear your head. It's been very, very hard for you for a long time. From here it's hard for you to have empathy or really think about what you want.

[Skip]

I know I'm not answering your question, but right now you are so frustrated that I think the first thing you need is some space to clear your head. It's been very, very hard for you for a long time. From here it's hard for you to have empathy or really think about what you want.

This is valid advice.

You're in stage 4, you have been involved in a cycle of conflict for years (she spins the wheel, you spin the wheel, she spins... ), you're beat down. So is she.

Getting the conflict cooled and getting space to think and regroup (nonthreatening so it doesn't amp things up) is essential.

So I kind of feel like I need to say to her (in a more tactful form):
"Look...I am not capable of filling your black hole of emotional need...and that's not my fault/choice/job. You have to decide if you want to keep being my wife in that situation."

I suspect there is no word polishing that will make this constructive. It's essentially, "our relationship problems are your fault, fix them or I'm done." I don't think I've ever seen this work - maybe for a few weeks - but not in the long run.  Not with people in general. Not with BPD.

Relationships are partnerships. Relationship problems are for partners to resolve together. It doesn't sound like either of you are ready for that right now.

I really can't have empathy, compassion, or remorse for the individual instances of colossal hurt, pain, and insult she experiences over nothing while she is constantly assaulting me for being the cause of her pain.

Maybe this would be more accurate as "I don't have empathy, compassion, or remorse for the individual instances of colossal hurt, pain, and insult you are upset about because 1) I feel that its invalid (it's nothing) and 2) while because I'm caught up in the fight"


Getting the conflict cooled and getting space to think and regroup is essential.

[Skip]

I've never heard of a more aptly titled book than "Stop Walking on Eggshells" - that's why I read it. Didn't even know about BPD or that it was about BPD until it's described in the intro or whatever. The title just sounded like something I ought to read. I'd suggest it, if you haven't already read it.

Be careful. 

"Stop Walking on Eggshells"  is a book about how difficult people with BPD can be. Many of us feel validated by that. It's a good first step.

"Stop Care taking the Borderline or Narcissist"   is a book about our motivations  in difficult relationships. It's about us. Important read.

Loving someone with Borderline personality Disorder is a book about helping create a constructive environment and interface with a person with this medical condition to get better outcomes. It's not about curing someone else, its about providing a constructive environment for them to improve. These are tools we all can use in all relationships.

Your situation is very complicated. You really need all three perspectives to make sense of things, make good decisions. Just watching a few video and discussing them here with members will help.

[zachira]

I have read all three of these books recommended by Skip and all three were extremely helpful in dealing with my family members with BPD. Long term therapy and this site have also been extremely helpful. We are here to support you on your journey.

[MidLifCrysis1]

Congrats on getting your daughters off to college!  A couple of related questions:

1)  How did the dynamic between you and your wife change once the children were out of the house?

2)  Do your daughters display traits of BPD?  If not, was there anything specific you did in your parenting that protected them from becoming BPD?

3) Was there any particular event that set off your wife 3 years ago and led to the current extra-dysfunctional period?

1) It's hard to tell, really, as she has been changing so much over the past several months, I don't know which variables have had which effect, really. I can say that she has clearly allowed the "we have to be solid for the kids" stricture melt away - said so herself, pretty much. She's even said about how she is free to move out now that the kids are gone and escape this torturous prison or whatever.

2) Not a simple or short question to consider or answer. I would say...maybe...of course it's always hard to tell where "normal" personality styles and traits end and the same personality styles and traits enter the "abnormal" zone. I'd probably have a lot to say about this one, but don't have the time to write it all out right now. Maybe I can message you about it. In short, I would say that they very probably have some damage from it all, but I can't say what that damage really is, in a diagnostic sense. I did try very hard to walk the tightrope of 1) trying to talk with them about the crazyish interactions that sometimes occurred between me or them and my wife such that they would be sure not to think that they were the ones doing/acting/understanding/processing incorrectly/inappropriately/irrationally and 2) not disparaging their mother or really talking about their mother to them "behind her back" - tried to explain that even when people do the best that they can in a given situation, one person's "best" for a given thing is not necessarily "good" - I could try to play piano with all my heart and soul and it would still sound like . Told them that being a mom is their Mom's most valued part of her life, and she puts her whole being into being the best at it that she can; but sometimes, she doesn't do a great job at it. That kind of thing...

3) It's hard to tell, really, as she has been changing so much over the past several months years , I don't know which variables have had which effect, really. *shakes head* I can tell you that some of my ideas have been:

• Hard life things for her (car accident, extended family challenges, effort to change careers, new grad school effort, Mom of teenage girls, etc.) - she has taken much of these pretty hard and it has worn down her ability to cope with any given thing; negatively synergized with the next point...
• Breaking point of built-up triggers/trauma from prior years (that I didn't know was having such an effect); things like: absolutely horrific childhood/home life; me being away from home 100% for a couple of months for a work thing - that she was 100% on board with and encouraged me to do, yet apparently left horrible psychic scars and bitterness deep inside her; me being away for a weekend or two every month for search and rescue work, also something that she was 100% on board with and encouraged me to do, yet apparently left horrible psychic scars and bitterness deep inside her; not having everything about and around our home done/redone/whatever to the way she wanted it to be; feeling betrayed/let down, since after so many years together, I should "get it" and have automatic/reflexive responses and understanding to her every need/emotion; etc.

I suppose I could go on for a while, but again, I am supposed to be working right now.