3 months NC, sent her a message, and me thinking about things.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

If its partly due to an illness, does that somehow not make it evil?

If you are asking - does NPD absolve a person of evil - well I guess if you read what I wrote - then that's what I am saying.  And I'm going to say that "evil" was a poor choice of words.

My understanding is that a pwBPD is not coming from a place designed intentionally to keep someone down or to really single them out to hurt them. They are not on the prey in the same way as someone with NPD is
I was really wanting to say that if a person has NPD, then all the more reason to distance yourself from them.  Because if that is the case, as was the case in my situation, the the non-BPD/NPD person was more of a target rather than just someone who was unfortunately at the wrong place and the wrong time.

My ex would literally troll people on FaceBook.  I could not really understand why until I would watch her lure those people back into our sphere at opportune times only to discard them just as quickly when she was done with them.

Sorry for the poor choice of words.

Rev

[Rev]

If its partly due to an illness, does that somehow not make it evil?

If you are asking - does NPD absolve a person of evil - well I guess if you read what I wrote - then that's what I am saying.  And I'm going to say that "evil" was a poor choice of words.

My understanding is that a pwBPD is not coming from a place designed intentionally to keep someone down or to really single them out to hurt them. They are not on the prey in the same way as someone with NPD is
I was really wanting to say that if a person has NPD, then all the more reason to distance yourself from them.  Because if that is the case, as was the case in my situation, the the non-BPD/NPD person was more of a target rather than just someone who was unfortunately at the wrong place and the wrong time.

My ex would literally troll people on FaceBook.  I could not really understand why until I would watch her lure those people back into our sphere at opportune times only to discard them just as quickly when she was done with them.

Sorry for the poor choice of words.

Rev

[1315]

Thanks, Confusedbybpd. I think I got ahold of myself. I have struggled off and on for the last 3 months. Perhaps it is the length of the relationship and the chronic erosion of me as a person that has made this breakup so devastating. I really appreciate all of the words of support. I know in my mind that the woman I thought I was married to is only partially real. I was sort of hoping in my heart that she would see the error of her ways and we could mend things but I know in my mind that is not going to happen. She would indeed have to come to a realization that she has this personality disorder and then find a way to address it. She takes no responsibility at all for the problems in our relationship. Instead she has told me for 12 years I am incapable of a connected relationship. I really came to believe I was the problem. Of course I now understand that it is actually her who is unable of that kind of connection. It has eaten away at my self esteem, self worth and confidence. I came to believe that because our problems were my fault, I was lucky to have her and would be totally lost if she left. No one else would have me. That's the hole I'm crawling out of...

[Longterm]

  Pretty sure she had NPD tendencies as well.  How could we define something as evil?  I would define it as the behavior that determines it.  There is the conscious decision to perform it.  If its partly due to an illness, does that somehow not make it evil?

It's a difficult question isn't it? If we have an old lady with dementia and she is punching/kicking us, we are clearly being abused. Is it her fault that she feels the need to do that? Are charges bought against her? Not usually no, because shes Ill right? With PD's it really is a lot more difficult as I believe that it's very difficult to pinpoint what behaviour is conscious and subconscious. I have spoke to my T about this in the past and she said I will probably never know, but it is best to look at the behaviour as a whole. Is it their fault? Are they that "evil" that they do these things on purpose? Best to just look at it for what it is I guess.

I believe my ex has done many things consciously with the intent of causing pain to those around her. But I also believe that she does things subconsciously, things she simply cannot see and take responsibility for. Is she "evil"? I really dont know the answer but I know how she makes me and the kids feel and it's not good.

How does your ex make you feel? How do you interpret her behaviour?

LT.

[lucidone]

If you are asking - does NPD absolve a person of evil - well I guess if you read what I wrote - then that's what I am saying.  And I'm going to say that "evil" was a poor choice of words.

My understanding is that a pwBPD is not coming from a place designed intentionally to keep someone down or to really single them out to hurt them. They are not on the prey in the same way as someone with NPD is
I was really wanting to say that if a person has NPD, then all the more reason to distance yourself from them.  Because if that is the case, as was the case in my situation, the the non-BPD/NPD person was more of a target rather than just someone who was unfortunately at the wrong place and the wrong time.

My ex would literally troll people on FaceBook.  I could not really understand why until I would watch her lure those people back into our sphere at opportune times only to discard them just as quickly when she was done with them.

Sorry for the poor choice of words.

Rev

No need to apologize for anything.  We could easily replace 'evil' with something less extreme, although I'm sure in some cases that would be accurate.  We could use 'immoral' instead.  To be honest, I don't see a difference in qualifying the behavior regardless if its NPD, BPD, or anti-social PD, or outside of a specific personality disorder.  They're making a conscious choice to do something immoral, for whatever reason. I would label them as immoral.  But I guess this is starting to get into the arena of philosophy at this point.

[lucidone]

Thanks, Confusedbybpd. I think I got ahold of myself. I have struggled off and on for the last 3 months. Perhaps it is the length of the relationship and the chronic erosion of me as a person that has made this breakup so devastating. I really appreciate all of the words of support. I know in my mind that the woman I thought I was married to is only partially real. I was sort of hoping in my heart that she would see the error of her ways and we could mend things but I know in my mind that is not going to happen. She would indeed have to come to a realization that she has this personality disorder and then find a way to address it. She takes no responsibility at all for the problems in our relationship. Instead she has told me for 12 years I am incapable of a connected relationship. I really came to believe I was the problem. Of course I now understand that it is actually her who is unable of that kind of connection. It has eaten away at my self esteem, self worth and confidence. I came to believe that because our problems were my fault, I was lucky to have her and would be totally lost if she left. No one else would have me. That's the hole I'm crawling out of...

This is more or less what I went through and think as well.  She took no responsibility anything that happened in our relationship.  Blamed everything on me.  Or she said that we had different communication styles (she didn't have a communication style when it came to anything slightly aversive in the relationship aside from passive aggressiveness).  She had this way of trying to put me on alert (e.g., "that guy is good looking") and would comment on things that I said or did in a condescending way, presumably in an attempt to erode my self-esteem and/or confidence.  I didn't truly believe that things were my fault, but it tested my patience, was quite confusing, and was tedious to have to deal with.  Plus her various other extreme behaviors made a satisfying relationship with her impossible.

It was hard to deal with.  I feel ya man.  I think you got it much worse than I did though.  I've found that expressing myself on these boards very therapeutic.  There's a good group of people here that can relate to us.

[1315]

 It invades your operating system.  It wrecks your system, and the only way to fix it is to remove the virus.  I know that sounds harsh, but I honestly can't think of any other way.  Love and effort don't work against distortions, victim mentality, lack of responsibility, etc.  And as you said, it seems to end up enabling "bad" behavior.  That's why we ruminate.  We keep turning it over in our minds for two reasons: 1) to try (in vain) to understand it and make sense of it, and 2) because our ex's don't take any responsibility or give us closure, so if anyone is going to try to make sense of it we have to!  In other words, we're left doing all the work, while they move on to the next unsuspecting person.  I would have written "unsuspecting victim," but I was afraid of sounding too "negative."   

This is right on. It keeps me stuck in neutral. I'm still trying to figure out in my logical mind how someone i literally would have died for could throw me away without any appearance of care or knowledge of what it has done to me. How did I miss this? It was so out of nowhere although has happened before. I'm trying to logically analyze something that is not logical. But I have no answers. How was I so blinded. Too many questions without answers and I chew and chew and chew. It makes me feel crazy. I'm struggling to pick up the pieces and she appears to be  unaffected.

[lucidone]

It's a difficult question isn't it? If we have an old lady with dementia and she is punching/kicking us, we are clearly being abused. Is it her fault that she feels the need to do that? Are charges bought against her? Not usually no, because shes Ill right? With PD's it really is a lot more difficult as I believe that it's very difficult to pinpoint what behaviour is conscious and subconscious. I have spoke to my T about this in the past and she said I will probably never know, but it is best to look at the behaviour as a whole. Is it their fault? Are they that "evil" that they do these things on purpose? Best to just look at it for what it is I guess.

I believe my ex has done many things consciously with the intent of causing pain to those around her. But I also believe that she does things subconsciously, things she simply cannot see and take responsibility for. Is she "evil"? I really dont know the answer but I know how she makes me and the kids feel and it's not good.

How does your ex make you feel? How do you interpret her behaviour?

LT.

I wouldn't necessarily use 'evil', as mentioned in a prior post.  "immoral" would be a better one.  While I was with her her behavior and expectations made me feel confused as they weren't typical as per a 'normal' relationship.  There was times I was angry at her for the way she treated me and our relationship.  I was frustrated because no matter how 'good' I was it was never enough and she wouldn't meet me '25%' of the way.  I was sad because the relationship was failing.

I've been trying to think about what would be considered conscious and unconscious behavior, and how much of both would be considered immoral, but I found it to be more tedious than I thought and stopped.  Also, I suppose, its not really the point of this thread.

[lucidone]

This is right on. It keeps me stuck in neutral. I'm still trying to figure out in my logical mind how someone i literally would have died for could throw me away without any appearance of care or knowledge of what it has done to me. How did I miss this? It was so out of nowhere although has happened before. I'm trying to logically analyze something that is not logical. But I have no answers. How was I so blinded. Too many questions without answers and I chew and chew and chew. It makes me feel crazy. I'm struggling to pick up the pieces and she appears to be  unaffected.

There is multiple psychological dynamics at play with them.  A lot of them comes from extreme and emotional immaturity.  I can't really comment on your specific person, but in general, protecting their fragile ego and sense of self is their number one priority.  If they need to use extreme, manipulative behavior to do it, they will do it.  They may consider what it will do to you (or they may not), but it doesn't matter, because their need is more important.  It's a very immature way of viewing other people, and its a very immature way of dealing with their own concerns and that of the relationship.

They are hyper sensitive to threats to their self.  They'll see them when they aren't really there.  They have difficult regulating their emotions, and they can easily get out of control.  These can create more relationship issues, and more extreme ones.  When they come up they tend to blame those around them (usually their SO), as their fragile self can't handle doing something (or feeling, or thinking) thats 'wrong'.  So they blame you.

They tend to view themselves and others as either all good or all bad (also immature thinking).  They perceive a threat, they get emotional, they blame you, then you become all bad to them.  You're the worst person in the world now.  The worst person in the world deserves horrible things done to them; part of the reason for their cruelty and viciousness.  Also, because blaming themselves for something would make them 'all bad', and they are more easily to blame others.

Now you're all bad.  Feelings are temporary, but for them, they tend to think that if they feel that way about you now, then they always felt that way about you, and/or they always will.  The worst person in the world that's always been that way and always will be, and the apparent source of all the inner turmoil, and you must be discarded out of their life.  The worst person in the world doesn't deserve closure, civility, sympathy, etc.  

They also tend to easily attach and detach themselves from others.  They will distance themselves from others to protect their fragile self.  The push and pull dynamic is normal in their relationships, and they're experienced in using it.  The more distant someone is, the less attachment there is, the less potential threat to their self, and the easier it is to detach from someone.  

However they need love, UNCONDITIONALLY.  They need to replace you with someone that will provide that love, to reassure their fragile self.  You made them feel bad, you're the worst person in the world, they will 'always' feel this way about you, there is less of an attachment, and they need someone to love them, so they move on, as fast as possible!

As was talked about in earlier posts, it isn't logical.  Many times fear isn't rational.  There are phobias of styrofoam.  It's harmless, and to fear it is irrational.  Anything can be feared.  They've developed a fear of abandonment and rejection, even when we show them nothing but love, and they can have very low self-esteems, which they must protect at all costs.  They've developed a variety of defense mechanisms to help with that (or simply utilize immature childlike ones where nothing more adaptive has evolved from).  It's not logical, and we can't logically deal with it.  I think the best that we can do is learn how to cope with it as it comes, and try to get them to fix themselves (i.e., therapy).

All of this combines to create a insane relationship dynamics, and it's hurtful, unfair, and confusing to the SO.  Understanding their dysfunction might help you recover from what you've been through and remove blame from yourself.

[Rev]

To be honest, I don't see a difference in qualifying the behavior regardless if its NPD, BPD, or anti-social PD, or outside of a specific personality disorder.  They're making a conscious choice to do something immoral, for whatever reason. I would label them as immoral.

Totally agree... keeping focussed on this is what is keeping me moving in the right direction.  I was just being careful.

Thanks for all us this.  Very good for me to get this off my chest.