Reactive Abuse - what do you think?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

https://breakthesilencedv.org/reactive-abuse-what-it-is-and-why-abusers-rely-on-it/

One of the most common tactics abusers use is to shift blame for the abuse onto the victim. The abuser will claim the victim is the abuser because of the reaction the victim has. The abuser may even attempt to convince the victim that there is nothing worth reacting over and that the victim is overreacting to the abuse. What the victim is actually experiencing is called reactive abuse.

Definition

Reactive abuse occurs when the victim reacts to the abuse they are experiencing. The victim may scream, toss out insults, or even lash out physically at the abuser. The abuser then retaliates by telling the victim that they are, in fact, the abuser.

Why abusers rely on it

Abusers rely on this “reactive abuse” because it is their “proof” that the victim is unstable and mentally ill. The abuser will hold these reactions against the victims indefinitely. It could be years later and the abuser will say, “Well, back in (whatever year), you had this reaction and acted all crazy. You’re the crazy one! You need help.”

Sometimes abusers use this reaction as an excuse to go to police or even file for protective orders of their own.

A method of manipulation

To manipulate is to unfairly influence a situation. When an abuser claims they are the ones being abused, they are manipulating us into believing we are at fault for the abuse. The abusers are conditioning and manipulating us to accept the blame. The longer this blame shifting goes on, the longer we will believe we are to blame for the reactive outbursts and abuse that the abuser is dishing out. We will begin to believe we are the violent and unstable ones.

This manipulation can even go so far as to cause us to feel shame. When we react, it causes the abuser to claim we are the abusive ones. But these reactions also add a second element to the mix – they cause us to feel bad about ourselves to the point of guilt and shame. We act against what we know to be true about ourselves – that we are good, kind, capable, loving people. But that goes out the window when we experience the guilt and shame more and more. The guilt and shame that the abusers continue to condition us to feel.

Reactive abuse vs. mutual abuse

According to domesticshelters.org, mutual abuse is when both partners are equally abusive to one another. Many survivors often ask themselves if they are abusive too because of how they react, but the truth is that mutual abuse is very rare and many experts don’t believe it exists. The power and control dynamics involved in domestic violence would make it nearly impossible for both partners to be abusive.

The key word here is “react.” That’s the difference between reactive abuse and mutual abuse. Victims and survivors react to the abuse doled out by the abuser.

What we can do instead

When you see yourself reacting in this manner, many times you begin to say to yourself, “Whoa, this isn’t me. This isn’t how I am normally.” When you begin to ask yourself those questions, you know something is not right with the relationship. I know I thought those things before – that I knew how I was reacting wasn’t me. It wasn’t who I was. That’s what the abuser wants – to make you question yourself, your character, and your integrity. But many times, by the time we get to the point of asking ourselves those questions, we are either too scared to leave the abuser or we just don’t have the means to do so.

So what can we do instead? The abusers bank on us reacting negatively to their tactics. When we begin to truly think about how we respond to them, we are taking back our power. We begin to respond and not react. To react is almost like an automatic thing – it’s the fight or flight response. But responding involves a thought process that requires us to really consider our thoughts and actions.

Within the realm of domestic violence, there is always one who initiates or instigates the problems in the relationship. It comes back to that one person needing power and control over their  victim. That’s what abuse is – the imbalance of power. The abuser, however, would like us to believe otherwise and say, “Well, we were abusive to each other. It’s mutual abuse.” It’s because the abusers will never accept responsibility for their actions and instead shift blame for the abuse onto us.

Abuse  takes many forms.

[Azdaja]

https://breakthesilencedv.org/reactive-abuse-what-it-is-and-why-abusers-rely-on-it/

One of the most common tactics abusers use is to shift blame for the abuse onto the victim. The abuser will claim the victim is the abuser because of the reaction the victim has. The abuser may even attempt to convince the victim that there is nothing worth reacting over and that the victim is overreacting to the abuse. What the victim is actually experiencing is called reactive abuse.

Definition

Reactive abuse occurs when the victim reacts to the abuse they are experiencing. The victim may scream, toss out insults, or even lash out physically at the abuser. The abuser then retaliates by telling the victim that they are, in fact, the abuser.

Why abusers rely on it

Abusers rely on this “reactive abuse” because it is their “proof” that the victim is unstable and mentally ill. The abuser will hold these reactions against the victims indefinitely. It could be years later and the abuser will say, “Well, back in (whatever year), you had this reaction and acted all crazy. You’re the crazy one! You need help.”

Sometimes abusers use this reaction as an excuse to go to police or even file for protective orders of their own.

A method of manipulation

To manipulate is to unfairly influence a situation. When an abuser claims they are the ones being abused, they are manipulating us into believing we are at fault for the abuse. The abusers are conditioning and manipulating us to accept the blame. The longer this blame shifting goes on, the longer we will believe we are to blame for the reactive outbursts and abuse that the abuser is dishing out. We will begin to believe we are the violent and unstable ones.

This manipulation can even go so far as to cause us to feel shame. When we react, it causes the abuser to claim we are the abusive ones. But these reactions also add a second element to the mix – they cause us to feel bad about ourselves to the point of guilt and shame. We act against what we know to be true about ourselves – that we are good, kind, capable, loving people. But that goes out the window when we experience the guilt and shame more and more. The guilt and shame that the abusers continue to condition us to feel.

Reactive abuse vs. mutual abuse

According to domesticshelters.org, mutual abuse is when both partners are equally abusive to one another. Many survivors often ask themselves if they are abusive too because of how they react, but the truth is that mutual abuse is very rare and many experts don’t believe it exists. The power and control dynamics involved in domestic violence would make it nearly impossible for both partners to be abusive.

The key word here is “react.” That’s the difference between reactive abuse and mutual abuse. Victims and survivors react to the abuse doled out by the abuser.

What we can do instead

When you see yourself reacting in this manner, many times you begin to say to yourself, “Whoa, this isn’t me. This isn’t how I am normally.” When you begin to ask yourself those questions, you know something is not right with the relationship. I know I thought those things before – that I knew how I was reacting wasn’t me. It wasn’t who I was. That’s what the abuser wants – to make you question yourself, your character, and your integrity. But many times, by the time we get to the point of asking ourselves those questions, we are either too scared to leave the abuser or we just don’t have the means to do so.

So what can we do instead? The abusers bank on us reacting negatively to their tactics. When we begin to truly think about how we respond to them, we are taking back our power. We begin to respond and not react. To react is almost like an automatic thing – it’s the fight or flight response. But responding involves a thought process that requires us to really consider our thoughts and actions.

Within the realm of domestic violence, there is always one who initiates or instigates the problems in the relationship. It comes back to that one person needing power and control over their  victim. That’s what abuse is – the imbalance of power. The abuser, however, would like us to believe otherwise and say, “Well, we were abusive to each other. It’s mutual abuse.” It’s because the abusers will never accept responsibility for their actions and instead shift blame for the abuse onto us.

Abuse  takes many forms.

[Enabler]

I identify with this piece. One thing I have worked on in the last 3 years is to turn right when every sinew in my body is telling me to turn left. It often came out in the form of aggressively JADEing.

One thing I noticed when I stopped reacting and started responding is the lengths to which my W upped her game in an attempt to 'get' the reaction she was looking for. As soon as she got the 'hook' she would instantly flip to a more passive victim persona where she would give off the body language of someone who'd been mortally wounded. I also noted that there were certain events she would almost certainly do this game just before she was going out for... almost like she couldn't leave till she'd got the hook and as soon as she had she'd walk out.

Interesting concept.

Enabler

[Lucky Jim]

Happened plenty of times to me.  My BPDxW would taunt, goad and bully me until she got a reaction, then she could point the finger at me.

I learned that it made no difference whether my reaction was positive or negative, as long as she got me engaged.

I decided it was best for me to decline to react.  I wouldn't play her game.  I left the room, the house and eventually her.  At that point, it wasn't much of a marriage.

LuckyJim

[Skip]

Is it really a thing?

I read this on the homegrown support groups and blogs. It's not a psychology term. It's generally described as a ploy. At first read, it seems to blame our partner for his bad behavior and then blame our partner for our bad behavior.

We now have a victim identity movement, fueled by an industry of self-help authors and advocates, that has conferred a certain status to being a victim and thereby blurred the line between victims and abusers.~ Steven Stosny, Ph.D.

I'm not suggesting that Stosny is the judge or the expert - just asking why your opinion is about this counter view on this "Internet psychology term".
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200905/the-line-between-victims-and-abusers

Surely many of us have reacted to bad actions by others. Someone pushed you on the street, you are faced with a decision - swing and hit them or walk away. Is this "reactive abuse".  Who owns the counter pounch?

Stosny suggests that people label things like walking up and punching a know bully as a proactive measure?  Who owns that counter?

What are your thoughts?

Within the realm of domestic violence, there is always one who initiates or instigates the problems in the relationship. It comes back to that one person needing power and control over their  victim. That’s what abuse is – the imbalance of power. The abuser, however, would like us to believe otherwise and say, “Well, we were abusive to each other. It’s mutual abuse.” It’s because the abusers will never accept responsibility for their actions and instead shift blame for the abuse onto us.

Abuse  takes many forms.

Is is always "one"?

[Enabler]

Skip,

I think the important part of the dynamic is best described using the Karpman triangle and specifically the shift from being perpetrator to victim almost instantly the abuser gets ‘the hook’. In many respects the abusers end zone is to regain and validate to themselves their victim position (my physiological reasoning for this would be that once upon a time they were indeed a victim of someone and this position feels comfortable to them). They know that with enough stimulus a reactive non will react in a predictable way, be that defend themselves or invalidate the abuser.

In the example of being barged on the street, I’m not sure the bargers aim is to be punched and then cry victim. A better analogy might be a football (soccer)  player such as Ronaldo. He will very intentionally drag a foot in the penalty area. He knows full well that a defender may likely unintentionally tap that foot and he’ll roll around on the floor as they he’s received a season killing ankle injury... and bingo he gets a penalty. It’s unfair, it’s unsportsmanlike and he should be red carded for it. But, no matter how many times he does it, referees are somewhat powerless to deny him his penalty fix.

Either way the perpetrator gets their fix, they’re either able to strike undefended or, they come away with a penalty which can be wheeled out forever. I’d imagine most reactive nons didn’t start out reactive, they allowed quit a few free shots before they decided to ‘stand up for themselves’, and when they did stand up for themselves they realised they had a toolkit of very very blunt useless tools.

Enabler

[Mutt]

Happened plenty of times to me.  My BPDxW would taunt, goad and bully me until she got a reaction, then she could point the finger at me.

My exuBPDw to this day will still try to bait me. I don't take the bait!

That being said I don't keep tabs on her but the kids do tell me from time to time what is going in their lives and that includes mom. I co-parent with my exuBPDw and I encourage them to talk about their mom because I want to stress that she is not a taboo subject at my house. My oldest is open to me and is confused at times about mom's erratic behaviors and will share that with me when we talk.

I notice a pattern when there is usually something particularly stressful going on in her life post-divorce she will make an attempt at least once to try and bait. The last two instances was when she was going to family court with her ex over custody and access of their child and her mother has recently fallen seriously ill.

She's trying to assuage feelings that she cannot process in a healthy way by turning to ex attachments that at one point in her life would sooth her feelings through conflict.

I'm her ex husband and it's not my duty to console her for one she is not a constructive person and if someone is not constructive and is not interested in solutions then they are not close to me I keep those people distant with boundaries. I pull the good people really close to me and I keep the bad ones distant from me.

My advice to newcomers and senior members is to learn about the disorder, stop reacting, set boundaries on yourself and detach.

[Cat Familiar]

Having been married to an abuser (my first marriage) for many years, I understand the desire to react in kind. But I soon realized that was very dangerous to my physical well-being. Instead, I internalized the abuse and my health and self esteem suffered.

Usually he would never really listen to my side of things and would turn any disagreement into a complaint of how he was victimized by me. I would end up apologizing for my part, then hours later I’d think, “Wait a minute, he never addressed the issues I was talking about.”

One day he actually seemed to hear me and I told him how bad it felt to be hit, choked, pushed to the ground and having the wind knocked out of me. He offered to let me hit him in the chest, if that would even the score and make me feel better. I was reluctant to do so, as I’d never wanted to hurt anybody, but he egged me on.

Instead of hitting him once, I probably hit him with all my strength about twenty times. I felt overcome by years of suppressed fury and once I started, I couldn’t stop. Surpsingly he just took it, and didn’t fight back, but the look in his eyes let me know that I was hurting him.

I think we were both frightened by that. I’ve never before nor since had a moment when I felt as if I’d completely lost control over myself. And looking back, I don’t think he ever hit me again. He did throw something at me on the night I ended our marriage, but it wasn’t anything that would have hurt me.

I know that I never want to be someone who returns unkindness with unkindness. I’m better than that. Disengaging from bullies is a far better strategy than playing into their game.

[gizmo7247]

I also identify closely with this concept. The first year of the relationship she would do something (flip out on me, play a mind game, etc.) and I would react - usually getting angry and saying something hurtful.

Once I did - the whole conversation would turn into what I said and how it hurt her, but never focus on what she had done initially. And this is the important part - I never came out of left field, it was ALWAYS in reaction to something hurtful she did out of the blue.

Regardless, I'm responsible for my words and my reactions. So after year 1 I went into therapy and started working on my responses and how to step back, per se.

Here's where things get interesting. After that first year I stopped engaging - and when she flipped out I would try to diffuse, calm her and suggest we talk later when we were more cool-headed.

As I stopped reacting, her flip outs became more and more frequent, and more and more heightened.

And then things got really bad with her. As she couldn't deflect her actions with my reactions, it started to build on her own internal shame, and we ended up in a therapists office two years later. Once there she declared how "horrible" she felt for the way she'd been treating me over the past two years, admitted I'd done a 180 and was not reacting, but then quickly blamed her continued abuse on things I had said during the first year.

I honestly don't think pwBPD are consciously trying to goad a reaction out of you to blame you for - I think they just cannot sit with their own guilt, or take any responsibility, so they will scramble to find whatever "out" they can take. As my case shows, if it's not reactionary "abuse" - then it's some other external thing they need to find.

It's also worth noting - my reactions were always told to her friends and family, but she NEVER told the context of what I was reacting to. Then she would use her friend or family's response to a one-sided story to "prove" to herself that I was the bad person. It was basically a circular confirmation bias. Good times.

[formflier]

I think the term/description is helpful to understand the dynamic, especially if you then use that understanding to "not take the bait".

One thing I would cast some "shade" on is below

https://breakthesilencedv.org/reactive-abuse-what-it-is-and-why-abusers-rely-on-it/

 

Why abusers rely on it

Abusers rely on this “reactive abuse” because it is their “proof” that the victim is unstable and mentally ill. The abuser will hold these reactions against the victims indefinitely. It could be years later and the abuser will say, “Well, back in (whatever year), you had this reaction and acted all crazy. You’re the crazy one! You need help.”

Sometimes abusers use this reaction as an excuse to go to police or even file for protective orders of their own.
 

When I read this I get the impression that "abusers" think through the strategy they are going to use.

I think this is more what they do because of emotional state/learned behavior vice any sort of thought out "plan" to massage things so they can claim someone else is an abuser.

Think of it this way.  I'm thought a lot about "boundaries" and I'm deliberate about implementing boundaries to stabilize my relationships and protect my values.

I really doubt abusers read over a list of tools and pick out "reactive abuse" as what they are going to go with for a while.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Forgiveness]

Such a great point Skip. I have nothing to add, just wanted to cut and paste because this is so good. And the link is good too. Thank you.

Is it really a thing?

I read this on the homegrown support groups and blogs. It's not a psychology term. It's generally described as a ploy. At first read, it seems to blame our partner for his bad behavior and then blame our partner for our bad behavior.

I'm not suggesting that Stosny is the judge or the expert - just asking why your opinion is about this counter view on this "Internet psychology term".
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200905/the-line-between-victims-and-abusers

[formflier]

I read this on the homegrown support groups and blogs. It's not a psychology term. It's generally described as a ploy. At first read, it seems to blame our partner for his bad behavior and then blame our partner for our bad behavior.
 

This is an interesting thought.

One the one hand, if the "abuser" didn't have bad behavior, the chances of "the non" having bad behavior in this instance is about zilch.

On the other hand, we are all responsible for our own behavior.  I would argue it's especially important to mind our manners when pwBPD are behaving badly and "baiting" us into stuff.

I've certainly behaved badly after "being baited" (and unfortunately likely will again).  I'll certainly try to avoid it, but when a new "tactic" shows up, I tend to get busted once and then when things calm I realize what's really going on.

So, some people may like to use this to excuse their "bad responses".  I think the more important thing, even if we slip up and spew some nasty, is that we quickly adjust and move forward in a healthier way.

Over time that will separate "us" from those with little emotional control.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Longterm]

Oh, what a good subject.

 Reactive abuse occurs when the victim reacts to the abuse they are experiencing. The victim may scream, toss out insults, or even lash out physically at the abuser. The abuser then retaliates by telling the victim that they are, in fact, the abuser.

I have done this in the past, I cringe thinking about it because my ex would make me feel 10x worse. It takes a lot to make me show anger but on occasion I have got to the point where I have shouted at her, she would put her hands on her hips and nod at me smiling, upon finishing my rant she would say "you finished now? Have you let it all out? You need to sort yourself out".

 Abusers rely on this “reactive abuse” because it is their “proof” that the victim is unstable and mentally ill. The abuser will hold these reactions against the victims indefinitely. It could be years later and the abuser will say, “Well, back in (whatever year), you had this reaction and acted all crazy. You’re the crazy one! You need help.”

Yes, the good old "ye, well 300yrs ago...
" these comments could come from something trivial like me not washing her clothes etc, always made to feel bad and reminded of every little thing I did that she didn't approve of.

To manipulate is to unfairly influence a situation. When an abuser claims they are the ones being abused, they are manipulating us into believing we are at fault for the abuse. The abusers are conditioning and manipulating us to accept the blame. The longer this blame shifting goes on, the longer we will believe we are to blame for the reactive outbursts and abuse that the abuser is dishing out. We will begin to believe we are the violent and unstable ones.  

This is why the victim blames themselves after the demise of the relationship, the conditioning and trauma bonding is truly brutal. They go off and ghost you, lie, cheat and demonize you, yet all the time you feel as though you are the one at fault, it is insidious and can crush even the most strong of people, recovery is long and full of ups and downs as you begin to put yourself back together, a horrible experience.

 This manipulation can even go so far as to cause us to feel shame. When we react, it causes the abuser to claim we are the abusive ones. But these reactions also add a second element to the mix – they cause us to feel bad about ourselves to the point of guilt and shame. We act against what we know to be true about ourselves – that we are good, kind, capable, loving people. But that goes out the window when we experience the guilt and shame more and more. The guilt and shame that the abusers continue to condition us to feel.

Thus losing ourselves and our boundaries in the process, the slow death of ones sense of self. A humbling experience. The shame is something I can relate to, I would feel shame for saying no, for not bowing to her every demand.

 According to domesticshelters.org, mutual abuse is when both partners are equally abusive to one another. Many survivors often ask themselves if they are abusive too because of how they react, but the truth is that mutual abuse is very rare and many experts don’t believe it exists. The power and control dynamics involved in domestic violence would make it nearly impossible for both partners to be abusive.

The key word here is “react.” That’s the difference between reactive abuse and mutual abuse. Victims and survivors react to the abuse doled out by the abuser.

I spoke to my T about this a while back. I asked how my behaviour is not abusive when sometimes I would raise my voice, or leave the house. She said the abuse started way before I would shout, that shouting is a form of abuse, but I was reacting to abuse in an abusive way, not doling the abuse out in order to manipulate and control. She said thinking about my own reactions and working on them would be a good way forward whilst trying to drop the shame by accepting I was in an abusive relationship and every human being has a limit.

 When you see yourself reacting in this manner, many times you begin to say to yourself, “Whoa, this isn’t me. This isn’t how I am normally.” When you begin to ask yourself those questions, you know something is not right with the relationship. I know I thought those things before – that I knew how I was reacting wasn’t me. It wasn’t who I was. That’s what the abuser wants – to make you question yourself, your character, and your integrity. But many times, by the time we get to the point of asking ourselves those questions, we are either too scared to leave the abuser or we just don’t have the means to do so.

Trapped, job done, no way out, a slave to somebody else's emotions, sad, tragic.

 So what can we do instead? The abusers bank on us reacting negatively to their tactics. When we begin to truly think about how we respond to them, we are taking back our power. We begin to respond and not react. To react is almost like an automatic thing – it’s the fight or flight response. But responding involves a thought process that requires us to really consider our thoughts and actions.

Yes, they want a reaction, it feeds them. My ex openly admitted when she came back to trying to get a rise out of me and becoming angry and infuriated that I refused to play the game. It was part wanting to protect my dignity and part fear. She had taken so much and I shut up shop. Funny how this topic has come up as I have been in contact with my ex today and have experienced her trying very hard to get me to explode by blaming and projecting, I will not bite.

 Within the realm of domestic violence, there is always one who initiates or instigates the problems in the relationship. It comes back to that one person needing power and control over their  victim. That’s what abuse is – the imbalance of power. The abuser, however, would like us to believe otherwise and say, “Well, we were abusive to each other. It’s mutual abuse.” It’s because the abusers will never accept responsibility for their actions and instead shift blame for the abuse onto us.

My ex has said those words to me, "we have BOTH done bad things to each other", I told her to tell me what bad things I did to her, she looked right through me then changed the subject.

LT.

[gizmo7247]

This is why the victim blames themselves after the demise of the relationship, the conditioning and trauma bonding is truly brutal. They go off and ghost you, lie, cheat and demonize you, yet all the time you feel as though you are the one at fault, it is insidious and can crush even the most strong of people, recovery is long and full of ups and downs as you begin to put yourself back together, a horrible experience.

This is SUCH a good point, and an aspect that those who have not gone through something like this have such a hard time understanding.

I can't even remember how many times my Ts told me I had been abused, yet I still blamed myself and thought of myself as the abusive one - and her as the victim. "Conditioned" is such an appropriate description.

Her post break smear campaign made things worse - because while I was reeling and still blaming myself, she was running around blaming me for all sorts of outlandish allegations. And even though they were patently false on the surface, I would still doubt my own reality and wonder if I had gotten it all wrong? For example, she devolved terribly and even began saying that I had "followed" her to NY and she had to get a restraining order - even though two weeks before our break she was demanding we see each other before christmas, and giving me christmas gifts, wanting to spend the night and telling me she loved me. Yet somehow, I really began to question myself as to whether I actually had followed her to NY and she didn't want me here. The manipulation is insane.

For what it's worth - what truly helped me untangle the mess was this reality:

A year into the relationship, I realized I was reacting angrily and saying mean things in response. I didn't like that about myself, so I checked into therapy to work on those issues.

I stopped reacting in that way, but her abusive comments and actions continued, and even got worse.

Now why I put up with that for three more years is a separate issue, but just isolating that I had the self-awareness to work on my own behavior that I didn't like - yet she continued to blame me for everything...it doesn't get any clearer than that as to who was the controlling abuser.

[Lucky Jim]

Thus losing ourselves and our boundaries in the process, the slow death of ones sense of self. A humbling experience. The shame is something I can relate to, I would feel shame for saying no, for not bowing to her every demand.

Friends, I'll say it was humbling!  I forgot who I was for a while there, which was not fun.  Fortunately my friends and family noticed it and conducted an intervention in an effort to get me out of an abusive situation.  They probably saved my life, which sounds melodramatic but is not.

Trapped, job done, no way out, a slave to somebody else's emotions, sad, tragic

Well said by

Longterm

.  I was drowning in the BPD River, heading for the Falls.
Luckily I found a branch to hold onto.  It's scary to think how close I came to the chasm.  I reached a point where I could no longer go on in my marriage, because I was destroying myself.  That's when my recovery began.

LuckyJim

[Longterm]

  This is SUCH a good point, and an aspect that those who have not gone through something like this have such a hard time understanding. 
 

Others dont understand. I have been put in no win situations where I have to let someone down. The shame I have felt at having to do this at times has been palpable. I have immediately been jumped on, "look how hes let you down, see how he got in your head? Made you promises knowing full well he wouldn't go through with it? Hes poison, he used to do it to me too, hes controlling and a bully who doesn't care who he hurts". I have read messages like these that have been sent to the kids. Just yesterday I made contact asking her to check birth certificate details, I was polite and brief. I was accused of harassing her, bullying her and "how can you treat your kids like this?" She said shes taking a stand, "no more" she said, it's time people knew the truth and she wont be bullied anymore.
I can literally show you these messages, she clearly wants me to bite, then she can say "look how he talks to a woman? The mother of his kids, hes abusive"

To an outsider she can come across as the nicest person you could ever meet yet shes not. This is how family/friends/children become alienated and hate the non. They are so believable at times and can easily pull the wool over your eyes. Support groups like bpdfamily and therapists are so important in helping the non to centre themselves, to understand they are not insane and are indeed victims of abuse.

I will be back, work is hectic right now.

LT.

[Longterm]

  Her post break smear campaign made things worse - because while I was reeling and still blaming myself, she was running around blaming me for all sorts of outlandish allegations. And even though they were patently false on the surface, I would still doubt my own reality and wonder if I had gotten it all wrong? For example, she devolved terribly and even began saying that I had "followed" her to NY and she had to get a restraining order - even though two weeks before our break she was demanding we see each other before christmas, and giving me christmas gifts, wanting to spend the night and telling me she loved me. Yet somehow, I really began to question myself as to whether I actually had followed her to NY and she didn't want me here. The manipulation is insane. 

The gifts and "love yous" only further confuse you. I see exactly what you are trying to convey. The questioning of ones own reality is truly unfair but an unfortunate by product of the abuse cycle. I have often questioned if I am insane and am unaware of the things I say and do, I have even asked people if everybody sees it but me and do I need to seek help? Am I a danger to others and myself?

  A year into the relationship, I realized I was reacting angrily and saying mean things in response. I didn't like that about myself, so I checked into therapy to work on those issues.

You were losing yourself, recognized it and fought back. A very mature response from you in seeking help.

 
I stopped reacting in that way, but her abusive comments and actions continued, and even got worse. 

Extinction bursts that are often seen once the non modifies their own behaviour. The abuse becomes more evident as you are literally not doing anything to damage the relationship. The disruption of the status quo leads to these bursts, they do not want you to be in control of yourself, or to stand up for yourself. Their behaviour is increasingly more abusive as your goaded into an abusive reaction.

  Now why I put up with that for three more years is a separate issue, but just isolating that I had the self-awareness to work on my own behavior that I didn't like - yet she continued to blame me for everything...it doesn't get any clearer than that as to who was the controlling abuser.

The truth, honor it. They always out themselves to you eventually, by this time they have fresh enablers and "yes" men/women. You will never be understood and they will never be held accountable.

I have not spoke to you in a while gizmo7247, I hope your healing is going well 

Hi Lucky Jim

They probably saved my life, which sounds melodramatic but is not.
 

It's not no. When you dont know who you are anymore, it's scary. I believe the healing process is about reconnecting with ones self. What do I stand for? What defines me? What are my boundaries? What do I want moving forward? How do I get there? What did I contribute? What must change for my morals/boundaries to align?

   I was drowning in the BPD River, heading for the Falls.
Luckily I found a branch to hold onto.  It's scary to think how close I came to the chasm.  I reached a point where I could no longer go on in my marriage, because I was destroying myself.  That's when my recovery began.

I came close too, several times. We fought back though didn't we? We did not allow it to beat us. I think it's TRUE what others have said, we ARE stronger than we think.

LT

[Lucky Jim]

I believe the healing process is about reconnecting with ones self. What do I stand for? What defines me? What are my boundaries? What do I want moving forward? How do I get there? What did I contribute? What must change for my morals/boundaries to align?

Right, Longterm.  I agree.  I pretended a lot in my marriage to my BPDxW.  No more.  I made a decision to be authentic from here on out.  I listen to my gut feelings.  I strive to follow Nietzsche's advice: "Become who you are"!  I pay attention to small desires, the "golden threads" that connect me to my deepest self.  I had to learn to love and accept myself again, which sounds easy but is pretty hard for us Nons.  Hey, we're human!  I accept my shortcomings as part of who I am.  My task, as I understand it, is never to allow myself to become the object of anyone's abuse again.  That's my boundary.

I was naive.  I'm loyal, but my loyalty was misplaced with a persecutor.  There's nothing noble about putting up with abuse!

We fought back though didn't we? We did not allow it to beat us. I think it's TRUE what others have said, we ARE stronger than we think.

Right.  Going through the BPD crucible forced me to marshall my inner resources.  I'm a lot stronger and more confident in the aftermath of marriage to a pwBPD.  I know myself better!

At the end of the day, I'm happier, which is what it's all about, right?

LJ

[gizmo7247]

Others dont understand. I have been put in no win situations where I have to let someone down. The shame I have felt at having to do this at times has been palpable. I have immediately been jumped on, "look how hes let you down, see how he got in your head? Made you promises knowing full well he wouldn't go through with it? Hes poison, he used to do it to me too, hes controlling and a bully who doesn't care who he hurts". I have read messages like these that have been sent to the kids. Just yesterday I made contact asking her to check birth certificate details, I was polite and brief. I was accused of harassing her, bullying her and "how can you treat your kids like this?" She said shes taking a stand, "no more" she said, it's time people knew the truth and she wont be bullied anymore.
I can literally show you these messages, she clearly wants me to bite, then she can say "look how he talks to a woman? The mother of his kids, hes abusive"

To an outsider she can come across as the nicest person you could ever meet yet shes not. This is how family/friends/children become alienated and hate the non. They are so believable at times and can easily pull the wool over your eyes. Support groups like bpdfamily and therapists are so important in helping the non to centre themselves, to understand they are not insane and are indeed victims of abuse.

I will be back, work is hectic right now.

LT.

Hi LT! It has been a long time! The recovery has been up and down, but has come a long way. Hope you're doing well too!

Wow this hit so home for me. To the casual observer or passerby, she's a sweet innocent person. It's perhaps one of the most frustrating aspects of it all. Her fake persona and no-conscious approach to outlandish lies makes one incredibly damaging combination.

Literally two nights ago I was told that former colleagues of mine were warning others that I'm "mentally unstable" and had a "restraining order placed on me because I followed my ex up to NY." It's so frustrating because I know there's no winning in engaging to set the record straight, but it also sucks that my name is being slandered - particularly by lies that are so far outside of reality. My T said she wasn't surprised though, this is what Borderlines do - she said they're filled with rage, and look for people to commiserate their rage with.

It's been 11 months. I can't believe it continues. I keep praying she'll find her next boyfriend or favorite person to obsess about, so she'll stop obsessing (and talking) about me.

I told my T yesterday that my ex literally disgusts me now. Not just as a person, but physically and every other aspect. I am truly disgusted by her. My T said it's good progress, anger is a stage in the process - and it's far better than being in the sad stage.

I relate to your other points too. After the breakup, I went to my former T and kept asking him if I had a personality disorder? That's how turned around I was. My T smirked, chuckled and kept telling me, "absolutely not."

I was lucky. My ex wanted to see him with me (in an attempt to triangulate and turn him against me too), but my T was very good. At the end of the day, no matter what lies she tells the casual observer or passerby - there's only one mental health professional (and really only one 3rd party) who sat with the both of us for hours as we talked through all of what was going on in the relationship. He was also talking to her longtime therapist.

His disclosures and explanation of "who" she was is what anchored me through all of the craziness during, and elevated craziness after, the relationship.

Side note - after the sessions with my therapist didn't go as she planned, she literally split on her own therapist, painted her black and never went to see her again.

As my current T tells me - "could you have been better? yes, and you took steps to be better. But the reality is that you were being manipulated, emotionally abused and frankly brainwashed. You were being pushed to your limits constantly, so you shouldn't be so hard on yourself for lashing back out."

I think what's lost in this thread about reactive abuse is the subsequently damaging invalidation. I didn't get angry for no reason. She would cheat, hurt, lash out or do something incredibly demeaning - I would respond angrily (in that first year) - and then it would become all about accusing me of being abusive because of my reaction.

I remember how many times I would say, "you're right, my reaction was wrong. But I had a valid reason for reacting - can we discuss that?"

Of course we never could - and in effect what it conditioned me into thinking was that my feelings, my hurt, everything I was going through simply didn't matter.

In hindsight - that is perhaps one of the most damaging and destructive components of "reactive abuse."

[Longterm]

Hi LT! It has been a long time! The recovery has been up and down, but has come a long way. Hope you're doing well too! 
 

I am glad to hear you are getting there. Up and down here too, therapy is more about my FOO these days, I do feel stronger though.

As my current T tells me - "could you have been better? yes, and you took steps to be better. But the reality is that you were being manipulated, emotionally abused and frankly brainwashed. You were being pushed to your limits constantly, so you shouldn't be so hard on yourself for lashing back out." 
 

Pretty much what my T said to me. There has to be a reaction though, they have to have something on you to try and justify their behaviour. I think this is why those who do not have as many wounds/issues quickly bail out of these relationships, they dont react, they simply walk away. Those that stick around such as me are already conditioned before we meet them, we put up with it and will sometimes bite back, then become a doormat to get back to the "good" times, to prove we are not abusive while blatantly being abused. We play our part in this reactive abuse for sure, I think this is why the emphasis is put on helping ourselves.

  I think what's lost in this thread about reactive abuse is the subsequently damaging invalidation. I didn't get angry for no reason. She would cheat, hurt, lash out or do something incredibly demeaning - I would respond angrily (in that first year) - and then it would become all about accusing me of being abusive because of my reaction.

I remember how many times I would say, "you're right, my reaction was wrong. But I had a valid reason for reacting - can we discuss that?"

Definitely yes, a lot (myself included) come here and have been treated In appalling ways. I lost it with my ex in the summer over the phone big time, my friends could hear me from several football fields away. Looking back, was i justified in being angry and upset? I think so, my ex was treating my son poorly and was planning to move into a sex offenders house with him, anybody would be angry right? It really bugs me how she got that reaction out of me because I was abusive to her over the phone. It was abusive, plain and simple. I have to own that and think of ways to modify my behaviour in any future confrontations. Just because she is being abusive it doesn't give me the right to be, I am better than that, I let myself down, it is not who I am.

Of course we never could - and in effect what it conditioned me into thinking was that my feelings, my hurt, everything I was going through simply didn't matter. 

In hindsight - that is perhaps one of the most damaging and destructive components of "reactive abuse." 
 

You switch off your own needs and wants, the manipulation is insidious at times, it is tragic, reducing people to rubble.

LT.

[Harri]

Just reading through the responses here has been interesting and has helped me understand some of the reactions I used to have.  For example, my ex used to tell me all the time that his behavior did not occur in a vacuum, but apparently mine did as he was never to blame for anything

I realize now that while our behaviors do not occur in a vacuum we have to be aware of where we go when pushed to our limits.  It may be "reactive abuse", but it is still abuse.  I guess the point is that neither person should be acting in abusive ways.  Looking at the context in which we reacted is important so we can learn what our limits are and take action to not reach those limits.  For me, that is the take away.   

Good discussion here.

[Longterm]

 
I realize now that while our behaviors do not occur in a vacuum we have to be aware of where we go when pushed to our limits.  It may be "reactive abuse", but it is still abuse.  I guess the point is that neither person should be acting in abusive ways.  Looking at the context in which we reacted is important so we can learn what our limits are and take action to not reach those limits.  For me, that is the take away.   
 

Nailed it.

We cannot grow without taking accountability for our actions, moving forward we need to take responsibility for the choices we make. We can all blame the pwBPD but our reactive abuse is also a problem.

LT.

[formflier]

We cannot grow without taking accountability for our actions, moving forward we need to take responsibility for the choices we make. We can all blame the pwBPD but our reactive abuse is also a problem.

LT,

A very wise observation. 

I also found it empowering to focus on my own reactions/problems.  As long as "it was my pwBPD's fault" I handed my power to someone else.  Once my own stuff was my own stuff (even if someone else had "triggered" it)...I kept all the power to myself.

This made a big improvement on how I looked at the world.

Best,

FF

[gizmo7247]

Nailed it.

We cannot grow without taking accountability for our actions, moving forward we need to take responsibility for the choices we make. We can all blame the pwBPD but our reactive abuse is also a problem.

LT.

Perfectly said. This right here is exactly why I went into therapy after year one - the only control I have is what I do and what comes out of my mouth. I ALWAYS have a choice in how I respond, and I didn't like how I was responding - and sought help. I have grown tremendously since because of my work in therapy.

I also think this is the key differentiation between us and those w/BPD (or any cluster b). Accountability and taking responsibility for our actions require self-awareness, something those w/BPD lack. Which is why we can reflect, hold ourselves accountable and learn, grow and mature from these experiences.

It's because of that lack of self-awareness and accountability that those w/BPD end up repeating the same cycles and never growing.

[Lucky Jim]

I also found it empowering to focus on my own reactions/problems.  As long as "it was my pwBPD's fault" I handed my power to someone else.  Once my own stuff was my own stuff (even if someone else had "triggered" it)...I kept all the power to myself.

You nailed it, formflier.  With power comes the ability to change, which was the start of my recovery.

LJ

[Cat Familiar]

I really enjoy having the power to control my own responses, rather than being subject to someone else’s mood shifts.

There’s a positive arrogance there—“That’s your best shot? You can’t bring me down!” (Self talk. I would never say that out loud.)

[formflier]

There’s a positive arrogance there—

That's a neat phrase.  I'm going to file that away and perhaps use it some day.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

In domestic dispute situations, sometimes both partners engage in violence. Sometimes the police get called and if they cannot determine that one person was the "primary aggressor" and the other was merely defending, guess what? They both go to jail. Why? because another person pushing us to our limits does not absolve us of behavior that breaks the law, such as assaulting another person, even if the assault was in retaliation.

This principle is also true even if our actions or reactions do not include physical retaliation. Is it abuse if we react poorly and behave in ways similar to the abusive partner? I think that it may be accurate to call it "behaving abusively". "To abuse" means to mistreat or misuse something or someone.

We have to own our reactions. Yes, it is understandable. In a DV relationship, there is one partner who holds the majority of power in the relationship. I would not say that one partner is the only one who instigates all the problems, or that abusers consciously rely on the other person's loss of control in response to abuse as a tactic to justify our deflect from the abuser's abusive behavior. I think it is probably more of a maladaptive defense against owning responsibility for abusive behavior. To me, saying that "abusers do this and rely on it" is overgeneralization of "abusers". There is conflict in any relationship, abusive or not, healthy or not. It may be more accurate to say that a person who engages in domestic violence (an "abuser") has a dominating style of approach to conflict, and the partner with lower power has either an obliging style, avoidant style, or a combination of both. A dominating style of approaching conflict always has a destructive impact on the relationship. Obliging and avoiding styles have a place in constructive conflict resolution, but when used inappropriately they actually fuel the conflict. The person with lower power in the relationship will eventually resent their low power status and resentment will build.

The dynamics of an abusive relationship are complex, and whether it is difficult to accept or not, both partners contribute in their respective ways. This is not to blame abuse victims or absolve abusers of responsibility, I just believe that it is imperative to understand the part I played in my abusive relationship so I can prevent myself from repeating the pattern with someone else. Two DV relationships in twenty years is quite enough for me, thank you.

[Cromwell]

I dont even give it the quality of validating it as a term "reactive abuse"

since when did "self defence" become abuse of any variant.

in any event, the most I ever did to a lot of heavy provocation that kept escalating incrementally, was to let off steam by way of a light sarcastic response. I actually had the patience of a saint through this. The reason I ended it was because a line was getting close to being crossed and I was towards the end of my mental tether at keeping 3 years of it under control.

"abuse" requires two parties to make it work. "the abused", "the abuser". A relationship.

It is the beauty of no-contact, the day I did it, the relationship was finished along with all these various forms of hierarchy. There was also no need anymore for defending onself, for there was no longer an "attacker".

well to narrow in to answer the question - it is not a get out clause to call it reactive abuse because of a response initiated by abuse. Not as free thinking, autonomous human beings. I proved through this that I couldnt be provoked - assuming this was at times the motive.

I agree with what was said earlier though - the more specific you can share fine details of what you mean, the more helpful it might be to find understanding. This is why my answer can only be made in the broadest sense.

My ex abused me with vile insults - verbal abuse. If I was to break her jaw in response do I just then sit back and say she deserved it no matter what she claims I am in the wrong, she instigated it and provoked the outcome after all, so surely the blame must fall upon her?

Too simplistic, and it doesnt work.

All that works is first line of defence - leave if you have been abused. I learned to walk, I suspect most of those reading this also have done so - use it. I use many skills learned as a toddler, still today. They are more refined but still, the key outcomes are the same.

reactive abuse? I can undertand someonegetting to the stage of "losing it" by their choice to endure a relationship of abuse to long. For the main ofwhat I haveseen here, people choose to stay for longer than they need to and incrementally worsen their self esteem ,health and predicament until it really gets bad.

at what point is it fair to then lash out and blame the other as coining it "reactive abuse"? how long was it from the -first- abuse to the "retaliation"?

if we are talking days weeks months, years, then no - I dont feel it is a justified term as much as it is a wooly excuse for not walking away earlier when the opportunity was there.