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Dnmtnbkr

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« on: November 18, 2019, 11:47:31 AM »

Hello, I am in a place of sadness and confusion. I need to speak with people that may be in a similar place. I believe my wife has BPD traits, maybe not a full blown diagnosable case of BPD, maybe on a spectrum if there is one. I don't know and I don't really care about labels. She has been diagnosed recently with PTSD and is currently working with a doctor that specializes in traumas. I feel there is more to her behaviors that PTSD. Our house is in a constant state of chaos, everybody walking on eggshells to avoid being criticized or worse her getting into a rage and shaming or guilt tripping us. Me and my wife have three small children (ages 2,4,7). I love her and want to help. I recently went out on a limb and spoke with her doctor briefly about a possibly of BPD or traits showing up in our relationship. I hope I was heard. She believes that there are overlapping traits of PTSD and BPD. Maybe there is. From what I know of BPD the emotional regulation, rage, depression, and irrational thoughts are just too overwhelming to simply be PTSD.  I have committed myself to staying in this relationship for her and the children, reading books to help me cope with someone with PTSD and PBD traits. But sometimes it is so much for me, the rage, name calling, character attacks and the irrational verbal abuse. The recent example I have that has brought me to this point of confusion was last week. Things between us were going good for several days. I came home from work and she had a rough day with the kids. After dinner she said she needed to lay down and rest in bed, I said no problem and played with the kids for an hour. I went in to check on her and asked if she was reading a book, she responded with a blunt 'yes' and nothing else so I left to give her more space/time. About 45 minutes later I was showering the kids and getting them ready for bed and I asked for her help. And that is when everything became unglued. She was enraged that I was criticizing her for laying in bed and not helping with the kids. That I spoke to her rudely, condescending and pass-agressively emotionally abusing her. I have actually been accused of emotional abuse and gaslighting her for 3 years now. In my heart of heart I am not doing these things, but it makes me crazy thinking about what if I am. I have seen a professional councilor and they believe I am not. I try and apologize to my wife for what I do take responsibility for, and put up a boundary of not apologizing for what I know to not be doing/saying wrong. But it is a lonely place to be in. I'm embarrassed to talk with my friends, and don't want to burden them. I would love to be accepted into this community so I can learn more and find support. Thank you for being there
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missyou

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« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2019, 12:31:28 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)  Dnmtnbkr,
You are not alone.
 I just wanted to let you know I understand how you are feeling and I have had similar experiences with my upwBPD.    I am sorry that you are going through this - it must be incredibly difficult especially with 3 young children to take care of as well as looking after your wife.
I am relatively new to " the family" but I have found it so helpful and has been a lifeline when I felt like I was sinking in the confusion of living with someone with a personality disorder.
You will find good tools on the site and lots of compassionate  people who have/had the same experiences as you do. 
I find it helpful to read as much info as possible and when you are comfortable sharing what is going on in your world and  to post about what is happening in your world to get another persons perspective or insight. 
Take care
MY
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Ozzie101
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« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2019, 12:34:21 PM »

Hello and welcome, Dnmtnbkr!

You've landed in a good place. We understand what you're dealing with. We've been through it or are still going through it ourselves and we have a lot of advice and support to share.

That's good you've been trying to learn more about BPD. I did the same thing -- reading books and then the resources here. So much was eye-opening to me. I still remember reading Stop Walking on Eggshells and then coming here and reading the threads and feeling such a sense of relief and awe: I wasn't alone. This happened to other people.

One thing that really has helped me is learning more about BPD and thought patterns. In some ways, it's like learning a new language. What I say (or think I say) isn't always how it comes across.

For instance, in your example, you asked if she was reading a book. Simple. But, what she might have heard was "You're reading a book? I'm doing all this taking care of the kids and you're just being useless and worthless and lazy." Not what you intended at all, I'm sure. Yet, with BPD, our words can get twisted. If she was feeling stressed and overwhelmed already, she was going to take anything you said as criticism.

Make sense?

Now, I'm not saying all that to tell you the blow-up was your fault. Not at all. But I know from experience that sometimes it helps to look back on an incident and try to figure out the how and why.

You say you feel like you can't share with your friends. I can understand that. But are you able to spend time with friends or family? Any hobbies? Anything that builds you up? Self-care is vital in keeping us going.

I hope you'll tell us more when you're ready. We're here to help!
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Dnmtnbkr

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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2019, 02:01:11 PM »

MissYou and Ozzie, Thank you so much for the messages and the thoughts. I was overwhelmed as I read the posts, and a few tears may have come out of me. When I read the words "the family" it felt amazing, like there are actually people that know what I am going through, and are dealing with the same things, and they will be there for me. I have been thinking I was going crazy the last several years. So thank you, thank you thank you.

I read "Loving someone with BPD" and it was good, I learned a lot of advise and how to deal with my spouse. I am reading "Walking on Eggshells" now, and I feel that book is much better for me. I am committing myself to this  bpdfamily messge board, and I feel these resources will give me so much strength to understand this BPD thing and get me on track.

Ozzie, your "new language" analogy I think is spot on. The BPD language is completely 180 degrees from ours, but it is their reality. So if we choose to stay with our partner we need to learn their language and communicate with them with that in mind. But, of course, not use their exact language.

I do know what you mean by how they turn our words around to feel criticized. That is exactly it. No matter how good my intention is or how I say my words, they can get turned around and the absolute worst is taken from my good intention. I used to engage these feelings from my wife and defend myself, that this is not what I meant. My defense would only enrage her more, cause more crazy outbursts. I am learning to not engage or how to engage properly.

I do have outside the home hobbies, great friends, and other things to fill me up and keep me going. Thank you for that, I started taking care of myself 3-4 months ago and it completely empowered me to better handle myself and my wife (before I knew of the BPD thingy) I do not want to tell all my friends about the BPD thing. I do not want to burden a friend with a crazy problem that I feel they will have difficulty understanding.

Do you feel also that no-one can understand living with a BPD person unless you have to live with this? I have trouble describing how an outburst happens, how it gets so crazy so fast. To put it into words makes me feel crazy and just complaining about my wife.

Again thank you, and I think I'm going to love my "new family"
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Ozzie101
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2019, 02:17:32 PM »

We're certainly glad to have you here -- while being sorry you have to be here, if that makes sense. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

It really is difficult for other people to understand what it's like living with BPD. And you're wise to be careful about what details you share with friends and family. They'd mean well and they care about you, but often, you're likely to get "Run" responses: In other words, being told "Get out of there! Get a divorce!" Well-meant. Unhelpful. I know from experience. In a weak moment, I told my sisters what was going on. Still cleaning up the emotional mess from that. Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

But as you look around here, you'll see that many others have had that "I'm going crazy" feeling. At first, I thought I was at fault. I was just a horrible wife and person in general. Now I know that, while some things I was doing were not helping the situation, it was not all me. There was something far more serious going on.

The good news is, you're in a place where you can tell us what's going on and we'll understand. And we can even give tips and pointers on how you might start to make things better (or at least stop unintentionally making them worse).

You're reading Walking on Eggshells. Have you come across any tips or tools that sound, to you, like they might be very useful in your situation?
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Dnmtnbkr

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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2019, 04:02:05 PM »

"RUN" yep, that seems to be the stigma around BPD, especially if you are married to one, because you can just run, unlike if it is a family member and you can't get away. For now, just simply having a community where people understand me is all I need to at least validate my feelings and situation. Now I can learn and grow from here. It seems the next step is to learn how to interact with my wife to avoid, or lessen, the episodes. I have a lot of BPDFmily message boards to read over.

"Walking on Eggshells" is like a firehose of information, Definitely be reading it twice. What I learned from "Loving Someone with BPD" my biggest takeaway was to validate their feelings but be clear on my boundaries. The book gave a great list of the rules of engagement.

Ozzie, what is your best tip on communicating with your H, during an outburst, where you are being attacked? (If you don't mind answering)
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Forgiveness
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2019, 07:35:05 PM »

Hi Dnmtnbkr,

I was with my girlfriend for 18 months and we didn't live together. It's a much different situation from yours yet your wife's behavior seems very familiar to me. It's almost exactly what my girlfriend said to me at one time (except it wasn't about kids, it was that she was reading a book and assumed I was mad at her for this).

It's not PTSD vs BPD. It's more like, PTSD can lead to BPD or more accurately childhood trauma can lead to BPD. But even this is not completely clear. Treatment for PTSD will not cure BPD but it won't hurt. It's probably good for her.

Anyhow, the labels don't matter except that it's validating to know that there is a certain pattern that professionals have noticed and studied. At least that's how I felt. It made me feel less alone.

Good for you for researching and seeking help. Many here have had very similar experiences.

One thing I will add is that at some point I did decide to tell all my friends exactly what was going on, and they were super supportive without ganging up on her or trashing her in the way I feared they would. It was good for me to talk.
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Dnmtnbkr

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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2019, 09:23:49 PM »

Hey Forgiveness,  Thank you so much for reaching out and sharing your thoughts. This info is a big help for me. I appreciate what you said about the PTSD triggering the PBD characteristics. I am looking back on the many episodes she has experienced and most of them is when she is already under some stress (rough day, tired, kid drama) then there is something small that I do and then  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) hits the fan. It feels to me like her nervous system is running high, trigger happens, and then it shuts down her logical emotional part of the brain, and BPD takes over. During the BPD episode, as she's expressing her anger towards me, I look into her eyes, and its not her. It's not her normal self that's talking to me. My wife has expressed this to me several times, when she is in her normal, calm self, and describes her anger like being out of body. How scary must that feel for her.

I'm the easiest person for her to release on. The one you love the most, right? She trusts me(or something) that she can let it all out on.

@Forgiveness I'm glad to hear that your friends were able to be supportive for you and your girlfriend. It sounds like you waited a bit. And I'm feeling for right now that I will wait too. I have told a councilor I see periodically and one close friend, so at least someone close to me knows. Besides being a heavy subject matter to share with someone, I feel it is a very personal matter, that I would be breaking her trust to share. Most of our friends are friends in common, and I just don't feel good about sharing unless absolutely necessary.

However my ego is wanting me to tell our friends, as she tells them that I emotionally abuse and gaslight her. That is another part of this craziness. It is so hard on me for friends/family to think I abuse my wife, when in actuality the roles are reversed, and I have to be the one who can't say anything, stay grounded in the mist of the violent anger storm, and hold space and love for my wife. But I do believe it to be in everyones best interest to keep it to myself. Thoughts on welcome on this subject and curious if anyone else has dealt with this.

So again, I can not express my gratitude for this group and everyone who reaches out to help each other. Thank you
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Ozzie101
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2019, 07:59:48 AM »

One thing my therapist told me was that it was valuable to have someone to confide in, but that I should choose that person carefully: Someone trustworthy, nonjudgemental (in other words, wouldn't tell me to run or wouldn't attack my H), a good listener, supportive. As I said, in a weak moment, I told my sisters. Mistake. My parents, though, have been the perfect confidantes, as I knew they would be. So, when you tell, it's a good idea to really carefully consider the person you're about to talk to. If you have reservations about telling someone, don't tell them -- at least not yet. Listen to your gut.

Excerpt
During the BPD episode, as she's expressing her anger towards me, I look into her eyes, and its not her.

I know what you mean. That was actually a "lightbulb moment" for me in dealing with my H, when I realized something really was not right. It was like he wasn't really there anymore. At that moment, it was like I was looking into the eyes of a frightened toddler, oddly enough. Terrifying, and yet, enlightening.

Boundaries and validation are very important, you're right. And we have a lot of info on both if you read around here.

Excerpt
Ozzie, what is your best tip on communicating with your H, during an outburst, where you are being attacked? (If you don't mind answering)

I don't mind at all. I'm an open book so always ask anything you like. Being cool (click to insert in post)
One thing I've learned here is that once an outburst is underway, most of the tools like validation and SET don't really work. They're more for before or after the outburst and in general life to just get things on an even keel. I hate to keep bringing up the toddler analogy since it seems kind of disrespectful to these adults, but imagine a very small child having a total meltdown. That's not the time to have a discussion with them about their behavior or about why they can't have a fifth cookie. They're not going to hear or really take in anything you say when they're in that state. In fact, they might twist what you say to attack you.

SET and other tools are best, as I said, for regular life. The goal is to head the meltdowns off at the pass. That's not always possible. But, I've learned to spot the warning signs with my H, usually subtle things about his body language and mood. In those cases, I focus on myself and staying calm and in control. I don't argue with him. I don't JADE. I will validate if it seems necessary, but I keep it brief.

As I was told, the key is to try to stop them or to remove yourself right after they start. I'm afraid that's a skill I still haven't mastered. But my H has been on much firmer ground lately, so I haven't really had many chances to practice. Have you tried exiting? If so, what did you do? Did it work? If you haven't tried, do you have any ideas on how you might do it?
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Dnmtnbkr

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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2019, 11:26:52 AM »

Hey Ozzie, Hope you are doing good today.

Thanks for your question. I'm assuming "exiting" is exiting the argument, not the relationship. haha. But what I am doing now during the peak of the episode is to stay anchored and mindful during the rage, say almost nothing, maybe nod my head yes to let her know that I am with her. Then just let it pass, when she starts to slow down I try and say one validating sentence, like " I see what I said or did really upset you". If she presses me on an issue like " what you said was criticizing me", I will say "No, that is not what I meant and was not my intention." And then I will try and move along to doing something. Like " Well I am glad you told me your feelings, I really need to go fix the toilet now."

Sometimes when the episodes are bad and the character attacks come out, that is when I get triggered. Recently it was "I can't believe you would endanger our kids(S6) by letting him drive in a friends car." I have learned to walk away, I say "I am feeling really upset right now and I can't engage with you, I need space, maybe we can talk later" and I walk away.

I used to engage, especially during the character attacks. It is a true statement that my W is extremely good at knowing what pushes my buttons. I would (and sometimes still do) defend my position and tell my side of the story. It would turn to a complete disaster. Just pouring fuel on the fire. She says very harmful, accusing statements that she knows I can not resist defending. This is actually how I started realizing BPD traits, when I was able to remain calm and unattached to the argument, I could see clearly the manipulation/emotional attacks.

But I do want to learn more about the JADE and SET, that I have read about here. I'll be looking into those the next few days.

What has really helped me the most with this challenging relationship with my W, is holding me as the priority. Having my passion and purpose be what drives me. Having hobbies, exercising and focusing my mind on those, sometimes even pretending to have other things as a priority during an episode, like the toilet repair. This helps with my minor co-dependency issue and keeps me not going down the rabbit hole.

Good chatting/venting with you Ozzie, have a good one
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Ozzie101
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2019, 12:15:19 PM »

Thanks for your question. I'm assuming "exiting" is exiting the argument, not the relationship. haha.

Yes! Love it! (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
But what I am doing now during the peak of the episode is to stay anchored and mindful during the rage, say almost nothing, maybe nod my head yes to let her know that I am with her. Then just let it pass, when she starts to slow down I try and say one validating sentence, like " I see what I said or did really upset you".

Sometimes that's the best thing you can do -- just be present and let the storm blow on over.

Also good to walk away when you feel yourself getting triggered. When you're both triggered -- well, nothing good can come out of that situation. And saying you're upset and will talk about it later is a good move. Letting them know you're coming back is particularly important since often times, the pwBPD has major abandonment issues. Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
If she presses me on an issue like " what you said was criticizing me", I will say "No, that is not what I meant and was not my intention."

Not to nit-pick, but this statement tips into some JADE territory. Just talking things through to look at communication styles here. What would you think about, in your example, saying:
"I see what I said or did really upset you."
If she presses, "I get it. It's really frustrating and painful when I feel like someone is criticizing me." (Note how you're not admitting you criticized, but you are validating her feelings?)
Then going on to exit the situation with an "I'm glad you shared how you feel. That's a lot to think about. I'm going to go take care of some chores while I mull it over."
Again, I'm not trying to script-write your life. Just throwing out some conversational alternatives. Subtle things can make a difference.
What do you think?

I'd encourage reading up on JADE and SET -- very helpful and eye-opening for me.
These workshops have a lot of good info:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0
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Dnmtnbkr

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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2019, 12:29:36 PM »

Perfect Ozzie, I appreciate the feedback from a veteran. I see your point of what I would say bordering on the JADE response. Defending is so natural to me, put I need to practice this, A LOT. Thanks for the links and advise, I will read over those tonight.
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2019, 10:25:29 PM »

Well my situation took a turn for the worse, and I am mostly to blame. I just did a stupid thing. I feel the PBDFamily will hopefully understand this crazy thing, probably the only people that truly can. It will help me to write it out, hope it can help you, so here goes. It's my own Shakespearin tragedy.

So about 4 weeks ago, I was playing with my three kids, dancing and listening to music after I got home from work. My youngest two year old daughter is going through a phase where she rubs her pelvic on things because it probably feels good to her, we take it as her exploring her body in a healthy way. I don't need to get into details here, but my uBPD wife walks by and sees me near my daughter and thought I was contributing to her 'exploring' her body. I was not doing ANYTHING inappropriate, but it understandably triggered my wife. My wife has childhood trauma from sexual abuse from her dad. I immediately got anxious and scared, my wife did a reasonable job keeping calm. I stressed to her that I was not doing anything inappropriate and asked if we could finish the conversation after the kids went to bed. She agreed.

It was about 30 minutes later, I put two kids to bed and I went outside where my wife and I were going to talk. During those 30 minutes, my mind was racing, I was so scared of being accused of sexually abusing our daughter. I have been accused of so many outlandish things from my wife, but not sexual abusing our children yet. During our relationship I have always worried that one day she would accuse me of sexual abuse. I know my wife's history and she is hyper controlling around protecting our kids from sexual assault. And I agree with this and support her 100%. I was just out of controlled scared that this was going to be it, I would get accused of sexual abuse and she and the kids would leave. My word against a mothers and I was not going to come out of this one. So I had the stupid idea of recording our conversation.

I used my phone as the recorder. My wife came out from putting our two year old to bed and the conversation began. I was a stressed mess. I let her start the conversation to see what she needed to talk about. Surprising to me, she brought up another conversation around something I said that was taken the wrong way. This was our regular high energy, angry fighting. But this time I decided to take the offense. I hit it head on, I asked why when I say something simple and normal, it is taken as I'm criticizing and shaming you. But when you talk to me disrespectfully and I ask if you can talk to me better, then I'm making it up and trying to pick a fight, which turns into irrational rage on her part. I was fed up with how I was being treated. I have taken so many years of this, and I could not take being accused of sexual abuse. She stayed relatively calm, I was the emotion basket case this time.

The fighting went on for about an hour and a half. We both needed breaks, we weren't going anywhere and I was getting too emotional so we stopped for a few minutes. We didn't even start the conversation about what happened that evening with my daughter and I. I checked my phone, forgot I was recording and pushed stop to end the recording. I was frazzled, I took some deep breaths, gathered myself and was able to continue the conversation in a more calm approach.

Then we started talking about the event that happened that night. She wanted to know why I did what I did. I did not know JADE at the time and pretty much did everything wrong. I defended and explained away. Nothing helped. It got worse and I was doing everything I could to control my anger. We were sitting on the couch and she was in a rage, screaming at me from a foot away, demanding I repeat her exact words about not doing that again. She also made me repeat the words "You do not believe I sexually abused my daughter", meaning she wanted me to know that she was not accusing me of sexual abuse. This was a good thing, my wife DID really want me to know that she was not accusing me a sexual abuse. I was already in a point of losing control, and I did lose it. She demanded I repeat a few more sentences. She was bearing down on me, screaming. I was clinched, every muscle was tense, my fists were in balls, I was shaking, it was taking everything I could from not lashing out at my wife. I asked for space, to leave me alone for a minute and she wouldn't. I have never lost my control like that, it was not my best moment.

After I repeated all her words, she let me go. The conversation was over, we took some deep breathes and we were done for the night. I went to bed.

Fast forward to now. To my astonishment, my wife told me last night that she knows about the recording. She says she checked my phone the next day because of women's intuition and found the recording, but it was only the first half. She thought it was shady that I recorded the fight, I really wouldn't disagree with her. I did apologize for that. I had forgotten I recorded it and never listened to it. She forwarded the recording to her counselor, but this is only the first half, the half that I was a jerk and out of control. I listened to the recording last night for the first time as I went to bed and I couldn't even finish it. I couldn't stand to listen to myself, I was a  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post),. It was 2am but I woke my wife up and apologized to her, I was so sad I had talked to my wife like that. The very thing that I hate that she has done to me all these years. Here I am emotionally out of control.

And to make matters worse, her counselor listened to every minute of the fight. Her counselor is working with her on her PTSD. Two weeks ago, I took a risk and spoke with her counselor that I felt there may be a possibility that my wife could have BPD traits. I have never seen this counselor, she doesn't know anything about me. Now I feel she just thinks I am the typical toxic male, saying its my wife that has all the problems, including the stigmatic BPD, when I am actually the abuser.

So here I am, as confused as I have ever been. For most of our married years, before the PTSD and uBPD, I was accused of emotional abusing and gaslighting her, at first I didn't believe it, but after so many years, I questioned myself. And the questioning becomes louder and I start to wonder if I really am, or if I'm going crazy. It seems like such a fine line. And I didn't talk with anyone about it.

So if you are still reading, thank you. It was therapeutic writing this down. I'm going to bed now, and plan on waking up tomorrow to a fresh start. Continuing to learn SET, not talking like a jerk and trying to do better.
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Dnmtnbkr

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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2019, 11:42:23 AM »

 Way to go! (click to insert in post)
I want to shout from a mountain top! I used the SET rules this morning with my uBPDw and it worked! Angry, craziness avoided! I saw it coming, she pointed out something tiny I said, twisting it around, then she combined it and twisted it with something I said last week. Calm, cool, validated, empathy, truth, then back to my purpose leaving for work. Half day later she was over it and back to normal.

Thank you all, and special high five to Ozzie for your help

 If I can do this you can too
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2019, 11:53:33 AM »

That's great, Dnmtnbkr! Way to go! (click to insert in post) It really is rewarding and encouraging when we try something that works. Now, it won't always work (as I've found) and there will be steps back, but with consistency and patience, you can start to see a gradual improvement. Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Just don't get discouraged.

Other than that, how have things been going this week?
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