It can be exhausting being in a relationship with a pwBPD - Part 3

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341279.0
Here's an example:

H: Your family are horrible people. Don't you agree?
M: You seem really frustrated with them and how they're handling things. What do you do you think we should do about it?
H: See? You're avoiding answering my question. Just admit that your family are all terrible people. But you can't do that, can you? Because you always side with them, no matter what. You never take my side.

He doesn't like to have to explain, which makes him more angry. To him, my not understanding seems to say that I don't "get" him and that we're not on the same page. Or he accuses me of playing dumb so I don't have to, for instance, admit that my family members are horrible.

Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how to disengage. If I tell him something like "I can see that you feel very strongly about this. I really want to work through this with you. I need to take a little time to think about it," his response is to get even more angry and accuse me of thinking only of myself, of not caring, of avoiding dealing with the issues, etc. I've tried doing that and walking away and he inevitably follows me. We've talked about it in calm times and have come up with a safety word and other plans, but when he's upset, all that goes out the window.

[Ozzie101]

This is a continuation of a previous thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341279.0
Here's an example:

H: Your family are horrible people. Don't you agree?
M: You seem really frustrated with them and how they're handling things. What do you do you think we should do about it?
H: See? You're avoiding answering my question. Just admit that your family are all terrible people. But you can't do that, can you? Because you always side with them, no matter what. You never take my side.

He doesn't like to have to explain, which makes him more angry. To him, my not understanding seems to say that I don't "get" him and that we're not on the same page. Or he accuses me of playing dumb so I don't have to, for instance, admit that my family members are horrible.

Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how to disengage. If I tell him something like "I can see that you feel very strongly about this. I really want to work through this with you. I need to take a little time to think about it," his response is to get even more angry and accuse me of thinking only of myself, of not caring, of avoiding dealing with the issues, etc. I've tried doing that and walking away and he inevitably follows me. We've talked about it in calm times and have come up with a safety word and other plans, but when he's upset, all that goes out the window.

[formflier]

Here's an example:

H: Your family are horrible people. Don't you agree?
M: You seem really frustrated with them and how they're handling things. What do you do you think we should do about it?
 

"Oh my.  This is shocking.  (pause, perhaps touch his arm lightly).  Let me get us something to drink and then I can focus on understanding."

give it a few minutes and bring back some water.

"OK, I'm ready to understand.  Has something happened?" 

Keep handing it back to him.  Decline to make a dichotomous choice. 

"I don't think about people that way."

What do you think he is trying to "get" by asking this? 

Has your family been mean to him or to you?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I've used the "I don't think about people that way" before. But that seems to come across as invalidating.

I think there are a number of things going on here.

He's got real issues with family -- his or anyone's. He never clicked with is adoptive parents. He connected with his bio family, only for them to (recently) cut off contact with no warning or explanation. I think, and he'll admit in his calm times, that's he's both jealous of and threatened by my family.

Have they been mean to him? Well, my sisters have said they don't want to be around him. This happened after they found out that he was emotionally and verbally abusive toward me. Though, his attitude about them and wanting me to call them hateful, awful people way predates that. Their finding out was my fault, something I've admitted to and apologized for many times. If I could take it back, I would, and I'm working with my therapist to try to repair that damage. Still, as I said, this lashing out about them and wanting me to turn against them started way before they found out anything was going on. Even now, they were polite, if cool, the last time we were around them.

One sister, who I suspect has BPD or some other PD, has been mean to me in the past. He's never witnessed that.

He also believes that my sisters are hurtful towards his son. We disagree there. They've always been friendly with him. They give him Christmas gifts. They don't have the relationship with him that I have with their kids, which I see as natural, considering they met him when he was almost 6 and they've seen him maybe 10 times since then. When they do see him, he doesn't talk to or interact with them at all, even when they speak to him. So, no, there's no relationship there. But, because they have no relationship with him, I'm not supposed to have a relationship with their kids. That's a regular source of difficulty.

[MidLifCrysis1]

Sorry, Oz.  

Hang in there. Try to take those odd "Negativity-Off" switches that they do as blessings when you can. The fighting is horrible, and even though it's weird how they just turn off all of the vileness and change back to Dr. Jekyll, at least it's a quicker reprieve from the constant hostility and negativity.

Sorry the season isn't a good one for you, too. :-(
We're all here when you need an ear.

And, I have very much the same challenges with talking with my wife. Disengaging, damned for offering and opinion or not offering one, damned for trying to convey understanding or asking for more info in order to understand, etc.. Sometimes it doesn't happen and sometimes it does.

My only consolation is knowing that the way she responds is clearly not in my control or responsibility, even though I have a hand in it and have to deal with it...when it's really irrational, there's simply nothing to be done and really no fault to be found.

Hope that helps some. Good luck!

 - MLC

[hopeandchoices]

Here's an example:

H: Your family are horrible people. Don't you agree?
M: You seem really frustrated with them and how they're handling things. What do you do you think we should do about it?
H: See? You're avoiding answering my question. Just admit that your family are all terrible people. But you can't do that, can you? Because you always side with them, no matter what. You never take my side.

He doesn't like to have to explain, which makes him more angry. To him, my not understanding seems to say that I don't "get" him and that we're not on the same page. Or he accuses me of playing dumb so I don't have to, for instance, admit that my family members are horrible.

I seriously relate to this and I have learned some things recently from this site and books that I am trying to implement, which seem to be working a little bit. One thing that I keep hearing is that in accusations and blame, it's never really about you. In the same way, maybe here it isn't really about your family. Maybe, instead of 'You seem really frustrated with them and how they're handling things.' - which deals with acknowledging the outward emotion and situation, and then immediately moving towards a solution, perhaps you might want to try a really validating response, followed by showing an understanding of the emotions behind the 'frustration' and move on to solutions much later. This might allow him to feel like he can express more, to which again you can respond with validation more, then after all of that leading to a point where maybe you can encourage moving forward with a solution. Your acknowledgement of his frustration is great - but I keep reading that there are always emotions at work beneath the outward situation with pwBPD. Do you know why he thinks your parents are horrible, i.e. has this come up in response to something they've said or done, or is this a totally random thing that you have no idea about? If the former, then perhaps consider why he would feel that way, and really consider both his own fears/pains/past and the situation at hand. Obviously, you can't relate to him thinking your parents are horrible because I assume it's an unfair accusation, but perhaps you can relate to how he's come to that feeling, why he would feel that way? It's amazing what we can empathise with when we take away the outward situation and deal with the root, deep feelings behind it. For instance, a validating response if you know what the situation is might be:

'I get that XYZ [the situation, but taking your family/or the specifics out of the equation e.g. 'if someone responded in that way to me'] would make you feel ABC. I totally get that you're feeling ABC [upset/angry/betrayed/annoyed/whatever he's feeling]. I would probably feel XYZ too if I DID/felt ABC and then XYZ happened.'

That way, you don't have to agree that your family are horrible, you don't even have to bring them specifically up, but you can agree that his feelings are real, and valid, and that you understand them. Because they are real for them. And like we always tell each other, 'it's not about you' with pwBPDs, we have to remember that with other things. Maybe deep down, it's not about your family, it's about some deep painful feelings that he wants and needs to place on to something. Your family is the butt of it right now, but if you can help him express the feelings behind all of that, then maybe you can offer the 'What do you think you want to do about it' solution. I feel like if you offer the solution question straight away, there isn't time for him to sit with and express his feelings, or his true feelings behind the obvious frustration. If we try and get it sorted or fix it, even though we want them to be able to move on from their frustration for their own good, it can feel invalidating to them. I usually acknowledge how my partner seems to be feeling from the way he talks and then I try to rationalise with him and find a solution but this never, ever works for me. So I've changed tactics to what I've discussed above and when I've done this new method over the last couple of days, completely ignoring the details of the situation and worked to really validate his feelings and show him that they're real and okay to express, the conversations go on *slightly* longer and *slightly* less angrily. I wait and give time for him to respond, and because he actually responds a little now rather than just getting angry at me for not listening/understanding, we get somewhere.

Maybe when he says 'Don't you agree?' he really saying 'can you understand why I feel this way?' - you don't have to agree, but if you can think about why he feels that way, and try to understand that, then he's more likely to open up more, and less likely to feel like you're avoiding 'the question'. You don't have to 'take his side' on the matter, but you can be by his side in saying 'look, I get why you feel that way, and that's really tough.' People are more likely to be receptive to disagreement and to possible solutions when they feel their feelings have been validated. It's happening very slightly, and very slowly, but surely with my partner. I hope this makes some sense and maybe it could help a little.

If not - don't worry you can take it all with a pinch of salt - I am still very new to all of this! You are clearly doing so well and it's brilliant that you are able to stay calm when he brings your family up. I am still unable to stop tears rolling down my face even when I am trying to be extra validating, so I have a lot to learn from your composure!

Big love xxx

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, y'all!

Yes, hopeandchoices, that all makes a lot of sense. Thing is, I do understand where he's coming from and have told him as much. But, no, they're not horrible people. The thing is, I know them and I know him. I can see how things they say or do (or don't say) may come across a certain way to him, but I also know them and what they really mean. Tough spot to be in. I'm working on the validation and will continue to try to improve there.

And it does help, MLC. It is amazing how he can just suddenly switch off and be happy and normal again, while i'm still reeling. I've fallen down a bit on disengaging lately. I think it was the onslaught of four nights in a row that wore me down. I'm going to do my best to get back on the horse.

[hopeandchoices]

I totally get ya, Ozzie101. My partner recently hates my parents, although they've only ever tried to do good for him, and have in fact done more than any other parents would do! They've made mistakes, are slowly learning about BPD too, but their intentions are good, and they've gone above and beyond for him - so it really upsets me when he blames and accuses them, says they hate him, and that they've done horrible things that I know they would never do. For now, I try to validate how he feels - honestly, I feel sorry for him, that his upbringing was so neglectful and abusive that he can't accept my parents' love and help - and I keep my opinions on them to myself. Maybe one day when our partners are in a better place, we can share it and they'll be able to see why our families do what they do and that they mean well at heart.

[formflier]

I've used the "I don't think about people that way" before. But that seems to come across as invalidating.

And that's ok if it does invalidate him.  (stick with me for a few)

You aren't talking about his feelings, you are talking about your mind.  If you validate/agree with him that it works in a way that it doesn't, I would argue that's validating the invalid, which is the only thing I'm aware of that is worse than invalidating.

I would venture to guess that tone has a big part in the way you deliver the "that's not how I work" line.

Be very nonchalant.

Perhaps ask him a question first "Are you interested in how I think about my family?"  Unless there is a calm, clear "yes" then don't continue the conversation.

When he accuses you of avoiding, peel the layers back and understand he is attempting to control/manipulate you.  "you must answer when I determine you answer, otherwise I will say xyz"

Another option  "Oh babe, this sounds important!  Listen (soften into him), it sounds like I'm about a done with my family right now as you are.  I'm not going to speak further about it.  Now...can I get you another cup of abc?"

I'm kinda liking the last one because you are "matching" his feelings, but differentiating the action. 

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I think those ideas sound good, FF.

You're right. His accusations are a form of manipulation, whether conscious or not.

And tone means a lot. Many times, I'm able to keep the nonchalant tone going, and that seems to help prevent escalation. That's another place I fell down last week.

[formflier]

My wife still doesn't like "scheduled conversations".

I usually "flip" the logic back on her.

Is this important to you?  (yes)

Then isn't it worth me approaching it when I'm at my best?  (no..I want it right now)

Oh, so it's not that important?  Please clarify...

As a part of all this I "own" my limitations and abilities and offer what I can do.  If she chooses to reject my offer, I've got plenty of other things I can do and I'll trust her to care for her feelings.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Part of the problem that came up last week was that we have different definitions of "support." For my part, I do what I can to help. I listen. If I can't solve the specific problem, I'll do other things. (I can't find him a new job or get his family to talk to him, but I can fix his favorite meal.) For him, though, anything short of what he wants (and usually that's mirroring his feelings) is being unhelpful and unsupportive.

All this is usually when he's upset. When he's in a calm, steadier place, he's far more reasonable.

Your suggestion is very helpful and I'll give that a try.

[formflier]

Yeah, it's tricky to allow them to have their version (definition) and keep your own.  They (pwBPD) generally won't be happy about it, yet if your don't "bend" eventually it will likely burn itself out.

Consistency is the hard thing, because many times they will appear reasonable or there will be a kernel of truth inside a bunch of nonsense.

Good luck on changing the dynamic!

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My husband also has issues about family, which are undoubtedly connected to abandonment issues of BPD. For years, he has expressed how he thinks his sisters don’t think of him as “a real person” or that he’s “not part of the family.”

Like you, I initially tried to get him to talk more about it, thinking that it would help him. But that was counterproductive in that it merely gave legitimacy to his fears.

This is likely a very deepseated issue for your husband and perhaps should only be addressed by a mental health professional.

Perhaps what you can offer is physical support, holding him, listening but saying little.

I found that whatever I added in those endless discussions about his sisters always bit me in the butt. If I criticized them, then he would support them. If I explained that they lead busy lives, then he’d accuse me of being on their side. Far better to nod and hug him and wait for him to change the topic when I didn’t add to the discussion.

[formflier]

I found that whatever I added in those endless discussions about his sisters always bit me in the butt. If I criticized them, then he would support them. If I explained that they lead busy lives, then he’d accuse me of being on their side. Far better to nod and hug him and wait for him to change the topic when I didn’t add to the discussion.

Exactly the same experience.  I could never keep up with if (fill in the blank) was good or bad, so whatever I added was almost always wrong.

Have you ever asked him directly what you can do/say that would be most helpful?

Best,

FF

[MidLifCrysis1]

I could never keep up with if (fill in the blank) was good or bad, so whatever I added was almost always wrong.

AND...exactly the same experience here and here:

My husband wife also has issues about family, which are undoubtedly connected to abandonment issues of BPD. For years, She has expressed how she thinks her sisters siblings don’t think of her as “a real person” or that she’s “not part of the family.”

[Ozzie101]

Really good insight. You're right. Nothing I say ever works.

Seems like I have asked him before what I can do or say. When he's in a reasonable mood, he says "nothing. I need to work through this myself." When he's not, it's that I need to stand up to them (which, to him, means chew them out in a profanity-laced tirade and tell them what horrible people they are).

Most of the time, now, I try to do what you suggested -- sit and say nothing. But, again, we get into trouble when he demands a response. When I won't answer, or try to turn the subject or use validating questions, it becomes my supporting/defending them.

He'll even pull them into unrelated issues -- or create issues where none exist. H is in charge of setting up his company's health insurance for the year. There was an issue with their vision insurance company and doctors not accepting it. My father, an ophthalmologist, is one that doesn't. H had the rep look my dad up just to see. He didn't go too far down the path last night, but an annoyance and stress with insurance led to all doctors are horrible and do dishonest things to get more money and your dad is one of them.

I didn't say anything. But, yeah. That becomes utterly exhausting -- mentally, physically and emotionally.

[formflier]

Really good insight. You're right. Nothing I say ever works.
 

Therefore you should?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Say nothing.

[formflier]

So would this look like silence or would it look/sound like words that "take no side" and essentially say nothing?

Knowing your pwBPD...which of these would likely soothe him more?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Hmm. I would probably have to say something. Complete silence would likely not go over well as he would "fill in the blanks" and assume what I'm thinking and say it for me. Saying something that takes no side might blow up in my face, too, but it would probably be less likely to.

[formflier]

OK, here is where this gets very "individualized" and will likely take quite a bit of trial and error.

I would encourage you to find something that works for you and pay little attention to whether or not it "works" for your pwBPD.  (pause and think about the implications of this)

I'm not suggesting you "don't care" about your pwBPD, but I AM suggesting you are by FAR the primary consideration and he is secondary.

Now..I wonder why FF would make such a big deal about that?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I tend to focus on him: his needs, his moods, his wants. Part of that is how I was raised. I was taught it's good to think of others first. But I've probably taken that too far. I can't control or "manage" him. That's for him to do. By putting my own wants and needs last, resentment eventually starts to build -- which I'm starting to sense in myself.

I have been doing better about that. He's been moving into "wanting to cut people off" territory again. Last year, that made me panicky. This year, I'm taking more of a "well, I'll just let him play that out and see what happens" attitude. So far, he hasn't actually done any of what he threatens to do.

The "selfish" thing is something he used to throw at me a lot and it's starting again -- that I don't care about him or his son, about their feelings and I just focus on myself. Thing is, there is a grain of truth in what he says. I don't want to do anything that will end up hurting me or causing me discomfort. For instance, I don't want to give up my special birthday outings with my sisters' kids, even though my sisters don't do anything for SS8 on his birthday. I see them as separate things.

Yet I feel that he wants me to adopt his attitudes and his sense of right and wrong -- or to do things for him that he doesn't want to do, or take responsibility for his discomfort and moods and solve those for him.

I can't do that. No one can.

[Ray2017]

I've been following along with this thread, and want to say it's been incredibly helpful to me as well.  My H sounds so much like yours, Ozzie, and I feel very similarly to how you describe throughout.  My H has been starting to dysregulate regularly (after a decent stretch of time - 2ish weeks), with some rage thrown in.  It's also mainly directed at my dad (who was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and started chemo two weeks ago).  If his rage was directed at anyone else - even me! - I think I would be able to cope with it better.  But I'm especially rundown emotionally and over the weekend I heartily struggled (and failed) with being validating and not JADE-ing.  I also was taught to always putting others first, and since I value peace more than just about anything, I end up giving into the bottomless pit that is my H's emotional needs, hoping for peace myself.  I know I have to break that pattern, but I haven't gotten to how exactly I do that yet.  The same trap gets me - say nothing, and I don't care.  Or, give my opinion (via SET when I'm cautious/remember), and I'm supporting the other person.  It's helped to know others struggle with this exact thing, and to read the very sound advice given.  I have nothing really to offer in the way of advice, Ozzie, but know you're not alone on this particular struggle bus.  I hope we find our way off to more peaceful pastures soon.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, Ray, and I'm so sorry about your father.

We're all in this together.

[Cat Familiar]

Ray, I too am sorry about your dad.  

Here’s what I see as the trap and how I’ve managed to get out of it:

Like many here, I had a BPD parent, and one of the key manipulation techniques used on my younger self, was the accusation of being selfish.

Similarly to “you don’t care” or “you think only of yourself” or “you’re totally self-absorbed”—any of those comments hurt terribly and when confronted with claims like that, I did whatever I could to show what a kind, loving, compassionate person I was.

The manipulation worked exceptionally well. And me, the manipulated one, was none the wiser for years, and it even survived into two marriages with BPD husband’s!  

What finally ended that technique’s success, was when I realized that I really didn’t care about my husband’s whiny attitude and attention driven manipulation—in the moment in which it was occurring. Of course I cared about his emotional well-being, but not his toddler like behavior.

So one day when confronted by a “you don’t care” I agreed. Yes, you’re right. I don’t care about this (insignificant issue), but I do care about you.

I did the same on another occasion when told I was selfish or self-absorbed. “Yep. You’re right.”

That put an end to the effectiveness of those manipulations. And now I wasn’t inadvertently hooked into a drama I didn’t want to participate in.

[MidLifCrysis1]

Cat! I can't believe that actually worked? Seriously? :-O

So one day when confronted by a “you don’t care” I agreed. Yes, you’re right. I don’t care about this insignificant issue, but I do care about you.

I did the same on another occasion when told I was selfish or self-absorbed. “Yep. You’re right.”

That put an end to the effectiveness of those manipulations. And now I wasn’t inadvertently hooked into a drama I didn’t want to participate in.

[Cat Familiar]

Certainly I’ve  had to repeat it a couple of times, but yeah. I know I’m not a narcissist and he knows it too. He sees how I behave in context over the years and he realizes that I care about him.

The reason it worked is that I decoupled my desire to be seen in a good light from his attempt to manipulate me to respond in a way that he thought would make him feel better.

And there’s nothing wrong with supporting ourselves. So many of us who are codependent forget that.

Certainly there are times when we’re tired and our partners pull these stunts (the either you’re for me or against me variety) and we would really like to say, “Just cut the   and get real!” But of course we clothe it in supportive language, trying to elicit what they really feel, and then get further down the rabbit hole.

Much easier to acknowledge my own flaws and not make a big deal out of it. Yes I’m selfish, and impatient, and intolerant. So what?

[formflier]

Below is the key.  At least it was for me.  There were lots of things I resented for a long time, yet I "allowed" or "enabled" them to continue.

By putting my own wants and needs last, resentment eventually starts to build

Money was an issue for us.  I'm a banker's son, so my financial records are pretty tight.  Rare that I bounce something or there is anything that "looks like chaos" in how I administer money.

Let's just say most areas of a pwBPD's life have lots of chaos in them.  Finances are no different.

So...part of the reason I separated our finances was reduction of chaos.  

For a time my wife was upset about it.   Most of the time now it's not an issue.

Here is the thing, no more resentment about money in my life.  Victory!

Yes, you’re right. I don’t care about this insignificant issue, but I do care about you.

Very powerful and succinct.  

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Just to clarify, I would never refer to something my husband was worked up about as an "insignificant issue" though I might think that. If I actually verbalized it, that would come across as very invalidating. I used "insignificant issue" as a placeholder for the issue du jour over which he was commiserating. In his mind, it's the most important thing, temporarily, of course, until something else takes center stage.

But in the long run, how truly important are these issues? Likely not very in terms of our most important values.

[Ozzie101]

Very insightful. Thanks, Cat!

Next time he goes on that track, I'll give that one a try. Does it matter in the slightest what insurance my dad accepts? No. Yet he seems to be building it up into a "thing." But that's one I can just sort of let go. No, I don't really care about it. I care about you, but not my dad's business decisions.

In his calm times, he'll admit to me that sometimes he says hateful, hurtful things that he knows aren't true because he thinks he has to "shock" me or hit me hard enough that I see how serious the situation is or how bad he's really feeling. But, that he knows that's not right and that I do probably "get it" -- I just respond and process in a different way.

It's like having whiplash -- like he's two different people. One's irrational and negative and cruel. The other is thoughtful and funny and insightful. I'm still not used to that.