First post -- Need support

[Daedalus22]

All,

This is my first post.

I'm dealing with what feels like an impossibly difficult situation.  My wife of 12 years filed for divorce about two and a half years ago after thinking I had been having an affair (I hadn't been).  We have three children, ages 12, 9, and 6.  So far, we have made very little progress in the divorce and we still live in the same apartment.  She rented separate apartments for herself on two occasions but never really used them.  I've stayed in the house.

When I told my sister that we were splitting, she flew to New York and met me in a bookstore cafe.  She handed me a copy of Stop Walking on Eggshells and asked me to read the first few pages and tell her if any of it sounded familiar.  It all did.  Since then, there have been countless outbursts in couples therapy (which we still do for co-parenting), during which I can't get a word in without being contradicted, misconstrued, or scolded.  My therapist eventually called me and told me that my wife had some of the worst BPD and NPD tendencies she has ever seen.

I work full-time at a very demanding job, and we have a lifestyle in New York that demands I do it well.  My wife does not work, at least not earnestly.  She had a start-up business that didn't go anywhere afternoon consuming an inordinate amount of our savings (which I gave willingly in support).  I do what feels like the lion share of the parenting.  I wake up and handle breakfast and make sure the kids get to school on most days.  She  picks them up, but then usually takes them home and locks herself in her bedroom while they do whatever they do.  She sometimes orders dinner, but not usually.  And she sleeps until long after they leave for school, and rarely emerges from her room before noon on weekends.  We had a fabulous nanny who had been with the kids for nine years but my wife forced me to fire her; she gave a nonsensical reason, but it was because the nanny had been too much of a mother figure.  She still considers that nanny a close friend, even though they barely ever speak.

Money has been tight lately, and we can't even talk about it.  She insists that I'm hiding money, lying about everything, and out to get her at every turn.  What drives me nuts more than anything is she constantly questions things that are verifiable, such as my income.  She has signed every tax return, has access to every bank statement, and yet still believes I am making everything up.  If I were guilty of everything she's suggested, I would be in jail for countless crimes involving the IRS and my employer.

She is constantly creating fake competitions -- situations that force me to choose between her and my job, her and my kids, her and my parents.  Despite my literally doing everything for the family (which to me still includes her), she always makes me feel belittled, inadequate, and just generally sad.  I don't know why I let it bother me as much as I do.  She doesn't have many other friends, and people have told me that while she's a pleasure to be around, she's hard to "connect" with.  My observation is that every people is her life sucks in some way.  She's never had a coworker she didn't complain about.  Her mom is unsupportive.  This lawyer doesn't get it.  This police officer is incompetent and so on.  It's as if she doesn't want support; she just wants people to feel like they can't give it.

Recently, she may have taken this to a new level.  She's been highly sexually promiscuous since we split up.  That actually doesn't bother me; she's free to do whatever she wants.  But a few months ago, she came home from a trip to California during which she claimed to have been raped by an advisor to her company.  To her here tell the story is terrible -- it involves drugs, a sex club, and multiple men, all orchestrated by this one individual.  I came to learn later that she had been sleeping with the guy for a year or two and that this wasn't the first time they had gone to such a place.  Moreover, she tried to explain this away by telling me that the "vast majority" of people go to these sex clubs, and that regardless what she's done in the past, no is still no (I agree, of course).  In the weeks since, she has implored me to help her speak to police, find lawyers, discuss strategy, all while constantly telling me that my support is inadequate.  And meanwhile, I'm not even sure how much of it I believe.  That sounds like such a terrible thing for me to say, because I care about her so much, and if only 5% of it is true, it's still beyond awful, but something just feels off about it.

I have a handful of immediate problems.  First, I need to move out of my house.  We live in New York City, and I desperately want to move to the suburbs.  This is where I want to be and where my kids want to be.  I can't decide how to handle this in the context of a custody discussion.  She probably wouldn't sign a 50/50 arrangement in New York City, let alone something that allows me to move the kids.  I could stay get a second place in the city and shuttle the kids back and forth -- my lawyers favorite option -- but that strikes me as a shame, because I would be putting both me and my kids in a place we don't want to be just for the sake of preserving stronger legal positioning against a woman who can't parent anyway.

Just three house ago, we had a huge fight.  I left the office at about 5pm and she called and told me to come home (I was prioritizing work too much, as usual).

Around the same time, my daughter called me.  She had been at a friends house, and my wife had told her to take an Uber home.  Not wanting to take a car by herself after dark (she's 12) she asked me to pick her up.  I did.  I was excoriated for this, and even told that I had violated the friend's parent by having my daughter stay at her friends' house a little later than expected.  I called the parent to apologize, and she couldn't have been more lovely; there was no issue whatsoever.  All I did was pick up my daughter from a friends house, and I was told I had wronged the friend and wronged my wife.

When I got home, the boys (9 and 6) had not eaten dinner.  My wife was in bed on her telephone, as usual.  I went upstairs to cook, and my wife came up to yell at my daughter for screwing up her friends family's evening.  My wife then sat down on the couch and said to me, in front of the kids, "Hey, I found a house for you to move to."  She told the kids that she can't wait for me to move out and stormed out of the room.  This was the first time anything like this had been said in front of my kids.  I cried in a way they've never seen me cry before.  I've tried so hard to shield them from all of this.  They hugged me -- all three of them at once -- and told me that they wanted to live with me.  Just then my wife came back into the room and said, "Your dad is a liar and a cheater and he steals.  He ruined our marriage."

I'm not perfect.  Far from it.  I'm guilty of plenty.  Not anything like what she thinks, but plenty still.  So is she.  In fact, she repeatedly asks me to schedule a trip to visit the woman she thinks I cheated with so that we can all talk, which is an idea I've resisted because I don't see anything good coming out of it (the woman is going to say exactly what I've said and my wife is going to call her a liar as well).   Just tonight, she threatened to never talk to me again if I didn't make plans to do that within 24 hours.  Hatred.  Ultimatums.  I just can't take it anymore.  It's abusive, and there doesn't seem to be any end in sight.

To be clear, I'm rooting for my wife.  I want her to be happy.  I want her to be a good mother.  I want her to succeed.  But heavens this is hard to deal with.

Anyway, I appreciate anyone reading this, and any and all support.  I'd love to find a group of people in New York dealing with similar things.

Thanks.

[GaGrl]

Welcome, Daedelus22! 

We're glad you found your way to us, although the reason behind your journey is painful. There are many members on this board who have completed the journey as well as others who are in the midst right now. We can give you help and support.

You sound as if you are leaning toward a move to the suburbs right now? Is that something that will give you and your children some relief until a final agreement is worked out? Is this the main source of stress for you now?

You say you are seeing a counselor for co-parenting. Are either of you in individual therapy? What about the children?

[worriedStepmom]

At this point, are you willing to move the divorce forward, or are you waiting for your wife to make a move, since she filed first?

What does your lawyer think needs to happen?  How likely does he think it will be that you get primary custody?

[Daedalus22]

At this point, are you willing to move the divorce forward, or are you waiting for your wife to make a move, since she filed first?

What does your lawyer think needs to happen?  How likely does he think it will be that you get primary custody?

I'm very much willing to move it forward.  It's difficult, because she doesn't respond to anything.  For example, we sent financial statements two months ago and she hasn't even acknowledged receipt.  All we've heard is that she's changed lawyers, which I expect will happen a few times.  Because she can't possibly be getting the advice that she wants, if she's getting any advice at all.  Her constant manipulation of facts surely extends to her conversations with her lawyers, and the advice is only as good as the information you give when seeking it.  She was furious at her first lawyer because she hired a major NYC law firm and expected that the head of the firm would handle the case.  He's the sort of guy who does billion dollar divorces, and suffice it to say, mine has far fewer zeroes.  So he gave it to an associate, and that was a enough to get fired.  I imagine they're happy about it.

I don't have a great read on custody and I'm very torn whether to fight for it.  It strikes me as so mean, to try to take kids away from a clearly troubled mother.  I'd rather she get treatment.  But maybe that's pollyannaish of me.  I'm not a fighter in that way.  I also work, so it's not like I can actually be with the kids full-time.  So there would be a nanny involved, and I don't know how that would figure in.

[Daedalus22]

Welcome, Daedelus22! 

We're glad you found your way to us, although the reason behind your journey is painful. There are many members on this board who have completed the journey as well as others who are in the midst right now. We can give you help and support.

You sound as if you are leaning toward a move to the suburbs right now? Is that something that will give you and your children some relief until a final agreement is worked out? Is this the main source of stress for you now?

You say you are seeing a counselor for co-parenting. Are either of you in individual therapy? What about the children?

My wife always resisted individual therapy but has been seeing a few people since the rape allegation.  She asked me to find her some therapists.  In fact, she told one of them about one of our fights, and it prompted a child services investigation into me (my wife was way in the wrong, and that became clear).  She then called that therapist an idiot.  And pretty much every other therapist.  She says she sees them because her lawyer (who I also found for her) thinks she should.

I find therapy incredibly useful.  We found a wonderful marriage counselor who I've sort of adopted as my own.  My wife joins about half the sessions and this the co-parenting therapy I referred to above.

As to the suburbs, I am dying to move there.  I need the space and grass.  It creates all sort of issues, though.  Yes, it's the primary source of stress, and here is why.

The kids are in school in the city, so there is no way that they can spend half their time with me and half their time with their mom if I move.  That will have to change next year, because we won't be able to afford it anymore and will have to move the kids to public schools.

So my lawyer thinks I should stay in the city and get a 50/50 arrangement to start.  That would get me out of the house, at least.  But I don't want to do that.  And the kids want to spend time out of the city.  Their ex-nanny had a house in the Catskills, and they used to go there frequently.  That went away when my wife made us fire the nanny.  They miss it terribly, and tell me all the time.

But if I move to the suburbs, I'll have them less than 50% of the time (even though I'd have a lot more of the high-quality time), and that sets a bad precedent if I want to fight for custody later on (because I would have essentially admitted by my actions that she is competent to take care of the kids).

So I don't know what to do.

[dt9000]

Welcome Daedelus22. It sounds like you have been through a lot. Hang in there and keep coming here and to others (friends, family, therapist) for support.

I have read a number of introductory posts on this forum and I am always amazed at how similar our experiences are. My BPDex was highly promiscuous throughout our marriage and reported several assaults by those she was with. It was troubling each time she went through this, and I was caught up with supporting her, police, attorneys, etc. In hindsight I doubt whether any of her claims were true. I do believe she *thinks* they occurred, which makes her claims so convincing.

Get some legal advice regarding custody decisions. I didn't and now regret it...  we had a mutually decided shared custody arrangement as we separated. Nothing on paper, we just openly communicated our plans each week. I moved into a place in the same neighborhood and things seemed great. My children were with me a lot during this time, and I was enjoying life one-step removed from the BPD craziness. Then she split me black, wouldn't allow the kids to visit and ultimately made allegations of abuse against me over the course of a few weeks. Now I'm in a battle to get visitation with my children that I basically raised on my own, because my BPDex was much like yours with regard to parenting ability. I think things will eventually work out, but it's been a long, expensive journey. Hope for the best but expect and plan for the worst.

dt9000

[Daedalus22]

dt9000 - Thanks for this.

This is strikingly similar.  How old were you kids when you moved, and how old are they now?

[kells76]

Really glad you joined the boards, Daedalus22...

What a hard situation you're in. You've seen the light about your wife, but now that you're looking at reality, the choices seem impossible. You're wanting to do what's best for your kids in terms of time with you, time with their mom, and living location, and none of the options are looking that great. Yet you know if you stick with things as-is, it'll be more arguments, no-win situations, and escalating accusations.

Absolutely this is hard to deal with. It can be crazy-making, and it can be tough to see other options or possibilities.

...

Are you and the kids physically safe around your W?

I ask because if so, there is a sense in which you can buy some time to really walk through plans and ideas here (and perhaps with your L) in detail. I would say there are centuries of experience here on this board in terms of dealing with unstable, high-conflict, blaming, irrational people, especially when there are kids involved. We've all had to learn creative, unintuitive ways to help our kids & stepkids. Generally speaking, both from my husband's experience and from reading others' stories here, if you can take a little more time at the start of the divorce process to slow things down, get some more outside perspective, and brainstorm out-of-the-box ideas, it'll pay off for your kids big time.

...

All that being said...

So I don't know what to do.

Really understandable.

One step at a time.

What kind of documentation have you been able to do? If none, or not much, consider taking the step of documenting (in a SECURE journal format) specific times that you take care of the kids, and what it is you do for and with them.

...

Keep posting as much as you feel up for. We're 100% here for you and get where you're coming from.

Cheers;

kells76

[Daedalus22]

Are you and the kids physically safe around your W?

I ask because if so, there is a sense in which you can buy some time to really walk through plans and ideas here (and perhaps with your L) in detail. I would say there are centuries of experience here on this board in terms of dealing with unstable, high-conflict, blaming, irrational people, especially when there are kids involved. We've all had to learn creative, unintuitive ways to help our kids & stepkids. Generally speaking, both from my husband's experience and from reading others' stories here, if you can take a little more time at the start of the divorce process to slow things down, get some more outside perspective, and brainstorm out-of-the-box ideas, it'll pay off for your kids big time.

Yes, the kids are safe.  I mean, they don't get nurtured, and they're on their screens way too much, but they're safe.

I've been trying to take that time, but honestly, no answers have come.  I need to get out of this house, but I can't do that without a clear understanding with what's happening with kids.  She'll tell me that "we always work things out with the kids; that was never the problem with us," but I don't believe that.  I'll move, and then she'll try to get in the way of me seeing them.  She'll claim all sorts of things, I bet.  So I can't trust that it'll all just magically work out.  But at agreement is going to be hard to get it, and in any event, will take time.

So that creates a choice:  I could move out, knowing fully well that I'm the primary parent, and trust that gets resolved somehow and over time.  Because she is not going to become better the instant I leave, and if I'm wrong and she does, that would be great.  I'm not rooting for her to fail.  But if she does, and I want to seek full custody later, or even 50/50 custody, to what extent have I prejudiced myself by moving now?

Not for nothing, but I have been doing this primary care-giving, and balancing it against a job, for several years.  I don't have detailed day-to-day records, but there's a large group of people (including our nanny and even members of my wife's family) who would vouch for the job I've done.  I believe the kids would as well.

[dt9000]

dt9000 - Thanks for this.

This is strikingly similar.  How old were you kids when you moved, and how old are they now?

We are coming up on the 1 year anniversary from when we first separated. My kids are 10 through 19. My BPDex has engaged in alienation with my kids so I'm dealing with that as well as trying to get visitation.

[kells76]

Yes, the kids are safe.  I mean, they don't get nurtured, and they're on their screens way too much, but they're safe.

OK, good to know. Yes, not emotionally safe, I get it, but given that you are looking to improve the situation and they're not physically in danger, OK just for now.

She'll tell me that "we always work things out with the kids; that was never the problem with us," but I don't believe that.  I'll move, and then she'll try to get in the way of me seeing them.  She'll claim all sorts of things, I bet.  So I can't trust that it'll all just magically work out.

This is a really, really good thing for you to be thinking about. So many folks here have hoped and believed that "even though we can't be married, I think we can still coparent effectively". My husband was one of them, and it went exactly as you described. Claims of "emotional danger" from him, withholding the kids, all of it. So you are actually in a very good headspace right now to see that if you just "move out and believe that it'll work", it won't.

I could move out, knowing fully well that I'm the primary parent, and trust that gets resolved somehow and over time.

You know it, but she can't or won't see it, because of what that would mean about her identity as a mom.

Thinking as calm, rational people, we believe that trust would be there as two parties want only what's best for the kids. I suspect your W is so dysfunctional that she wants what's best for meeting her emotional needs. All of us do to some extent, but disordered parents place their own emotional well-being above their kids.

...

Have to take a break for a bit, but back soon.

-kells76

[dt9000]

Not for nothing, but I have been doing this primary care-giving, and balancing it against a job, for several years.  I don't have detailed day-to-day records, but there's a large group of people (including our nanny and even members of my wife's family) who would vouch for the job I've done.  I believe the kids would as well.

My experience with the courts is that the opinions of friends and family mean nothing. Your family and friends are expected to say nice things about you. If you have time, try to get something in writing from professionals: teachers, therapists, pediatrician, etc.

[kells76]

I wake up and handle breakfast and make sure the kids get to school on most days.  She  picks them up, but then usually takes them home and locks herself in her bedroom while they do whatever they do.  She sometimes orders dinner, but not usually.  And she sleeps until long after they leave for school, and rarely emerges from her room before noon on weekends.  We had a fabulous nanny who had been with the kids for nine years but my wife forced me to fire her; she gave a nonsensical reason, but it was because the nanny had been too much of a mother figure.

This is also going to be important as you figure out a plan for going forward.

How would you say your wife perceives herself as a mom? Is it a big part of her identity?

I ask because BPD-type moms often fall into one of two camps when it comes to divorce (thought some can initially be on one side and then suddenly switch).

With moms more than dads, they typically overinvest in their identity with regards to their kids. This type wants to be seen as "a wonderful, warm, caring mother" and may over-identify with one of the kids in particular ("you're just like me, we're so similar, we're like sisters, you are so wise" type stuff). This sort of mom may fight tooth and nail to "keep" the kids and win their loyalty to her, as it props up her self perception. Recall that people with BPD-type behaviors struggle profoundly with a sense of self, and often seek it externally.

The other type is less common with moms, but does happen. This kind is so invested in "finding themselves", seeking "personal fulfillment", and getting validation from friends, acquaintances, and emotional/romantic partners that they would be willing to walk away from their kids to "be their true selves" and "feel happy". Nominally, they might pay lip service to "of course I care about the kids", but if left to their own devices, without pressure, they may "excuse themselves" from parenting and from the kids' lives. Like I said, perhaps less common with moms, but interestingly, with my DH, right around when he and the kids' mom were separating, she did say something like "I'd be fine if you had the kids". Once she got a new romantic partner and married (quickly), though, she did a total 180.

If your W is more of the second type, then timing will be important when it comes to making sure the kids spend the most time with you (the more stable parent). We often sabotage ourselves with visions of being "nice" and "fair" and "not wanting to be mean and take the kids away from their mom", but what can happen is that Mom then does that 180 and takes the kids away from YOU.

You're already thinking about this stuff, so if you're up for identifying which type of mom your W is, that can help us as we keep walking you through planning.

[worriedStepmom]

You are the primary caregiver, and it sounds like you have been for a while.

Why do you think your wife should have 50/50 custody?

[GaGrl]

You are the primary caregiver, and it sounds like you have been for a while.

Why do you think your wife should have 50/50 custody?

And...why not?

One topic you can discuss with a lawyer is a custody evaluation, which can help determine the best situation for the children. It mighr, or might not, include a psychological evaluation. Several parents here have experience with this approach.

[CoherentMoose]

Welcome!   Sorry you find yourself in this tough situation, but you'll find some amazing support and advice here.  Suggest you read Splitting by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger (https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2CHLYILIX0JMQ&keywords=splitting+bill+eddy&qid=1575572142&sprefix=splitting+bill+e%2Caps%2C353&sr=8-1). 

It may help you scope the challenges your are facing. 

Also, make sure you take care of yourself; exercise, eat well, get good sleep. 

Last, make sure you document well.  Suggest keeping a daily journal and keep it somewhere secure and private.  There are several stories on this site where documentation efforts allowed them to better protect themselves and their children.  Good luck. jdc

[ForeverDad]

...she doesn't respond to anything.  For example, we sent financial statements two months ago and she hasn't even acknowledged receipt.  All we've heard is that she's changed lawyers, which I expect will happen a few times.

I faced that dilemma twice.  Once when we were both ordered to take Psych Evals.  I did and shared it.  (I had anxiety.)  She never did, or at least I never found out.  Second was when her lawyer sent divorce interrogatories but we were already divorced and back in court for custody issues.  Due to her lawyer never responding, my lawyer got frustrated and sent them our focused list of interrogatories.  My due date came first of course and my lawyer sent some 600 pages I had gathered.  Her due date came and we got "crickets".  That's right, nothing!

From those experiences I told my lawyer we can't expect cooperation and if something like that came up again I instructed him to hold our information and simply communicate, "Our paperwork is ready.  When your paperwork is ready, we can EXCHANGE them."

Oh, do keep a journal but your stbEx does not have a right to browse it.  (Courts will allow you to review it to refresh your memory on details while on the stand but her lawyer can't rifle through it.)  One time I left behind my page-a-day at the dental office and they let her walk out with it.  When I found out, I had to ask her for its return.  Of course she had added snarky comments in it.