Mind and Face reading by a person with BPD

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I don't know that my wife has BPD; she would never check enough boxes on the diagnostic, imo.  However, she has a couple of behaviors that strike me as BPD.

1.  If I make a bad facial expression, she takes that as an offense against her.  In her mind, a proper person would mask the negative emotions on their face.  The fact that I do not do so means I have committed an offense against her, which I should apologize for.
2.  She thinks she can read my thoughts.  If my thoughts are negative, I have committed an offense against her and should apologize to her.  What becomes funny is when she totally misreads what I am thinking, and even when I tell her what I was thinking, she will argue with me about what I was thinking.

I am curious, though.  Is it wrong to show emotions on your face?  If a person makes us angry, and our face shows it (but we control what we say), is that wrong?  I think a lot of people mask their facial expressions, because they want to hide due to potential shame.  For me personally, I am not worried about being embarrassed (I have Asperger's btw), so I have little interest in hiding what I am feeling.  I do focus a lot on my words, though.

[Fian]

I don't know that my wife has BPD; she would never check enough boxes on the diagnostic, imo.  However, she has a couple of behaviors that strike me as BPD.

1.  If I make a bad facial expression, she takes that as an offense against her.  In her mind, a proper person would mask the negative emotions on their face.  The fact that I do not do so means I have committed an offense against her, which I should apologize for.
2.  She thinks she can read my thoughts.  If my thoughts are negative, I have committed an offense against her and should apologize to her.  What becomes funny is when she totally misreads what I am thinking, and even when I tell her what I was thinking, she will argue with me about what I was thinking.

I am curious, though.  Is it wrong to show emotions on your face?  If a person makes us angry, and our face shows it (but we control what we say), is that wrong?  I think a lot of people mask their facial expressions, because they want to hide due to potential shame.  For me personally, I am not worried about being embarrassed (I have Asperger's btw), so I have little interest in hiding what I am feeling.  I do focus a lot on my words, though.

[Ozzie101]

Something I've learned? PwBPD tend to be very sensitive to tone of voice, body language and facial expressions. My H has gotten very upset at a "look" he insists I gave. Or, like your W, he'll insist he knows what I'm thinking. Sometimes he's right, yes, but often he's wrong -- or just off the mark. Can't convince him of that during a dysregulation, though.

Anyway, it's not wrong, per se. It's just something that we Nons need to take into account when we're in a relationship with someone with BPD. It will be taken as part of the conversation, and possibly to a greater degree than a similar discussion or argument with a Non.

[Cat Familiar]

No matter how skillful one is at concealing facial expressions and maintaining a neutral facial expression, “leakage” of micro expressions, taking less than a second occur.

I’ve always been good at keeping a “poker face” and it was a very necessary skill growing up with a BPD mom, but even so, I’m still not in control of those fleeting micro expressions and people who are very perceptive can pick them up.

PwBPD can be extremely perceptive, having developed this skill as a survival mechanism, but they often notice this “leakage” and misidentify the meaning of the expressions, usually interpreting them as judgment, disagreement, and hostility.

Unless you are highly trained to correctly identify them, the most you can speculate is that the individual is concealing emotions. If you want to learn how to identify facial expressions and micro expressions, Paul Eckman’s website offers training courses. These are the same courses that mental health and law enforcement professionals take. I highly recommend them.

As someone who is probably on the Aspergers spectrum, I realized that I often missed important information reflected in facial expressions and taking those courses made a world of difference.

[zachira]

I have several family members with BPD. In my experience, people with BPD are easily emotionally dysregulated and often offend others, particularly those people who are closest to them. As they are regularly on emotional overload, they interpret the slightest sign of disapproval whether it is a facial expression, not hearing what they would like to hear, or something else, as a trigger for emotional dysregulation and to find someone or something to blame for the feelings they feel overwhelmed by.
Regarding your question: I believe it is important to not feel the feelings of the person with BPD for them. This includes not becoming part of their emotional dysregulation, like taking on their anger for them. It is challenging to stay grounded and not get upset when the person with BPD is upset, yet with time and practice we can learn to take on less of their emotions for them.

[Cat Familiar]

Regarding your question, “Is it wrong to show emotions on your face?”

It’s human nature to do this. However, we have the choice to conceal (somewhat) what we are thinking or feeling.

I like to be strategic about what I express. Should I be pulled over for driving 5 miles above the speed limit, I wouldn’t want to show an expression of contempt to the highway patrol officer, even though I would feel that it was ridiculous to be targeted for such a minor infraction.

Likewise if I’m really annoyed about something my husband did, it would serve me better to not show how irritated I am when I ask him to do something different.

[formflier]

Regarding your question, “Is it wrong to show emotions on your face?”
 

I don't think it's wrong.

I personally have found it better to be authentic and express shock.

"Oh my..."

"Oh goodness...give me a bit to collect myself."

"Oh wow...let me get focused on listening to you."

"Pardon me...I was in another world.  Can you say that again."

Now, to be honest, that's not an exact reflection of my inner "bpd meter going off" but I find a "good offense" (saying so mething quickly) is better than trying to "poker face it".

In my relationship, poker face is better for after I've set a boundary or posed a question that I'm waiting for (and usually realize she isn't going to answer) 

In fact, I did the poker face about an hour ago.

"I'm going to push pause on this conversation, until we both believe it's wise to continue."  (then assume poker face, don't get drawn in)

15 minutes of light grumping and outloud rumination.  15 minutes of rapid cleaning (loudly).  15 minutes of pensive conversation with kids in the room.  15 min of "uber happy" while doing something with kids in other room.

Best,

FF

[Butane]

My H "notices everything".

The problem is, he often misinterprets what he sees on my face. For example, I might be frowning because I am thinking - but he assumes I am annoyed. When I say "No dear, I'm not annoyed, I'm just thinking", he will debate the point. He won't believe me.

In addition to misinterpreting my expression, he also takes what he sees personally. For example, if I look exasperated in a good natured kind of way (which happens when you have kids), he will accuse me of being "angry and making a big deal out of everything". If I tell him I'm not angry, just amused or momentarily annoyed, he will debate the point.

It is very challenging. He has told me he needs me to be in a good mood all the time, bright and cheerful, hair smooth and shiny, makeup on, ready for the day. Visually, he needs to see that I am upbeat and positive and confident. A lack of makeup or bad hair/bad clothes because I'm doing yardwork all day does not sit well with him. He interprets that as poor self care and depression.

Nowadays, I try to LOOK good and LOOK positive when he is home. Feeling good and positive is not sufficient. 

[formflier]

What are some things people have found effective to say in response to "face reading" and what have people found "makes it worse"?

Some FF things that work for me

ffw:  You are (fill in the blank)

ff:  Oh my, are you asking about my feelings?

then if she says no I say sadly  "bummer...our conversation is over.  Let me know when you are ready to understand."  (if I use the word "listen" that seems to trigger, but understand seems to be better)

Things that make it worse:

"I don't feel that way"

"yes you do"

"you can't know my emotions"

"yes I can, they train me to do that at work"

Good thread! Keep it up

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

That's a good suggestion, FF. I'll have to try that. My H doesn't "face read" as much these days, but if it comes up again, it will be nice to have some ideas of how to respond.

[Butane]

Good idea FF.

Poor interaction:

H: Are you going to do your hair?

Me: (wilting facial expression) Yes. It's frizzy right now but I'm letting it air dry first, then I'll use the straightening iron.

H: You should use the frizz products I got you

Me: I am. They work great!

H: Well, you need to use the products EVERY DAY.

Me: I do. Every time I wash my hair.
... leads to debate about the fact that daily hair washing is very drying... he disagrees strongly...

H: You should wash, blow dry and straighten it EVERY DAY! You look disheveled and frazzled. I hate that!

Me: (facial expression now sad, defeated) But H, I'm just letting it air dry right now! I know it looks bad, but it's a process!

H: You're so defensive. if you will just listen to me and do things right!

Result: no win situation, he is mad, I feel bad. This could last 20 minutes.

Better interaction:
H: are you going to do your hair?
Me (smiling): I know, its so frizzy. Trust me, I won't be going out looking disheveled and frazzled! I'm in the middle of styling it! (Cheerfully said)
Then disappear into the bathroom and don't come out until it's smooth and styled, with a smile.

[Fian]

It is interesting how different relationships are.  If I say anything negative about my wife's appearance, she would be furious with me.  We would never have the conversation that you described.

To be honest, pretending to be happy and being expected to always look perfect, is not a healthy aspect to a relationship.  Push back results in strife, and you have to weigh whether it is worth it.  Others can probably talk to this much better than I, but there is the book Walking on Eggshells that deals with this issue.

[Cat Familiar]

To be honest, pretending to be happy and being expected to always look perfect, is not a healthy aspect to a relationship. 

That he would be so controlling about your appearance makes me wonder if he’s abusive in other ways.

My first marriage had this element of control about my appearance, and physical and emotional abuse as well. My husband was dissatisfied with my weight. I’ve always been skinny (5’7” 118 pounds), but he wanted me to be supermodel skinny and called me “fat”. No matter how I tried to make myself into his ideal, it was never good enough.

[formflier]

Better interaction:
H: are you going to do your hair?
Me (smiling): I know, its so frizzy. Trust me, I won't be going out looking disheveled and frazzled! I'm in the middle of styling it! (Cheerfully said)
Then disappear into the bathroom and don't come out until it's smooth and styled, with a smile.

Best interaction: (or better than better)

H:  are you going to do your hair?
Me (you) :  It depends

Leave it at that.

Think about JADE, can you see that you are "explaining".

How often does he "honestly" ask about your hair.

Here is the thing, that's a shocking conversation to me.  Luckily "appearance" isn't a dysfunctional thing with my wife. 

I also avoid ever telling her it looks bad.

I'll say "not my first choice and then pivot to saying, that (xyz) outfit the other day.  Yeah...that does you justice.  This one...not so much." 

I ask and do as I'm told.  Because otherwise I'd go "dirty farmer look" or "dirty mechanic going to the auto parts store" about all day long.

Anyway...

Good thread, keep it up.

Best,

FF

[Fian]

Best interaction: (or better than better)

H:  are you going to do your hair?
Me (you) :  It depends

Leave it at that.

If my wife said that to me, I would say, it depends on what?  This is probably my Asperger talking, but what is the follow up answer if he asks more?

[formflier]

Good question, let me give that some thought and let's chat about it tomorrow during dinner.

Do you want to have that new fish dish we have been talking about.  Perhaps great with a new salad.


(basically kick the can down the road, emotions different tomorrow)

Seriously...don't feed the monster at all.

Best,

FF

[Butane]

It is interesting how different relationships are.  If I say anything negative about my wife's appearance, she would be furious with me.  We would never have the conversation that you described.

To be honest, pretending to be happy and being expected to always look perfect, is not a healthy aspect to a relationship.  Push back results in strife, and you have to weigh whether it is worth it.  Others can probably talk to this much better than I, but there is the book Walking on Eggshells that deals with this issue.

Read it! That is, audio-booked it! Also, numerous other audio books about BPD, PTSD, complex PTSD etc. I have been learning through audio in the car for many months now.

I used to walk on eggshells big-time. Nowadays I'm practicing the new skills I'm learning all day, it seems.

[Butane]

That he would be so controlling about your appearance makes me wonder if he’s abusive in other ways.

My first marriage had this element of control about my appearance, and physical and emotional abuse as well. My husband was dissatisfied with my weight. I’ve always been skinny (5’7” 118 pounds), but he wanted me to be supermodel skinny and called me “fat”. No matter how I tried to make myself into his ideal, it was never good enough.

Yes, I finally realized that he has been emotionally abusive in many ways over several years. He has also realized and expressed regret. It required that he reach what I hope will be his rock bottom. He actually thinks, and expresses, that he thinks I am beautiful... what he can't handle is when I appear anxious, hesitant, down, unkempt, rushed, frazzled etc. I think he feels all these things himself, and can't handle if I'm not "put together"

[formflier]

I think he feels all these things himself, and can't handle if I'm not "put together"

Not sure if "projection" is the right word here...maybe.

Basically when they "see" what they "feel" inside, they start "throwing stones" at it.

I have had some success (less than 50% but enough to keep trying) in "flipping it" and inquiring about my pwBPD, perhaps validating some.

Best,

FF

[Butane]

Not sure if "projection" is the right word here...maybe.

Basically when they "see" what they "feel" inside, they start "throwing stones" at it.

I have had some success (less than 50% but enough to keep trying) in "flipping it" and inquiring about my pwBPD, perhaps validating some.

Best,

FF

Yes, I agree that "projection" is not quite what this is. In H's case, he feels more comfortable, calm and in control when he sees signs, visually, of calm, happiness, competence, confidence, productivity etc in me.

Today, he remarked twice that I had a smear of lipstick. A pimple is noticed immediately. Body language showing uncertainty bothers him a lot.

[enlighten me]

People with low self esteem can be hypervigilant. Its a defence mechanism learnt over years. Think back to being at school when you felt vulnerable and nervous. You tried to pick up on any possible threat until you found your feet and gained confidence. With low self esteem they dont gain that confidence. They care what others think. It rattles around their head until 1 + 1=5. For example if your not looking your best it can be perceived that you've lost interest in them so cant be bothered to make an effort.

The skills of reading people are honed. A friend works in military intelligence and she told me of a girl who she suspected had BPD. When they were doing a facial recognition test where ten picture of a face with a changing emotion are shown this girl was getting it at the third photo. Most people identify around the fifth. She had honed her senses to give her a fraction of a second more time to work out what her response should be.

I went through it with my exs. I was accused of everything under the sun because I had been misread. My ex wife said it was one of the things that attracted her to me that I was hard to read. As time went on she made up her own text for what wasn't there.

[Butane]

People with low self esteem can be hypervigilant. Its a defence mechanism learnt over years. Think back to being at school when you felt vulnerable and nervous. You tried to pick up on any possible threat until you found your feet and gained confidence. With low self esteem they dont gain that confidence. They care what others think. It rattles around their head until 1 + 1=5. For example if your not looking your best it can be perceived that you've lost interest in them so cant be bothered to make an effort.

The skills of reading people are honed. A friend works in military intelligence and she told me of a girl who she suspected had BPD. When they were doing a facial recognition test where ten picture of a face with a changing emotion are shown this girl was getting it at the third photo. Most people identify around the fifth. She had honed her senses to give her a fraction of a second more time to work out what her response should be.

I went through it with my exs. I was accused of everything under the sun because I had been misread. My ex wife said it was one of the things that attracted her to me that I was hard to read. As time went on she made up her own text for what wasn't there.

That is so intriguing. I have read this before. Also that people with high emotional intensity not just notice more wrt facial expressions, but also misinterpret more easily, and over estimate negativity. I.e. I interpret a "neutral" as a "negative" .

My H has been hypervigilent for years.

[enlighten me]

There have been more and more studies on the borderline brain. They show that there are significant differences in certain parts. Below is an extract from an article.

Amygdala
The amygdala are responsible for emotions and motivations such as fear and anger but we have recently discovered they are also active during the processing of positive stimuli as well. In other words the amygdala are very important in regards to analyzing a situation and reacting logically. In a borderline brain the amygdala do not function correctly and are smaller in size; the smaller the amygdala the more active which can then result in emotional sensitivity. It also means that when a borderline experiences an emotion it takes longer to ‘cool off’ from said emotion than a healthy person.
Hippocampus
The hippocampus is in charge of short and long term memory and more importantly, emotional regulation. When we encounter something in the world and we take it in via our visual cortex the hippocampus decides what we do with that information, in borderline brains this does not function properly and an abnormal reaction is observed for example, flying into a rage over a perceived negative facial expression.
We see atrophy of the hippocampus in BPD patients the same way we see it in patients suffering with post traumatic stress disorder which is linked to increases in impulsivity and aggressive behaviour.

[Butane]

Well, my H suffers from PTSD and has many BPD traits and behavior patterns. A double whammy for those brain parts. It does help to know there are real, physical and physiological brain dysfunctions. Otherwise it would be tempting to judge him as just a jerk.

I often sense the internal struggle as he mis-perceives and judges the actions of people around him. Once last week, he had a mini meltdown, and 20 minutes later after he calmed down, told me he was changing up his supplement routine to help with his brain function.

He knows his brain function is impaired. In the midst of his dysregulations and over-reactions, he doesn't think that, of course. During those times, it is everyone else's fault.

[enlighten me]

It helped me to realise that there was something at the root cause.

We all at the end of the day need our own conclusion as to what were dealing with or have dealt with to give ourselves peace of mind.