Is it not risky to validate abuse when it is not valid

[Enabler]

How do we live in shades of grey when someone is accusing us of abuse? SH4's W (and my own... I'm trying to learn here as well) has accused her of being abusive to her as well as unloving. Is it not risky to validate abuse when it is not valid... even slightly, yet when SH4's grievance is distilled down her W seems unwilling to accept any other 'grey' option. She has to admit to abuse or... well... nothing.

Enabler

[babyducks]

Well Enabler,   I would say never ever validate the invalid.    If you are not abusive,   you don't validate that.    That's why you look for shades of grey,  look for the part of that ~feeling that can be validated.

SH4's wife "you never loved me and are emotional abusive"

SH4 "none of that is true,   youre making things up"

SH4 "yikes that sounds horrible.   That must feel horrible "

The first response  (just an example,  not suggesting SH4 said that ) shuts down communication.   It quickly becomes an argument.  You did!   I didn't!   

The second response moves things into a conversation about feelings  (not facts)  feelings can have more than one interpretation.    Feelings are shades of grey.   

Validation doesn’t mean agreement.    It means finding the one thing you can acknowledge.   

Enabler, I know you are not abusive.   Still for a person with highly intense painfully reactive emotions, an invalidating environment can feel abusive.     As always it's about feelings not facts.   Holding the facts and the (some times contradictory ) feelings at the same time as reflections of what is going on,   is the shades of grey I am referring to.

Does that clear anything up?

[Enabler]

Ducks, it does to an extent and I'm well versed in invalidation... but here's the thing, the way I've experienced it, my W believe that she has been abused in a similar fashion to the most heinous cases of abuse we've read about here and in the newspapers. There's no grey there for her. My guess is that she compares her feeling to that of what she might imagine the heinously abused person would feel and says "that's me"... I sense the same about SH4's W.

Where do you even start with that? It seems almost dangerous to even entertain a slight suggestion of her feelings being real... since that would be admitting to a criminal offence.

Enabler

[babyducks]

Having a relationship with someone with disordered thinking means we have to live in a very complicated dynamic where there are multiple truths, some of which contradict the other.

Yes.    Seriously.    Honestly I think having a relationship with anyone means you live a complicated dynamic where there are multiple truths.

hopefully that makes sense for anyone joining the thread.

Dangerous in what way Enabler?   are we talking about a criminal offense or something less?    does your wife have a habit of threatening criminal charges?   or has she posted charges in the past?    I just want to be sure what we are talking about.

I'm pretty sure you are correct about your wife.   there isn't any shades of grey for her.  and in a heightened emotional state she probably would compare her feelings to other abuse victims.      

your wife's reality is very real to her.   it's how she truly thinks and feels.  and it's very important to her.     validation is about acknowledging her reality without necessarily agreeing with it.  

here is a simple example.   I recently moved.   much nicer place.  almost luxurious.   more space.   more amenities.   the financial deal worked out great.  closer to the things I want to be close too.    farther away from the things I don't enjoy.   wonderful neighborhood.    you would think I would be over the moon wouldn't you?   you would expect I would be happy with the outcome.   right now I am not.    I can't find anything, even the things I unpacked and put away.    nothing feels comfortable.    doesn't feel like home.   I'm kind of miserable.   my feelings are real.    they may not be logical but they are real.   feelings aren't right or wrong.   they aren't good or bad.  they are not logical at all.     they just kind of are.    I never thought in a million years I would move and feel miserable.    but I do.    right now.    (don't expect this to last)

Where do you even start with that? It seems almost dangerous to even entertain a slight suggestion of her feelings being real... since that would be admitting to a criminal offence.

well I would suggest you start with your Grade A+ communication skills.    and understanding the goal.     this isn't about changing someone's mind.   or convincing them of something different.  or proving one thing right and one thing wrong.    at this level... it's more about opening a door to having a conversation where both people can be heard.

you want to pick your words carefully.   just because she is using highly charged emotional language doesn't mean you have to.   you don't come out and say "yup I was abusive"  and let the chips fall where they may.   that's validating the invalid.    

my Ex is Bipolar 1.   she could and did become psychotic.  when she thought God or the wind was talking to her,   I didn't say "Yup, the wind is sending you messages, it's saying take your medication"   that's not validation.  I also didn't say "Nope,... you're having a bout of mania... the wind isn't saying anything to you".     If memory serves me correctly what I think I said was "boy that must be really scary and convincing... do you think  we should call your P to see what to do about it?"

the best advice I ever got about her mental illness was 'validate the emotion first'.    if I didn't validate the emotion no chance the rest of the sentence would reach through the noise inside her for us to have a conversation about it.

and I kind of do the same thing with you Enabler.   I say I know you are not abusive, still someone with highly intense painfully chaotic emotions can find invalidating environments abusive.    If I don't take a shot at validating you,... I'm not going to be able to have a conversation about part two of that sentence.   Am I?  

the third place you start is small.     and for short durations.    one sentence.    this is a marathon not a sprint.

what do you think?

[formflier]

Where do you even start with that? It seems almost dangerous to even entertain a slight suggestion of her feelings being real... since that would be admitting to a criminal offence.

I think there is a big misconception about feelings and facts.

I would ABSOLUTELY entertain that her feelings are real.  Google for Bpdfamily and validating questions.  Several threads will come up.  

As you know, criminal cases are based on facts that are provable.

Resist conflating the two.

Hey Enabler.  As you know, we are both ESTJs and have a very similar outlook on life, process information and all that.

I used to "prove" my wife's theories were wrong.  I could tell stories from here to eternity about how I "invalidated her over and over again", setting myself free from her theories, yet doing tons of damage to our relationship

For instance:  She "knew" that I was doing the nasty with one of our renters because I lied to her about stopping at a burger king on the way home.  (very rural Dakota area, where fast food is unusual.  Whoppers are my favorite)

Anyhoo, I created a ruse to get her in the car and started driving.  Drove her about 30 minutes to (you guessed it) the burger king, bought her a meal, enjoyed my meal and showed her the receipt from the night in question.

Not once did I address the "feeling" that I was doing things with renters (or any other women).

Instead I rubbed her nose in the "wrongness" of her accusations.  Guess what, the next one was bigger.  And so was the next.

What can you do to address the "feelings"?  

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Where do you even start with that? It seems almost dangerous to even entertain a slight suggestion of her feelings being real... since that would be admitting to a criminal offence.

This is a rhetorical question with hyperbole right?  

Validation - you bought you wife flowers two weeks ago for her excellent handling of a kitchen fire. You understand this and know how to use it. Invalidation - your written and verbal communications to her affair partner's olive branch last month where you used his "reach out" to impugn his faith, character, and intent. You understand this and know how to use it. Hyperbole (the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device) - The divorce filings and divorce negotiations make no allegations of heinous criminal offenses. She leaves you home alone with the kids 160 nights a year. Hyperbole? Hyperbole.

Re: Is it not risky to validate abuse when it is not valid
I don't know of anyone at  bpdfamily who has ever suggested a member validate abuse or heinous criminal offenses.

[Enabler]

Hello everybody peeps.

The divorce petition states that I have “been emotionally and verbally abusive to her and the children”. In many senses I can see the contradiction between the hyperbole of things said in the heat of the moment, and the daily living of divorce process and looking after the kids. On the other hand even when things are discussed calmly the narrative of long term abuse persists and doesn’t seem at all diluted. It is very real for her and not just when she’s highly emotionally aroused. I get that no one OM bpdfamily would suggest that I validate a criminal action when it’s not occurred, but whether or not she would press charges (some of her support team think she should (especially OM) or not (she’d struggle to gather together ‘facts’ and ‘evidence’ she feels fully justified in holding onto this narrative. What moral justification does she have without the abuse pillar?

I can’t get my head round how I can say that I understand that she feels afraid, that I understand that she felt threatened... which I actually can... but only in the bounds of a BPD mindset.  “I can see how you felt threatened by me confronting you with evidence of you having an affair, that would make most people feel scared and guilty”, “I can totally appreciate how being called out for lying to me felt like I was impinging you’re freedom.” It’s tough to say how I ‘get it’ without explaining the context with which I get it.

In the past when she’s accused me specifically of abuse I’ve just flatly said “I don’t remember things that way”... which is invalidating. I sense that other people who do validate her narrative give her far more compelling justifications (by the very nature of them being validating) of her history and her feelings. How does one even introduce a new explanation for a feeling of abuse... without mentioning PDs?

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

That is really tricky. It seems that she needs some moral high ground to justify her violation of marriage vows and she’s grasping at straws.

In your shoes, I’d have a hard time validating any of that.

[GaGrl]

That is really tricky. It seems that she needs some moral high ground to justify her violation of marriage vows and she’s grasping at straws.

In your shoes, I’d have a hard time validating any of that.

This continues to be one of the issues at the heart of the divorce -- that EnablerWife and OM are presenting their relationship as "spiritually elevated" and this above reproach.

I don't know what to say to this that isn't invalidating.

[formflier]

I don't think it is wise to try and validate this. 

I would think/hope it is possible in your settlement negotiations to "clean up the language" before things are finalized.

I can't imagine it would be wise of you to move forward towards anything remotely like a final decree without either cleaning that up, or challenging it...or accurately state your charges against her.

There are several intersecting threads here.  To me it appears she "Dobson'ed you".  She created a crisis with accusations and got what she wanted.

I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I can’t get my head round how I can say that I understand that she feels afraid, that I understand that she felt threatened... which I actually can... but only in the bounds of a BPD mindset.

Why is this even on your radar, Enabler?

[Skip]

Enabler, until you radically accept her reality - everything will be confusing.

The big picture for your wife is that she is in a relationship with another man, has filed for divorce, and is living a life apart from you... yes you co-habitat, but you are no longer intimate (in all senses of the word). You two haven't fully deconstructed the family, for practical reasons, but are in the process.

1. In a UK divorce she can't simply say irreconcilable differences (no fault) - there must be fault. The lowest level fault is emotional and verbal abuse. That could be just about anything and is in the eye of the beholder. 2. She is in an affair and "active in" and employed by her church - she needs an "emotional and verbal abuse" justification to "save face". Again, emotional and verbal abuse is the lowest level thing she could claim.

"Emotional and verbal abuse" is just a vessel to transport her to her new world. She gets that you don't like it and don't think it is honorable and she has been clear that, not only does she feel no need to appease you or satisfy your values, but that your continued pursuit of it feels abusive to her.

It all seems very straight forward and moving forward. Yes, she is not on a disciplined trajectory - but most divorces are not - they wobble to the finish line.

So why are you always feeling so confused? Why does every wobble have you wondering if things have changed or can change?

I think there are few things.

The big picture for you as per your citing of James 1:12 last week implies that you see your journey as one similar to Abraham on Moriah with his son Isaac; God is testing your faith and if you persevere, there will be a reward. This is a very different reality than hers. Imagine what went Isaac though or what Abraham's wife thought.

A. You apply your thinking pattern to your interpretation of her reality and things don't line up. If you look at clinical rankings of empathy, this is one of the common impairments - the inability to see her thinking pattern and her view of reality and why this all makes sense to her. She is doing the same to you. B. Communication is totally broken down. You're both in Gottman's fourth stage communication breakdown were most everything is said and done defensively and in self-protection mode.

Until you radically accept her reality - everything will be confusing.

Skip

[empath]

How does one even introduce a new explanation for a feeling of abuse... without mentioning PDs?

Why do you need to introduce a new explanation for her feeling? I can remember asking my h to describe specific incidents when he felt abused by me, and he couldn't come up with anything specific.

[Enabler]

Skip, your comments make perfect sense. In fairness to my current thought process and why I’m thinking of this, this thread was actually spun off (not by me) from a thread by SH4. Her wife is also having an affair, and has had many. Her wife accuses her of abuse for years as well. It struck a cord with me about the danger associated with the term abuse... abuse of proven (which I know is often the point) is criminal, having an affair is not criminal (in the UK and US). It’s a bit like the difference between someone saying “you’re terrible in bed” vs “you raped me”. What part of rape does one even validate... none of it. My W actually believed she was raped on holiday, (before we met) until she didn’t.

It doesn’t feel quite as simple as just accepting that she feels that and therefore we’ll all just move forward which I know is the likely outcome. I agree that she needs a moral justification for her actions and that is what it is. FF, on any legal responses such as divorce petition response I have stated that I do not agree with her reasons for divorce. Without contesting the divorce (no intentions to do this) I cannot change the wording. The reason for divorce is not published and can only be attained by going to the court archives, so not really part of ‘my’ public record.

My favourite example (actually makes me chuckle) of how the ‘abuse’ rhetoric has been disseminated is a comment from her mother... “Enabler, you didn’t mean to abuse her, it’s not like you meant it” (coming from a woman who’s spent the last 3 years bombarding my W with leaflets about domestic abuse, newspaper cut outs of scary abuse stories, books like ‘Unravelled’ about a delusional man who planned to kill the whole family and then committed suicide in the woods instead, Siiiiiigh.

Is the conclusion here that when someone accuses you of something criminal, no part is to be validated?

This thread which I didn’t start seems as much for others as it is for me. This isn’t about my circumstances changing or being different or not accepting my current position (although don’t get me wrong I think changing the abuse narrative would remarkably change my position), this is about effective ways of dealing with serious criminal accusations.

Sorry... small additional example. Last night D6 ranted at me for making her brush her teeth, I know, bad daddy. She used words like mean, nasty, horrible. She threatened to tell her teacher and have the police take me away. Clearly I didn’t believe her and didn’t take her at all seriously, I just saiid “okay... now brush your teeth”. It got me thinking why I didn’t take her at all seriously yet I take my W’s accusations and threats seriously. I concluded it comes down to potential... my D6 isn’t going to be taken seriously and I don’t see her having much potential to action. My W... or any adult in fact, I do. Therefore I don’t respond in the same way I would with a child, which is in essence what I think the people suggest should be done.

Enabler

[Enabler]

"Emotional and verbal abuse" is just a vessel to transport her to her new world. She gets that you don't like it and don't think it is honorable and she has been clear that, not only does she feel no need to appease you or satisfy your values, but that your continued pursuit of it feels abusive to her.

It all seems very straight forward and moving forward. Yes, she is not on a disciplined trajectory - but most divorces are not - they wobble to the finish line.

That's a nice summary Skip. I get that. I might add that that 'the values' were and actually are her values, or at least the values that she protests to adhere to and spent so much time embedding in me. In essence she feels/felt abused by me holding a mirror up to her own deviation from her own values... and likely the manner in which I did that.

[sweetheart]

Your part about your 6 yr olds rant is interesting to me set against the context of validation.

Hearing behind what your daughter is saying in her rant is for me the essence of validation, so...

instead of responding with ‘okay now brush your teeth’

you might try, ‘wow you sound really cross with me right now’ wait and see if anything further comes from your daughter. If nothing she at least knows that her feelings have been acknowledged.


The other thing you keep referring to is being accused of ‘something criminal’ have you been?

An accusation of abuse is not criminal unless it has been through the criminal justice system, and then it is far from straight forward.

Moving yourself away from this type of reference for me keeps you stuck in needing to defend yourself.

[Stillhopeful4]

Great thread Enabler!

I appreciate all the responses.  I think the conclusion I have come to, with my W anyway, is that she's going to think, feel and tell stories how she wants.  It's all real to her.  It's her disordered mind.  When she's in this very long and hard downward spiral nothing anyone can say or do will get her to see things clearly.  I think that comes back to they need a reason to hate us to leave us to make it easier on them.

Enabler ((Hugs) to you.  I know you have been going through a lot lately too.

SH4

[Enabler]

Thanks Sweetheart. I was a bit brief on the D6 front as it wasn’t my primary focus. I didn’t literally give it a “great, now brush your teeth” and tend to deploy more validating terms like “sorry you feel that way” or “you must think I’m a really bad daddy”. She typically changes her tune after a small amount of get over it time and a poke or tickle.

I believe that my W has made a police complaint and/or started a file on me. She and her friends use terms such as coercive control, emotional abuse, psychological abuse and financial abuse quite freely (from what I have seen). My W has used those words in communications with me as has her OM (9 page pdf letter in Mar18). Accusations are there, formal allegations may not be there... however, having recently been on a rape trial (we actually acquitted the guy) I can see how such claims can get traction. The defendant had been on bail since May17. I don’t think  the defendant felt any solace during the last 2 years that the rape charge would be tough to ‘prove’. I’m not suggesting that accusations turn into allegations, but they could and the point I was making above about D6 is that the ‘could’ seems far more of a threat to be taken seriously with my W than D6. I’m almost positive that my W believes that there is a criminal case to answer but “she wouldn’t want to do that to the children”.

So to reduce the threat of accusations I would need to validate the feeling of abuse and somehow address how I see how she feels like she’s been abused, which in essence would require me to flirt with admitting to a criminal offence, even if it was just her definition of a criminal offence.

This could be an example that others might empathise with, and let’s for a second take me and my circumstances out of the equation... let’s assume this is 3 years ago when there was a few embers worth blowing on... W accuses me of financial abuse and being financially controlling (she actually did via D9 the other day). The facts are that she has exclusive access to £66k of cash savings, she gets exclusive access to £750 income (hers) a month, she gets access with minimal accountability to let’s say £1k a month from me. So by any letter of any law she has extremely healthy access to financial resources to meet her “needs”. Yet she feels like she doesn’t have access, she feels like she is restricted, that I withhold money and that I am financially abusive...which is a criminal offence. Now, In this example the evidence is so ludicrously obvious that she’d be unlikely to get past the police station door, but she feels like there could be a criminal case to answer should she want to... and so do some of her friends (who likely know some skewed version of the facts). I’ve showed her numbers, I’ve tried to get her involved in finances, I’ve attempted to let the plates fall where they fall. I’ve even attempted to push control AND responsibility onto her. How does one validate the feeling that someone is keeping money from them... one kinda can’t and so the only option is to ignore... which is somewhat invalidating right? In this example I’d love for her to go to the police. What about with something a little less clear cut, like “he shouted and swore at me”... now I’ve certainly done that before, and what if she felt afraid when I shouted at her? Is all fear abuse or is some fear like fear of harmless spiders or in the case of my SIL a fear of slugs? Are slugs and spiders abusive? She has an inherent fear of all raised voices (apart from her own). Not all fear aroused by someone else is a criminal offence, I know that... but she doesn’t.

Enabler

[empath]

Enabler, my h accused me of being financially and emotionally abusive, too; he has involved both his parents and the clergy team at his former church in our marriage. They all believed his description without talking with me, and they were going to help him with his divorce process when he had his mental health crisis a couple of years ago.

I haven't validated h's feelings of being abused by me; I would ask him for descriptions of the times when he felt abused. He just felt abused without the ability to recall anything specific. That's significant because h does remember when he has been wronged and carries grudges for years. It's also important because in the court system, one has to provide evidence of abuse.

Threats are a tool often used by people who seek to coerce others.

[formflier]

Threats are a tool often used by people who seek to coerce others.

Enabler,

I've been quiet for a bit while scratching my head. 

Have you talked about your wife filing for "fault" divorce before based on "abuse".  I would think I would have noticed that.  However, I also was under the impression you were doing a collaborative "no fault" type divorce.

Then I read there aren't those in the UK. 

Ultimately it's not about educating me about the divorce laws in the UK..but educating yourself (from a L that is retained by you).

Does it matter if you disprove abuse?  Does the divorce petition fall apart then? 

If there is really a lack of no fault divorce, then does it help you to prove "fault"? 

If there is not a no fault divorce, yet proving fault doesn't matter...well...then...what the heck?

I can't imagine any situation where a fault is alleged and it turns out positive for you to not address that "fault" and "truthfully establish actual provable fault" .

Perhaps best to cut it there and perhaps you can clarify.

Two real thoughts here.

Regardless of status of the legal system.  Enabler's wife manipulation has worked and continues to work on Enabler.

That's a completely separate matter from provable fault in a legal system.

Hang in there Enabler.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Under the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973 in England and Wales, anyone seeking a divorce must either prove their partner is at fault through adultery, desertion or unreasonable behaviour, or if both sides agree, they can part after two years of separation. In the absence of consent or evidence of fault, applicants must wait until they have been living apart for five years.

[formflier]

OK. 

So Enabler doesn't consent to divorce.  She can't prove abuse. 

If she wants a divorce, she has a legal pathway to move out and wait.

Does the law provide a benefit to the party "proving" adultery, abuse or unreasonable behavior?

In other words, does it matter what is provable, beyond the timeline for a divorce.

Best,

FF

[sweetheart]

skip beat me to it. Here in the U.K., divorce like EW wants would be on the grounds of ‘unreasonable behaviour’ that is what the judge sees. That is the criteria E divorce will be filed under.
Courts are not interested in the details of what occurred just that divorce is applied for on those grounds.

Only time court becomes interested is if the other person contests the divorce, that is why mediation is advised to see if this can be worked through without lots of money being spent. Mediation doesn’t however change the grounds the divorce application has been filed under.

It sounds to me that the argument for E here is a moral one, not a legal one.

What I know from this forums having learnt the hard way, is without concrete evidence you just can’t fight a negative accusation so just don’t waste your energy trying.

Over the years of my husband’s illness I have been reported to the police and adult safe guarding services because professionals initially believed my husband’s account of our marriage.

My husband felt abused, controlled, violated, bullied  and much much more besides. His accounts of how he came to feel these things were full on out there; I was starving him, spending all his money, arguing with him everyday, destroying his belongings and so on.

 What I came to understand, learnt from here, was that the energy it took to continuously defend myself against these falsehoods would eventually devastate me emotionally. Also that this was hisreality and for himit happened and felt real. Who am I to say that what he experienced is not valid. That for me is the essence of all this, his experience belongs to him, not me.

I’ve said it before on here and I sound somewhat evangelical in my extolling of how the powers of radical acceptance changed my life. Quite simply put though, it did just that. It is a powerful thing to allow someone else their version of their reality and their emotional responses to it, and be able to not feel you have to try and argue, alter or challenge them in anyway.

Not responding doesn’t mean I don’t feel something about the situation, I do, but those feelings come and go because ultimately I know what my reality is and that is all I need.

[sweetheart]

formflier] the law here in U.K. isn’t interested it what needs to be proved unless the divorce grounds are contested by E.

EW doesn’t need to prove anything under the criteria of ‘unreasonable behaviour’ she justs needs to give examples of why she feels the marriage has broken down under this criteria.

It is for E to contest the accusations in court and disprove them not the other way around.

[Enabler]

And you can disagree with the reasons for the petition  yet elect not to  contest in court. Which is what I did.

In many cases it’s used as a convenient justification for the divorce (even in mutually agreeable divorces), one person agrees to be the fall guy and accepts being the ‘unreasonable behaving spouse ’ so the couple don’t have to wait for 2 years to get the divorce finalised. In my case ‘abuse’ was accused long before divorce.

Happy new year all,

Enabler

[empath]

I have a family member who is in Ireland and in the process of getting a divorce. The quick solution would be to file under "unreasonable behavior" (abuse), but the abusive partner is refusing to do that and would contest it. So they are waiting the 2 years, and the partner has moved out of the country.

As I understand it, the 2 year waiting period is if there has been a separation in housing; otherwise, there is a longer waiting period.

I like the way Enabler has approached it, not agreeing to the allegation, but not contesting. That keeps the emotional fuel to a minimum.