How to go forward?

[kiwigal]

Im just trying to get some clarity.. so forgive me for rehashing an issue:
 
My SIL is adamant she doesn't know what the issue is. Ive written it out no less than five times! However, she doesn't have the language for ownership.
So Im truly wasting my time.

In addition, my therapist helped me identify that she has never accepted me because she views me as a threat. So there's that.

I offered to do a counselling session and her and her hubby didnt want to, didn't feel it was necessary, that it wasn't Biblical and so on.
That is fine, I've respected that.

I really want to move forward into a polite relationship where my husband is the main port of call, where the cousins can have fun together in short times? I thought we had agreed to move forward - however, the other night my SIL sobbed her heart out to my mother saying she loved me and didn't know what the issue is?

Do I just ignored that and go forward anyway? Do I give it time? Do I stay out of it?
What is the wisest way to achieve a new normal?
I need my BPDFAMILY wisdom!  

[pursuingJoy]

kiwigal, big hugs.  Don't apologize for rehashing. That's what we're here for. I soo get what you're going through.

the other night my SIL sobbed her heart out to my mother saying she loved me and didn't know what the issue is?

In your other post you said you talked to your mom about how acting sympathetic creates an unhealthy triangulation. Do you feel like you'll have her support if it happens again? I guess my bigger question is, are you worried the same dynamic will repeat between your SIL and your mom, or do you just need to work through the emotion that it happened at all?

It is a really frustrating dynamic you're in. My H often sympathizes with his mom, unwittingly compounding issues and placing me into the role of aggressor. I don't have to buy into their shared perspective, and I can survive it, but it does make things more complicated. I easily fall into victimhood, which is counterproductive.

Do I just ignored that and go forward anyway? Do I give it time? Do I stay out of it?

Not sure it's wise to ignore it and I don't think you have. You addressed the triangulation with your mom and H.    You have control over your own emotional reactions to their behavior going forward, whatever that looks like.  You've considered radical acceptance of your situation balanced with what a positive relationship might look like.   

What is the wisest way to achieve a new normal?

Establish your boundaries (ie, think through your values that you want to protect) and work to calmly, simply, clearly hold the line. It can be nerve-wracking because people push and get upset. In the long run, calmly maintaining a clear boundary has a calming effect on others and the situation. It's worked for me in the past and I hope it does again. 

I'm in the middle of this too, friend. You're not alone. 
pj

[Panda39]

Hi Kiwigal,

The triangulation in your post jumped out at me too. By going to your mom your SIL makes it look like this...SIL=victim, Mom=Rescuer, You=Persecutor.

Link to more on the Karpman Drama Triangle... https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

You have communicated the issue to your SIL she is not willing to work on it.  I would just ignore her feigning ignorance stuff. If your mom brings it up with you I would just tell her it's between you and SIL.  By JADING (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) to your mom you keep the drama triangle going.  I know none of it feels fair but those that know you will believe you, some might believe your SIL initially but will figure it out and still others will fall for your SIL hook, line, and sinker (do you want those people in your life anyway?).

Unfortunately, this situation is about trying to get comfortable in an uncomfortable situation.

Hang in there,
Panda39

[GaGrl]

You say you have written out the issue for your SIL at least five times and she is unwilling to own it. Yet she continues to ask, in the triangulated situation with your mother. So -- either the communications to her are not something she can grasp, or she really is that self-protective or obtuse.

Imagine she were in front of you, in a calm situation, and asked, "What is the issue between us? What do I need to make amends for? "

What would you say? Is it specific and concrete enough for your SIL to grasp? She may not be an abstract thinker.

[kiwigal]

You say you have written out the issue for your SIL at least five times and she is unwilling to own it. Yet she continues to ask, in the triangulated situation with your mother. So -- either the communications to her are not something she can grasp, or she really is that self-protective or obtuse.

Imagine she were in front of you, in a calm situation, and asked, "What is the issue between us? What do I need to make amends for? "

What would you say? Is it specific and concrete enough for your SIL to grasp? She may not be an abstract thinker.

I so appreciate this question.
This helps me to tease it out.
On one hand it has been pretty concrete; "are you willing to hear how that felt for me?" was the invitation.

I confronted her on some talking and she owned it saying it was "unfortunate"..
And then I told her that it had hurt me and asked her if she were willing to hear how that felt for me.
The response I got was a lot of 'drama' around "Ive done this and you did that".. and "you've singled me out".. and "Im offended with you".
 
So I would probably say to her, in person "Discussing my belief systems in the family, with someone who already thinks were off the wall, is not helpful to relationship and loses my trust"

On the other hand I also think the is just a sample of behaviours that represent the bottom line of the issue, which is that I no longer want to be Cinderella in the family. Asking for respect was never going to be easy, unfortunately, because they are all used to 16 years of me being entirely compliant.

[kiwigal]

Hi Kiwigal,

The triangulation in your post jumped out at me too. By going to your mom your SIL makes it look like this...SIL=victim, Mom=Rescuer, You=Persecutor.

Link to more on the Karpman Drama Triangle... https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

You have communicated the issue to your SIL she is not willing to work on it.  I would just ignore her feigning ignorance stuff. If your mom brings it up with you I would just tell her it's between you and SIL.  By JADING (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) to your mom you keep the drama triangle going.  I know none of it feels fair but those that know you will believe you, some might believe your SIL initially but will figure it out and still others will fall for your SIL hook, line, and sinker (do you want those people in your life anyway?).

Unfortunately, this situation is about trying to get comfortable in an uncomfortable situation.

Hang in there,
Panda39

Youre so right. I got caught up into JADEing with my mum. She was empathic towards me but it positioned me as needing to justify myself.
I guess at the core of it, I don't want to have relationship with my in laws. They don't care about me and I guess I don't want to have to pretend anymore. And I guess I have to let others make their own judgements of me, regardless. I just kind of know that a lot of people are won over by them and that I will look awful and it really hurts.

[GaGrl]

This is helpful.

What I'm hearing is that there are two things going on with you and your SIL.

1) SIL's actions/behavior that was/is inappropriate.

2) How you felt about what she did and your need to have her "hear" this.

If she had an inappropriate conversation with someone in the family that violated your privacy (and hurt you), that was HER behavior -- and if you brought this to her attention and she owned it and apologized for it, then it should be done.

If you did not feel the issue was resolved, or if it continues to occur in different forms, then your need to "have her listen to how it made you feel" isn't getting anywhere. She is responsible for her continued (good or bad) behavior -- she can't feel your emotions for you. And you don't need to ask if she wants to hear how her behavior made you feel -- you can combine that with calling her on her behavior.

 "When I find that you discussed XYZ, I feel violated and disrespected. This makes it very difficult to trust you, so I will have to be more discreet with anything I share with you, unless we work to rebuild trust. "

At this point, you want a certain behavior from your husband's family, correct? Respect. They don't have to understand your feelings and emotions in order to treat you with respect -- they simply need to learn that you have values and boundaries that result in a consequence when those boundaries are crossed.

I think what might be as difficult for you as setting and holding boundaries will be accepting that your emotions and emotions aren't something they need to understand, and that they may never make the effort to listen or understand.

[Harri]

I think what might be as difficult for you as setting and holding boundaries will be accepting that your emotions and emotions aren't something they need to understand, and that they may never make the effort to listen or understand.

Well said!  A lot of us struggle with this.

[formflier]

Did you write it out 5 times the same way or did you try something different for each of the 5 times.

Can you share here one of those versions or the version if there is only 1?

I'm very curious about her "not being able to own it".

It's one thing to say that you don't agree with someone, but to deny not understanding the issue, when you have read it.  Well..that's odd.

Best,

FF

[kiwigal]

This is helpful.

What I'm hearing is that there are two things going on with you and your SIL.

1) SIL's actions/behavior that was/is inappropriate.

2) How you felt about what she did and your need to have her "hear" this.

If she had an inappropriate conversation with someone in the family that violated your privacy (and hurt you), that was HER behavior -- and if you brought this to her attention and she owned it and apologized for it, then it should be done.

If you did not feel the issue was resolved, or if it continues to occur in different forms, then your need to "have her listen to how it made you feel" isn't getting anywhere. She is responsible for her continued (good or bad) behavior -- she can't feel your emotions for you. And you don't need to ask if she wants to hear how her behavior made you feel -- you can combine that with calling her on her behavior.

 "When I find that you discussed XYZ, I feel violated and disrespected. This makes it very difficult to trust you, so I will have to be more discreet with anything I share with you, unless we work to rebuild trust. "

At this point, you want a certain behavior from your husband's family, correct? Respect. They don't have to understand your feelings and emotions in order to treat you with respect -- they simply need to learn that you have values and boundaries that result in a consequence when those boundaries are crossed.

I think what might be as difficult for you as setting and holding boundaries will be accepting that your emotions and emotions aren't something they need to understand, and that they may never make the effort to listen or understand.

This is so helpful.
She owned it with no apology. Ie it was unfortunate (her words) but justified that she has the right to talk to whoever she likes and I am the bad person for not seeing her good intentions.
Where can you go with that?

[kiwigal]

This is helpful.

What I'm hearing is that there are two things going on with you and your SIL.

1) SIL's actions/behavior that was/is inappropriate.

2) How you felt about what she did and your need to have her "hear" this.

If she had an inappropriate conversation with someone in the family that violated your privacy (and hurt you), that was HER behavior -- and if you brought this to her attention and she owned it and apologized for it, then it should be done.

If you did not feel the issue was resolved, or if it continues to occur in different forms, then your need to "have her listen to how it made you feel" isn't getting anywhere. She is responsible for her continued (good or bad) behavior -- she can't feel your emotions for you. And you don't need to ask if she wants to hear how her behavior made you feel -- you can combine that with calling her on her behavior.

 "When I find that you discussed XYZ, I feel violated and disrespected. This makes it very difficult to trust you, so I will have to be more discreet with anything I share with you, unless we work to rebuild trust. "

At this point, you want a certain behavior from your husband's family, correct? Respect. They don't have to understand your feelings and emotions in order to treat you with respect -- they simply need to learn that you have values and boundaries that result in a consequence when those boundaries are crossed.

I think what might be as difficult for you as setting and holding boundaries will be accepting that your emotions and emotions aren't something they need to understand, and that they may never make the effort to listen or understand.

I absolutely loove what your wrote with the boundary versus emotion and staying the bottom line!
That’s soo good. I think I’ve been caught trying to feel heard rather than just hold a boundary. Brilliant help! Thank you

[GaGrl]

This differentiation is huge -- it is an important step forward.

(For me, I could separate boundaries for trying to be heard as long as my husband and I were dealing with his uBPD/BPD exz-wife, but wow! Did I mix it up with my mom who has several BPD traits and had a uNPD stepmother!)

So she "kinda" acknowledged what she did but defended her right to do what she wants?

Fine. Sometimes the consequence of the boundary is simply that one gets called out on it, sometimes there is a further consequence.

Imagine, again, the face-to-face conversation:

 SIL:  (Sobbing) "I just don't know what I did?"

 You: (Calm) "You discussed matters I confided to you as private with people who had no right to know. That was a breach of trust. Whether you believe you had that right or not, I can't confide in you anymore. I'd like for us to rebuild trust. How do you think that might be possible?"

Then let her "sit with it" for awhile. She might never agree that she doesn't have the right to discuss your private business. That's OK. What you have learned is her intent and her limitations, and that you have to limit your conversations to mundane matters.

See...their limitations might be emotional limitations. They might not be capable of emotional understanding of empathy.

[kiwigal]

This differentiation is huge -- it is an important step forward.

(For me, I could separate boundaries for trying to be heard as long as my husband and I were dealing with his uBPD/BPD exz-wife, but wow! Did I mix it up with my mom who has several BPD traits and had a uNPD stepmother!)

So she "kinda" acknowledged what she did but defended her right to do what she wants?

Fine. Sometimes the consequence of the boundary is simply that one gets called out on it, sometimes there is a further consequence.

Imagine, again, the face-to-face conversation:

 SIL:  (Sobbing) "I just don't know what I did?"

 You: (Calm) "You discussed matters I confided to you as private with people who had no right to know. That was a breach of trust. Whether you believe you had that right or not, I can't confide in you anymore. I'd like for us to rebuild trust. How do you think that might be possible?"

Then let her "sit with it" for awhile. She might never agree that she doesn't have the right to discuss your private business. That's OK. What you have learned is her intent and her limitations, and that you have to limit your conversations to mundane matters.

See...their limitations might be emotional limitations. They might not be capable of emotional understanding of empathy.

I am crying. This is so healing for me! Thank you!

[GaGrl]

We get it. We're here for you.

You did some really important work this week!

[kiwigal]

We get it. We're here for you.

You did some really important work this week!

Thank you thank you thank you.. I so value having this family here! 

[kiwigal]

kiwigal, big hugs.  Don't apologize for rehashing. That's what we're here for. I soo get what you're going through.
 
I easily fall into victimhood, which is counterproductive.
 

Not sure it's wise to ignore it and I don't think you have. You addressed the triangulation with your mom and H.    You have control over your own emotional reactions to their behavior going forward, whatever that looks like.  You've considered radical acceptance of your situation balanced with what a positive relationship might look like.   
 

Establish your boundaries (ie, think through your values that you want to protect) and work to calmly, simply, clearly hold the line. It can be nerve-wracking because people push and get upset. In the long run, calmly maintaining a clear boundary has a calming effect on others and the situation. It's worked for me in the past and I hope it does again. 

I'm in the middle of this too, friend. You're not alone. 
pj

ALL THIS  I keep reading it and re reading it. Letting it be balm to my heart. I think this is key "calmly maintaining a clear boundary". I think this is key.
My Dad was my hero in all this drama. When my mum told him about my SIL tears  he calmly said "theres quite a big difference between "I don't know what I got wrong" and "I am wondering what I can do to put it right".
I need to learn how to hold onto that calmness and let it breathe into the mess.

[GaGrl]

So now you know (if you didn't know before) that your Dad is a right-thinking human being who can be used as a sounding board. That's fantastic! What is the relationship between your husband and your dad? A good relationship between them would give your husband a good perspective on family life.

My dad was a rock when it came to his MIL -- she was uNPD/BPD and had been my mom's stepmother since Mom was six years old. Dad put distance between our family and the in-laws, moving 200 miles away. This gave my mom space that she never had before. He did not hesitate to call out his MIL when she crossed boundaries. Our lives were much calmer because of my dad's support and protection.

[kiwigal]

So now you know (if you didn't know before) that your Dad is a right-thinking human being who can be used as a sounding board. That's fantastic! What is the relationship between your husband and your dad? A good relationship between them would give your husband a good perspective on family life.

My dad was a rock when it came to his MIL -- she was uNPD/BPD and had been my mom's stepmother since Mom was six years old. Dad put distance between our family and the in-laws, moving 200 miles away. This gave my mom space that she never had before. He did not hesitate to call out his MIL when she crossed boundaries. Our lives were much calmer because of my dad's support and protection.

You know I didn't really identify how sound my Dads thinking is. When my husband and I were getting married, he could see the writing on the wall with my in laws and gently asked my husband to take good care of me. They have a good relationship and my hubby likes him.. I think I will look to him much more. Thank you tons GaGrl. You are such a ROCK to me! I so appreciate you.

[kiwigal]

I just wanted to write up my conclusion to all this... as a way of clarifying it myself and also knowing if anyone else sees anything Ive missed.

Background:

A year went passed after me sending the invitation to talk with a counsellor. I have kept relationship low to now contact. Polite but brief.
A month prior to Christmas was that my BIL rang me up and tried one last time to arrange to talk without a counsellor. Had he approached that conversation with a genuine heart to listen, I would have done so. But his use of loaded wording, phrasing and positioning such as "Ive told my wife she is not to talk to you herself" reinforced why Ive held to a counsellor being present. Although the conversation was not nice, and I was told I was the problem, I calmly reinforced that the door remains open to talk on the terms I have set: with a counsellor and I asked them what assurances they needed to ensure the get together was comfortable. I got no reply.

At our get together, a month later, that is when my SIL (the wife) sobbed on my moms shoulder that she "didn't know what was wrong". Her and I actually interacted okay. She felt she could hug me and say "hi beautiful". I hugged her back and told her that the event looked so pretty. This is likely a victim role she is taking in sobbing to my mum, enabled by her hubby in the absence of the right tools and insights to resolve conflict adequately. This is a pattern in their lives so I don't need to take it so personally.

Therefore, I am not going to do anything to respond in light of that.

I will let it be and wait for our next get together to reinforce the new normal: polite, enjoying the nieces and nephews, but safe.
If I do get 'sprung' by her, with tears. I will calmly say "when I find you discussed matters with people, who I didn't give you permission to, I feel disrespected. Whether or not you feel you have a right to or not, it makes it hard for me to trust. Do you have any ideas for how we could rebuild trust?"... and wait (thanks Gagrl.. this wording is awesome!).

On a whole, the family is a dysfunctional unit who cant accept me because of the ramifications of my MIL bpd behaviour - her dishing out of status in the family and pitting the siblings against one another. I need to give myself permission to softly grieve the loss of the dream, when we are together, and to allow space for that emotionally. Hopefully that will lessen over time.

I need to work on separating my emotional needs from boundaries. Ie, choosing respect over love. Therefore, my tendency to rescue needs to be curbed. Including wanting to rescue my SIL from her unbearable feelings of guilt and shame, or the communication rules of her marriage, by stepping in to apologise, alleviate, or meet her on terms that jeopardise my mental wellbeing.

I also need to look for new ways to meet those longings for connection, belonging and family. I need to consider that there are other people who can provide the fun and enjoyment that we hoped for, with the in laws.

I need to accept too, that our reputation will continue to look muddied and that it's not my responsibility to remedy that. I need to be on my guard for patterns of triangulation that will continue to exist and to develop a manual of skills and strategies that I refer to. Such as the use of BIFF, the empowerment triangle, etc.

[GaGrl]

I don't see anything that you've missed.

In fact, you might use this as a guide -- when things feel off kilter, come back and do a reality check against this post.

You are on to something about grieving the loss of a dream. I know I had to go through the grieving process when I accepted that my mom and I were never going to have the type of mother-daughter closeness and intimacy that I had thought we should have. I radically accepted her few BPD-like traits and worked on boundaries successfully -- and I SO admire that, with no role model of a mother, she created herself as a mother and did an amazing job of it. But the grieving is real.  You might want to look at the stages of grieving -- Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.

[kiwigal]

I don't see anything that you've missed.

In fact, you might use this as a guide -- when things feel off kilter, come back and do a reality check against this post.

You are on to something about grieving the loss of a dream. I know I had to go through the grieving process when I accepted that my mom and I were never going to have the type of mother-daughter closeness and intimacy that I had thought we should have. I radically accepted her few BPD-like traits and worked on boundaries successfully -- and I SO admire that, with no role model of a mother, she created herself as a mother and did an amazing job of it. But the grieving is real.  You might want to look at the stages of grieving -- Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.

Thanks GaGrl.
I looked over the grief cycle and it made so much sense.

One of the questions I still have is;
Is it normal to feel like sometimes I’m so wrong?
I have moments where I question myself and think “maybe I’ve made all the wrong conclusions about her and she is lovely and I’m just a thug”
It plagues me because it’s hard to pin her on anything if you know what I mean?
Like with the scenario above...
My husband and I both agree that her unfortunate mentioning of information lacked so much discretion. That she didn’t ask if she could share. And that anyone would usually come back straight away, upon hearing someone was hurt, and say “I’m just so sorry, I want you to know that I didn’t intend to cause harm”...
We already know she has a track record of leaking indiscreetly and yet still... I keep thinking over her tears to my mom and her texts saying “we’re in the dark” and feel like I’m awful.
Is this kind of self questioning normal?

[formflier]

I think the self reflection is 100% normal.  Add in people that are actively suggesting (or worse) "It's you, not me.." and then you can see how it gets "worse".

How far away does your pwBPD live?   

Would it be possible to invite her to a coffee and shopping excursion.  Kind of an "oh by the way" thing.

"Frontal assaults" (pardon my military references...yet I hope you get the picture) rarely work with pwBPD.  So while I support the effort to go to a counselor, I'm not surprised it went nowhere.

You need a "flanking sneak attack" that she doesn't see coming.

For what purpose?

Can we agree that a "normal" relationship is not going to happen?  So what if you took the initiative to establish a "chit chat and shopping" relationship, while sorting out in your mind that she will leak any info you give her.

So...I'm guessing you will be ok with her indiscreetly leaking that you like "jeggings"' instead of "real jeans" (or vice versa). 

The big picture I'm trying to move you toward is for YOU to establish a relationship that can work.

Yes we can help you with responses when she "goes fishing" for more.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[kiwigal]

I think the self reflection is 100% normal.  Add in people that are actively suggesting (or worse) "It's you, not me.." and then you can see how it gets "worse".

How far away does your pwBPD live?   

Would it be possible to invite her to a coffee and shopping excursion.  Kind of an "oh by the way" thing.

"Frontal assaults" (pardon my military references...yet I hope you get the picture) rarely work with pwBPD.  So while I support the effort to go to a counselor, I'm not surprised it went nowhere.

You need a "flanking sneak attack" that she doesn't see coming.

For what purpose?

Can we agree that a "normal" relationship is not going to happen?  So what if you took the initiative to establish a "chit chat and shopping" relationship, while sorting out in your mind that she will leak any info you give her.

So...I'm guessing you will be ok with her indiscreetly leaking that you like "jeggings"' instead of "real jeans" (or vice versa). 

The big picture I'm trying to move you toward is for YOU to establish a relationship that can work.

Yes we can help you with responses when she "goes fishing" for more.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

It’s so valuable knowing that the self reflection is normal!

She lives 4 hours away and we hardly see each other to be honest - so I guess not a lot has changed at all in our relationship other than her not feeling she can drop in for surprise visits .. which I always felt was awkward anyway.

But I like your idea of setting the tone for how I want relationship to be. That is so wise. I don’t want to talk anything over but maybe I could say something like:
“Thank you for a fun evening the other night celebrating mum and dad. It was so neat seeing the cousins enjoy one another. Would you guys like to meet up at XYZ? We were thinking (this date) could work. I know our kids would love to see yours! No pressure.” ... I guess that way I can just ease things into a new norm?

I feel like I’m contradicting myself doing it because last year I said I didn’t want to fall back into pretend relationship..( based on my experience that she plays power games with me)... but maybe I just have to let that go?

[GaGrl]

It's not so much a "pretend" relationship as a "protected" relationship.

She has proved herself incapable of holding private information within your relationship. Therefore, the sharing of information inside the relationship will be innocuous, surface-level info that you wouldn't mind seeing on social media (love the jeans vs. leggings example!).

That's OK -- lots of people have these types of friendships. It's just too bad she's a family member with whom you wanted and expected a more intimate relationship.

[kiwigal]

It's not so much a "pretend" relationship as a "protected" relationship.

She has proved herself incapable of holding private information within your relationship. Therefore, the sharing of information inside the relationship will be innocuous, surface-level info that you wouldn't mind seeing on social media (love the jeans vs. leggings example!).

That's OK -- lots of people have these types of friendships. It's just too bad she's a family member with whom you wanted and expected a more intimate relationship.

I had a small break through today which I owe to you GaGrl. I feel like I finally found enough clarity, reading over your messages - to consider radical acceptance and a surface friendship. So I sent my SIL in a text, thanking her for a wonderful evening and telling her that I enjoyed seeing the cousins altogether. I thanked her for her Christmas present to our family and attached a picture of it in use and then said I was looking forward to seeing everyone again at the next event.
After I sent it, I was talking with my Mom, whom my SIL had cried on.
As we were talking, her response came through. It was okay.. just brief and somewhat aloof. She replied "Thanks. Thought it would suit".

The thing was... it was so vindicating. My Mom got to witness how incongruent it is to on one hand sob and tell her that she loved me, and didn't know what she'd done. But on the other hand, respond in a way that was short and without any reciprocity to my warmth.
She immediately could see the dynamic in action.

But mostly... I felt so FREE to get to choose how I want the relationship to look from now on. I have no doubt it won't be smooth. But it finally feels lighter.
I just cannot thank my BPD family enough and especially you GaGrl and also PJ and FF. I have and will continue to come back to these notes. 

[formflier]

You are welcome!

A couple "sayings" to go with this.

When someone tells and shows you, consistently over time, who they are...please believe them.

I think I'm attributing this correctly to Oprah or one of the people she had on her shows.  "You have to meet people where they are."

Count yourself lucky that you know who people are in your life...no surprises.  Sure it may still be disappointing, but personally...I find disappointment easier to deal with that "surprise" or "shock", (assuming bad surprise)

Keep up the good work kiwigal!

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

You are very welcome!

The "when people show you who they are, believe them" quote is from Maya Angelou.

The Oprah quite comes from the humanist school of psychotherapy -- start where they are -- but it applies to many types of relationships  It's a journey.

[kiwigal]

You are welcome!

A couple "sayings" to go with this.

When someone tells and shows you, consistently over time, who they are...please believe them.

I think I'm attributing this correctly to Oprah or one of the people she had on her shows.  "You have to meet people where they are."

Count yourself lucky that you know who people are in your life...no surprises.  Sure it may still be disappointing, but personally...I find disappointment easier to deal with that "surprise" or "shock", (assuming bad surprise)

Keep up the good work kiwigal!

Best,

FF

FF. I LOVE this. Thanks so so much!

[kiwigal]

You are very welcome!

The "when people show you who they are, believe them" quote is from Maya Angelou.

The Oprah quite comes from the humanist school of psychotherapy -- start where they are -- but it applies to many types of relationships  It's a journey.

It so is. Wish I could bring you flowers GaGrl! 

[kiwigal]

Its been a year and I thought I'd update this post. If anything, for my own record. After the emotional drama from my SIL I didn't engage (neither did she). The next interaction she had was mid-year with hubby - it was entitled and full of gaslighting me. Her husband was the same.

My hubby got to see the extent of the toxicity and stood up to them. This helped me identify that the greatest threat of my in-law's behaviour had been the triangulation and divide it created between my hubby and me. We agreed I needed time to heal and disengage.

I am discovering freedom and forgiveness and strengthening my boundaries. I let myself be wildly angry and sobbingly sad for what would never be. I also worked on my self-care and prioritised my wellbeing. I researched narcissism for hours. I no longer feel doubtful as to whether I've explained myself enough: I've come to realise that I don't need to. A boundary is a boundary. Hubby and I have pulled together tight and have agreed on actions/ words/ scenarios and expect narcissistic games at every interaction. We hope one day for a 'new normal' but are allowing time for our distance to be a natural consequence to the disrespect. This may take time!

Im so grateful to everyone here and excited for the strength another year can bring!

[formflier]

Hey...so glad and thankful for this post!

My hubby got to see the extent of the toxicity and stood up to them. This helped me identify that the greatest threat of my in-law's behaviour had been the triangulation and divide it created between my hubby and me. We agreed I needed time to heal and disengage.
 

I'd be interested in reading more details.  Especially if you can identify a "tipping point" where your hubby was like "ohh...that...yeah I see that now"

I'm so pleased for you guys and wish you the best for this coming year.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

kiwigal, it did my heart good to read your update. This had the potential to go in a number of directions but the end resulted in firming up boundaries, healthy prioritizing and a closer relationship with your H. I'm happy for you and I also know that parts of this are painful...wishing we could carry some of the pain for you. Wishing you healing, peace, continued growth and strength! Big hug.   What a way to start the new year!

pj 

[kiwigal]

It's so interesting reflecting! I love your question... thank you for asking because it helps me to process!

I had disengaged by being unavailable and busy due to figuring out study online with Covid and our country went into lockdown. I actually went into online therapy and began processing my own trauma and tendency to over-function. So I gave myself permission to heal, for however long it took.

A few months later, SIL text a question to hubby - likely intended to expose me as being negligent around something that, unbeknown to her, hubby was responsible for. She was demanding and came across entitled - and he was taken back by her behaviour. When he took ownership and affirmed me, she then went on about just wanting to have good communication etc. Hubby questioned why she wasn't able to ask me directly if she wanted good communication. She then phoned him and proceeded to unleash her anger against me as to why she couldn't talk to me and my inherent faultiness. Her hubby then got on the phone to my hubby and did the same and emasculated him for not putting me in my place as "head of the home". (gag).

I was away for the weekend at the time and oblivious to it all. Not wanting to ruin my weekend, he had to deal with it on his own and process the emotion without support. It was perhaps the first time hubby got to experience the extent of it - the patriarchy, positioning,  heart-pounding, palm-sweating, shaking, dry-tongued, not knowing what to say etc.

I hadn't even got through the door before he was needing to process and make sense of how crazy-making it felt. Then I got to watch as he dealt with the ruminating and wishing he had answers while I affirmed him that he had dealt with it the best he could.

In retrospect, getting educated through this site and being brave enough to disengage was the healthiest thing I did for myself and my marriage and my kids 

Hey...so glad and thankful for this post!

I'd be interested in reading more details.  Especially if you can identify a "tipping point" where your hubby was like "ohh...that...yeah I see that now"

I'm so pleased for you guys and wish you the best for this coming year.

Best,

FF

[kiwigal]

Aw PJ  I am just SO grateful to the likes of you here. Especially the words of wisdom you have shared along the way! 

kiwigal, it did my heart good to read your update. This had the potential to go in a number of directions but the end resulted in firming up boundaries, healthy prioritizing and a closer relationship with your H. I'm happy for you and I also know that parts of this are painful...wishing we could carry some of the pain for you. Wishing you healing, peace, continued growth and strength! Big hug.   What a way to start the new year!

pj 

[formflier]

In retrospect, getting educated through this site and being brave enough to disengage was the healthiest thing I did for myself and my marriage and my kids  :heart

So...can you describe your journey some?  I know for me, there were times (not many) when I wished I could be back in the old days of ignorance. 

What were some of the more troubling things you learned?  How did you cope?

What were some of the more empowering things you learned?  How did those change your life?

And...maybe the million dollar question (to be answered after a few of your favorite beverages)...what's  the next step for kiwigal

Best,

FF

[kiwigal]

I love this reflecting. Thank you, FF... I can't speak enough about how healing it is.

My journey started 19yrs ago when I got engaged to my husband where, from the moment the ring was on my finger, my inlaws became intrusive, entitled and positioning. It created a lot of conflict. After thousands of dollars of counselling for anxiety, one day a therapist directed me here. It was reading through this site that I had an "aha" moment... and that was this;
"they don't actually care what I feel".

I knew my husband saw most of the treatment as benign. But on one occasion I confronted it. He got to witness the unfolding gaslighting and dehumanisation. The less I said - the more they raged and showed their true colours to us both.

The most troubling thing/s I learned;

~ that my lack of individuation, autonomy and trauma history had meant I had allowed the gaslighting and alienation. I coped by digging deep into my story and sharing it with trusted others/ therapists.

~ that they would act so divisively in my marriage and family. I coped by educating myself and them, and holding very clear boundaries such as "when you do that, I feel alone and that my trust is broken. I need XYZ". Or - "it's interesting they are talking to you, but not actually talking to me?" Or - "I'm not being difficult here, I'm just asking for adult considerations."

~ that they wouldn't change. I coped by disengaging and establishing for myself, my bottom line of needs for any sort of reconciliation. That bottom line got really low overtime...
I need an apology
I need acknowledgement of mutual pain
I need to hear that we just need a new beginning
I need one positive statement about me
Today: I'm only interested in mutual respect and where there is none, there is no relationship.

The most empowering thing I learned was: My autonomy is valuable and I am enough.
That gave me the courage to focus my life on what is good, beautiful, healthy and to begin to learn to wean myself off the protective/survival mode of functioning.

Going forward
~ I am now studying to be a therapist myself with a passion for working with children and young people experiencing trauma - including standing up to systemic toxicity  

~ Is it strange to say that I feel glad for all I've been through?

~ Every day I set aside one hour to journal and process the anger/pain/regret/grief/loss/trauma/confusion etc of everything. I do this without self-judgment and allow myself to tune into my bodies experience. I often write letters to them - sometimes the same one over and over, in which I tell them my reality - and then I delete them knowing they will never get it. Never see my side. However, lately, I have found my letters have become more of a thankyou. A thank you for the opportunity to get grounded and to work through my own story. I wouldn't wish this journey on a single soul, but I also know I wouldn't be where I am today without it either.



 

So...can you describe your journey some?  I know for me, there were times (not many) when I wished I could be back in the old days of ignorance. 

What were some of the more troubling things you learned?  How did you cope?

What were some of the more empowering things you learned?  How did those change your life?

And...maybe the million dollar question (to be answered after a few of your favorite beverages)...what's  the next step for kiwigal

Best,

FF

[formflier]

~ Is it strange to say that I feel glad for all I've been through?
 
 

Not in the least...

On the one hand, I wouldn't wish my journey on anyone...yet...it is undeniable that as a result of the journey I am more mature, more empathetic...definitely more able to look at myself and sort through relationship messes.

Relationships are messy..they just are.

So...I would not want to switch my journey either, even though I wouldn't want to go through it again.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I agree. I have so much more insight to my own FOO and my own behaviors because I had to put the effort into stabilizing my new marriage with a uBPD/NPD ex in the picture. Like FF, I wouldn't wish the journey on anyone, yet...so valuable.

[pursuingJoy]

Great thread. 

[kiwigal]

So love hearing the wise words of the experiences here agreeing that this journey gives you an insight for all relationships - and realistic expectations too.
I so value this family!