To Lawyer up or stick with mediatio

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I was married for 14 years to a man with BPD.  We were very young when we got married (23/22). I came from a religious background that told me love would work it out.

Everything in life has been against him. If his stepdad had not discouraged music as a career he'd have been famous. If his mother had not been so religious he would have insisted we use birth control so we didn't have any kids. If I had been able to read his mind I would have gotten an abortion. If his mom had stayed with his dad (alcoholic/drug addict/abuser) she would not have married his step-dad. If his dad had not been an alcoholic he'd be a rich kid and have no worries. Bad stuff always happens to him, and if we all made better choices he would be happy.

For years I thought he had depression and that he also had angry outbursts. I encouraged him to go to therapy but he didn't think anything was wrong with him but bad luck and the world being against him. At his worst he stayed out late and came home crying that he wanted to die, or he'd disappear for a whole day while the kids and I waited for him to come home and spend time with us, or punch a hole in the wall and go to sleep.  He started taking anti-depressants which seemed to take the edge off.  Until they didn't. I have him an ultimatum to try therapy and he went, but that turned into a disaster when he claimed the therapist encouraged him to have affairs.

I ran it all, like a good little co-dependent. Paid every bill, cleaned the house, fawned over him, worked full-time from home so we could save on childcare, reassured him when he was at his lowest, accepted his criticisms as the gospel truth, and treated him like he was my dream come true. When people didn't match our narrative they disappeared from our lives. He had an affairs and I told no one. I created a perfect little bubble.

I tried to ignore the affairs. He seemed remorseful. I was tired. He wanted to try an open marriage so we did. And it seemed to help, because one of his complaints was that he was sexually deprived. But the patterns were all there in time.

I had enough. I started my own therapy and told him he should too. Told him I did not want to be intimate with him anymore. He was very angry and told me that I was depressed and that if I could just be a happier person he would be happier etc. but he did go. After about 3 months I was ready to ask for a separation. It got ugly. He told my parents and his mother I was having an affair (we had an open relationship, with open communication about what we did, but ironically I was seeing no one else). He left the house and got drunk and drove himself home multiple nights in a row. We tried therapy but he just criticized me the whole time and the therapist released us before package was complete. He quit his individual therapy.

We used a mediator, at his suggestion. To my absolute surprise he wanted 50/50 custody of the kids, and I didn't want to fight. We would split every single thing down the middle.

He is not complying to our agreement.  He cries poverty, and blames me, telling me this is what I wanted and I did this to myself when I ask him to contribute to his obligations.  Now I believe he is committing fraud by claiming to pay his mother and aunt for childcare in attempt to balance out our expenses. I am afraid of more financial burdens in the future due to his abuse of our agreement.

The next step would be to get a lawyer, but that is going to be so expensive.  I don't have the money so will have to borrow it from my parents, if they even have enough. Wondering if anyone in similar circumstances has any advice? Is it worth paying a lawyer to litigate (and expect less cooperation from him and nasty fighting) or better to keep using mediator and/or taking financial hits until kid #3 (4 year old) is no longer a dependent?

[elijahlopeez]

I was married for 14 years to a man with BPD.  We were very young when we got married (23/22). I came from a religious background that told me love would work it out.

Everything in life has been against him. If his stepdad had not discouraged music as a career he'd have been famous. If his mother had not been so religious he would have insisted we use birth control so we didn't have any kids. If I had been able to read his mind I would have gotten an abortion. If his mom had stayed with his dad (alcoholic/drug addict/abuser) she would not have married his step-dad. If his dad had not been an alcoholic he'd be a rich kid and have no worries. Bad stuff always happens to him, and if we all made better choices he would be happy.

For years I thought he had depression and that he also had angry outbursts. I encouraged him to go to therapy but he didn't think anything was wrong with him but bad luck and the world being against him. At his worst he stayed out late and came home crying that he wanted to die, or he'd disappear for a whole day while the kids and I waited for him to come home and spend time with us, or punch a hole in the wall and go to sleep.  He started taking anti-depressants which seemed to take the edge off.  Until they didn't. I have him an ultimatum to try therapy and he went, but that turned into a disaster when he claimed the therapist encouraged him to have affairs.

I ran it all, like a good little co-dependent. Paid every bill, cleaned the house, fawned over him, worked full-time from home so we could save on childcare, reassured him when he was at his lowest, accepted his criticisms as the gospel truth, and treated him like he was my dream come true. When people didn't match our narrative they disappeared from our lives. He had an affairs and I told no one. I created a perfect little bubble.

I tried to ignore the affairs. He seemed remorseful. I was tired. He wanted to try an open marriage so we did. And it seemed to help, because one of his complaints was that he was sexually deprived. But the patterns were all there in time.

I had enough. I started my own therapy and told him he should too. Told him I did not want to be intimate with him anymore. He was very angry and told me that I was depressed and that if I could just be a happier person he would be happier etc. but he did go. After about 3 months I was ready to ask for a separation. It got ugly. He told my parents and his mother I was having an affair (we had an open relationship, with open communication about what we did, but ironically I was seeing no one else). He left the house and got drunk and drove himself home multiple nights in a row. We tried therapy but he just criticized me the whole time and the therapist released us before package was complete. He quit his individual therapy.

We used a mediator, at his suggestion. To my absolute surprise he wanted 50/50 custody of the kids, and I didn't want to fight. We would split every single thing down the middle.

He is not complying to our agreement.  He cries poverty, and blames me, telling me this is what I wanted and I did this to myself when I ask him to contribute to his obligations.  Now I believe he is committing fraud by claiming to pay his mother and aunt for childcare in attempt to balance out our expenses. I am afraid of more financial burdens in the future due to his abuse of our agreement.

The next step would be to get a lawyer, but that is going to be so expensive.  I don't have the money so will have to borrow it from my parents, if they even have enough. Wondering if anyone in similar circumstances has any advice? Is it worth paying a lawyer to litigate (and expect less cooperation from him and nasty fighting) or better to keep using mediator and/or taking financial hits until kid #3 (4 year old) is no longer a dependent?

[dt9000]

Hi Elijah,

How is he not complying with the 50/50 custody agreement? Is he just complaining or not paying or allowing visitation? I think that would help us better respond to your situation.

If your state has a department that handles child support, they can investigate fraud and enforce non payment of support without involving an attorney on your part. Make sure you document everything for them.

My experience is to get everything you can through mediation, as long as they are willing to sit down and discuss things.

dt9000

[worriedStepmom]

That sounds pretty miserable. I'm so glad that you started taking care of yourself.  A therapist can really do wonders

There seem to be two types of separations with a BPD - one where mediation works and one where mediation is a flaming pile of dog poo.

My H's ex is terrified of authority and convinced if a judge looks at her he'll take away their daughter forever.  H has been able to negotiate with her, but ONLY after he got a lawyer and filed the initial paperwork.  Once she saw she was serious, her fear of authority took over and they managed to reach an agreement, which the lawyer then filed for them.    The process wasn't easy for H - his ex's dysregulation meant there was a LOT of drama.

Others here on the forum aren't so lucky.  Their exes use the courts as a weapon to try to break them.  Some settle right before trial (because they know they'll lose) and others drag it out more.

If you haven't talked to a lawyer at all, it might be useful to have an initial consultation.  Then the L can tell you what the law is where you live and what the default it.  It may be that your H is being completely unreasonable and a judge will flat-out tell him no.  Or there may be other things that you haven't considered that you could ask for. 

I think every state has a pretty cut-and-dried formula for child support. In some places, it's based on the amount of overnights each parent has with the child.  In some places, it's based on income. In my state, it's blanket - the parent with 1 day less than 50% custody pay X% of their salary in child support to the other parent, with the percent changing depending on how many kids you have.  You need to know what your state requires.

For custody - are your children safe with him 50% of the time?  Does he drive drunk with them in the car?  Will he properly supervise them? Does he verbally abuse them?

[GaGrl]

So this is in he separation period, right? You haven't divorced yet?

If that is the case, think about the future needs of your children -- medical, dental, orthodontic, summer camps, extracurricular activities, school related costs, etc. -- that you and your STBX will need to share costs on. What is your confidence on his willingness and ability to dobthat, based on what you've seen so far?

Do what you need to do to secure your children's needs for years to come. If that means seeing a lawyer and changing your strategy, that may be necessary.

[livednlearned]

It might be worth consulting with 2 or 3 lawyers to gather some information specific to your state. Where I live, it costs $50 for 30 minutes to consult with a lawyer. You can learn a lot in 30 minutes, especially if you call 2-3 lawyers. I had a list of questions and recorded my calls and took notes because emotions tend to mess with memory and these calls can feel emotional. You also get a feel for different styles of lawyer.

Then I sat on the information for a while and looked at my options.

When we're in chronic conflict our brains tend to think catastrophically, prepared for the worse, telling us that there are very few paths forward, if any.

At least my brain tries to do that.

Like dt9000 and worried Stepmom mentioned, there may be a cut-and-dried process created by the state for child support that doesn't even require a lawyer to be involved.

Is he making good on the 50/50 part of visitation?

[Grady]

A lot of lawyers will also give free consults.  But definitely make sure you find ones who are familiar with high conflict divorces/child support. 

My H's BPD can't afford court but always seems to con someone into paying for a lawyer for her.  And she does everything in her power to come up with bogus claims and has no problem lying in court or to authorities.  It's best to know what you are dealing with and find the appropriate support who can handle it.

[elijahlopeez]

Livednlearned. Yes my head does that too. I did consult with two lawyers before I asked for separation. I was still so deep in CoD that I want able to communicate the situation very well. I should do it again. Def worth $50

So far I’ve had no issues having them 50/50. About 20% of the time they’re “with him” they’re actually with his mom which I really don’t like. I’ve asked him to lmk when he “needs” her to help bc our agreement is that we get dibs if the other can’t take them. So that’s not really working so well.

GaGrl, right. Not divorced yet, bc he didn’t want to lay the filing fees. If I get a lawyer I’ll be seeking divorce. We didn’t originally bc of the fees, and bc he can’t refinance the house we owned bc his business is too young, and bc he’s still on my health insurance. A favor from me.

So far I believe they’re safe. My oldest is 13 and won’t put up with his emotional abuse, reports to me immediately. He has never hurt them physically but he can be a real mind f*ck to them sometimes.

Dt9000 he is not contributing to childcare, and claiming that other shared costs are beyond his budget but I know for a fact he is living quite frivolously. When mediator explained he was absolutely responsible for 50% of childcare he inflated what he says are his out of pocket so that he won’t owe me anything. He’s claiming he’s going to start paying  his mother who I know wouldn’t take a dime from him.

[GaGrl]

So you need a "Right of First Refusal" written into your final agreement. That will mean he can be cited for violation of the court order on having his mom take 20% of his time.I

A lawyer will require that a detailed budget be submitted by your H. You can then challenge expenditures that indicate he is "spending frivolously" -- from which budget buckets did that expenditure come?

[dt9000]

Dt9000 he is not contributing to childcare, and claiming that other shared costs are beyond his budget but I know for a fact he is living quite frivolously. When mediator explained he was absolutely responsible for 50% of childcare he inflated what he says are his out of pocket so that he won’t owe me anything. He’s claiming he’s going to start paying  his mother who I know wouldn’t take a dime from him.

Document all of this and meet with your state's child support agency (assuming you are in the States). They should be able to investigate and get him to pay what he is obligated to pay. If you are not happy with their outcome, you can always get an attorney to pursue things later.

[GaGrl]

I don't think the state agencies for child support enforcement will get involved until there is a final divorce with court order on file.

[dt9000]

I don't think the state agencies for child support enforcement will get involved until there is a final divorce with court order on file.

Good point. I had overlooked the fact this was a mutual agreement and not a court order.

[ForeverDad]

A spouse can remain on your health insurance until the divorce is final.  Once final then the insurance company gives the ex, as I recall, 3 months the option to select COBRA laws to continue insurance for about 18 months, it will be full price plus 2%.

Vehicle insurance is different.  Once garaging of the vehicles is at different locations, whether or not a divorce is in process or completed, then the insurance company will contact the one at the new location to separate the accounts.

Credit cards can be more complicated.  The account holder can always cancel the card holder's cards.  But for joint accounts they often want the account repaid before closing it.  Even if you freeze it, there is risk the other person can unfreeze it.

So best to have separate credit card accounts.  Same principle applies to bank or investment accounts, either signer can grab however much and divorce court won't get too upset.  The claim is that the finances will be adjusted at the end of the process.  Problem is, by the time you get to that point, lawyers will be in a rush to close it out and likely you won't get your part of the grabbed money back.  You're ethical but disordered ex probably isn't and lawyers are so anxious to get it wrapped up quick that they don't care.

[elijahlopeez]

Did decide to see a lawyer. It’s amazing how much better I feel. Since the original post I have gotten multiple emails with him trying to justify not tracking hours/substantiating for the child care expenses he is now claiming (paying his mother who’d sell a kidney to make him happy, wouldn’t take a dime), But mostly emails telling me how I broke his heart and that he still has a place for me, but then also asking about the kids meeting his new girlfriend, and then other paragraphs about how I’m not being a friend to him by talking to him like a robot. I have to just skim them because they’re usually just confusing and/or very triggering.

 He suddenly  has some motivation to finalize a divorce (legally separated now)— Maybe his girlfriend is uncomfortable with the set up, or perhaps he thinks this will scare me. Not sure, doesn’t matter I’m happy to move forward   In one of his emails he asks how we put value on our own time with our own children. At this point I decided there was no way I could continue mediation if this was the logic he would be using. Thank you for the support and feedback if there’s any interest I will update how things go Now that I will be using my own counsel.

[GaGrl]

If you aren't getting accurate info on what he is paying his mother, you might want something written in regarding the tax reporting of payments to her SSN#. It might be a different situation if she is required to pay taxes on nanny income.

[KingofTexas37891]

If you have no Court custody orders then those mutual agreements are not enforceable. You can forget it as you will just waste time.

My suggestion is first to create a family budget that contains all expenses and share this file with him. Then ask him to contribute financially. Lay all expenses bare so he sees you are really struggling financially and need his help.

Use text messaging or other written forms of communication with him going forward so you have proof in court if needed.


Divorce: the filing costs less than $250 in average. I think it should not be hard to bring this up if you are serious with filing. Also if your income is low, you can apply there in Court for an exemption.

If what you stated here in forum is true, then I suggest file for an amicable divorce, request joint custody orders and child support.

[mpacific]

If you aren't getting accurate info on what he is paying his mother, you might want something written in regarding the tax reporting of payments to her SSN#. It might be a different situation if she is required to pay taxes on nanny income.

I was going to suggest the same thing, we pay for SD's preschool through pretax and we have to submit what's been paid and to whom. If you have that ability then you'd need a receipt of sorts and for tax purposes.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi elijahlopeez, so happy to read you found a lawyer. It is scary at first when things move beyond mediation and into legal channels, but it is empowering to discover where you have the law on your side. I'm in a very similar situation to you and have recently found that the legal route is the only one left because my pwBPD is not capable of meeting agreements. Best of luck!

~Roland