Bad night ahead

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So, a friend on the personnel committee at H's work told him he's being let go in 6 weeks. After throwing out all the alcohol in the house last week because of it effect on him, he brought home a bottle of wine.

He's hurt. He's frustrated. He's scared. I get all that. But he launched straight into "these are your parents' friends who are doing this." "I don't want anything to do with your parents." "This is your dad's fault." I tried to validate and empathize but when he called my dad "a wimp and a horrible person" I used the safe word and took a break.

I should add that before taking a break, I gave SS his dinner. I came back down and fixed my own plate to eat. H and SS came into the kitchen and H got more food for SS. When SS left:
H: You didn't give him any?
Me: Huh? I gave him some almost an hour ago.
H He says you didn't.
M: I did. I asked him if it was enough for him.
H uses safe word and storms off.

Now he's stewing upstairs. He saw SS eating earlier. SS must have lied. Or he said he didn't have enough and H misinterpreted.

Regardless, this is a rough night. I don't know what to do. This is a bad night for H and all I want to do is support him, but when he turns everything around on my family, I'm left not knowing what to say or do. I can't make them do anything. I won't give them up. But that leaves H feeling abandoned and unsupported. Now it seems like SS is picking up on it and turning against me too.

Miserable.

[Ozzie101]

So, a friend on the personnel committee at H's work told him he's being let go in 6 weeks. After throwing out all the alcohol in the house last week because of it effect on him, he brought home a bottle of wine.

He's hurt. He's frustrated. He's scared. I get all that. But he launched straight into "these are your parents' friends who are doing this." "I don't want anything to do with your parents." "This is your dad's fault." I tried to validate and empathize but when he called my dad "a wimp and a horrible person" I used the safe word and took a break.

I should add that before taking a break, I gave SS his dinner. I came back down and fixed my own plate to eat. H and SS came into the kitchen and H got more food for SS. When SS left:
H: You didn't give him any?
Me: Huh? I gave him some almost an hour ago.
H He says you didn't.
M: I did. I asked him if it was enough for him.
H uses safe word and storms off.

Now he's stewing upstairs. He saw SS eating earlier. SS must have lied. Or he said he didn't have enough and H misinterpreted.

Regardless, this is a rough night. I don't know what to do. This is a bad night for H and all I want to do is support him, but when he turns everything around on my family, I'm left not knowing what to say or do. I can't make them do anything. I won't give them up. But that leaves H feeling abandoned and unsupported. Now it seems like SS is picking up on it and turning against me too.

Miserable.

[Cat Familiar]

Ozzie,  remember intermittent reinforcement. And he’s drinking, so he’s more reactive and less able to reset.

Of course you want to support him and it’s tough being accused wrongly. And even worse, scapegoating your parents.

This is a critical moment for you. Of course you want to be supportive, but what would you be supporting now?

[Ozzie101]

Supporting his disordered thinking.

So far, I've been accused of:
Being a gold-digger
Putting my family before him
Believing everyone but him
Demanding proof or documentation of what he's telling me (I haven't asked for anything)
This is your church doing this
Everything he's done regarding his family was at my instigation and my advice
These are your parents' friends (I asked him to call the by their names as my parents aren't part of this -- he refused)

Apparently he sent his T a strong email today.

I guess part of me feels guilty because, no, I don't 100% believe everything he tells me. Too often, he's gotten things wrong. Just a few minutes ago he told me he has a recording of a conversation with my mom when he offered his support in a dispute with friends. I don't believe he recorded it. And if he did, why?

He says if my parents had just reached out and said they were sorry for what he's going through or offered support, that would mean a lot. I agreed. It would. Why haven't they? I don't know. They may be afraid to. Once my dad said they were scared to say or do anything for fear it could cause problems for me.

Ugh. At the moment I just want to run away from everyone.

[Ozzie101]

The night followed its usual pattern and the dysregulation continued. He continued to blame me for not believing him and demanding to see documentation of everything. Said point-blank "It's your parents' fault" and then, later, "It's not their fault. I never said that." Lots of talk about money, then accusing me of bringing up money every time. Accusing me of never being on his side, never having his back. That my family and I never show any loyalty to him. I asked him what loyalty looks like to him and I agreed with his definition. But I don't think that's what he's really feeling.

At the root of it all is fear. Fear that I'll leave. Fear that he's screwed up the job. Fear of what will happen to us without his income. (Even when he finds a new job it will, most likely, pay a lot less.)

It's all coming from the shame and fear and guilt and that empty place. I can't fix that for him. I love him. And it breaks my heart that he's hurting and that he's being railroaded -- while also holding some reservations because I know now that there's a tendency to really shoot himself in the foot. But I can't make him feel those things. Failing on my part? Maybe. Or maybe it's the BPD/PTSD. Maybe both.

This morning, as usual, he apologized. He said he knew the wine was a bad idea but when a co-worker brought it to him and said, "Here. You look like you need this," he decided to bring it home, have some and throw it out. Well, yeah, bad idea. He's said many times before that he knows the wine doesn't help and, in fact, makes him feel worse, but he keeps doing it. I knew the throwing it all out last week was a temporary thing that wouldn't last.

Anyway, he was far more regulated this morning. He told me he feels like there's something wrong with him. He has all these emotions swirling around and he doesn't know how to process them or how to deal with them. He's cut things off with his therapist because he doesn't want to go to that clinic anymore, but he wants to see someone. I asked him if he wants me to ask my T for a recommendation on someone who treats emotional regulation problems, PTSD, etc., and he said that, yes, that would be great.

The thing with the chili/dinner for SS? He didn't remember it at all. When I told him what had happened, he was horrified and ran off to talk to SS to straighten it out. SS didn't lie about my feeding him. H just misinterpreted what SS said. SS just wanted a little more. But the blow-up and accusations happened in front of SS and that's a problem. It's also a pattern. H misinterprets something SS said, flies off the handle, and does damage. That's something we need to address because it's a real cause for concern for me.

Anyway, H wants to talk about some of this stuff tonight -- setting a time limit and no alcohol.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s good that he can acknowledge that he wasn’t seeing things clearly. How exhausting to feel the brunt of it last night! How are you doing?

Have you made a list of bullet points for tonight’s discussion?

Do you have a plan to keep things on the rails if he starts getting emotional?

[formflier]

Here's what I see.

You knew it was going to be a "stormy night" so you put on your bad weather gear (your tools) and weathered things.

I hope you can do something special for yourself today!

Here's hoping for a better talk.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, y'all. H goes out of town for a long weekend tomorrow. Here's hoping I can have some nice me-time.

I have made some notes/bullet points for tonight. As for a plan if things go off the rails -- I'm working on that.

But, yes, it is exhausting.

Part of the problem is that I start to get confused myself -- especially in regards to my parents. Is he right? Should he expect more loyalty from them? Should my parents be expected to cut things off with these friends? From what H has told me, the wife has been doing things that are very unfair and problematic (leaving him out of meetings, ignoring his requests to chat or anything like that). My parents are aware of a lot that's going on, yes.

I know my parents. I know they're question-askers (which drives him nuts when I do it -- or anyone does it, really -- can't handle questions and assumes he's being criticized or attacked). I know they don't jump to decisions or conclusions and are very cautious. I also know they're fairly passive and non-confrontational (shocker -- wonder where I get it from ).

But when he talks about being all alone with no one to support him -- how I don't really support him or take his side -- how people at work do and even his ex-wife does -- how he feels hurt and betrayed -- I admit, I feel confused and it's harder to center myself. It gets me debating: Are my parents being dysfunctional and handling things badly? Or am I right that, friends or no, they have no business being pulled into this and it just detracts from the main issue?

Still feeling kind of angry about the situation with SS. As I said, it's a pattern with H, though the first time it's been aimed at me (I suspected that, eventually, it would be).

And mad about the drinking. Yes, I knew last week when he threw it out it wouldn't last. But for him to call me and tell me "I'm just telling you, I'm breaking a rule tonight. Someone gave me something at work" -- *sigh*

[Cat Familiar]

No, your parents have no business in this, regardless of who their friends are. Otherwise it’s triangulation.

His thinking in this area is like that of a child, rather than a grown man. Mommy and daddy-in-law should save me from the bad teacher (boss).

You cannot observe how he behaves at work in a difficult relationship with a supervisor. Perhaps she has her reasons why she has cut off contact. Maybe she doesn’t and she just doesn’t like him. That happens. But it’s unreasonable for an adult to expect his in-laws to drop a long-standing friendship just because he can’t get along well with his boss. Full stop.

And telling you that you don’t support him when others do—well that’s right out of the BPD playbook. As you know, BPD manifests most prominently in intimate relationships. It’s easy for them to feel that we aren’t supportive enough, no matter how much we try. It’s just that emotional wound that never can be soothed. And if outsiders offer a platitude of support, then they feel like we should offer a megaton of comfort, because we are the spouse.

[formflier]

To be clear, neither you or he should expect your parents to change their friendships.  Perhaps if there is absolute clarity regarding unethical/immoral behavior...

But deciding who will or won't be employed?  No way...good grief, that's why lots of family businesses don't work out.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I agree. I separate personal and professional. I realize there's some bleed-over here. But I'm well-aware that he's trying to triangulate.

Honestly, I think this about more than the job. It's all tied up in his difficult relationship with his mother, his abandonment by his bio family, his complicated relationship with my family, his feelings of inadequacy.

So, for him, he sees my parents still doing things with these friends and to him it means they don't care about him. They don't care about me. It means they have no loyalty. People are treating him horribly and they/I care more about a 40-year friendship than someone they're related to.

I understand his hurt feelings. I do. But I can't go along with the idea that my parents "need" to do xyz. He was getting upset with me last night for not pushing my parents and saying something like, "You need to do this. You're hurting him by not doing this." I know them. That would not help. In fact, it would hurt his relationship with them even more.

As I said, and as I said to him this morning -- We can have a conversation about work and what's going on and who's doing what. But when it becomes "your parents' friends" or "your parents" or "your family" it becomes an entirely different conversation -- and one that distracts from the actual issue at hand: his upcoming unemployment and what we do about it.

It’s easy for them to feel that we aren’t supportive enough, no matter how much we try. It’s just that emotional wound that never can be soothed

Yep. It's also got elements of guilt-tripping and button-pushing. And as for the outsiders -- there are plenty of people I'd like to tell to knock it off because they're not helping (like the person who gave him a bottle of wine last night). But I know they mean well and don't know what's really going on. With work and family, there are people who keep validating him in unhealthy ways.

You cannot observe how he behaves at work in a difficult relationship with a supervisor. Perhaps she has her reasons why she has cut off contact.

Which could very well be true and I'm aware of -- but avoid saying in any way to him because then I'm doubting him and not on his side. It reminds me of the situation with his psychiatrist. The P and the clinic director stopped communicating with him so his therapist (who works there, too), talked to the director. Finally he told her (wouldn't do it in writing) that H is a problem, too demanding, and they're afraid he wants to damage/attack the clinic. That tells me his communications haven't been as polite as he's said.

Same thing with his bio family.

[formflier]

Does it seem genuine that he doesn't remember big parts of things he has said...big parts of events.

It comes through that way  in your posts.

Think about this...what if he honestly doesn't remember the communications with the clinic?

It's good he wants to work on things, but I would put a caveat in it..that reality has to be a part of it, especially with the VAST difference in his memory and actual events.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

It definitely seems genuine. I've seen the look he gets when I tell him something that happened -- shock, confusion, horror, even fear. My T says that's common in trauma-related disorders. A couple of weeks ago, he did not remember at all that I'd told him I had a follow-up interview for a new job. When I told him about it, he insisted I hadn't said anything and started scrolling his phone until I said, "No. I told you in person. In the kitchen while I was dishing up the green beans." He looked bewildered and nearly started crying, apologizing.

So, last summer, we went to the beach with his bio parents, sister and nephew. I left after a couple of days (didn't have enough vacation time to spare). Towards the end of the trip, he calls and tells me there was a big problem. Something about him and his dad going to pick up food and, when he got back, he learned his sister made SS take a shower while her son didn't have to. He was livid.

Later, he tells me everything was fine. He found out that he'd misunderstood SS, apologized to sister and all was well.

But given what happened and how, a month and a half later all communication completely stopped -- I just wonder if things were more heightened than he let on (or remembers). If they saw the side of him I've seen and that scared them off. Both his parents had physically abusive fathers so they could have witnessed something truly triggering.

I don't know.

Anyway, I do struggle with trusting him. Not because I think he's deliberately lying, but because I don't think he has the most firm grasp on reality -- especially when dysregulating. Not sure how I say to him that I want to support him and be on his side, but I can't fully trust his versions of events. That would likely trigger him BIG time. Or do I not let that on at all? Or just remind him of his tendency to forget things and see where it goes from there.

[formflier]

You need to find a way to say that.  Let's think about that for a while because you certainly don't want to say you don't "trust" xyz from him...yet he needs to know.

Hmmm.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Yes, need to think about that. I'm open to suggestions!

He's his own worst enemy, really. He worries about abandonment, that people will drop him or leave him or cut him off, yet his behaviors make it more likely that will happen.

And I think, to some degree, he's aware of it. When he does something wrong, he's very quick to (genuinely) apologize. Has said many times and about many situations, "If there's a problem, if I did something wrong, I just wish they'd tell me. I would do anything I could to fix it. Why can't they just say so?" So, there's self-awareness there. He seems very worried that he causes these problems himself. Part of why he wants to try a different therapy.

Last night he kept going on about how I would just run away and leave because of the money issue. That the house and my car are in his name, which means he's left holding the bag. And so on. Thing is, the only thing that could drive me away is his behavior. It's sad, really.

[Ozzie101]

Talk seemed to go OK last night. He started out a little more keyed up than usual but was way more lucid. The meetings he had (including with Friend) went better than he'd expected. He told me he really feels like he's done being the boss. Really wants to step back into a more supporting role now -- less stress and pressure. I told him that was probably a good idea and it was just fine to do that.

He reiterated that he feels like there's something not right about him. He knows he has trouble with his emotions. He talked about how sometimes he's just not even "there" -- like Tuesday night. And he sometimes doesn't really remember what happened after.

Anyway, my T gave us a couple of recommendations for people who specialize in emotional regulation, abandonment and PTSD and he's very excited to get in with one of them. I also talked to him some about DBT and, in the meantime, he wants to start on a workbook. He did one for his anger management and found it extremely helpful. Anyway, I found one that was recommended and have ordered it.

I think his openness -- even eagerness -- to address these issues is a very good sign.

[Cat Familiar]

That is an excellent sign!  

It definitely sounds like he's disassociating at times. So those times, in addition, to times where alcohol intake is involved, you would be well advised to steer clear of rational discussions.

Have you noticed any particular body language, facial expressions, voice tone, different word choice or phrasing when he might be in one of those dissociative states?

[Ozzie101]

You're right. We/I need to steer clear of those. That may be something I can address with him when he's as open as he was last night -- think of ways we can avoid that happening and what I can do to get away from it if necessary.

Have you noticed any particular body language, facial expressions, voice tone, different word choice or phrasing when he might be in one of those dissociative states?

Yes. It's in his eyes. It's like he's not even there. Also, his manner of speech. When he's upset, he can be kind of disjointed and all over the place but, when he's dissociating, it's worse. I have a recording of the very end of one instance. It's almost like a broken record that's skipping. You can practically hear him trying to get his mind back on track.

And looking back, I can't remember any dissociative episodes that haven't had alcohol involved.

[Blast000]

Part of the problem is that I start to get confused myself -- especially in regards to my parents. Is he right? Should he expect more loyalty from them? Should my parents be expected to cut things off with these friends? From what H has told me, the wife has been doing things that are very unfair and problematic (leaving him out of meetings, ignoring his requests to chat or anything like that). My parents are aware of a lot that's going on, yes.

[/quote

Have you told him this (or some version of it)? Can you tell him this?

Maybe, with your parents, it's best to just hear him out but ultimately be neutral.

I have this constant battle with my wife and her parents.I try not to get involved in it too much and over time it blows over.

[Ozzie101]

Hi there, Blast!

No, I haven't. And, in this case, I'm not really sure I should. If I give in even a little to him on whether or not my parents should be involved in this, it will be opening a very big door that will be hard if not impossible to close. I have agreed with him that it would have been nice if my parents had reached out to him just to say something like, "Sorry you're going through a rough time!" Because that's true.

I hear him out. I don't budge on what I really believe, but I mostly, as you say, stay neutral. That seems to be the best policy -- as you've found with your wife and in-laws. I've learned with experience that a lot of my H's major crises blow over fast -- and much faster if I don't get sucked in and feed the beast.

[formflier]

 
But how would your parents know he was going through a rough time?

Unless I'm missing something, he is wanting them to be mind readers...right?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I've told them what's going on so they've been filled in. I didn't know some details and some of the bigger stuff until recently, though.

They've expressed sympathy and "We're sorry all this is happening" type comments but through me. I think after a lot of stuff last year, they're almost afraid to go to him with stuff directly for fear they'll say something wrong and set him off, therefore making things worse for me. When my dad tried to help with medical stuff last year, his inability to be really helpful set H off in a HUGE way. My dad heard some of the raging while talking to me on the phone. He told me later that he wasn't able to sleep at all that night, terrified I was being beaten.

[formflier]

Here is the thing...if you hubby wants to talk to people, he should be calling them.

My guess is that the less they are involved at this point, the better.

Switching gears.  On the one hand, I'm glad he wants to reach out for more  T/different T, but there are some  here.

I would insist the new people consult with the old people, especially those that stopped responding to him.

Sometimes people keep looking for new Ts to "hide".

I don't think that is going on here, but you should make sure that there are plenty of connections to prevent this.

Last thing to point out:  I've read lots of stories over the years.  Most forgetfulness is "from time to time". 

In your stories it seems to be a consistent part of the dysfunction/dysregulation.    And we are not talking about matters of nuance (he claims he said jog and you claim he said sprint).  There seem to be big blocks of time/events that for some reason he cannot recall.

All medical professionals involved need to know this.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Here is the thing...if you hubby wants to talk to people, he should be calling them.

Oh, I absolutely agree. And i've told him as much.

Like you, I don't think he's trying to hide. He still wants to keep in touch with his old T. It's just that she doesn't have much experience in treating emotional dysregulation, etc. He seems pretty concerned about that and trying to figure out what could be wrong and how to stop it.

As for the psychiatrist and the clinic director who stopped talking -- oddly, both contacted him yesterday (which I just learned last night). I'm not sure what the deal is there -- why they suddenly think talking to him is OK when they told his T that he was too demanding and a problem. Unless there was some faulty communication somewhere along the line.

You're right about the dissociatons. Pretty sure his primary care doctor doesn't know. I don't know if he's told his T and P, but it seems like I remember that he did tell them. I'll ask him to be sure.

The dissociations worry me. That's part of why I really want to come up with some plan of what to do when he's getting into that state. Ideally I guess would be to have a way to head it off before it starts. But, barring that...

[formflier]

Oh, I absolutely agree. And i've told him as much.
 

I hope some others can "come alongside" this thought and figure out if there is something there or not.[

Since you and he have discussed this and since he persists in wanting people to read his mind and contact him (and his associated unhappiness that they don't),  I'm concerned that somehow you are validating the invalid in the way you speak/react to him around these things.

It seems like he has been doing it for a while, so why does it persist?

Ozzie101 not blaming you or anything and I may be going down a fruitless path...not sure.

This seems so simple (he calls them) yet he persists in not calling, therefor he must be getting something out of it..right?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

You may have something there. Is it valid or invalid that he wants them to call him? Honestly, I'm not sure. He's never had a close relationship with them. As far as I know, my brothers-in-law don't really contact my parents directly and aren't contacted by them for the most part. Communication tends to go through the daughters. It's a big family and that's just seemed to be the most efficient way. I told H this before we even got married. Only exceptions I know of is one BIL who's a doctor (like my dad) reaching out for professional reasons or same BIL contacting my parents for help dealing with my possibly BPD (but certainly troubled) sister.

(That last is something to add. I don't really know what's going on with my sister currently. But it's very possible that that's taking up a lot of my parents' emotional attention at the moment. I know they've been keeping her kids a good bit lately.)

I'm going to think and really pay attention to how I respond to this so I can be sure I'm not perpetuating things.

Piecing together his background and things he's said over the years, I wonder if he's trying to create a family -- or his idea of one. Yet he's not entirely sure what that should look or feel like.

I think he desperately wants to belong. But he's so shy and introverted and then so tense and unapproachable at events that he pretty much makes it impossible for that to happen. Then he blames everyone else.

When he's upset, he'll complain about how everyone he's dated or been married to has put their bio family ahead of him. He's always an outsider. If that "always" happens, it makes me think his perception and/or his expectations are screwy. It seems like he wants a partner to be willing to completely drop or cut off their FOO for him. Yet, even then, I don't think it would give him what he wants or thinks he needs. That wound inside will still be there.

It seems to upset him that my family cares more about "me" than about "us." I think they do care about us. But I'm their priority over H and SS9. I think that's natural.

About the not calling: I don't know what he might be getting out of it. But he's big on mind reading. He wants people to figure things out. If it has to be told to them or requested, it doesn't count. Kind of like not explaining the rules of a game and then getting mad when people don't follow them.

[formflier]

  Is it valid or invalid that he wants them to call him?

This is completely valid.  You can validate this and follow up with..."and what do you think you should do about this?"

What happens next is where I think you go off the rails.

He says they should know and then I suspect you stay engaged.  Then he "feeds" off that.

As opposed to, "Hmm..yeah I think I'll call them.  Text them...email them...whatever." 

The "invalid" part (and I may be misusing that term...again others please help here because it's no only a feeling, it's an action) is that others can know what he needs/wants without him taking action.

It would be just as invalid or enabling for you to do his "dirty work" also.  Letting others know what he needs.

You know...try this on for size.  Maybe one of his core issues is letting people know what he needs/wants.  Or perhaps we go deeper and he realizes he hasn't a clue what he wants or needs or perhaps it changes so much that he is shameful to let others know.

Ugg. 

Anyway, I think what we need to help you do Ozzie101 is focus on EXACTLY where the departure is made from valid to invalid.  From listening to enabling (again if that is the right word).

Best,

FF

PS  What kind of doc is your Dad?
 

[Cat Familiar]

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