Lying and Manipulation to get their way

[Blind1]

My daughter (almost 18) has just been diagnosed with BPD. This diagnosis explains a lot, but while I'm trying to read everything I can about it, it just begets more questions. We had a major blow up this past week and she is determined to move out in a couple of weeks when she turns 18. I hope she doesn't because she will never make it (she quit school, no job, no money...) but if she stays it is going to be tough. I am in contact with her therapist, but they aren't at my beck and call, so I need some advice. I understand that I need to validate her feelings, but my problem is she uses those feelings to get her way. How do you discipline and hold a line when she will lie and then get upset when I'm not caring about what she wants to do? Ex - she is supposed to be home at 10. She calls with a story that her friend needs a ride from work but she doesn't get off until 10. I tell her no because she is to be home by 10 or she loses privileges of the car. Of course I'm a terrible person because I won't let her help her friend. I have no idea if the friend needed it or not, because she notoriously lies about who she is with and where she is going. She will go and do what she wants because "she needs it". So because she is hurting, she expects me to let her do whatever she wants so she can feel better. I need to understand how you validate feelings while not letting her just do whatever. To me, I would think in her mind, her feelings are invalidated if she doesn't get her way. I just can't reconcile it.

Thanks

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Harri]

Hi and welcome.

I am sorry to hear about your struggles with your daughter.  I can hear how much you care when reading your post.  It is tough when we want to help but feel like our hands are tied isn't it?

Validation can be tricky.  It does not always work in all situations though and it can be hard to find a validation target sometimes.  In the case of your daughter, validation does not have to go hand in hand with her feelings.  It can sound more like "Wow, I am sorry to hear your friend is in a bind.  She will have to work things out though as you have to be home at 10"  and if she gets upset I would focus more on using SET (sympathy, empathy and truth) and maybe sandwich it between some validation at the beginning and end.  So you would have something more like:

Validation:  I understand you are upset and feel lke youa re not being listened to (or whatever reflects her words best as we don't want to tell them what they are feeling)
Sympathy/Empathy:  I understand you are upset I would be too.  It is hard when we can't help people we care about.
Truth:  You have a 10pm curfew and that does not change.  Your friend will have to work things our for herself.
Validation:  Again, I know you want to help her but let her learn to manage that on her own okay?

Or something along those lines.  You know your daughter best and I assume you know her friend (I may be wrong there on the friend part).  I tend to be too blunt and direct so what I wrote probably needs some tweaking.   

Validation is simply acknowledging that someone is having feelings.  It is not agreement or condoning and it does not mean that if our pwBPD still gets upset, that validation does not work.  Like I said above, validation is not always appropriate.  I would use something like SET in this situation as well.  If you want to read more about SET we have an article here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

[twocrazycats]

Hi Blind1, I join Harri in welcoming you.

My daughter is 19, and I've dealt with similar situations. I second what Harri said about validation. However, in the curfew situation, with my daughter, I would need to discuss the various possibilities beforehand with her. In the moment would be useless. She would do what she wanted, regardless, turn it around to make it my fault, and, like you said, she might be lying in the first place about the friend.

What I would do is talk to her before she goes out. Remind her of the curfew, and state that if anyone asks for a ride or anything comes up at the last minute, you're sorry, but the answer has to be no. Make sure she agrees to that, with the understanding that not following it will result in loss of car privileges. And then make sure to follow through with it. I think it's very important to be as firm as possible about it now, before she turns 18. When my dd turned 18, she decided that she could do whatever she wanted. I had to remind her that the flip side of that is that I no longer have to provide her with free shelter and food. So if she wants to live in my house, she needs to respect my boundaries that I have in place for my own peace of mind.

My daughter needs firm, strong  boundaries, and yet she resists them. Thankfully, she lives at college much of the year. She just left yesterday after a 5-week winter break, and I am breathing much more freely.

2CC

 

[Harri]

Hi again.

I want to say that 2CC has a great point about making the rules about the curfew with your daughter very clear before she goes out.      Thanks for chiming in 2CC.

[livednlearned]

I admire you for learning what you can about BPD -- it will go a long way to help heal your family and learn the specific relationship and communication skills (that are not intuitive and must be learned). And you love and care for D17's well-being and want her to be safe. Don't forget to focus on your well-being too 

Do you feel comfortable sharing a snippet of how the conversation goes when she uses your validating words to get her way?

Maybe we can help troubleshoot.

With teens, it may be that the situation calls more for SET (support, empathy, truth) with the  emphasis placed on seT. You can read more about SET in Shari Manning's excellent book Loving Someone with BPD (if you haven't come across it yet).

Validation and SET do not help with distress tolerance, that's a different skill set for D to learn. I found I had to learn it too -- conflict and worry and kids rolling over boundaries creates a lot of distress for parents/step parents/grandparents.

Having a boundary often creates distress for both sides. The key is to find ways to manage those feelings so that it becomes more bearable for us.

In general, I found that the less talk about boundaries, the better. I do most of my thinking ahead of time, figuring out what I have true control over, and what I don't. Then I work from there. I assert the boundary as plainly as possible, then when the boundary is inevitably breached, I move to enforcement. Almost always there is a testing period and I become baffled by her counter move. Then I have to reassess and get my emotions straightened out and figure a way to close that loophole.

It's not easy  

[Blind1]

Thank you all for your help. It helps to know that in some cases, her feelings won't be validated and I will do my best to use SET. This is going to be extremely difficult for me though, as I am not a patient person and am a controlling type as well (exactly what a BP doesn't need).

Luckily that was one of the easier situations, but there have been others where I try to enforce the curfew and she doesn't call to let me know. The one night she just didn't come home until 12:30 and had some story that her grandpa (on her dads side - we are divorced) fell and she had to take him to the hospital. I know that wasn't the truth because I talked to him.  Of course I take the car away, but then she just has friends come pick her up. I guess because this is all so new, I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing and not "setting her back" in trying to regain some control. It all sounds good when reading, but when putting into practice it's much more difficult and I'm second guessing everything I do. I know, I need to stop that and do what is right for me and the rest of my family, I can't make her better.

How do you deal with lying when you know she has lied? Do you confront them? I know they tend to live in their own reality and of course I'm the bad person because I don't believe them. I want to make intense outpatient therapy a condition for living at my house, but I also want to take her to each appt. I know she will get mad and say I don't trust her...because I don't. If I say put your tracking on, she will trick it (she has already done that), if I say I will randomly check to see if she is there, she will just park her car there and have a friend pick her up. I want to call her out on all of this, but I realize that may blow up on me too.

Thanks

[twocrazycats]

How do you deal with lying when you know she has lied? Do you confront them? I know they tend to live in their own reality and of course I'm the bad person because I don't believe them. I want to make intense outpatient therapy a condition for living at my house, but I also want to take her to each appt. I know she will get mad and say I don't trust her...because I don't. If I say put your tracking on, she will trick it (she has already done that), if I say I will randomly check to see if she is there, she will just park her car there and have a friend pick her up. I want to call her out on all of this, but I realize that may blow up on me too.

Thanks

n

Since she has done all those things you mentioned (and I could picture my dd doing them), she has broken your trust. I tell my dd that trust is earned. in our case, my dd lied to me for a year when she was 13 about meeting a boy at the park. It has gotten somewhat better in recent years, but she still sometimes says one thing and does another, especially when the bf is involved, and I still remind her that trust is earned and needs to be built back when it's been broken.

2CC

[Enabler]

Hey Blind1,

What was the reason for the 22:00 curfew? Was there something specific that made you pick this time, does it exist all the time or just some of the time for specific reasons e.g. on a school night? Does this curfew align with other parents of her peers?

Enabler

[Blind1]

Enabler, The reason I picked that time is because for one I can't trust her. The other reason is that's when I go to bed. The garage is right below us and I don't want to hear her coming in at, say midnight and then wondering what time it really is, did she break curfew again, what has she been doing. Some of it is for my own and my husbands sanity so we can get some sleep. There have been times when she will call right before she has to be home, with some story as to why she won't be home on time. Again, I don't need that, I need to sleep so I can go to work. I want her to understand that this isn't her house and there are others she needs to be respectful of.

Like with most parents, I have for too long let a lot of things go because I was trying to keep the peace. Now that I know what I'm dealing with, I need to real some of this back in so the home isn't in such chaos all the time. I just can't keep going on like I have been.

[Blind1]

n

Since she has done all those things you mentioned (and I could picture my dd doing them), she has broken your trust. I tell my dd that trust is earned. in our case, my dd lied to me for a year when she was 13 about meeting a boy at the park. It has gotten somewhat better in recent years, but she still sometimes says one thing and does another, especially when the bf is involved, and I still remind her that trust is earned and needs to be built back when it's been broken.

2CC

I just talked to her therapist about how to deal with the lying and her suggestion is pick my battles. Not sure what I think about that. I haven't called her out on much of her lying because of course, I'm the one lying and the bad guy. So I get what she's saying, but I want my dd to know that I know she is lying. I know they have a problem, but that's not something anyone wants to tolerate. If she does that to others, she is in a heap of trouble, and of course I don't want to see her go through that.

[Enabler]

I suppose what I'm looking for here is, what's the value you are protecting with the curfew boundary?

My thinking is, is your D a guest in your home, a lodger in your home or something else where she can define it as 'her home'?

If she is a guest in your home she should abide by your rules, if she's a lodger in your home you might expect she pay to be there but in return have the rite to determine how she comes and goes within the bounds of reasonableness and reasonable impacts on the other occupants of the house, if she's something else and is allowed to consider it her home, well then she somewhat is allowed to be involved in determining the rules. I'm think along the lines of the difference between staying at a friends house, staying at a bed and breakfast with those friends and renting a housing with those friends. Those different situations would denote a different level of reasonable behaviour in determining rules.

She's 18, when I was 18 I would regularly go out to pubs and clubs and come home at 2...3..4 am. I didn't turn out too bad. When I got home I was quiet, locked and bolted the door and slipped into bed with 'minimal' disturbance to others. I don't know if Mum and Dad stayed awake till I got home... possibly... but that was their problem, not mine... and they knew that. Parents worry, and worry for good reason sometimes, but ultimately that's their (my) problem. It's important we don't project our own anxieties onto our children as them being 'bad' because they are 'making' us worried. Being out till midnight+ is not unreasonable in itself. Being out till midnight, coming home and being sick on the living room floor, knocking over the china cabinet IS unreasonable.

Also, if your D abides by the curfew, do you make the time later the next time? What's the reward for her adhering to the curfew. What does gaining your trust look like for her. I can see a POSITIVE reward for her not abiding by the rules and then lying to you... she gets to do what she likes and my guess is (since she's BPD) she's pretty numb to you telling her she's been bad by coming home late or lying. Can she see a route to getting what she wants by playing by the rules and telling the truth? What she wants is NOT unreasonable in my opinion.

Do you think that she see's therapy sessions as something fro her or something for you? What do you think would be more effective?

Enabler

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Blind1]

Enabler, I understand this seems trivial to want to push the curfew, but in my opinion, she needs to gain my trust. Unfortunately we have just found all of this out and we haven't sat down with her to tell her our expectations, reason for them or the consequences. That is the first step. We are going slowly because her therapist is trying to help her understand what is going on with her (today is only the second time they have talked about it). And yes, if she can prove to abide by them, then maybe I will let her stay out later. If she can't adhere to the 10, she won't adhere to the 12 though. Plus, she is really only 17 (turns 18 next month). And she is supposed to be in HS, but she has dropped out. I'm not OK with her going out and doing whatever she wants, then lay around all day doing nothing. This was just one example, and there are others that are worse, I was really just trying to understand lying in general and not this specific instance. I appreciate your perspective though. I do really have to think about what is important to me as we go forward and set boundaries and not try to take control of everything.

[Bandiro]

Here is my 2 cents: our house is much more peaceful and DD18 and I tolerate each other much better since I learned to give her some space.
Things got significantly worse in our house around the time she turned 17. She didn't think she should have to follow any rules, and I was resentful that she wasn't taking care of her obligations to an expensive and time consuming sport that she participated in. We were constantly fighting. Over a period of a few months, I stopped paying for the sport and I also loosened my expectations in other areas of her life. She had a curfew of midnight on the weekends, and as long as she obeyed the curfew, I didn't question her about where she was, who she was with, etc.  She would sometimes ask for an extension on the curfew, and I would sometimes grant it. I knew she might be lying about the reason for the extension, but I didn't ask and didn't really care.
Since she turned 18, the curfew is still around midnight when she is driving (we bought the car and pay for the insurance), but if she isn't driving she doesn't really have a curfew at all as long as she is home at a reasonable hour, or lets me know if she is sleeping at a friend's house. She knows that if she is driving I might randomly check on her when she comes in to confirm that she isn't under the influence (she never has been). If she is not driving, I don't say anything about drinking or smoking - she is an adult and will have to make those decisions on her own.
There is no doubt that our house is more peaceful, and I am so much less stressed, since I learned to back off and give her more space and not ask her too many questions. And since I am not questioning her about her whereabouts, actions, etc., there is nothing for her to lie about. She now follows the rules without questioning them and constantly pushing for more. She still has her "rages", but they are fewer and farther between, and they are no longer about having to follow our rules - there are plenty of other things for her to get upset about. I know every family is different, and what worked for us may not work for you.

[Enabler]

Hey Bandiro,

It sounds like you are further down the path that the T is looking to get Blind1. I sense that you have seen how mapping out a path for your D getting what she wants has led to an improved relationship between you and your D. Like Blind1's T is trying to do, your D knows the boundaries and the consequences for crossing those boundaries BUT... and this is the big BUT, there is freedom within the boundaries for her to make choices, choices that you do not attempt to control. As parents I think we underestimate the sense of control that comes from just enquiring what they are doing in the unconstrained time. Someone with a shame disorder will typically feel judged constantly especially by their parents. Parents asking questions triggers this sense of being judged, and the shame sensitivity and typically the response is to lie. "I don't want you to judge me so i will offer you something you want to hear rather than the truth which might prompt you to judge me." pwBPD must feel like they are walking through a minefield of little shame bombs. By not asking and backing off, as Bandiro has done, there is no need to lie.

I understand that this approach comes with the possibility of bad things happening. Bandiro has set boundaries and spot checks which check relatively infrequently that the boundary is being adhered to (but I guess they would increase with frequency if she crossed a boundary). Blind1, I don't see your boundary as trivial. I just wondered whether or not it is reasonable and whether the boundary is too focused on control your own emotions and her impact on them, rather than any real personal value you have you are trying to guide her to.

Blind1, your D has dropped out of school. Does your D understand that all adults are expected to contribute to their own living costs/functioning of the home OR be in full time education. There's a middle ground combining the 2 elements but being a 'non-performing asset' is not acceptable. How have you approached this?

Enabler

[PeaceMom]

My DD19 walks thru this minefield of shame bombs all day everyday. Just like in the book “Overcoming BPD” example of asking pwBPD to “pass the butter” at dinner set off several shame bombs. When mine was under 18 I was basically instructed by the school, the authorities and every one else to check in on her constantly and control her bc that was my legal obligation as a parent. It made me and DD completely nuts. When she turned 18 I completely backed off and temperature here at home went down.

[Blind1]

Thank you again for all your insights. I can see how I'm trying to control her to try and make myself feel better. Because this is so new my emotions are all over the place and of course all I want to do is what's best for her. I think my next step is to put something together that shows her "what to expect" when she's 18. She really wants to move out so I'm going to list what she will be responsible for (food, rent, car, phone...) and how much she would have to make (not that she has a job or been looking). Then I will list expectations and rules if she decides to stay home because she wants the car and phone. Then it's up to her.

Obviously I want her to go to therapy and she ditched the one on Thur and the one rescheduled for Fri. I took the car away hoping that would incentive her but it didn't. I want to try and explain to her how important it is without making it seem like all of this is her problem. That's one thing the therapist was going to do but she isn't going.

Thank you all for keeping me grounded. My controlling personality doesn't make this easy at all.

[PeaceMom]

Blind1,

I relate to your posts.
I read something  that really resonated with me as I struggled with being labeled “CoDependent” by a T. It talked about the “Unwilling or Resistant CoDependent” when you have a neuro atypical child. Yes, I can be controlling and impatient, but this is simply my coping mechanism when dealing with explosives. It’s a protective stance for me, especially when I’m depleted  and have too many things coming at me at once.

I just listened to a Q & A w/Marsha Linehan and she said her whole goal w/DBT was to help people figure out how to solve the problems of THEIR lives, figure out why they are miserable in their lives, what it would look like to not be miserable and get the support to get to a life worth living.

I’ve tried to get all 4 of my kids to seek T to get this type of support, currently they refuse my offer and instead seem to want me to assist in problem solving. I’m trying to erect solid boundaries in this area. Very difficult!

[Enabler]

She really wants to move out so I'm going to list what she will be responsible for (food, rent, car, phone...) and how much she would have to make (not that she has a job or been looking). Then I will list expectations and rules if she decides to stay home because she wants the car and phone. Then it's up to her.

Moving out of home is an adult thing to do. As part of your parental goals, managing the transition between them being a baby to an adult, this has to be the utopia. Lets for a minute assume that she wants this goal for wholesome adult reasons.

If you list all the things for her, is she solving her own problems, is she working towards adult behaviour, or are you working them out for her. How could you make this more of a pulling together experience rather than a distancing experience? YOU, don't need to be the barer of bad news, she's perfectly capable of coming to the bad news conclusions herself. You can guide her though. You can be excited with her about her reaching that utopia of personal responsibility. Maybe you could look to help her reach this target by helping her write the list of what that utopia looks like. 

Have you read anything about the Karpman triangle? By writing the list you might think that you are rescuing her... but by shattering her dreams she will see you as the perpetrator, all the time she will consider herself as the victim. Starting from a neutral position of being excited about her fulfilling her dreams there is hope that try as she might... she won't be able to shift you to the perpetrator position. Stop trying to solve her problems, she won't thank you for it. Making moving out seem overwhelming with an onerous list could be considered piling on FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt). Since moving out is a positive adult step towards independence, is it wise to discourage this?

Enabler 

[PeaceMom]

Enabler,
This is very thought provoking. I don’t want to hijack this thread with my own issues, but would like your thoughts if I start in new topic piggy backing this.

[Enabler]

Hey peaceMom, what did you get out of that? What was thought provoking and how does that tie to your  own experience?

[PeaceMom]

Enabler,
I started a new topic piggy-backing off your response. Thanks

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Blind1]

Enabler, that is an interesting perspective. I guess in a way I am trying to scare her so that she stays. I know at some point there is a tough love situation, but as a mother, I'm not ready to throw her at the wolves. Yes she may be 18 but she is only working at a 13 yo mindset. I would never let a 13 yo go. The reason for list was actually a suggestion by the pshy dr at the hospital. He suggested to lay out what she can expect in either situation and let her decide. That way she can own her decision. And I guess then she can't come back to me with "you didn't tell me all this was going to happen". Not that it would matter, your right, they need to figure some of this out on their own. I know I can't treat her like I would my sons, but I would do the same for them, lay it out so they had all the info so they can make an informed decision about what is going to be best for them.

[Enabler]

are you in a position to get her to draw a list up for you, or work with you to produce the list?

[Blind1]

I just replied to PeaceMom's new thread and unfortunately she can't stand to say one word to me. I tried to talk to her Mon and she she scowled at me and said "I don't want to hear anything from you". I was trying to explain why I changed my thinking on having her friends in our house while we are gone. Anyway, I then asked if she was still planning on moving out, I thought maybe I could talk to her about that, but she just scowled again and said "yes, don't worry, I know you want me to leave". She has been saying I hate her for years and that I want her gone. Like I put in the other post, maybe I should just let her go without saying much of anything (other than to tell her we are not financially supporting her anymore so that means no car and no phone) and give us both a break.

[Enabler]

Okay, there seems to be a lack of clarity in your communication with her. I suggest that you don't bundle unassociated things together e.g. are your mates coming over = one conversation. are you moving out = another conversation. If you consider these 2 conversations which might be mutually exclusive to you, they maybe seen as associated by her... my guess is that she heard "Are you mates coming over?"... "Yes"... "then I want you to move out..." Can you see how she might string those two separate conversations together.

To calm things down you need to be extremely purposeful about how multiple conversations are strung together. You are communicating with someone who strings unassociated things together AND views those conversations through a negative lens. She is looking for the negative, waiting for it. Communication can and will be jumbled up rather than taken as individual points.

Slow things down... a lot. Communicate with purpose. Communicate simply and consider your communication through HER smudged lens.

Enabler

[Blind1]

Thanks Enabler. I know I have a long way to go with this. I am so overwhelmed and as much as I read and talk to others about it and try to have it straight in my head, as soon as the situation comes up it's out the window. I appreciate your insights and helping to keep things in perspective.

[Enabler]

If you think about your emotions in the context of BPD, how would you describe them? Excluding shame and abandonment, what is central to BPD?

What happens when this thing happens in BPD land?

Enabler