Ex-wife is asking for copy of passports. Wanting kids to get dual citizenship

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I have full primary and legal custody. My ex is looking for a copy of the passports I believe to request dual citizenship for the children. I still have five children under the age of 18.

When we were married our older kids did get dual citizenship.

My fear is that I may lose any parental advantage if she were to take the kids to her home country and not want to return.  She is from Ecuador and is a country in The Hague agreement.  The older kids have been severely alienated from me. 

Thoughts?

[Sluggo]

I have full primary and legal custody. My ex is looking for a copy of the passports I believe to request dual citizenship for the children. I still have five children under the age of 18.

When we were married our older kids did get dual citizenship.

My fear is that I may lose any parental advantage if she were to take the kids to her home country and not want to return.  She is from Ecuador and is a country in The Hague agreement.  The older kids have been severely alienated from me. 

Thoughts?

[kells76]

Are you legally required to comply with her request?

If not, can you just... not do it? After all, like you said, you have full custody.

What do you think would happen if (a) there was no legal reason you had to agree, and (b) so you didn't?

Also, do you want your kids to have dual citizenship?

[livednlearned]

What do your instincts tell you to do?

[GaGrl]

My stepchildren have gone through the process of establishing a Thai citizenship through their mother -- as adults. There are good reasons for doing so -- none citizens are not allowed to own property, so they could not inherit the two houses their mother owns without being citizens.

You might just let them turn 18 and establish citizenship at that time.

[ForeverDad]

You might just let them turn 18 and establish citizenship at that time.

This may be an excellent answer for you to use rather than a blunt "No".  This may give the impression you are not made of ice, yet you still have your boundary while you have custody during their youth.  (Don't tell her, but once children turn 18, you have little if any legal control over their adult lives anyway.)

Even though her native country may be a member of the Hague Convention, it does not mean the officials will be eager to cooperate with you if she "abducts" them by not returning them.  Some countries are known to slow walk their compliance.  It may become time consuming and quite expensive to resolve after the fact.

Ecuador — The Hague Convention has been in force between Ecuador and the U.S. since 2007. Ecuador has been cited as noncompliant since 2015. Specifically, law enforcement and the judicial branch fail to implement and comply with the Convention.
https://www.frostbecklaw.com/international-family-law/list-of-noncompliant-countries/

Travel.State.gov recommends consulting a knowledgeable attorney for appropriate legal advice.  It notes that parts of Ecuador are unsafe.  "Exercise increased caution in Ecuador due to civil unrest and crime. Some areas have increased risk."

[Turkish]

My ex asked to take the kids to Mexico a few years ago. I said not until they were older teenagers and they could advocate for themselves in case something happened. Our order states that we each need written permission to take the kids out of state.

I'm pretty sure that your exW can't do anything with just passport copies unless she knows a forger.

I should have just said what FD suggested. I think that she'll ask me again when D10 turns 14. I don't think she's a flight risk as her family is here. However, never trust BPD.

You hold the power.

Edit: since their mom is from Mexico, she wanted to get them dual citizenship. I think that's a good idea... when they're 18.

[Sluggo]

Ex wife said the reason why she needs the passports is because she is getting the divorce recognized in Ecuador. 

This was part of her response

The judge in Ecuador needs proof of residence of the children in USA. The way to show that it’s by their school registration that shows their name. It needs to be with the logo of the echo they need those papers immediately. They need the birth certificate of youngest too. The children are involved obviously because their names are in the divorce papers.

I don't understand...  We got married there...but divorced in USA.  She is a citizen of USA and Ecuador.    Why does their need to be more divorce paperwork there? 

[Turkish]

Why would she need it recognized in Ecuador? I'm not sure I'd even ask, sounds suspicious.

[ForeverDad]

Have you seen the documents requesting that?  An immigration attorney with Ecuador contact or familiarity with their processes could verify or refute.

Why the rush?  To enable travel for the youngest?  To get married again?

[Sluggo]

Thank you Turk and FD...  Not sure why rush... I will try find and  reach out to an immigration lawyer to see if  I can get a quick an easy answer. 

I may ask Ex also for document...  But not sure I want to shake that hornets nest yet.

Sluggo

[kells76]

I will try find and  reach out to an immigration lawyer to see if  I can get a quick an easy answer.

Good call to work that angle quietly before making any decisions.

You've been around here long enough to know that "urgency" or "you need to make a decision now" coming from a pwBPD can often be about managing their emotional needs vs something with an actual deadline in reality. So, good job "slowing the roll" on this whole process, thinking things through, and not giving in to the emotional urgency.

Also, there are some decent "free legal advice" websites; you can think about posting your question there, too, though the answers are often pretty brief and can be along the lines of "your question is complicated enough that my answer is that you should get a lawyer". But, it's free, so no $$$ lost.

[livednlearned]

Weird. So your suspicion is that she wants dual citizenship for the younger kids. She is saying the purpose is to show proof of her American divorce?

Good idea to talk to a lawyer.

Maybe this is helpful:

The United States and Ecuador are parties to the Hague Convention Abolishing the Requirement of Legalization for Foreign Public Documents.

The Convention abolishes the requirement of diplomatic and consular legalization for public documents originating in one Convention country and intended for use in another.  Therefore, for U.S. public documents to be valid in Ecuador, including birth or marriage certificates, divorce decrees, court documents, school transcripts or diplomas, one should obtain an apostille.

An apostille can be obtained from either (1) the U.S. Department of State, in the case of documents issued by U.S. federal agencies; (2) Clerks and Deputy Clerks of U.S. Federal Courts, for U.S. Federal Court documents; or (3) the Secretary of State, or other state authority, for documents issued by authorities and notaries public in one of the fifty states or other jurisdiction.

Under the Hague Convention, neither Ecuadorian consular certification, nor any other authentication other than the apostille from one of the three sources listed above, depending upon the authority which issued the document, is required for a U.S. document to be used before an Ecuadorian civil authority.

(from https://ec.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/notarials/apostille/)

I take that to mean that she could pursue an apostille from the Clerk of Court where your divorce decree was issued.

An apostille seems to be some kind of specialized notary (?) that authenticates specific documents.

Apostilles authenticate the seals and signatures of officials on public documents such as birth certificates, court orders, or any other document issued by a federal agency or certified by an American or foreign consul. An apostille certifies the document(s), so the document can be recognized in foreign countries that are members of the 1961 Hague Convention Treaty.

(from https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/records-and-authentications/authenticate-your-document/apostille-requirements.html)

Obviously (?) she doesn't want to disclose what she wants the documents for.

How do you plan on responding to her?

[Sluggo]

You've been around here long enough to know that "urgency" or "you need to make a decision now" coming from a pwBPD can often be about managing their emotional needs vs something with an actual deadline in reality. So, good job "slowing the roll" on this whole process, thinking things through, and not giving in to the emotional urgency.

Thank you Kells!  I will look at the lawyer on line approach...  But your comment puts me at ease about slowing this down. 

[Sluggo]

Therefore, for U.S. public documents to be valid in Ecuador, including birth or marriage certificates, divorce decrees, court documents, school transcripts or diplomas, one should obtain an apostille.

That is great information LnL.  Thank you for taking time to find that. 

[GaGrl]

If an apostille is what my stepchildren had to produce for Thai citizenship, it is a translation of an official document by an approved translation service, then notarized by the country's naturalization or embassy or consular staff. Our kids submitted multiple documents to the consulate in the U.S. so most of the work was done before they went over and finalized.

[Sluggo]

Thank you Gagrl!

Sluggo

[PeteWitsend]

Don't do it!

There was a notorious case in the news here about a divorced American doctor and his Brazilian ex-wife.

She took their son to Brazil "for a visit" and never came back with him.  Brazil is a signatory to the Hague Convention as well... and the kid lives there now.  He has flown to see his son, and is only permitted to visit him under guard.  Her wealthy parents were charged with kidnapping when they travelled to the US for a visit, and it looks like they were acquitted.  (Link: https://abc13.com/brazilian-grandparent-abduction-case-kidnapping-grandparents-accused-of-planning-sons/3141662/)

Obviously their wealth played a role in them flouting the law & an international treaty (!) like that, and I'm not sure if your ex has that sort of means, but it's a sign to be careful.  

I recall discussing this same concern with my attorney a while back; BPDxw is also from another country which is a signatory to the Hague Convention.  My attorney was like "We just handled a similar case, and were in court and had the kids back on a plane a week later!"  I asked how much that cost to prosecute and she said nearly $100,000.  So keep that in mind...  Can you "afford" to have the law on your side here?

[PeteWitsend]

Aside from the "letter of the law," the international order is a very different beast from U.S. domestic courts, and diplomatic concerns between countries and international politics often trump matters between mere mortals like us.  

The way things are going right now, I would not expect any sort of consistency here in how a treaty is applied, OR expect a foreign judge would do the right thing and honor a treaty, when their own standing in their country would weigh in favor of them supporting a local mother/father over one in the U.S.  

Whether you agree with our foreign policy or not, you have to acknowledge that we are not very popular in much of the world right now.  

Also, if you've ever dealt with the U.S. State Department, you may have had your mind blown (like I once did) by the amount of gratuitous contempt they have for regular joes... and I had my congressperson also inquiring on my behalf, and figured they couldn't just blow off a sitting member of congress like that, and at least owed me an answer for why they did what they did (spoiler alert: I never got one, and they got angry with me for even expecting one).  So don't expect any help from them just because you're an American citizen.

[Sluggo]

Thank you Pete!