I fear my abilities to differentiate between a mirrorer and someone genuine

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Mod note: This post was split off from the following thread as it merited its own discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342484.0

Notwendy,

Great you mentioned mirroring. This was mentioned last night as well since my W was everything I wanted for the first 6m. She hung on my every word and seemed so engaged in understanding me. I also fear my abilities to differentiate between a mirrorer and someone who’s genuine.

My T also asked if given everything I knew now, would I date my W again, to which I said yes... I can’t split her in the way she can split me. For all her faults I can see good, I can find reason and rationale. If I took away her BPDisms... well she wouldn’t offer all the good she offers as well. I think my T assumed I would conclude differently.

Expectation that someone will support you is half the battle. Knowing she won’t for a reason removes that expectations and removes some of the disappointment.

Enabler

[Enabler]

Mod note: This post was split off from the following thread as it merited its own discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342484.0

Notwendy,

Great you mentioned mirroring. This was mentioned last night as well since my W was everything I wanted for the first 6m. She hung on my every word and seemed so engaged in understanding me. I also fear my abilities to differentiate between a mirrorer and someone who’s genuine.

My T also asked if given everything I knew now, would I date my W again, to which I said yes... I can’t split her in the way she can split me. For all her faults I can see good, I can find reason and rationale. If I took away her BPDisms... well she wouldn’t offer all the good she offers as well. I think my T assumed I would conclude differently.

Expectation that someone will support you is half the battle. Knowing she won’t for a reason removes that expectations and removes some of the disappointment.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I think one of the reasons relationships with pwBPD's are so tenable is because there is some good in them. Few people are all good and all bad. I guess we have to look at the whole of it.

I know a couple of men who are NPD and they can be quite charming. I can see why women would want to date them, but I don't want to. My mother also has her amazing side and I think my father would say the same thing you do- he'd date her again. I think all these relationships are different and each person has to consider theirs individually.

[SinisterComplex]

Notwendy,

Great you mentioned mirroring. This was mentioned last night as well since my W was everything I wanted for the first 6m. She hung on my every word and seemed so engaged in understanding me. I also fear my abilities to differentiate between a mirrorer and someone who’s genuine.

My T also asked if given everything I knew now, would I date my W again, to which I said yes... I can’t split her in the way she can split me. For all her faults I can see good, I can find reason and rationale. If I took away her BPDisms... well she wouldn’t offer all the good she offers as well. I think my T assumed I would conclude differently.

Expectation that someone will support you is half the battle. Knowing she won’t for a reason removes that expectations and removes some of the disappointment.

Enabler

Enabler, why do you fear your abilities to be able to discern between someone being authentic and genuine vs someone mirroring you?

Cheers!

-SC-

[SinisterComplex]

I'm more afraid of who I will attract and be attracted to. Part of our relationship dysfunction is us, and we "match" our partners in ways. If we don't have good boundaries, other people with good boundaries won't feel comfortable with us, but people with poor boundaries would. I also keep in mind just how good people with PD's are at mirroring and appearing interested in others. Would I be able to tell this or not?

While I can agree with the thought that you do indeed match your partners in ways I would add the disclaimer that you match your partner at that time. That doesn't mean you always will. Personalities are dynamic and not static.

Also, Wendy why would you say you are afraid of who you would attract and be attracted to? If you have done the work necessary and you are truly comfortable in your own skin then that shouldn't be something that makes you afraid correct me if I'm wrong. For all intents and purposes I am just moving the conversation along here. I do find this to be an interesting dialogue.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Enabler]

SC, I have confidence in droves other than it would seem confidence in my physical pull to women... although a friend recently found a picture of me when I was 16 and my instant reaction was “how the £&& did I not pull more chicks then?” I was ripped with an 8 pack. My friends reaction was “you were too nice”. However, I can sympathise with Notwendy here, mirrorers reflect that confidence right back at us. I’ve heard it said that “if you don’t know who you are, someone else will define it for you.” Now don’t get me wrong, I’m a relationship buts of you rub off on the other as you go along, but a pwBPD who naturally doesn’t know who they are instantly morphs into your soul mate. What are you to do? Drop some trick info in there saying you like death metal when actually you hate death metal? Everyone is looking for their perfect match, I think 3,4,5,6... people believe that my W is their perfect soul mate match... and I bet we all like different music genres!

Enabler

[Notwendy]

SC, it's a concern that isn't a reality at the moment as I am married. In general, considering the dynamics between my parents, I am grateful to not be married to someone who is like my severely BPD mother.

I have done the work but it's a work in progress. I don't know if my fear is unfounded. I think it comes from realizing the issues in my FOO. Growing up, this was my "normal" and as an adult, I can see how the dynamics in my FOO are not.  

It also is based on the male acquaintances I know who are NPD. The main way I know this is that I am not in a romantic relationship with them and I am objective about them. I have seen them date several women- and at the time, these women are smitten with them but none of the relationships lasted long. Would I see men like this as objectively if I didn't know them like I know these men? I don't know. I don't know them well, they are acquaintances but I see them in social settings and when they bring different dates to them.

[Cat Familiar]

What are you to do? Drop some trick info in there saying you like death metal when actually you hate death metal?

I love the idea of adding some trick hobby in addition to a real proclivity. I could say I like competing in Cowboy Dressage and going to extreme dog grooming shows.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr9za9nBxdQ     If I were in the market for a new relationship, that would sort out the mirror-ers quickly.

[empath]

Mirroring...

Since my h has his own apartment, we will meet somewhere for coffee or tea. I drink tea, and h used to have coffee. Lately, he's been choosing tea. Not just any tea, it's usually whatever I ordered the last time we were together. I've been changing what I have, so I have noticed it. I suppose this is how he works on the relationship...  That and telling people what they want to hear... 

H was telling me recently that his roommate thinks of h as a soul friend.

[formflier]

I'm glad I've never been asked if I would date my wife again (like in a T session).  I think I would toss the BS flag on that one.

If I said no..that would mean I would be pitching out my kids along with all those memories.

If the question was, you can pick your wife with BPD and have all the same stuff happen or pick someone just like your wife without BPD, have he same kids etc etc...then of course I would pick that (but we all know that's a false choice).

I wonder what your T was getting at?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I wonder what your T was getting at?

It was part of a wider conversation about fears of being attractive to women and a small bout of anxiety I had on the train home from work. It was a bit of a throwaway comment I think he expected an instant 'no' response to... but didn't.

In many respects there's been so much good that's come out of the 23yr experience, she's the ying to my yang and we do compliment each other well when it works... but then there's the periods when it doesn't work. I'm pretty consistent, have pretty firm values and act in a solid, slow and steady way. As is the way she is not very consistent and when the wind changes she drifts away to find herself again... then she comes back and walks along the path with me again. One question I've considered, how much more good would there have been without BPD traits? It's actually pretty painful thinking about the years of dead time I have been walking along my straight and sensible path without my companion with me.

Empath, my W has even adopted other people's laughs... like weird 'niche' laughs... That was odd.

Enabler

[Skip]

I also fear my abilities to differentiate between a mirrorer and someone who’s genuine.

Everyone mirrors. It is a normal human trait. It is a key psychological element in how friendships and relationship develop. We all learn from experience that mirroring works... we seek to find and nurture common interests. The more we want to make a connection, the more we will mirror and even over extend ourselves.

What do dress for success books say? Dress like the boss. Mirror him. Mirroring is powerful.

In the secondary stages of relationships (romantic, especially) we all get concerned that we have given up too much of our identity and we try to break free from that fear and assert independence - otherwise we feel engulfed and resentful. Yes, I like the colorful dog contest, but once a year is enough!

SC, I have confidence in droves other than it would seem confidence in my physical pull to women...

Why do people stay in abusive relationships?  Fear. This is one of your big ones.

It was a bit of a throwaway comment I think he expected an instant 'no' response to... but didn't.

I doubt if this was a throwaway - if he is a note taker, that comment will be underlined in the notes. It is pivotal to understanding you and your struggle to let go of a clearly non-fulfillling relationship.

In many respects there's been so much good that's come out of the 23yr experience, she's the ying to my yang and we do compliment each other well when it works...

Would she say that?

Did you every sit down and score each of the 23 years on a scale of 1 to 100?  Or even each of the 5 periods? That might be a good thing to share here.

Year 1-3
4-8
9-13
14-18
19-23

It's good that you both are getting help on disentangling the many years of living together.  

[Enabler]

Hey Skip, some good point there and yes I agree that fear has kept me in a non-functioning relationship.

My W has said before that she has many happy memories and likes many of my qualities. At points, probably when we're higher than 0 she'd likely say I was her perfect match... but then at others she definitely wouldn't, so we'd probably agree there. She's even told other people a similar thing. I tried to score each quarter on a range of -10 to +10 and then pad out events of each quarter in an attempt to see if there was any determinable pastern.

Q4  1997            10
Q1  1998            10
Q2  1998            5
Q3  1998            -5
Q4  1998            -5
Q1  1999            5
Q2  1999            5
Q3  1999            5
Q4  1999            5
Q1  2000            5
Q2  2000            5
Q3  2000            -3
Q4  2000            10
Q1  2001            5
Q2  2001            -3
Q3  2001            -4
Q4  2001            -6
Q1  2002            -6
Q2  2002            -6
Q3  2002            -6
Q4  2002            -6
Q1  2003            -6
Q2  2003            -6
Q3  2003            -10
Q4  2003            -10
Q1  2004            -8
Q2  2004            0
Q3  2004            5
Q4  2004            5
Q1  2005            5
Q2  2005            0
Q3  2005            5
Q4  2005            5
Q1  2006            5
Q2  2006            -2
Q3  2006            -2
Q4  2006            -2
Q1  2007            -5
Q2  2007            -5
Q3  2007            0
Q4  2007            5
Q1  2008            10
Q2  2008            10
Q3  2008            10
Q4  2008            5
Q1  2009            5
Q2  2009            10
Q3  2009            10
Q4  2009            10
Q1  2010            10
Q2  2010            10
Q3  2010            10
Q4  2010            10
Q1  2011            10
Q2  2011            5
Q3  2011            5
Q4  2011            5
Q1  2012            5
Q2  2012            5
Q3  2012            8
Q4  2012            8
Q1  2013            8
Q2  2013            8
Q3  2013            8
Q4  2013            8
Q1  2014            8
Q2  2014            5
Q3  2014            -3
Q4  2014            2
Q1  2015            0
Q2  2015            -3
Q3  2015            -5
Q4  2015            -5
Q1  2016            -8
Q2  2016            -8
Q3  2016            -8
Q4  2016            -8
Q1  2017            -10
Q2  2017            -10
Q3  2017            -10
Q4  2017            -10
Q1  2018            -10
Q2  2018            -9
Q3  2018            -8
Q4  2018            -7
Q1  2019            -6
Q2  2019            -7
Q3  2019            -8
Q4  2019            -10

49 Quarters above 0
40 Quarters below 0

[formflier]

Tell me more about 13 going into 14.  A trend started there that hasn't reversed. 

What was different about that "turning point".

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

From 05-12 I worked for an out of town hedge fund,  “city” job with 20 min drive commute... I was made redundant with 3 other guys as a team.

Whilst off work I was the model house husband as well as redecorating the house top to bottom.

D6 was born in May13.

12-13 (20m) we looked for work as a team until I bit the bullet and went solo. Took a job in the city for a US Bank doing “gods work”. 7am till 7-8-9-10-11 and no warning as to which one of those it was going to be. Plus 1.5hr commute. In Dec my father was diagnosed with Lymphoma (died 18m later).

I changed jobs back to trading in May14 still with 1.5hr commute, W didn’t return to work though.

The change was that given the load I had to carry with work commitments I expected my W to adopt the role that I did (actually some of that role not all) whilst out of work. She decided not to, in fact she decided to ditch “chores” in favour of her own hobbies. I didn’t expect her to scrub the house every day, just show that she respected the work I was doing for her and the kids and prioritise me, our home, anything other than just herself. She found friends who told her that this was abusive and so the divide grew and grew and grew.

Dad died in 2015, I was emotionally unavailable and pretty full to the brim emotionally... and she chose to ignore this or more likely freaked out about the idea of supporting someone rather than being supported... and I kept going back to the dry well to get water only to be disappointed.

On a rainy London such is today it reminds me of the number of times I’ve walked home in the rain, not even a msg offering a quick lift home to save getting wet. It would never ever ever occur to her, yet it would be my first though “ow, I’ll offer W a lift to save her getting wet”, even if it meant bundling all the kids in the car and getting a little soggy myself.

It never made any sense why I was never a for thought.

Enabler

[formflier]

It never made any sense why I was never a for thought.

I get the vibe of how things changed.  Uggg.

I'm sorry she didn't think of you.  I hope you can stop trying to figure it out and realize that this is just a "truth" or "axiom" that you have to deal with in life.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I was in a relationship that was he best thing ever 2 years. And then it eroded. At first the good times/bad times were 100/0.  In time in was 80/20.  The is was 60/40. 

You hold on to those good times. I held on to those good times.

But at some point, we have to realize that the season for our relationship has passed. If you look at the quality of your relationship since 2011, there is not much "good time" there.

My relationship has been over for over a decade. I can honestly say she was on of the greatest loves of my life. I remember the good and am thankful to have lived it. But I know it was only meant to be for a couple of years. I held on for longer than a I should. It was OK.

It will be OK for you too... it's good that you are seeing that.

[SinisterComplex]

I was in a relationship that was he best thing ever 2 years. And then it eroded. At first the good times/bad times were 100/0.  In time in was 80/20.  The is was 60/40. 

You hold on to those good times. I held on to those good times.

But at some point, we have to realize that the season for our relationship has passed. If you look at the quality of your relationship since 2011, there is not much "good time" there.

My relationship has been over for over a decade. I can honestly say she was on of the greatest loves of my life. I remember the good and am thankful to have lived it. But I know it was only meant to be for a couple of years. I held on for longer than a I should. It was OK.

It will be OK for you too... it's good that you are seeing that.

This is perhaps one of the hardest and toughest lessons for us to learn as humans. It makes zero difference if you are male or female...your ego has a tendency to get the best of you and when you are invested you dig your heels in further and you hold on tighter and usually when you are at that point you honestly don't know why other than it is the fear of the unknown driving you.

Skip, I hope everyone can take away your thoughts of reflection here and apply it to themselves because it is truly the best way to go about it. Be honest about your feelings, accept it wasn't meant to be, learn the lessons from the failed relationship, and move on to a new and improved YOU.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[once removed]

She hung on my every word and seemed so engaged in understanding me.

there are different psychoanalytic theories and simplifications when it comes to "categories/types" of "bpd relationships". one is the classic "codependent+bpd". one is "npd+bpd". there are others.

one is that people with bpd need someone to mirror, and that their partners need to be mirrored. it makes for an intense attraction where both parties feel that theyve met their soul mate.

In the secondary stages of relationships (romantic, especially) we all get concerned that we have given up too much of our identity and we try to break free from that fear and assert independence - otherwise we feel engulfed and resentful.

what follows can be a lot of hurt and confusion when this happens.

as Skip said, mirroring is not a bad thing. it facilitates bonding. everyone likes it when someone looks them in the eye, nods with excitement, laughs at their jokes.

Drop some trick info in there saying you like death metal when actually you hate death metal? Everyone is looking for their perfect match

i know the first part of that is a joke. but it does make me wonder, what sort of qualities would you look for in the perfect partner, the perfect match? what do those things mean to you?

[Enabler]

Morning everyone,

When I look back and analyse my relationship I see that 'our time' or should I say 'our times' have been reasonably evenly spread over the course of the relationship. There hasn't necessarily been one single period of time where we've connected and then when that situation didn't exist we were no longer compatible. Compatibility was always there and without other factors changing 'our time' would have remained. When I overlay a factor of me being 'present'... be that emotionally or physically, it sheds more light onto the underlying cause of when bad things happened.

97-00 - University... rocky and push and pull but net net probably the best. Rocky and push came from her lack of trust in me with 'others', v v v v v jealous.
01 - travelling... awesome... no distance, no need for trust, no reasons for insecurities to impact relationship
01-05 - Married, both working in different parts of London, HUGE issues with jealousy and me neglecting her and abandoning her. V volatile period with me not understanding accusations and lack of trust.
05-07 - she 'numbed out'
07 - numbing out came to a head
08 - 12 -  Recycled, she had T for a while, wrote letters to old friends she had wronged, sat her parents down and told them she felt abused by them as a kid, they rejected the idea. We had D11. Relationships are 'less' of everything when raising young kids especially when all of them have reflux as newborns but there was definite togetherness dealing with the problems together.
12-present -  Physical and emotional abandonment by me either depressed due to redundancy, physically out for work in London, emotionally unavailable processing Dads illness and death.

I don't really accept the idea that we 'had our time and place' and that time and place has passed. I get that you can drink €2 Cava from Spain and it tastes like the biggest bargain on the planet; bring 10 bottles back in the car and open them at home and they taste revolting and you chuck all of them away! I don't feel like this is one of those situations. There was a 'thing' in the background that has never been dealt with, a thing that's been festering behind the scene, a thing that I suspect she partly dealt with in 2007 in T and when she approached her parents (I only found this out in 2017), a thing that comes into play during stressful periods and more so when I'm emotionally or physically 'absent'. When 'the thing' comes into play a set of behaviours (by both of us) result in a predictable set of outcomes.

Mirroring on a minor scale I get, I do it and I wouldn't say I'm a massive mirrorer. Typically I mirror with turn of phrases... lingo etc etc. There are fads and fashions that we all hook on to, ideas that we adopt. In a relationship we each bring different, new ideas to the party... Cheese and coleslaw toasted sandwiches from my W. Holistically though I only adopt small influences from others and my values, political views, music tastes, ethics are reasonably constant and change with reason or data. I have watched my W change her whole outlook, value set, music tastes and clothing style... and her laugh based on the 1 or 2 super super close friend of the moment. I even see her adopt a completely different 'her' when she's around different sets of people in a one week period. That's what I mean by mirroring. I could go from work, to Mums, to old friends to village mates wearing the same clothes... I'm not sure my W could just as an example.

OR  - what would I want from a new partner?

- Enough self assurance to be able to look outwards rather than inwards in an intimate relationship
- Problem solving/resolution attitude
- Strong enough to support me sometimes and strong to ask me for help sometimes, but strong enough to support herself most of the time
- Kind
- Ability to take a joke as well as she can give a joke
- Sense of humour
- Inquisitive and a thirst for knowledge
- Loves the 'grey', not black and white
- Adventurous
- Sociable
- "The radiator in the living room seems to be cold, I checked YouTube and it probably needs bleeding but In can't find the rad key, do you know where it might be and I'll get on and do that" ... I think I've died and gone to heaven.
- "Saw these really pretty cushions in John Lewis, they were £100, I've already found the material online for £10, can you teach me how to use the sewing machine sometime?"... missing a heartbeat already.
- "I fancy dinner out tonight, I want to go to XYZ place, I've booked it already, we've got some spare money this month even after I've added some to savings." ... just fell off my chair.
- "I'm sorry, I was out of line last night, I had a rough day at work and it wasn't your fault, sorry"
- "Come straight upstairs when you get in..."
- Smoking hot but lets 'others' know she's not available.

Enabler

[Skip]

2008 - 2012 -  Recycled, she had T for a while, wrote letters to old friends she had wronged, sat her parents down and told them she felt abused by them as a kid, they rejected the idea. We had D11. Relationships are 'less' of everything when raising young kids especially when all of them have reflux as newborns but there was definite togetherness dealing with the problems together.

I don't know if you noticed, but except for this 4 year window around the birth of first child, you describe your 23 marriage as struggling with the last eight years being worse than the first 13, and declining to the point of divorce.

You seem to be holding on for a "turn-around" of some sort... is there something in this history that suggests that, very best case, you might have a brief turn-around like before?  Or are you saying the struggling relationship that you have would be good enough...

[Enabler]

I think what I am saying is that before, there was something, something I couldn't put a name to, didn't understand and couldn't rationalise. That something was so out of my field of vision, so unimaginable and unknown (even though I had come close to describing it numerous time in letters and emails) I could not frame it appropriately... and it damaged me.

I'm not saying that I want to go back to 'that' and that it would be 'different' if we allowed us to go back there... although like all things, it wasn't all bad as much as it wasn't all good, there were tons of great times even in the bad times (we've had good moments in the last several months). It would be different, but would it be good, I'm not sure. It would require work. However, what I have said and what I still say is that I vowed to give my W every opportunity to do what she needs to do to... and at the moment it would seem she doesn't think she needs to do anything, and all the stomach aches, the headaches, the lies she knows she tells, the anger she has, the sub-optimal relationship she's jumping into... well that's just all my fault. She might not have a eureka moment, and divorce we shall find, and that seems likely.

The path back up the metaphorical hill our marriage has rolled down is actually as hard and full of my own boundaries as the route down towards divorce. It wouldn't be easy for either of us... none of this is comfortable. I'm not holding on, I'm standing back, I'm at the very very very back of the cage lying down on the stone bunk with my eyes shut whilst she hovers around the cage door oiling the door because it squeaks a little, changes her jacket a few times because she's not quite sure how chilly it is outside, and it might rain, telling me how great it's going to be when she's free of the cage, whilst she's working out how many cushions she needs to throw out to break her fall in cash OM doesn't catch her and look after her outside the cage...

Today I am doing homework for my Child T session on Friday. Joint Goals for the kids in Co-parenting, Goals for how the kids will learn to treat others. It's been interesting, however challenging not to have goals which don't come across as passive aggressive... they aren't, they are genuine goals, certain things are things I DO NOT WANT or DO WANT for my kids future in or out of the marriage.

Enabler

[Skip]

Today I am doing homework for my Child T session on Friday. Joint Goals for the kids in Co-parenting, Goals for how the kids will learn to treat others. It's been interesting, however challenging not to have goals which don't come across as passive aggressive... they aren't, they are genuine goals, certain things are things I DO NOT WANT or DO WANT for my kids future in or out of the marriage.

Why not share that here... he have a lot of members who have been through the co-parenting transition.

[Enabler]

Work in progress I will when I’ve finished it

[Enabler]

SETTING JOINT GOALS

“If you do not know where you are going, you cannot know how to get there” – Irish Proverb

Start with Vision:  Have a vision of what you want your children’s lives to be like, not only as they go through childhood but also when they reach adulthood. Look at the list below, because these are some of your choices:

1.   I want our children to feel free to transition between their 2 homes. I want them to feel like they have 2 homes, both equally welcoming offering different qualities and environments.
2.   I want our children to grow up free from the emotional scars of coming from a broken home. I would like them to witness and have an appreciation of what a loving caring relationship between 2 adults is, and aspire to have that in their own future.
3.   I want our children to be free from the feelings of guilt about enjoying their time with either parent.
4.   I would like our children to grow knowing that they have full access to the academic, spiritual and practical resources of each parent. This could be help with homework, talking about relationships or understanding the universe. 
5.   I would like our children to grow up with a clear vision of their reality. I would like them to be raised in an environment free from deceit, manipulation, guilt and shame.
6.   I would like the children to make happy positive memories they will carry through to their adulthood and aspire to repeat with their own children.
7.   I would like our children to grow up with the knowledge that their parents can be cordial with each other, happy in the joint knowledge we want the very best for them and are able to put their personal differences aside for their betterment.
8.   I would like our children to be raised within a consistent environment with firm age appropriate boundaries that are known, and consistently enforced with appropriate discipline. I would like these boundaries to be broadly harmonized across both homes such that there is consistence across their home(s) environment. I would like any significant changes to these boundaries to be discussed (between us, and with them) before boundaries are moved.
9.   I would like our children to have a full appreciation for the world they live in, be free to travel and explore that world with each parent. I want them to be excited about what they might see rather than scared of the uncertainty ahead of them.
10.   I want our children to grow spiritually with opportunities to shape their own spiritual beliefs, having the choice to participate or not participate in religious activities as they choose.
11.   I would like my children to grow up free from self harm, eating disorders, drug and alcohol abuse.

You might agree to another set of goals.  This will help shape the co-parenting relationship because children learn in two ways from their parents:  what their parents say and what their parents do:

•   How they will treat their children and spouse someday?
•   How do you want them to treat co-workers and friends?
•   What skills do you want them to have?
•   How do you want your children to treat people generally?

1.   I would like our children to have the emotional capacity to be outward looking, sufficiently confident in themselves to be able to give love as well as receive love.
2.   I would like our children to have an understanding of what a healthy relationship looks like, and what an unhealthy relationship looks like, and know that it’s okay to leave an unhealthy relationship.
3.   I would like our children to grow up knowing healthy boundaries. I would like them to be equipped with the skills to defend those boundaries in a confident manner.
4.   I would like our children to treat people appropriately
5.   I would like to equip our children with skills of negotiation, help them have the confidence to confront difficult situations with the appropriate tools to enable them to be conflict resolvers rather than conflict creators.
6.   Encourage ‘Grey’ thinking instead of seeing things in Black and White.
7.   Encourage listening
8.   Demonstrate the benefits of honesty and encourage the strength to stomach being truthful in ALL situations.
9.   I would like them to be financially responsible
10.   I would like them to grow up knowing their productive importance in the world, whether that be in employment, a home maker, in voluntary work or in a sports team. Skills such as reliability & dependability.
11.   I would like them to have an appreciation of rest, relaxation and recuperation. I would like them to work to live, not live to work. 

ESTABLISHING RULES OF CONDUCT

All relationships require having rules of conduct.  Sometimes these are very obvious and everyone just knows what they are.  When we meet someone and they say their name and put their hand out, we know the rule that we should say our name and shake hands. However, sometimes a person needs to be told.  You might get a job and be told that it is a rule that no one can interrupt each other in a conference room.  In one relationship, being a little late might not be a problem, and therefore there is no rule.  In another relationship, being late might be a problem, suggesting there be a rule about being on time.

For the post-separation and post-divorce co-parenting relationship to work well, parents need to establish some basic rules of conduct.  These usually include:

•   Being courteous to each other (being on time, keeping each other informed, making requests in a respectful manner, and greeting each other cordially.)
•   Being honest with each other.
•   Keeping agreements that are made.
•   Refraining from name calling, yelling, swearing, criticizing, blaming and so on.
•   Staying on topic, i.e. limiting the discussion to child-related or parenting issues.
•   Respecting each other’s privacy.
•   Making very clear and very explicit agreements – nailing down details.

1.   Inform the other partner about all, medical, academic, personal, social & practical ‘news’ in relation to the children as soon as practical. Giving the other partner the clearest picture of what they have missed as possible. 
2.   Discuss new ground rules / punishments where practical before implementation
3.   Whilst living with each other, being honest about being out with other partners e.g. I do not want to unknowingly enable W being with OM.
4.   Making very clear and very explicit agreements, and adhere to the agreement
5.   Assist with providing/sharing ‘kit’ for activities of the others choice for their time with the kids. We have a lot of shared possessions still, it is fruitless to try and spoil each other’s time with the children. Assist in helping the kids prepare for their time with the other parent.
6.   Share photographs of the children’s experiences/significant events with each other
7.   Respect each other’s rite to their own time. Do not emotionally blackmail the other in an attempt to get them to look after the children ad-hoc. Respect a “no, that doesn’t work for me” with no assumptions made.

[Cat Familiar]

Great, well thought our plan! 

[Fian]

I am thinking about your original question.  I would put it as, someone that is super nice to me, but treats everyone else (and eventually me) poorly.  We all put our best foot forward in a relationship, but for those with a PD, the difference between the 2 groups can be night and day.

In answer to how you can detect it, the above phrasing indicates the answer.  Don't focus so much on how well they treat you.  Focus more on how they treat others.  How do they treat their parents and siblings?  Do they often complain about how horrible certain people are?  How do they treat the waitress at the table and other people in activities that you share?

And the last part, how do other people in their life view them?  When you visit their family, what kind of vibe do you get from the parents/siblings about them?  If they are estranged from their family, or seek to avoid interacting with them, that would be a red flag.  Do they have long term friends?  Do their friends have a high opinion of them?  Do they have close relationships or just casual ones?

[Enabler]

These are good observations.

Funny, when I met my W, she was a fresher at uni (so was I), she’s come with her best mate from school. The friend took me aside and said “Enabler, be careful, you’re a nice guy, she will chew you up and spit you out, I’ve seen it before”... of course I didn’t believe her and was getting laid so what did I care! She left after the first year due to my W making her life intolerable.

Funny how initially we’re treated like gods but once devaluation begins all others are treated with the red carpet treatment.

Perplexing

[Fian]

These are good observations.

Funny, when I met my W, she was a fresher at uni (so was I), she’s come with her best mate from school. The friend took me aside and said “Enabler, be careful, you’re a nice guy, she will chew you up and spit you out, I’ve seen it before”... of course I didn’t believe her and was getting laid so what did I care! She left after the first year due to my W making her life intolerable.

This is where Biblical prohibition on sex before marriage makes a big deal.  Once sex is involved, even if you see the red flags, it is very hard to break off the relationship.

[Enabler]

Very true.

Any thoughts on my goals etc? I have the second meeting tomorrow.

[Fian]

If you are asking me, this really isn't an area where I have any experience.  Some of your goals don't seem very realistic to me:

• "2.   I want our children to grow up free from the emotional scars of coming from a broken home. I would like them to witness and have an appreciation of what a loving caring relationship between 2 adults is, and aspire to have that in their own future." - there are going to be scars and their view of a loving relationship will be affected as well.  The best you can do is try to minimize the damage
• " I would like our children to be raised within a consistent environment with firm age appropriate boundaries that are known, and consistently enforced with appropriate discipline. I would like these boundaries to be broadly harmonized across both homes such that there is consistence across their home(s) environment. I would like any significant changes to these boundaries to be discussed (between us, and with them) before boundaries are moved." - I guess it is fine to have a goal, but reality will probably be much less than this.
• "I want our children to grow spiritually with opportunities to shape their own spiritual beliefs, having the choice to participate or not participate in religious activities as they choose." - my view of parenting is different on this - you lead children to the truth, you don't let them decide
• "Whilst living with each other, being honest about being out with other partners e.g. I do not want to unknowingly enable W being with OM." - I don't understand this one.  Ultimately if the decision is to separate your lives, probably the less you know about her other life, the better.