Response, how do I handle not in-person attacks?

[UBPDHelp]

I hope it’s okay to start a new topic as, while this is a result of triggers, it is more specifically about how to respond in different situations.

One, situation happened this weekend. H is notorious for asking me or kids things like: what do you want for dinner or what restaurant? When we answer, he’ll say okay, but then 5 minutes later will be like, are you sure, we could go to X?  Regardless of how you answer, he offers another option and then gets frustrated at the indecision (that he created) and says forget it, we’ll just eat pb&j.  Now, we always ask what he wants and he’ll say he doesn’t care, but then he does (part of the expected mind reading).

It happens with every decision, so much that I’ve told my FIL, to just ask H what he wants b/c he’s the one who will complain (this is before I realized there was a whole lot more than normal going on).

So, this weekend we were planning to have friends over and what to eat. We came up with a few things and I said I’d go grab the stuff we needed at the store. He changed his mind and was like forget it, we’ll just eat what we have. I said okay and just sat down.

Normally, I’d try to convince him it would be nice and let’s just do it, but I’m just over trying to make him feel better when he makes me feel like this.  

So what did I do right? Wrong?  What should I have done differently?

BUT more importantly now is the fact that he’s back to sending these nasty text messages.

Do I reply that I am not accepting them when he speaks this way? Just ignore them?  How do I stop this particular behavior?

The best part is that he knows he’s wrong because he’ll make sure I delete them. Like he got so mad once when I didn’t because “the fact that I kept it meant that I was using it” (vile comments about ex). I’m like, you’re the one who sent it, why is this my fault?  

He sent one to me and my son a while ago and I think he now knows he damaged their relationship (crazy at S) but can’t ask son to delete b/c it would be so obvious that he is flawed. So he has to live with that one.

Anyway, how do I handle not in-person attacks?

I honestly think he has them cut and paste somewhere because many are verbatim.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[UBPDHelp]

Thank you to whoever updated my title.   

If anyone can quickly offer insight as I am getting an onslaught of messages and don’t know if I should ignore or put my foot down. 

Open to all advice!  Thanks!

[pursuingJoy]

Is the onslaught of messages a result of deciding what to eat or is it back to the boyfriend jealousy?

Without knowing what the text messages say, is there any version of SET (support, empathy, truth) that might be an appropriate response? It's a kind and gentle way of pushing back the limit. I'm still learning this tool myself but I'll take a shot, hoping more seasoned veterans will jump in if I made a mistake:

Support: I want to try to help you feel better.
Empathy: I understand you feel angry and frustrated.
Truth: I heard you say that you preferred to eat food at home, so I sat down. Have you changed your mind?

Support: I love you. I'd like to help you feel better.
Empathy: I hear your frustration and anger.
Truth: It is not unusual for people to have multiple relationships before they marry. You and I both dated people before we met and I have not seen or spoken with my boyfriend in 30 years.

More on SET techniques here.

I know you need a quick response, just want to let you know we're here.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi PursuingJoy,

Bless you for replying.

The onslaught is about the old bf.  He can take ANYthing and relate it back.

I forgot the dry cleaning, it’s because I’m an immoral slut.

Ran out of bread, immoral slut.

The fill in connection is that I would bend over backwards for the bf, but can’t even remember the bread for him and then we have launch. It requires no verbal communication from me. Just launch.

It’s been a few hours and I haven’t opened the last couple (I think he can tell if I do, but not sure) and it’s been quiet.

That said, I’m on a group message with him and my youngest son and the conversation is pleasant there but he is not directly responding to me.

Do I ignore it like it didn’t happen? Tell him to stop (stop makes him angry)?

I know he’s stressed and unhappy at work and I’ve been trying to help, but the truth is there is not much I can do and not a whole lot he can either.

I think this is the reason this time that it’s just so close to the surface. And he thinks my past is the cause of all his problems.

So, because it’s not about something I want to validate or even empathize with (we have discussed at length 1000s of times), what do I do to get this to stop?

I don’t deserve it regardless if I was an immoral slut (immoral perhaps, slut no).  I’ve asked forgiveness, and privately. The one who is supposed to give it has. Glass houses.

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks again PursuingJoy,

I meant to say that I have tried to SET with the bf stuff but he just loses it that it doesn’t go very far.

There are broken egg shells all over the house. 

One “wrong” word and he’ll become hyper focused on what I meant by it.  He gets it in his head and literally will bring it up years later.

Who wants to waste their life on this.  It’s really getting me when we’ve been married for 25+ years and 4 kids and there’s a question here?

And, really, you married me, had 4 kids with me and 12-15 years in you decide the bf thing is too much?

He doesn’t really accuse me of cheating (never have, never will) but when he throws out divorce he has said he’d do dna testing on the kids. Ha, if you want waste your money.

But that’s also annoying to listen to.  I want peace and harmony, the usual life issues and I’ll never get it at this rate.

What am I doing?

[pursuingJoy]

I was in an emotionally abusive relationship, 3 kids and 7 years. I understand. My concern is for you and how you are managing all of this. How does he respond if you simply respond, dispassionately, "Please don't call me an immoral slut" and leave the room or not respond after that?

I can tell you know this, but I want to say it anyway: this is obviously not about you. pwBPD learn to do things that work to serve their emotional needs. It could be that calling you an immoral slut serves to protect him from facing his own failure or shame, something that would be terrifying for a person with BPD.

[UBPDHelp]

Not great, but I think it has more to do with not having a job right now and wanting to give a lot of space but not really being able to do so.  Because I am financially dependent on him. Mistake I am trying to correct but not going well yet.

I have tried for years to reassure and make things better but no matter how good things are, they always cycle back.  It saddens me when I think I’ll be someone’s grandma one day and still be being called an immoral slut. Guess I’m used to being someone’s mother and being called it.
(I haven’t had some of the tools, to be fair).

It is simply unacceptable.

If I tell him I won’t be a part of the conversation, he may stop, or at least not engage for a while. He’ll usually calm down but usually I have to offer some kind of nugget (sometimes apology, but only when I know I was wrong about some part of it).

But it really feels like it will never change. I understand he’s stressed about having to change jobs and maybe career paths. I’ve updated his resume, asked him what he wants to do, how can I help and not pushed for answers so he can figure it out. But he’s miserable.

He’s started with anxiety attacks and vomiting but they come and go.  He threatens suicide (he does NOT mean it, I believe he is too narcissistic—correct me if I’m wrong).  These come and go and NEVER have to do with me being an immoral slut, more that his life is not what he expected.

It seems so selfish. He makes a ton of money (but I feel doesn’t spend it well, always wants vacations, new car, etc), has happy, healthy kids, and wife who loved him (yes, not sure I can muster it much anymore) and kept a clean home and took care of everything on the home front.  It’s not enough.  Seems so thoughtless when others around us struggle so much.

I am sorry you went through this, too. Kudos to you for having the strength to break free. Bless you, really. 

[UBPDHelp]

Okay, so he comes home, says hi to the kids that are home, ignores me and then goes to get changed.

Has been home for 2 hours and has not come out of our room but will later when my son gets home in an hour or so. 

Am I supposed to let him sit in there?  Am I supposed to go talk to him?

When things are “okay” I go chat with him for a few minutes and then we sit down for dinner. 

Do I just pretend everything is fine?  Do I bring up the texts?  I’d rather not start a whole battle b/c I’m tired and just want peace.

Do I just let him go days without speaking to me until he does so in a reasonable manner?

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi UBPDHelp,

I found a workshop on handling verbal abuse that might be helpful to you. In situations where your h is calling you degrading names, I believe that you should focus on a boundary to protect yourself. If a dysregulation has escalated to the level of name calling, I don't think SET is going to work much for that. The tools work in some situations but not in all, and they are better for times of calm.

Take a look at this and see if it resonates with you:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=87204.0

[UBPDHelp]

Thank you I am redeemed.  I have seen that thread (maybe you or one of the other amazing people shared it with me!), but the reminder is great!

This is spot on.  My uBPDH definitely projects and definitely tells me what I think and feel.  And, I have for years defended and justified and simply could not understand why this made him angrier.

I have desperately been trying to not JADE any longer but I tend to answer questions when people ask so still fumble a bit.

Last night I told him we had discussed the topic to death (it is not fixable) and that nothing productive could come from it. We discussed and I said I simply was not willing to continue discussing any more (it will come up again, no doubt).

He grumpily agrees to drop it and we have a fairly ok night. This morning he starts texting again.

He wants me to acknowledge that I’ve seen the rage message. I do. Then he says snarky about if I made him happy. I tell I will (know not my responsibility but plan to redirect to helping him make himself happy later).

He now thinks I’m being insincere and flippant.  I tell him I’m not and that I am sorry if that’s how I made him feel (trying to SET, but not sure I did it right).

He said that I always seem to be proud of it (?) and that it was okay. I simply say that that’s not what I think.

Now he’s quiet. I have no idea if he’s done or just busy writing a rage text.

Any suggestions on what I can do better?

Ultimately I would like this conversation to be done. I can’t change the trigger (not like I don’t like the blue paint), the old bf will always be in the past.

Is it even possible to get this to stop and am I going to forever be exhausted from dodging minefields?

[UBPDHelp]

Okay, so he’s not done.

I thought since we talked about it and he calmed down, that trying to SET with today’s texts would work (I know my attempt wasn’t perfect).

He thinks I’m lying and just says I am proud of it. And a whole lot more along these lines for a total rant.

Part of my problem is that I’m juggling 4 kids, trying to get a job, run a household, etc., and I just can’t distinguish the cues he’s giving about what’s going to set him off. It’s just never ending.

I truly feel just defeated. Totally defeated.

[pursuingJoy]

I know you're exhausted, UBPDhelp.    I would be too.

I read through the link that I Am Redeemed shared and want to pull out a piece that I think may be helpful to you:

"Don't spend a second trying to explain why you weren't doing what you were accused of doing or guilty of being blamed for. Just say "stop it!". Abusive statements are lies about you which are told to you. They violate your boundaries. The abuser in effect invades your mind, makes up a "story" about your motives, and then tells it to you. No human being has the right to do that to another. Offering up defenses, trying to justify your actions, hoping that "if you just explain yourself more clearly, they will understand" - all of this will make things worse, not better.

Generally, accusing and blaming involve lies about the partners intentions, attitudes, and motives. They leave us feeling misunderstood and frustrated, and wanting to explain ourselves. If we do, the abuse is then perpetuated.

Your H is making up stories about your motivations and that's not ok. It's also ineffective to explain anything. Based on what you've shared about your situation, as IAR pointed out, SET might not be the best tool to use. The simple message of saying no then taking a time-out may be a more effective method of boundary-setting. If he's closed himself up in his room, it's ok to give him time to be alone.

Does that sound doable for now?

[UBPDHelp]

Hi PursuingJoy,

Yes and yes!  I agree, that passage made total sense.

When he had calmed down but then expressed his feelings, I thought I could manage SET.  And I thought it worked because the conversation ceased (not in person).  But then he reappeared with a new attack.

I spoke to him on the phone and he really does seem to want to be heard (he actually says it).  I told him I did.

The thing is, I don’t see how to ever move forward if he constantly reverts to the past. I can’t change it, but do I have to re-live it forever?  I don’t know how to get him to let it go. He says by making him happy, which in a normal relationship is “reasonable”. I don’t think that’s the sole purpose, but rather the result that is expected for a worthwhile relationship. Does that make sense?

But in this relationship, it feels like the usual happy is an ever-changing, unattainable unknown — and that makes it feel impossible. And, does that make sense? 

Am I lazy?  Should I be trying harder?  I don’t think I started there, at least.

Also, I meant to include this concern before. One aspect I don’t love about setting the boundary and walking away is that I feel like his truth (which he is entitled to, I guess) is not mine (and when it’s how I feel, I think I know) and I feel that the “truth” inches further away from reality.   It is NOT about being right or getting the last word (I wouldn’t say another word if I didn’t have to have this circular argument ever again!).

What am I doing wrong?  Am I looking at this the wrong way?

Truly bless you all for your patient guidance. I really feel supported and like things are starting to make more sense.

[Ozzie101]

He says by making him happy, which in a normal relationship is “reasonable”. I don’t think that’s the sole purpose, but rather the result that is expected for a worthwhile relationship. Does that make sense?

Yes. Personally, I don't believe you can make someone happy -- or someone can make you happy. Happiness is, in many ways, an internal choice. But that's just how I see it. It's also a byproduct of a mutually rewarding relationship.

But in this relationship, it feels like the usual happy is an ever-changing, unattainable unknown — and that makes it feel impossible. And, does that make sense? 

It does make sense. I've experienced something similar with my H. In his case, it's not about making him happy. It's taking his side and "helping" him with his stress. Yet, he's not able to articulate consistently what that is or what this help looks like to him.

I've seen it described before as the "one magical thing": the thing they latch onto as what will heal the wound inside and make everything better. The problem is, this magical thing doesn't even exist. If you were to do everything he wanted, another "thing" would pop up. Why? Because the real problem (the wounded inner child, the trauma, whatever it is) still exists. It hasn't been healed. This leads to more flailing about, looking for what will fix it, desperately begging you or berating you as the case may be. And the merry-go-round keeps turning.

[pursuingJoy]

When he had calmed down but then expressed his feelings, I thought I could manage SET.

You tried! We have to feel our way through some of this. There's no guidebook. I'm still learning too.  

I don’t know how to get him to let it go.

You can't.

Am I lazy?  Should I be trying harder?  

Not at all. Like a trapeze artist flying through the air to catch the next rope, it will be more effective to stay centered and calm. Set boundaries that will protect you from becoming entangled, find support here and in therapy, do what makes you feel strong and independent.

One aspect I don’t love about setting the boundary and walking away is that I feel like his truth (which he is entitled to, I guess) is not mine (and when it’s how I feel, I think I know) and I feel that the “truth” inches further away from reality.

What am I doing wrong?  Am I looking at this the wrong way?

I hear you. It's not about right or wrong, but effectiveness.

My H has a pretty enmeshed relationship with his mom. When she hurts him, my instinct is to step in and help him by sharing truth about what I see and how to set boundaries. He then turns on me and attacks: I'm cold and heartless, I don't care about his mom, etc. By attacking, he lets me know he's not ready to hear it.

I finally accepted that it's not my job to convince him of anything. How does this approach sound? It made me panic at first. It feels counterintuitive.

I really feel supported and like things are starting to make more sense.

I'm glad you feel supported. This site helped me find needed clarity and solid ground again. I hope we can do that for you too.

[Harri]

Hi.   

When he had calmed down but then expressed his feelings, I thought I could manage SET.  And I thought it worked because the conversation ceased (not in person).  But then he reappeared with a new attack.

I think of the tools as helping me more than the other person.  Using SET gives me a chance to voice my own thoughts and feelings.  Over time, we may see a change in the behaviors of our pwBPD.  *Over time* is the important part here.  It took a long time for your relationship to get to where it is and it is going to take time and work to change things.  You can have an impact on the relationship by using the tools but that will not change or 'fix' your husband.  Stay steady in your boundaries and use of the tools and things will get easier for you especially as you work on detaching emotionally from his outbursts.   Very little, if anything about what he says is about you.  It is about him.  You can't fix that and like Ozzie said, you can't make him happy.  You can learn to detach, temper your own response and protect yourself.   I found that managing my own distress when changing my behaviors was actually harder for me that dealing with the responses from my pwBPD.  After so many years of functioning one way, to change things suddenly will push our own buttons. 

Using SET like you did is a great start.     Like any other tools, it takes practice but over time it can become a normal part of how you talk and interact with all people, not just your husband.  As you get better with one tool, you can add in others.  Continue with Don't JADE.  Be careful to not invalidate him.  Sometimes it is impossible to find something valid to validate, so focus on not invalidating. 

If you need to leave or remove yourself from the conversation, do so.  We have an article that is linked in the article Redeemed posted titled  How to escape, take a time out

Over time, you will get a feel for which tool works best for you and for certain situations.  Remember, there may be an increase in his dysfunctional coping behaviors but that is often temporary.  It is important for you to remain consistent.

I think you are doing well at trying to implement change.  It can be frustrating and it is very difficult.  We can support you and help focus you as you work on this.  We get it.  It takes time and practice to get the tools.  Also there is no one tool that works in all situations for all people.  Also, when your H is dysregulating, boundaries may be the best and only option.  Read the link I gave here and think about how you can apply the principles to his texts, your in person convos etc.

You've got this.

[UBPDHelp]

All such great advice!  A lot to digest for sure.

True it has been a LONG time to get here, so can’t expect immediate change. And thanks for the reminder that it’s not about me.

It’s funny...there is virtually nothing that triggers me.  I don’t offend easily, don’t get ruffled easily, don’t even get upset over other’s beliefs that don’t reflect my own (philosophy is everyone is entitled to their beliefs/rules/activities as long as NO ONE is being hurt — physically, emotionally, spiritually).

So, to argue over semantics and be told what I “meant” is frustrating. And, I try to be mindful of my words.

I’m going to read through all your replies and advice a few times and let it marinate.

Thank you again for showing that it’s a process and how to modify some of the tools for my needs AND what I can expect. I hope it does get easier and become clearer soon.

Thank you! Thank you!

[UBPDHelp]

Let me start with two things.  One, thank you all again, it really is helping me understand and also bringing some peace knowing I’m not alone. Second, I am not great at grabbing comments from your posts, but I’m going to try.

Ozzie —

I've seen it described before as the "one magical thing": the thing they latch onto as what will heal the wound inside and make everything better. The problem is, this magical thing doesn't even exist. If you were to do everything he wanted, another "thing" would pop up. Why? Because the real problem (the wounded inner child, the trauma, whatever it is) still exists. It hasn't been healed. This leads to more flailing about, looking for what will fix it, desperately begging you or berating you as the case may be. And the merry-go-round keeps turning.

So true!  I have thought for so long that I was doing this or that as I understood but it was always not quite “it”.  Super frustrating. Is it just a way to keep you off kilter or that nothing is ever really going to be “it” or a combo?

Can you help me understand how exactly you handle this?  Just letting him know you support him, but not trying to give the “thing”?

PursuingJoy —

It's not about right or wrong, but effectiveness.

My H has a pretty enmeshed relationship with his mom. When she hurts him, my instinct is to step in and help him by sharing truth about what I see and how to set boundaries. He then turns on me and attacks: I'm cold and heartless, I don't care about his mom, etc. By attacking, he lets me know he's not ready to hear it.

I finally accepted that it's not my job to convince him of anything. How does this approach sound? It made me panic at first. It feels counterintuitive.

I’ve seen the same thing, but I’m not sure how/what to do instead.  Do you mean do nothing/say nothing?

Interestingly, I blew this last thing up recently. We saw H’s family last week for a family birthday. He gets annoyed with them for different reasons.  MIL is challenging.  Not mean, but just challenging. When we get home he runs through the different annoyances, etc.  I always try to listen and hear him but offer a “do you think maybe he meant...?” to show an alternative interpretation just to show maybe it wasn’t mean/rude.  Sometimes he can see it, sometimes he gets mad (I knew nothing of BPD tools for soo long, so yea, definitely not helping). Anyway, in the talk about MIL we talked about some inconsiderate things she did and I agree they are inconsiderate but not worthy of getting bent out of shape on.  The conversation continues and he is still annoyed at her and I say, I understand and that it’s like the time she did (long story), but wasn’t coming from a mean place but still not right. Because this incident had to do with birthdays and he is triggered by birthdays, he got really upset and this is basically why we are in this new cycle.

So what should I have done instead?  (I’m having a hard time seeing the minefields BEFORE I walk into them and this would have been just a conversation with anyone else.  Then again, no one else would have been so upset at MIL so the conversation probably would have never happened!)

Harri —

*Over time* is the important part here.  It took a long time for your relationship to get to where it is and it is going to take time and work to change things.  You can have an impact on the relationship by using the tools but that will not change or 'fix' your husband.

So true!  So long, I don’t know if it can be undone at this point! 

Continue with Don't JADE.  Be careful to not invalidate him.  Sometimes it is impossible to find something valid to validate, so focus on not invalidating.

I really am trying!  Reasons = Excuses to him, so it is really hard. Did you empty the dishwasher yet? No, my mom called and needed my help so didn’t have a chance yet. You always have an excuse and defend yourself.

This is the reason, but not always an excuse.

BUT, this is a huge trigger. In fact, in my rage text yesterday he said about always defending my bf (mind you I have not defended him or even said his name in over 20 years).  But, because I have told him we have discussed the “situation” to the end so many times, there is nothing more to be gained and won’t discuss it any longer (I have done this for years and definitely before knowing anything about BPD, so probably wrong most of it), I believe he takes the refusal to discuss as defending it.

How do I handle that?  I simply won’t discuss because it has been a 1000 times and his reaction has damaged me in this discussion.

Bless you all if you actually have read this far!  As always, so welcome your thoughtful and immensely helpful insight.

[Ozzie101]

It's really challenging, UBPDHelp. I'm still struggling with a lot myself. But that's why we're here -- to help each other get through. And, sometimes, it's easier to spot problems or solutions in someone else's story than in your own!

So true!  I have thought for so long that I was doing this or that as I understood but it was always not quite “it”.  Super frustrating. Is it just a way to keep you off kilter or that nothing is ever really going to be “it” or a combo?

Can you help me understand how exactly you handle this?  Just letting him know you support him, but not trying to give the “thing”?

I don't know that it's really calculated or fully conscious. Could be there some manipulation involved? Possibly. Could it also just be a desperate, unconscious thing? Possibly. I'm not an expert so someone else may have more insight. But my reading has always been that it's less consciously manipulative -- that they genuinely believe that "it" will fix them. That's my reading with my H, though. Different people.

How do I handle it? Still working on that. I have my boundaries. There are things I will not do -- or that I will do -- regardless. I listen with empathy. I validate the valid. But, in my case, there hasn't been one overriding focus like with your H and his dysregulations are relatively short.

When we get home he runs through the different annoyances, etc.  I always try to listen and hear him but offer a “do you think maybe he meant...?” to show an alternative interpretation just to show maybe it wasn’t mean/rude... Anyway, in the talk about MIL we talked about some inconsiderate things she did and I agree they are inconsiderate but not worthy of getting bent out of shape on.  The conversation continues and he is still annoyed at her and I say, I understand and that it’s like the time she did (long story), but wasn’t coming from a mean place but still not right...

This sounds a LOT like a trap I've fallen into many times. If he's upset about something, already triggered, those bolded items of yours could feel invalidating. To him, in that moment, they are mean/rude. They are worthy of getting bent out of shape over.

What would happen if you say you understand or agree with the parts you agree with, then just leave the rest off? Not agreeing. Not disagreeing. That's the avoiding invalidation part.

Reasons = Excuses to him, so it is really hard. Did you empty the dishwasher yet? No, my mom called and needed my help so didn’t have a chance yet. You always have an excuse and defend yourself.

My H and I have had the excuse vs. explanation argument many times. Like yours, he hears a reason or explanation as an excuse. What would happen if you just responded "No." Does he really need a reason? If he asks for one, you can give it -- something simple like "I haven't had a chance yet." Does it matter why?

[UBPDHelp]

OMG Ozzie!

Yep, I do have a lot of work. The invalidating is pretty obvious now that you’ve pointed it out! I may need you on speed dial for my next conversation...haha!

I was really trying to show an alternative that wouldn’t feel so much like they were being mean to him, which I would appreciate if roles were reversed. I guess I need to stop thinking about what my reaction would be and switch my mindset to how his will.  Wow!

Part of my problem is that I’m more of a reflective, need time to think about it person and not so quick on my feet, so I think I am prone to make a lot of missteps when under attack.

Do you think if I make a mental note of the 3-4 known (biggest) triggers and set myself with a boundary on those (won’t discuss X), connect them to no JADEing and remember to find at least one validation I could have more success?  Open to suggestions.

And, you’re right. Probably doesn’t need to know why.  Wow, I hope I can just stick to the yes or no.  And love that the answer to why can be simply that I haven’t had time yet.

Why oh why do I feel the need to give a reason?

Thank you so much.

[UBPDHelp]

On a side note, he sent all the crazy texts yesterday.  Told me to read them and tell him I had.

We spoke and it was so so. No more texts and kind of thought we were done and he was heard etc.

We have some family distractions, nothing big, but just stuff coming up to take care of. We discuss and make plans and are set to go.

Then he looks at me and says he’s going to check my phone tomorrow to make sure I deleted the texts he sent but that he has another one written that he hasn’t sent yet but will tomorrow (today).

I said nothing. Partly because I was so dumbfounded and partly because I didn’t want to encourage. 

Any thoughts?  I don’t know if I’m actually going to get this message or if he’ll save it for the next time he’s off the rails.

Why would he say this? Do it now?

And, how do I respond if he does? Not replying seems to make him not feel he’s been heard, but replying seems to open up to spiraling on missteps with vocabulary, intent, etc. 

If I try to call him to discuss, he won’t answer. Interesting he’s doing this more at times when he’s not around.

Any ideas?

[Ozzie101]

I'm like you in a lot of ways. I, too, would want an explanation or for someone to point out "Hey, maybe they meant this." Not so for my H. As I've discovered, being with someone with BPD (or BPD traits) is like learning a new language. You have to stop thinking about what you would want or how you would react and think about how he is.

I'm also a reflective person who needs time and space -- which H doesn't like to give, particularly when he's dysregulating.

Breaking things down into smaller pieces is, I think, a very good idea. All this can be overwhelming and it may be good to work on a couple of things at a time.

I'll have to think about the phone thing. Honestly, it kind of raises some   for me. It sounds rather controlling. I hope someone with a bit more experience will chime in. My H doesn't have access to my phone and I've never let him look at it at all. Just as I don't look at his (unless he's driving and needs me to read a text to him). Maintaining some privacy like that is a boundary for me.

If you don't mind my asking, what did some of these texts say? I believe you've said texting is one of his big ways of communicating and attacking? Do you think he's aware of how the texts are and may be afraid you'll share them or use them against him?

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Ozzie,

Agree on the   with the phone. That said, he doesn’t do that or really follow up where I am or anything (I’m not very interesting) regularly.  It is only when he sends the crazy messages he wants to make sure I delete them. The first time I missed a weird picture he sent between messages and then accused me of keeping it on purpose to somehow memorialize. What?  I was like I wouldn’t have the picture if you hadn’t sent it to me. So that’s fun.

And, the request to delete is a combo I think. I think he knows it’s wrong (he still believes what he says and that is right, but the rage is “wrong”) and he says he would divorce me if the kids ever found out what a slut I am so if they see the message, then he would have to leave. Um, again, then maybe just don’t send the hateful message?

But, I will say there are subtle control things. It’s more of why would you go to the store now? Or, why would you be friends with her, she doesn’t care about you?

He tells me I have no friends and truthfully I have distanced myself because I don’t want to intertwine our “crazy” into outside world. I have a few friends I don’t do couples with,  but I don’t tell them about all of this b/c I don’t even know how they could understand and know they would think less of me for staying. Cowardly I suppose.

[UBPDHelp]

And as promised he sent the most scathing, ranting, crazy message. All caps in places and he has filled in so much crazy in the middle of stories. Like there are sprinkles or reality but 99.9% is made up narrative in his head.

He tells me because I’m such a slut he’s going to sleep with someone else and I can stay or leave, he doesn’t care. He’s told me I can leave a million times and tells me he’ll never come after me because we weren’t meant to be together.

BUT he wants me to read every word.  Do I respond?  Do I just say “I read every word and I heard you”.

Do I tell him I read it and not to ever send me a message like that again or speak to me like that again?

He doesn’t like ultimatums.

[pursuingJoy]

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I agree with you and Ozzie, between the demand to read and delete emails and the announcement that he plans to sleep with other people, there are some concerning  . Has he reached this point before, or is this a first for him?

[UBPDHelp]

He’s made threats about cheating when he’s mad. He’s justified the comments because since I slept with someone else (before we even met), he feels I cheated on him. It’s the act of losing my virginity not to him and I’ve taken everything from him. Not to make light of it, but is it really just the one time and that’s it, the only thing that matters?

I don’t think he’s cheated because he is very proud of being a good person. And, I don’t know when he’d have the time or money to do so. It’s all about how the world sees him as “better” or good.

It has been in the last couple of years when the rage texts started and then wanting me to delete and sometimes checking to make sure I did.

He’s under a lot of work stress which is what I think the empty space is right now.

I replied to his message that I had read his message (he told me read it, wasn’t sure if I should reply).  He liked my reply. Sat quiet for an hour and then raged that I didn’t come have sex with him last night. Is he serious?  You sent a 10,000 word essay why I’m a horrible person and vile and disgusting, but you want to sleep with me?  Confused.

Hope I answered your questions. I will answer anything because you all have this insight I seem to be missing. So far from normal that I don’t even know what that looks like anymore. 

Any thoughts on how to reply to this latest message?

[UBPDHelp]

Quick update.

I never replied to the last text questioning why didn’t want to be close last night —how in the world can he not see he wants me to do the things he called me an immoral slut for doing might not be in the cards?

Like if he was mad I forgot milk and ranted about that, then maybe? Still difficult.

It was hours and I just didn’t reply. He came home and went upstairs to change. I told him dinner was ready (just “usual day”) and he said he wasn’t hungry. I said ok and left. He’s now either sulking in the room or working on the next wave of raging rants.

I am just going to go about my day but I am stressed.

Does this seem okay? 

I have to set these boundaries (internally):

Will not discuss bf from 30 years ago

— We have discussed this enough and I will no longer do so.  And then walk away.

Will not respond to abusive rants

— When you are ready to have a civil conversation, we can discuss the real issue, until then I am leaving (other room at least).

Will not respond to personal attacks.
—I am not okay with being attacked so I am leaving.

If there is a better way to word these, please let me know. I want them to be my new mantras.

Thanks all!

[Harri]

It was hours and I just didn’t reply. He came home and went upstairs to change. I told him dinner was ready (just “usual day”) and he said he wasn’t hungry. I said ok and left. He’s now either sulking in the room or working on the next wave of raging rants.

I am just going to go about my day but I am stressed.

Does this seem okay?

Yes, I think you did well.  Let him deal with his own feelings while you work on handling your own stress.  A big part of your work here will be to manage your own emotional reactions while changing how you respond to him.  Our own stress and anxiety can pull us back into old patterns where we try to fix, rescue, appease, in an effort to keep others from dysregulating.  Yes, there are things we can do that can help prevent an escalation but not always.  Let him feel his own feelings.  Don't JADE, don't invalidate, listen with empathy if he does talk and if he is raging or berating you, take a time out.  

I have to set these boundaries (internally):
Will not discuss bf from 30 years ago
— We have discussed this enough and I will no longer do so.  And then walk away.

Have you tried removing yourself before?  If so, what was his response?

Generally when we walk away it is best to do so after setting a time.  Say I am going for a walk and will be back in 20 minutes.  Or I need to clear my head and will be back in 10 or whatever will work for you.  How you say that you are taking a break is as important as what you say.  

Will not respond to abusive rants
— When you are ready to have a civil conversation, we can discuss the real issue, until then I am leaving (other room at least).
Will not respond to personal attacks.
—I am not okay with being attacked so I am leaving.

I don't know if there are better ways of phrasing these for your situation.  You know him best and you need to word your phrases in your style.  Using the phrase 'civil conversation' would have resulted in an escalation for my situation.  It may work well for you.  

For me, with the people in my life, saying things like the following worked better:  "I know this is upsetting to you and I really wish I could help but I can't.  I can't listen to this again and I do not know how to respond to things I have answered before and things that are not true.  I feel like I am being attacked and I don't know what to do with that.  I don't like being attacked or talked to in this way.  I need a breather so I am going for a walk.  I'll be back in 30 minutes."

What do you think?  

Regarding the texts he sends, was this the first time you have not responded?  

Your mileage may vary.  There are times when I have just up and walked away and said things angrily.  It usually did not work well for me in terms of not escalating a situation.  Long term, it did nothing to better my relationships either.

[Turkish]

I don’t think he’s cheated because he is very proud of being a good person. And, I don’t know when he’d have the time or money to do so. It’s all about how the world sees him as “better” or good.

People with BPD feel core shame. Communication goes awry since their inner script says, "my feelings are worthless,  therefore I am worthless and unworthy of love." Coupled with a  inability to handle strong emotions (dysregulation), that's a recipe for conflict over... whatever! Hence, we stress the communication tools, as in
Lesson 3 at the top of the board.  

The food issues might be helped by being firm: "this is what we're having tonight, or the restaurant to which we are going," after the first choice. The equivocation used to drive my nuts with my ex until I realized that she felt better if I chose and stuck to it rather than (in my mind) not trying to control her by saying "you choose!" Sometimes she could, but more often not she'd get frustrated and want me to decide. The key was being soft, yet firm, like a business transaction. "Sure, let's get Pho, we all like that place." "What about Olive Garden?" "Maybe better off hours, or on a special occasion. You know how it gets crowded on a Friday night. Pho is good."

It has been in the last couple of years when the rage texts started and then wanting me to delete and sometimes checking to make sure I did.

After over two decades of marriage, people change, but what do you think changed to elicit this behavior after being married for so long?

Regarding what you said about his view of how the world sees him, that may seem like narcissism on the surface, but the behaviors you describe telegraph shame more than anything. N NPD like person wouldn't be worried about a bf from decades ago, at least externally, and he wouldn't be sulking in his room.  

Can you think of anything in general that changed a few years ago?

[Snowdog]

UBPD_HELP

Hi. I am a newbie in discovering the BPD world...so I have no advice...but I can offer caring support and commend your perseverance and efforts. From reviewing this thread I think you are doing fantastic. I tried the SET technique and others but I have failed. My BPD wears me down and eventually succeeds in triggering ME. So dont beat yourself up for not getting things right...there is obviously a learning curve here. OZZIE and the others are TERRIFIC in their advice...we are lucky to have this forum. Keep your chin up. Please remember your own worth! You are not those terrible things he says. I love the advice you have been given and I will implement those 'timeouts' as suggested. If I ever needed to step away she always said I was abandoning her...so simply giving a time frame of returning seems a simple fix. Silly me! I will use it if we get back together. She broke up with me 2 weeks ago and blocked me.   Oddly, it gives me space to learn more. Seems I never have that space when we're together. But I digress. I wish you the very best and look forward to positive developments for you and your new tools in the future!

[Snowdog]

Note: that emoji was suppose to be a sad face...there's nothing 'cute' here.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Harri,

Thank you for the guidance.

Your suggestions are helpful. It feels strange to me to “want to help” him understand that I am an immoral slut. Yes, I slept with my previous boyfriend a few times before I even knew H.  I’ve never cheated on him and it is difficult to be given a life sentence over this.

But, I think it is a matter of changing my mindset, so I’ll be giving this some more thought to see if I can find a place that helps him without damaging me further.

I have left the conversation/room before (more recently) but haven’t given a specific time I’ll return. The truth is, I don’t want to return to the conversation ever again so I don’t offer. There is absolutely nothing new to be learned, no stone left unturned and it has so damaged my psyche at this point, I simply can’t continue to discuss.

I’ve spent 15 years at least with this popping up at varying frequencies, with it being very close to his surface the last 5-6 years. I guess I’m feeling that if there’s no way he’ll stop and no way I have the want/strength to continue discussing, there is not much hope.

Your language in lieu of “civil conversation” is definitely better (at least from my perspective) and I will definitely give it a try. That said I have said civil conversation to him and it hasn’t seemed to further upset him, but if I were to say for instance, pickle, he might freak out. He makes unnatural connections, that no one else would make so it is difficult.

I have recently told him that it is hard to speak with him sometimes because some words mean something different to him than they do to me (and virtually everyone else) AND if there is a “misunderstanding” he doesn’t allow me the opportunity to describe what I mean (I’m sure now this is JADEing).  But I can’t create new pathways to his rages when discussing needing to get an oil change, so I don’t know how to not explain some things.

Re: the texts, I have not responded before but usually I will try to call him or speak to him in person because I feel like so much is lost in written messages.

I mean he sent a long rant and told me to confirm I read every word. I did — very simply restating that I had done as requested. His reply?  You are smug, proud of yourself and think you did nothing wrong.

I can’t compromise the last bit of me to make him feel better about an irrational, baseless and almost wholly fabricated delusion he has.

So the not replying has met with different results. Sometimes I get more ranting texts, sometimes ignored when he comes home, sometimes he’s moved on as if nothing happened.

Regardless of where I am in this journey (which I’m pretty sure is currently spinning in circles), I so very much appreciate that you’ve taken the time to listen, let alone help. Thank you.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Turkish,

Thank you for the reply and reminder link to the tools. It’s a lot of info and I’m still in the mixing them up mode!  I have a couple of follow up questions and request for feedback.

But, let me start with the food issue.  So, in reading this, I’m like, oh, the refusing to eat dinner doesn’t happen often so this isn’t really an issue.  But after reflecting on it, realize this is no different than the “what do you want to do/I don’t know, what do you want to do” scenario that plays out a million different ways. (I’m not much of an innuendo type of gal, I take things at face value and need a lot of time to digest things — I wonder if that’s a curse of an empath — always considering all sides?)

Anyway, it is frustrating because there are plenty of times I very distinctly say what I want to do, but then he gives other options and it feels like he’s saying he wants to do those (if he was okay with my choice, why give other options?) and ultimately everyone gets frustrated and he gets mad.

So I’m going to try to take the lead on decision making for everyday things and maybe boil down big decisions to two options and be ready to state which I believe is the best path.

Do you think that would work?

Now, if you don’t mind, some more help.

I totally misunderstood extinction bursts and thought the pwBPD was the driver. Okay, reset.

So ultimately for me to deal with this relationship, I would like to NEVER have any one of a million conversations about the old bf/immoral slut again.  I have been honest from the moment we met (maybe that was the mistake?), answered questions along the way, but as you aptly understood, it has been soo long.  There is zero to be gained from continuing the conversation.

So here is my attempt to extinction burst it trying to implement all the feedback everyone has given (trying might be the very key word, here).

H — any variation of immoral slut
Me — I know this is upsetting to you and I’d like to help, but I can’t. I can’t listen to this anymore and I don’t know how to respond to things I have answered before.  I am feeling attacked.  I don’t like being attacked or spoken to this way so I am going to take a breather for 30 minutes.”
 (Thanks Harri)

**side note, I have told him I won’t discuss before.  He’ll say “you’ll discuss anything I tell you” or “you’ll answer my questions”, etc.  I don’t know if it’s because I was angry when I said I wouldn’t discuss or if he’s simply trying to control.

So, repeat the above each and every time he brings this up?  Refuse to discuss, restate reply and remove myself.

And know that he’s going to get more aggressive (verbally) for a while.

Do I have that correct?

Admittedly there are some other behaviors to work on, mine included, but this is such a prevailing part of the relationship these days, that stopping this would probably be an 80-90% improvement.

Question though, assuming this isn’t the void filler anymore, won’t he just find something else?  Then repeat, but for how long?

So just info regarding your final questions. 

Looking back, he’s had some abandonment.  Parents divorced, little contact with his mom and some siblings.  He’s had a lot of work stress and kids leaving the nest stress.  I think he puts on an image that he has all the answers but doesn’t really so he gets panicky when big things happen he doesn’t know how to handle. He did have a big work disappointment I think around the increase. He doesn’t really talk about it (it was big) and even though not in his control, I know he felt it was a huge failure.

Re: narcissism, I don’t know.  No one knows he feels this way because no one knows I’m a slut because that would change their view of him. Shame I am trying to figure out. A long time ago he almost hinted about at the very least being inappropriately propositioned by an older man. He has never said anything but started to almost insinuate it but completely backed off. I never pursued it but have wondered sometimes if something happened.

He loves seeing guys be promiscuous and that’s fine, but if a girl behaves exactly the same, she is a slut.  Maybe he’s made at his old gf who dumped him for someone else. It always baffles me that he could take someone’s virginity,(1? 2? 3?) thereby making them of no value any longer. So bizarre to me.

Anyway, thank you again for listening, for your help and hopefully your extinction burst help!

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Snowdog,

Thank you for your reply and show of support.

I am sorry you are going through this as well.  It is indeed challenging. I need space to see things clearly, too and understand being caught up in the moment when such an obvious “fix” was right there (I’ll be back in 30). This NEVER occurred to me, but then being spewed hateful words at me, it never occurred to me he felt abandoned. Yikes!

And, truthfully, I go between I can’t do this anymore and if I could just fix this one thing, then everything would be better.

Looking back however, if I’d known this is the course my life would go, I don’t know that I would do it again. The kicker is I would never give up my kids. 

I am no expert, but I would say to find the blessing in the space you’ve been given and work on things for you. And be prepared with the tools if that’s the path you choose. But this is your time for you...make the most of it FOR you.

No worries about the cute emoji.  Sometimes the absurdity makes me laugh between the frustrations. A happy emoji is good for a lot of things...hope you want to be using it again soon.

Bless you for the support and in your journey.

[I Am Redeemed]

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