Ultimatum that I move or she will

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342500.30

One word, badly...

Small background catch up. Thursday night W comes downstairs wanting to discuss 'homework' i.e. the above goals. She's "not had time with work and being ill and... and... and... and... to do the work, and 'doesn't get it'." I rescue... obvs, and read out my work. I knew some of the items would be a bit prickly but ploughed on. She gets a bit flustered but pretty chilled all things considered. Discussion seems to end, she stands up and seems to look like she's preparing to head upstairs. She then turns and mentions a run of whatsaps between us the previous day re her demanding I send her £1,000 for among other things, a bond she has to pay her lawyer £600. She took offence again to me enquiring what the money was for. Anyway, long story short she accuses me of being financially abusive again saying that she'd suffered 23 years of 'this'.

So, brings us to Friday. I go in keen to learn, we talk about the questionnaires briefly, then T seems to indicate that it's obvious W has something to share. W then reads out a statement or should I say ultimatum that either I move out the family home within a month, or she will. Apparently the whole thing is having huge physically and mentally damaging effect on her (including loss of sense of her reality) and she can no longer cope with the constant fear or lack of privacy at home. Apparently she doesn't have any long term mental health issues, and any symptoms she's experiencing are utterly due to situational circumstances. Apparently she's identified places I can rent a 2 bed place for £1200-£1500 or she can rent a bigger place for £2500-£3000 per month.

I suspected this might happen, for a number of reasons really. Firstly the T pointed out there needs to be a boundary, be that physical or rules based. Secondly, I think W wants to derail the process as these sessions are likely to be pretty close to the bone and involve truth telling. Thirdly it's an opportunity to force control by Triangulating T into saying "Enabler, this is something you SHOULD do". I said I felt like I didn't have a choice here and felt like I had a gun to my head again. T pointed out that I do have choices and whatever choice I make I have to 'own' that choice and communicate my ownership of that choice to the children.

I'm massively conflicted between doing what might be generally seen as 'the right thing to do' i.e. move out, don't force the kids into an upheaval situation, or, call the BS card. The fact is, if my W wanted to be in separate homes, there is an clear path with which to achieve that... the divorce process which she has single handedly stalled for multiple years, and is currently stalling through quibbling about pensions valuations etc. If I were to move out, the inevitable result will be W stalling further, staying in the big comfi house and generally having her cake and eating it. I don't want to punish her, and I certainly don't want to punish the children... BUT... she's doing everything other than the thing she's actually supposed to be doing. More things were raised in the session, but ultimately there were centred around why is the divorce not happening, why hasn't it happened, stop lying to yourself and other people about why it hasn't happened.

My back to baseline thoughts are:
- Moving out stalls the divorce, or forces me to push a divorce I don't morally agree with.
- Whatever happens, children are to be told the truth, and I will own the choice I make.
- If either of us move out, W has to work out how this is going to be covered financially and what the implications are on D process.
- I should table other options which are more pro my choices (and reasonable) and less comfortable for her in her cake-eat it land... e.g. nesting, which logistically I have no idea how I would achieve.

W spends Sat evening at a friends house doing D work she should have done 2+yrs ago... but again... it's work that skirts around the edge of real decisions she needs to do.

Enabler

[Fian]

So what happens if you say, no, you are not moving out, and no, you will not facilitate her moving out either?

[Enabler]

In theory she moves out if I say I wont.

She has access to money and I have limited ability to stop her from accessing that money.

She has over estimated the cost of her moving to a new home and under estimated the cost and requirement for any new abode for me. She claims I just need a 2 bed property for weekend visitation...

[empath]

I would think that it would be important to come up with a parenting plan for the stability of the kids before either one of you move out. There also needs to be a written separation plan in place - including ways to meet financial obligations. *** After 2 years, I'm now in a situation where I need some documentation of both my current living situation and the financial support that uBPDh has been providing for the past couple of years.

FWIW, it is normal and expected for couples to communicate the purpose of large transfers of money.  Why would you need to pay for her lawyer?

[Notwendy]

I don't know how the laws work in your country.

However, if one spouse drains the accounts, I hope there is some way to account for that in the settlement.

I have heard stories where one spouse drained the accounts and there wasn't a fair distribution. I don't know the details of these divorces.

But before you give her a reply- I would be consulting a lawyer about what you can do to protect yourself from this.

If she does move out and take money to do that, I assume that is accounted for in the settlement? Please consult your lawyer about this.

I also think it would help for you to be clear with yourself on what is "being abusive/punitive" and what is the natural consequence of the divorce. I doubt there is so such thing as a discomfort free divorce, even to the spouse who wants it. She's had a situation where she's had a live in sitter and financial support and been allowed to pursue her affair. This may not be the case when the two of you live separately, but that doesn't mean she doesn't want it.

[Enabler]

Empath I agree on all fronts, it’s certainly not just as simple as upping stumps and walking out and anyone who’s told her so (I believe there are multiple flying monkeys in play here.

Re the lawyer payment, it was one of the reasons I asked her. I don’t want to be seen to be writing blank cheques for her legal costs.

Incidentally and I didn’t mention it before, I spent Friday at work searching a download of our WhatsApp chat from 2013 for the work money and copied every single instance to an email. There were 229 mentions. I printed it out and tried to hand it to her on Saturday evening... the reaction was equivalent to me flashing at her. She has no interest in evidence or truth or reason... none

[Enabler]

I agree Notwendy, I said as much in the T session. I pointed out that she struggled with stomach issues, anxiety, eating disorders and self harm well before I met her... and maybe she’s looking in the wrong place for the reason for these physical symptoms.

I adhere already to the co-parenting suggestions the T made, I am kind and courteous and MORE than accommodative to her ‘freedom’ and privacy. I’m under no delusion here. 

[empath]

I would think she would need proof of her ability to pay for a separate abode in order to make it happen.

I second the recommendation to check with your lawyer about the financial expectations of couples during the divorce process. 

[Notwendy]

I am not well informed about the process of divorce, but I think the finances are decided by the court- how is marital property divided, child support, alimony, etc. As I understand it- you and your wife both work so income is factored into this too.

Why not let the law decide? It's not "financial abuse" - it's the law. You have X amount, she has Y.

I know it isn't decided completely yet, but the lawyers can help you estimate.

At this point, you may need to move to separate accounts so she doesn't drain a joint one.

If she then has "Y" to spend, then she can see what is affordable with Y. I think she is free to decide to move or not. If your concern is financial, then focus on how the finances will be decided- and how to protect your share.

Once she has a sum of money that is "hers"- there isn't much control you have over what she does with it.

[formflier]

 I thought she had access to funds/savings that were completely independent of your earnings (or taken from "yours" in the past)?

I think the "dynamic" of you presenting her "evidence" at home is HARMING the situation far more than any good it may do. 

Save the evidence for T sessions or for mediation or your L.  (basically when a third party is there).

Both of you guys seem to be trying to control the other (make them move out).  What would it look like for you to have solid boundaries and let her do her thing and you do your thing?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Don't "call her on it" (the moving out thing).  Just stay put.  She has clearly stated the pathway, let her walk it...or not.

Enabler...do not get triggered by "abuse" word.  She will use it, let it slide off.

I stand by my "analysis" that "this" (what your wife is doing) isn't about getting a divorce, although a divorce may result.  I wish I had more insight into how you could "use" this.  At the moment I don't.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

FF, you are correct, she has full exclusive access to significant funds. I have in the past said 'is that a threat' when she threatened to use this money. On Thursday night she claimed that I had told her using these funds was tantamount to theft. I didn't push the 'evidence' and presented it more as a "here's the truth if you want to see it" kinda way. I agree that pushing truth is basically JADE and detrimental. We get back to a situation where truth telling/showing = abuse.

Interestingly, in her speech she mentions 'struggling to work out her reality' several times, whilst at the same time claiming to have tip top mental health. At times when I've struggled to understand which way was up, I'd hardly have claimed that my mental health was in great shape.

I'm currently planning for further attempts to push this agenda. What options are available? What do they look like, how will they likely play out.

Notwendy, this isn't massively about the money or financial protection, this is about her core belief that my evidenced reasonable behaviour was 'abusive' and unreasonable. Which is one of many pillars that prop up her continued desire to stay angry with me and not look at her own actions.

[Skip]

Apparently she's identified places I can rent a 2 bed place for £1200-£1500 or she can rent a bigger place for £2500-£3000 per month.

I think this is normal if she is taking the children and having 65% / 35% - I think that is her point. I can't offer any thoughts on reasonableness as I don't know the real estate market - but I'd look at this as a first offer to be negotiated.

I stand by my "analysis" that "this" (what your wife is doing) isn't about getting a divorce, although a divorce may result.

This keeps coming around and I don't understand what this means or how to use this information. Don't her actions really suggest that she is done and wants out but is overwhelmed by the process and the prospect of being a single mother? In divorce court they call it learned helplessness. And Enabler has stated many times that he psychologically understands her and does things to make it overwhelming. The whole, "tell the kids you are having an affair", is part of that.

I only say this because she is convincing therapists, friends, lawyers, that she is trapped in the marriage - if she does this in the court, they will fix this fast.

I would think that it would be important to come up with a parenting plan for the stability of the kids before either one of you move out. There also needs to be a written separation plan in place - including ways to meet financial obligations.

I agree. Stay with this therapist. Agree to work out the details of physical separation with the therapists help. Get a lawyer to advise you personally so that you make wise moves.  Get this thing done.

I know you feel its a challenge from God and I know you have hopes that its outside influences that are causing her to say and do things that are not in her heart - but 4 years with another man should say it all.

[Skip]

She has access to money and I have limited ability to stop her from accessing that money.

Likely she doesn't want to spend her money, she wants to spend community money. This is pretty common.

The fact that she is asking you for money rather than just writing a check to the lawyers says she fears what you will do.  She says she fear what you would do.

Is it possible that her fears are real to her. That she is afraid she will make a mistake and you will outsmart her in the divorce and she will pay dearly for it.

I think this is what people are hearing (in real life). As you have said, you two are not equals - you have a lot more power in the relationship.

Be careful... if this continues there are people that will intervene on her behalf and that will be tough.

[empath]

I have some experience with elderly folks who have memory problems (dementia, etc.), and it can be challenging to talk with them. Sometimes, typical people will try to get them to remember facts and bits of reality, but they don't remember. They get very distressed and agitated because they can't remember these things. Some of the ways to deal with it all as a people helper is to avoid it or distract and not to lie about reality.

A few months ago, my h told me that talking about the past and the "issues" was very distressing to him because he didn't have good memories of the past. I thought it was insightful and self-reflective for him to be able to tell me about it - at the same time, I knew that pretty much meant that any attempts to repair our relationship and have a common understanding were going to be deeply troubling to him (there is some deep shame and guilt for his actions and the effects they have had on our family relationships).

For the majority of people, we normally are able to incorporate correction and new understandings on a regular basis - depending on how big the change is, especially if there is an external reality associated with it.

People who have difficulty with "consensus reality" can find it distressing and threatening to be confronted with that reality.

The way through is to act consistently with the "consensus reality" without trying to change those who have difficulty with it.

[formflier]

  In divorce court they call it learned helplessness. 

Perhaps this is right..perhaps not.

It's taken her how many years to kinda put together some paperwork and got to a couple mediations? 

She may want and easy divorce with no responsibility, basically that she signs something and it's over.  Well, we all know life doesn't work that way.  At some level she likely knows it as well.

I also struggle to see how "my analysis" works to Enabler's favor or how he can use it. 

Basically, it appears to me some odd "divorce threat" and she has stumbled forward a few times and actually done a few things. 

To me, it seems her life gets harder post divorce, rather than easier. 

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I think Skip's point is that the marriage is over and to suggest roadblocks to slow down the inevitable divorce is to encourage magical thinking for Enabler, that there might be a chance to heal the marriage.

PwBPD often dwell in magical thinking. We as nons cannot afford to do likewise.

Yes, divorce is a total pain and I certainly understand proceeding at a snail's pace, having done so myself.

After so many years of being in a relationship with the OM, Enabler's wife has shown no signs of wanting to return to the marriage. Of course she stands to lose resources, both financially and supportive of the family structure. Perhaps it's her magical thinking that she can continue to keep the benefits without paying the price of finally ending the marriage.

[Enabler]

Guys I think there’s some great thoughts here. I think both FF can be right here. Skip, you are correct, my W perceived that she is helpless and I am powerful and will outsmart her and out power her. I am typically a couple of steps ahead of her because naturally she is in the now now now whereas I’m always looking down the road and worrying about the car 3 miles away. Which typically results in me planning avidly for that. You are also right that if she looks hard enough she will find people who will help her. She may well find those people to be lawyers and that may well be empowering. She may find they are the courts... although the problem with the latter 2 examples is to some extent there needs to be evidence that that power has been used or at the very least threatened. I know it’s just one example but there is CLEAR evidence of me trying to empower her time and time and time again one WhatsApp, my sister even said when she read it “one thing that struck me was how kind and pleasant you have been consistently over all this time” since 2013. FF, I also appreciate your stance that much of this is threat and like you say, she’s becoming aware that life after is hard rather than the utopia she imagined.

On small clarification skip, I have never pushed my wife to reveal the affair to kids. I have only asked her to own the choice to divorce.

Empath, that’s great insight. My W would very much like certain things to be white washed from everyone’s memory.

[Enabler]

The point about the rental cost is more that for her money she could rent a 5 bed place with huge grounds, whilst 2 bed really gives no scope for me to parent in school time. It forces me into Disney dad status which is something I am not aiming for and I have never suggested I am. It’s intended to be threatening and manipulative... move out or I will spend a truck load of our money.

[babyducks]

   
She may want and easy divorce with no responsibility, basically that she signs something and it's over. Well, we all know life doesn't work that way.  At some level she likely knows it as well.

No, it's not likely that she knows it as well.     Let's remember we are on a website for people who suffer with the traits of BPD.    and one of the traits of BPD is impaired executive function.    deficits in  planning, organization, cognitive flexibility, decision making, and inhibitory control.    because of that impaired executive function I believe you can assume deficits in developing an understanding of complex social constructs.   like the concept of shared financial responsibility.

My Ex is quite a bright woman with multiple talents in the arts, enormously creative, multi lingual etc.    However her ability to 'understand' numbers was almost non existent.    She struggled with the date quite often.    What we would consider simple math she couldn't do.    She could remember dialog from a play verbatim, but couldn't balance her checking account.      More subtly complex financial responsibilities,   i.e. 'who should pay for what',... was absolutely beyond her frame of reference.   She couldn't do it, because she couldn't understand it.   and the minute she became confused... she became overwhelmed and overloaded with conflicting internal dialog.

I think empath was on the right track with the comparison to dementia.    how much is the cognitive limitations of a serious mental illness or the traits of one?

I once attempted to purchase a property with my now Ex.    It was an eye opening experience, but not from the emotional perspective.    She barely had a rudimentary understanding of how real estate worked,  how payments would be structured, and when I said escrow she regressed to a frozen fearful barely functioning person.     For a person who believe that if she made a mistake she was a mistake the idea of 'escrow' was terrifying.    To Skip's point it looked like learned helplessness but it wasn't.    It was the total and complete lack of adult learning, adult maturing experiences, adult understanding of collective views developed and maintained by two (or more) people.

Over simplifying by a factor of about 1million, her brain did not work that way.

Interestingly, in her speech she mentions 'struggling to work out her reality' several times, whilst at the same time claiming to have tip top mental health.

Right.     I think she means something different when she says she is struggling to work out her reality.     Her reality is where to live,  how to proceed to get what she wants, how to struggle with the financial reality.    Doesn't have anything to do with her mental health.   I read struggling to work out her reality as struggling with the above mentioned executive functions,   how to plan,   how to organize,  how to problem solve.

'ducks

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Enabler-

Again, I am so very sorry that you’re going through this... I know you don’t want a divorce.  I didn’t either.  

Mine was a complete surprise / shock to me and happened because my exH became violent one night and threw me across the room.  There were a few months leading up to that night where it seemed I’d become “invisible” to him.  The circumstances don’t matter anymore.  There were 19 years before that night, and all in all, I was happy.  I found out later I was emotionally abused...but again, irrelevant.

My stance in your situation may not be popular here, but the hair is rising on my neck.  My exH was deceitful and had great capacity to lie.  We had separate accounts, for the most part.  The ones that were joint (where *I* put in most of the money), he withdrew to buy an expensive long-term care policy two months prior to the wife hurl.  I lost that money.  He forged my name on our income tax refund.  I lost that money.

And despite the violence, I paid ALL the legal costs of the divorce (marital settlement agreement).  Every penny.  And every penny for my move cross-country.  And I lost my house to him because I was so scared.  And I isolated myself for various reasons.  Bad for me.

I’m afraid for you; I really am.  I really believe, that with your W’s OM and whatever minions she may be building in her corner with “alternate facts” about what’s truly happening inside your home, you may not be in as powerful a position as you think.

Yes, it hurts... but as soon as you realize that this marriage is over, the better for you.  I’d be careful NOT to share your financial plan with a T.  That plan belongs with your lawyer and ONLY your L.  Everything shared with your T in joint counseling sessions with your W goes right back the OM and your W’s clan of backers who think Enabler is an “abuser”.  Clear eyes, my friend.  Clear eyes...

So here are my points.  1) Please protect your money.  Even the funds in joint accounts.  She is NOT above taking it and wiping you out.  This does not say you’ll be unfair when you split; it means you’ll protect the funds UNTIL the split... keep the funds safe.  My H would have cleaned me out.  A dear friend of mine was cleaned out by her H (and they had 3 kids).  It happens more often than you think.

2). Say to yourself...”yes, I’m sad.  Gotta get a divorce.  What next?  Attorney, that’s what.  And go.  Just go.  And take it from there.

All the very important things like how to tell your children, their happiness and how their respective beliefs in GOD and the like can be addressed later (and pretty soon).  

BUT!  It seems there’s a tipping point in the here and now.  Maybe?  When was the last time your W actually brought up an ultimatum of moving out and actual costs of doing this?  It seems there is a change afoot.  And I believe it would be good for you to steady yourself and get yourself into an attorney’s office.

I’m sorry.  I have always been sorry.  But Enabler, right now it cannot matter what she *wants*, or what you think she thinks.

Your thoughts?

Gemsforeyes

[Skip]

She may well find those people to be lawyers and that may well be empowering. She may find they are the courts... although the problem with the latter 2 examples is to some extent there needs to be evidence that that power has been used or at the very least threatened. I know it’s just one example but there is CLEAR evidence of me trying to empower her time...

Enabler, family court really doesn't work this way... this has been said many times.

If you two get along and are amicable, you could very well get 50%/50%. The court will think you both have the maturity to put the children above your squabbles.

If you stay on this high conflict track (both of you) that courts are going to go to the Disney Dad model for the sake of the kids.

Unfortunately for you (men), the more conflict, the more likely there will be a Disney Dad visitation plan. In other words, as your attorney argues how empowering and fair you are and she argues how she fears you - you lose.

We have talked many times about prepping yourself to get 50%/50% and you have blown it off and said you will end up with the Disney Dad schedule (I can pull the quotes). Things like you can't have your mom help - your won't have a girlfriend - work hours are prohibitive - etc. If this is the case, why are you upset that she is thinking "Disney Dad" schedule? She is saying what you have been saying.

If I remember, one of the side goals of going to this T was the hope that should would tell your wife you are not abusive. You have to let go, man. Get ahead of this thing before you get run over. Let the T help you two negotiate an end.

[empath]

As I understand the divorce process in England, once one spouse moves out, the clock starts ticking toward a "no-fault" divorce where the abuse/infidelity allegations are no longer relevant.

If a 50/50 parenting time arrangement is your goal, it would be in your best interests to take steps to make that a realistic goal.

Finances freak my h out, too. He has had several church leaders try to help him with that area of his life. It's overwhelming to him, and he's an impulsive spender. He also seems to have no clue as to what a reasonable household budget would be.

When he brought up the idea of divorce a few weeks ago, he said he was hoping that I would just say okay, lets do that...  and it would be a friendly process and cheap.

[Enabler]

We have talked many times about prepping yourself to get 50%/50% and you have blown it off and said you will end up with the Disney Dad schedule (I can pull the quotes). Things like you can't have your mom help - your won't have a girlfriend - work hours are prohibitive - etc. If this is the case, why are you upset that she is thinking "Disney Dad" schedule? She is saying what you have been saying.

If I remember, one of the side goals of going to this T was the hope that should would tell your wife you are not abusive. You have to let go, man. Get ahead of this thing before you get run over. Let the T help you two negotiate an end.

I have consistently communicated to my W that I would like as much access as possible, although highlighted there are logistical problems with that. Baring your comments (and others) in mind I have been trying to consider options (other than finding a new girlfriend). I have mentioned here plenty of times how a combination of changing in working from home policy and incorporating Mum (grit teeth) coming to stay for a night would significantly increase my ability to have the kids for longer periods. I wouldn't describe myself as nimble when it comes to changing direction and I totally accept your points about my resistance and rigidity in my thought process here.

That said, I don't believe that my W's comments about housing solutions are coming from the perspective of 65/35 or disney dad or needs or any of the above. It's coming from an attempt to appeal, poke, manipulate, whatever the word, to my desire not to waste money and find the most cost effective solution... the exact wording was "I have identified that for the girls and I to move will cost £2500-3000 per month. For you to move to a two-bed will be in the order of £1200-1500 per month." The only 2 properties I can 'identify' within 3 miles of our area in her price bracket are substantial 5 bedroom properties. My point is that she has intentionally skewed the financials and I believe this is for the purpose of it coming across as a 'threat'.

With regards to fear, I see W's fear of me as similar to that of my SIL's fear of slugs... spiders, rats, snakes, dogs... I get that, they can move quickly, be venomous and are sometimes tricky to get away from... but slugs... she even refuses to walk down a path which 'might' have slugs on it... "I'm terrified of my H whilst he's sitting there quietly watching a boxset on Netflix!". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RJUMm-hd0

Gems, I appreciate your concerns. We have completed a some submissions already as part of the financial mediation process meaning that most of the numbers are set in stone e.g. bank balances etc etc I do need to get a handle on how set in stone these numbers are now that we have done these submissions and how my W deciding unilaterally that she wants to spend a bunch of money that she has exclusive access to impacts any D settlement. i.e. are the assets considered at the point of submission or are the submissions just a chance to get a feel for the financial position and only on the date of execution are the 'real' numbers considered. I think she'd prefer to spend 'my' money even though all money is in effect communal assets because she wants to maintain the safety blanket of her own money.   

[Enabler]

Right.     I think she means something different when she says she is struggling to work out her reality.     Her reality is where to live,  how to proceed to get what she wants, how to struggle with the financial reality.    Doesn't have anything to do with her mental health.   I read struggling to work out her reality as struggling with the above mentioned executive functions,   how to plan,   how to organize,  how to problem solve.

Good point Ducks, let me give you context:

I am suffering from; repeated viruses, a low immune system, unexplained rashes, tiredness, stomach problems, a feeling of anxiety, never being able to relax or have any privacy in my home environment (which is meant to be a safe space), confusion about what reality is, fear of the future. It is becoming increasingly difficult for me to think straight , be clear about my truth, make informed decisions, complete necessary tasks relating to our divorce and function effectively at work. I need some peace, some personal space, to allow the fog to clear.

I need us to live separately to allow all of us to understand our reality, process our emotions and to begin to move forward in a healthy manner.

It strikes me that in that context there's a mixture of both.

Enabler

[formflier]

I think it's unlikely...very unlikely..that Enabler w will ever recant or stop doing the "Enabler is abusive" thing.  Whatever you can do to let go of that goal/issue will likely be helpful.

Even if the courts ever ruled that you were not abusive, my guess is that wouldn't change what comes out of her mouth. 


Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Totally fair point.

[Skip]

... the exact wording was "I have identified that for the girls and I to move will cost £2500-3000 per month. For you to move to a two-bed will be in the order of £1200-1500 per month." The only 2 properties I can 'identify' within 3 miles of our area in her price bracket are substantial 5 bedroom properties. My point is that she has intentionally skewed the financials and I believe this is for the purpose of it coming across as a 'threat'.

Why don't you take it at face value. She is ready for you two to split. Take her up on her proposition and counter her first offer - a couple of weeks ago you had a plan where she could stay in the house and you would move out.

Put that offer on the table along with your custody/visitation desires.

You two work with therapists, and that does work, so you get new therapists, that doesn't work. You work with mediators, that doesn't work. The story seem clear, she wants out but doesn't know how to do it and may be intimidated by losing your baby sitting services. She is emotionally and physically involved with another man.

You keep throwing obstacles - by your own admission - in the way - hoping that maybe she will change her mind.

Why not stop trying to read her mind - and just make the offer...

[formflier]

Why not stop trying to read her mind - and just make the offer...

Here is the thing.  This has been asked and answered many..many times.

Enabler doesn't want his marriage to end...that's the answer.  Enabler has indicated that his values prevent him from taking steps to end something he promised to steward for the rest of his life.

Seems like a significant reason to me and I'm not aware (correct me if I'm misinformed) that Enabler has changed his mind or his values.

I'm also not aware of Enabler's expressed values being contingent on someone else's values or actions.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

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