Intervention on my brother whose wife has bpd traits

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Nod Note:  This thread was split from another as the subject warrants it's own discussion.  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342919.0

Another wake-up call happened when two kind friends and a family member conducted an intervention on me.  That's a story for another day, but suffice to say, it got my attention and was a major factor in my decision process.

Lucky Jim, can you please tell me this story asap! It's my intention to perform an intervention on my brother whose wife has bpd traits (her disorder revealed itself a few years after marriage and post-child). The intervention details are still being worked and I can't put a date on it. I would be extremely interested to hear your intervention story (all the details) and what your two kind friends and family member did to you    

I want to know!

[Jareth89]

Nod Note:  This thread was split from another as the subject warrants it's own discussion.  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342919.0

Another wake-up call happened when two kind friends and a family member conducted an intervention on me.  That's a story for another day, but suffice to say, it got my attention and was a major factor in my decision process.

Lucky Jim, can you please tell me this story asap! It's my intention to perform an intervention on my brother whose wife has bpd traits (her disorder revealed itself a few years after marriage and post-child). The intervention details are still being worked and I can't put a date on it. I would be extremely interested to hear your intervention story (all the details) and what your two kind friends and family member did to you    

I want to know!

[Rev]

Lucky Jim, can you please tell me this story asap! It's my intention to perform an intervention on my brother whose wife has bpd traits (her disorder revealed itself a few years after marriage and post-child). The intervention details are still being worked and I can't put a date on it. I would be extremely interested to hear your intervention story (all the details) and what your two kind friends and family member did to you    

I want to know!

Yes please - for two reasons - one I wish I had a dime for every person who has told me "Rev, I would have said something, but..." and two, more and more men are coming into my sphere who are stuck in abusive relationships and finding it hard to even speak about what they suffer.  Hearing your story would open up some insights, I am sure.

Rev

[Jareth89]

... I wish I had a dime for every person who has told me "Rev, I would have said something, but..." ...more and more men are coming into my sphere who are stuck in abusive relationships and finding it hard to even speak about what they suffer.
Rev

Wilkinson:
'It seriously is like your brother is addicted to a drug, but one that the world wants to enable him in'

'For me, when I first shared with others that my wife was abusive, I had people who tried to downplay it. Some people tried to tell me it was my fault, that if I was a better husband or if I worked on the relationship the abuse would go away. Some people who wanted to ignore it or choose not to believe it were very close. One was a marriage therapist who was supposed to help and all he did was give my wife the validation she wanted...a minor problem that could be controlled if I was a better husband and put more effort into the relationship'

'Near the end I tried to reach out to friends and our pastor, but they treated me like I was causing the situation. That if I could just be a better husband, more supportive, and more loving, this behaviour of hers would disappear. One 'friend' suggested to me in front of my wife that as an act of trying to show my trustworthiness to my wife, every day when I came home from work, I should hand over my unlocked phone for her to go through and open my work laptop for her to look at my email'

'What ultimately helped me stand up for myself was a counsellor tell me that I was in an abusive relationship after things got real bad and when a coworker who has experienced abuse saw an exchange between me and my wife and said something. Please don't think of your brother as weak. This is a really tough thing. Abusers have a way of messing with your psyche. You allow yourself to be so vulnerable with your spouse and when they take advantage of you, it is horrible. You spend so much time in denial. If she is like my wife, she makes sure to surround him with people that think she's great. When I tried to tell others about the abuse finally, I had plenty of people tell me I was probably causing it...that I need to figure out how to be a better husband and not make her so mad. That I was probably not owning up to my end of things. My co-worker (who had an abusive husband) had people look down on her because her husband volunteered for a food distribution charity and provided well. So they treated her like she was ungrateful. It's a nasty, nasty situation.'

'It's been 3 weeks since I last saw my kids...a friend is trying to take care of my kids because she feels that I have abandoned them. Despite all the things i've done for my family, this friend believes my wife that i'm actually the abusive one and my wife is justified to call the authorities on me and keep my kids from me'

'I don't know how I would have made it had I not had someone I knew who recognised what was going on and was willing to believe me and support me.'

... every person who has told me "Rev, I would have said something, but..."

Moral cowardice.
...and this is not to trivialise abuse in anyway whatsoever, but if people are so cowardly and spineless about straightforward issues like this, who is left that has courage to fight the even bigger, daunting matters of life/humanity? We need strong people who will speak the truth no matter the cost. Does nobody have moral conviction? We are supposed to come together and help each other, otherwise we will be on the losing side...

[Rev]

Wilkinson:
'It seriously is like your brother is addicted to a drug, but one that the world wants to enable him in'

'For me, when I first shared with others that my wife was abusive, I had people who tried to downplay it. Some people tried to tell me it was my fault, that if I was a better husband or if I worked on the relationship the abuse would go away. Some people who wanted to ignore it or choose not to believe it were very close. One was a marriage therapist who was supposed to help and all he did was give my wife the validation she wanted...a minor problem that could be controlled if I was a better husband and put more effort into the relationship'

'Near the end I tried to reach out to friends and our pastor, but they treated me like I was causing the situation. That if I could just be a better husband, more supportive, and more loving, this behaviour of hers would disappear. One 'friend' suggested to me in front of my wife that as an act of trying to show my trustworthiness to my wife, every day when I came home from work, I should hand over my unlocked phone for her to go through and open my work laptop for her to look at my email'

'What ultimately helped me stand up for myself was a counsellor tell me that I was in an abusive relationship after things got real bad and when a coworker who has experienced abuse saw an exchange between me and my wife and said something. Please don't think of your brother as weak. This is a really tough thing. Abusers have a way of messing with your psyche. You allow yourself to be so vulnerable with your spouse and when they take advantage of you, it is horrible. You spend so much time in denial. If she is like my wife, she makes sure to surround him with people that think she's great. When I tried to tell others about the abuse finally, I had plenty of people tell me I was probably causing it...that I need to figure out how to be a better husband and not make her so mad. That I was probably not owning up to my end of things. My co-worker (who had an abusive husband) had people look down on her because her husband volunteered for a food distribution charity and provided well. So they treated her like she was ungrateful. It's a nasty, nasty situation.'

'It's been 3 weeks since I last saw my kids...a friend is trying to take care of my kids because she feels that I have abandoned them. Despite all the things i've done for my family, this friend believes my wife that i'm actually the abusive one and my wife is justified to call the authorities on me and keep my kids from me'

'I don't know how I would have made it had I not had someone I knew who recognised what was going on and was willing to believe me and support me.'

Moral cowardice.
...and this is not to trivialise abuse in anyway whatsoever, but if people are so cowardly and spineless about straightforward issues like this, who is left that has courage to fight the even bigger, daunting matters of life/humanity? We need strong people who will speak the truth no matter the cost. Does nobody have moral conviction? We are supposed to come together and help each other, otherwise we will be on the losing side...

ALL OF THIS!   Yes... all of it.   I am completing a master's thesis on this very dynamic and topic. In the United States, even the tools that the police have to try and identify abuse victims are geared towards spotting female victims - not male ones. In another study looking at attitudes towards Male victims, female victims and homosexual victims, straight male victims were judged the harshest (victim blaming).  And in other cases, attempts to sensitize people through public service announcements only caused more shame in men - precisely because men do not believe they will be believed.

At last count, there were only two or three shelters for men in the United States and none in Canada.

I am soo sorry you found yourself in this situation. One day - we will see abuse as a human issue and not a gender issue.

Courage my friend.  You have courage.

Rev

[Jareth89]

I am soo sorry you found yourself in this situation. One day - we will see abuse as a human issue and not a gender issue.

Good luck with your thesis, Rev. Just to clarify, everything in quotes is Wilkinson's own personal experience with his bpd wife...which is ongoing (divorce). He was advising me on the situation I have currently with my brother, since I can't see clearly inside the marriage. I would really like to hear from Lucky Jim about his intervention experience  - how it happened, how he felt about it and how it impacted his decision. What did his family/friends say to him during this intervention...it appears there are not many intervention stories here so this is an interesting topic.

[Cat Familiar]

Interventions can be unsuccessful if the individual isn’t ready to confront reality.

It’s difficult to know what keeps people in relationships that appear to outsiders as abusive. Often there is a secondary gain of companionship, security, comfort or complacency.

Victims can have an eroded sense of self esteem after years of poor treatment from their partner. They may feel unable or inadequate to make a major life change. Even individuals who want to leave an abuser might go back several times before they make that final break.

People leave when they are ready to do so.

[Jareth89]

Interventions can be unsuccessful if the individual isn’t ready to confront reality.

Agree with everything you said above, - the complicating factors, but interventions come from a position of optimism...why do you think Lucky Jim's friends/family intervened? Non-intervention assumes that the person must hit rock bottom, that there is no information he can be provided with that can influence his perspective. This has been proven not to be the case. The majority of these men had an epiphany when they realised the wife's behaviours were due to BPD. With the missing piece of the puzzle found, they were no longer able to be deceived and  could make positive life choices based on truth. Every case is individual, there are no rules as such. Anyway, the point of intervention in these cases is not to force a particular outcome (divorce). It is purely to deliver information which he is unaware of that may help the caretaker regain clarity and his sanity. He is enmeshed with a mentally ill woman after all.

There are some members on here who are trying to get the bpd information to their loved one safely:

After learning of BPD, I would like to make all of this BPD information/understanding/support available to him, but there is no way I can do it without escalating the conflict in the relationship. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=195420.0

How is it best to inform my son of BPD (w/NPD traits)? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=195420.0

There seems to be no human being to talk with about this. He's not just in the FOG, he's so far gone, but I read it only gets worse the longer he's with her. Has anyone escaped this prison without outside force? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=287059.0

Has your son ever considered therapy? The reason I ask is that sometimes a therapist (read: neutral third party) can educate him about BPD in a way that won't make him feel like he has to defend his wife. That might also be a way for him to work on his own self-esteem and his marriage. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=195420.0

...son and I have been through way too much for me to feel as though I am "losing" him to her illness! Counselor suggested I try to have a "heart to heart" with son, being careful with the timing. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=294703.0

The person here who needs to step up is your son as he has equal rights. as Resilliant pointed out he needs to be made aware that this is not normal and could benefit from reading "Stop Walking On Eggshells".  I am concerned that he has found himself in a high conflict and toxic relationship and feels powerless.  I was in an unhealthy marriage for many, many years and wish I had the knowledge to recognise it for what it was and the strength to get out of it, much sooner...https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341938

I have read Stop Walking on Eggshells myself and my husband has asked if we could send it to his place of employment. He is going to once again offer to pay for our son to talk with a counselor that has a great deal of BPD knowledge. We are praying for the best... https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341938

...and since he doesn't know what BPD is, he doesn't realize he is living in a horribly abusive home that is not normal! How can he ever figure it out? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=204596.0

A mother: I don't see how I can ever heal from the trauma?  It has indeed been a traumatic experience. I do like being in therapy.  My T initially saved my life when I was so down and couldn't even deal with life at all.  He put me on Lexapro, but it made me feel like a zombie, so he has me cut one pill into fourths and I take 1/4 every night.  That is much better.  Do you take any medications? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=204596.0

and so it goes on...   Maybe someone needs to go to the hierarchy if we want clinical psychologists to be able to productively assist families in these scenarios.

I'm glad to hear any success stories in this world.  There is so much sadness and despair.

True!  Hope recognises that a greater good exists, that we have the capacity to acquire it and the higher good is worth the sacrifice.

[once removed]

Moral cowardice.
If people are so cowardly and spineless about straightforward issues like this...
Does nobody have moral conviction?

is it possible that rather than a lack of moral conviction or spine in others, it may indicate that what you advocate is a pretty extreme approach, and possibly more harmful than helpful?

[Notwendy]

In many of these relationships, there are children involved. Stepping in to possibly break up a family has serious consequences. Divorce results in financial and custody issues as well as having children relocate between two homes. While it may result in one spouse not being subjected to as much of the BPD spouses' behavior, the two of them are still in a relationship when it comes to the children. If the BPD spouse has custody ( as is often the case as some types of abuse are hard to proove in court) then the children will still be subjected to the BPD parent's behavior -without the benefit of having the other parent there.

Some of these relationships do end in divorce, but the parents still have the responsibility to keep the children as safe as possible. Sometimes divorce is the better way, but it isn't a simple decision.

Consider that your brother may also be facing a moral dilemma. He has a child to protect. Maybe he's made a moral choice as well according to his moral convictions.

Maybe  family and friends see the situation as being complex, and are also considering not breaking up a family.

My father's family assisted in other ways. They opened their homes to us to stay with them during school breaks. They gave us kids some time away from BPD mom, love and parenting. This had a tremendous impact on our well being. We are still close to them today. Would you call them lacking in moral conviction or loving and generous to us in a difficult situation? I would choose the latter.

[Jareth89]

is it possible that rather than a lack of moral conviction or spine in others, it may indicate that what you advocate is a pretty extreme approach, and possibly more harmful than helpful?

In terms of what Rev said about his friends, I think he was intimating they had a lack of moral conviction...that their hesitancy was not because they understood the delicate dynamics involved. I didn't see a case where there was risk involved in a neutral 3rd party (a friend, coworker etc) informing someone they are in an abusive relationship or that the wife has BPD. Involving a clinical psychologist isn't extreme imo...it creates maximum security. The risk is always when a family member undertakes this role alone...there was a therapist who tried to tell his son that he was in a BPD relationship and he ignored his own expert father. So there is a reason for this.

It seems that if a neutral 3rd party delivers, then the enabler is not compelled to share this info with his wife. If it comes from a family member...he can't stop himself from sharing the conversation (even if he knows it's true). Bizarre loss of judgement and I don't understand why the enabler loses sense over the appropriateness of information sharing, but Four Winds brother did this.

In many of these relationships, there are children involved. Stepping in to possibly break up a family has serious consequences.

It's only to provide an important piece of the puzzle (not known to him) that allows him to regain his sanity so he can think clearly, understand the situation (tools to communicate with wife) and not be so easily manipulated. There is security in truth. In my own case I'm looking to help my brother first. Divorce is not on the cards and I'm not advocating for it.

Some of these relationships do end in divorce, but the parents still have the responsibility to keep the children as safe as possible.

Agree. I'm not an expert in divorce cases, but in my travels I read one account where the child (now adult) initially felt hostile towards the father (felt abandoned, left with unstable bpdmother) but then became very grateful for being able to experience moments of peaceful, strengthening normality when he visited and spent time alone with the father. Sad situations nonetheless.

Maybe family and friends see the situation as being complex, and are also considering not breaking up a family

Agree, but the risk of breaking up the broader family only exists if the enabler shares 'the talk' with his wife. Otherwise, the information is of undisputed benefit.

Would you call them lacking in moral conviction or loving and generous to us in a difficult situation?

Absolutely not...intervening carries larger risk because they are family members, so their hesitancy was justified, if they had not considered involving a professional.  Even so, in your case any benefit was probably outweighed by risk due to a)the severity of your mum b)the unreceptive, heavily enmeshed nature of your father. I'm only interested in Lucky Jim's intervention experience and how he felt about this. What his friends/family did wasn't controversial in terms of information sharing.

[Jareth89]

is it possible that rather than a lack of moral conviction or spine in others, it may indicate that what you advocate is a pretty extreme approach, and possibly more harmful than helpful?

I'm trying to be very careful not to inflame the situation...it is like sidestepping landmines dealing with both of their behaviours. Is it really an extreme approach? Only a professional can encourage my brother to talk about his wife's behaviours, give him the necessary emotional support and advise him on his wife's condition. I only get one shot at this and for the information to be given securely it needs to be delivered 'in one go' and without his prior knowledge/consent due to the enmeshment and the absent-minded tendencies that go with it.

[Four Winds]

I agree with Notwendy's important point raised in this discussion...
("In many of these relationships, there are children involved. Stepping in to possibly break up a family has serious consequences. Divorce results in financial and custody issues as well as having children relocate between two homes. While it may result in one spouse not being subjected to as much of the BPD spouses' behavior, the two of them are still in a relationship when it comes to the children")
My brother told me on quite a few occasions that he "has to keep his children in a safe place" which I interpreted to be that he could not stand up to his wife as the consequences were too dire for the ongoing safety of his children. 

[Four Winds]

I'm trying to be very careful not to inflame the situation...it is like sidestepping landmines dealing with both of their behaviours. Is it really an extreme approach? Only a professional can encourage my brother to talk about his wife's behaviours, give him the necessary emotional support and advise him on his wife's condition. I only get one shot at this and for the information to be given securely it needs to be delivered 'in one go' and without his prior knowledge/consent due to the enmeshment and the absent-minded tendencies that go with it.

Jareth89 you refer to this professional (the 'uninvolved third person') who you intend to engage to talk to your brother about his situation.  However, as it is you that will have instigated this professional to talk to your brother, there is the potential that he might not react well to the situation.  Its an impossible dilemma, do nothing and still retain contact (but helplessly watch him suffer), or stage an intervention (which in my view is an extreme approach) and run the very real risk of losing him altogether.

[Notwendy]

Is there even a professional who would consider such a thing? Saying these things to a client who they have not met, have not seen the wife? Taking one family member's word for it? I can see all kinds of potential issues from this action.

First, it would involve making a "diagnosis" about someone they haven't met or spoken to. That seems like a breech of professionalism right there. It also means discussing something with a person they haven't met, and don't have any consent to meet with or treat.

I have heard of professionals making interventions where a family member is in some kind of cult, but I think in those cases, it's a minor, like a teen ager. I have also heard of it being done with teens who are engaging in dangerous behaviors such as drugs. In these cases, the person of concern is a minor. I have heard of it done with adults with serious issues in a family therapy context where there are consents from all involved.

But I haven't heard of any professional agreeing to such a thing on the basis of heresay from one family member.

[once removed]

I'm trying to be very careful not to inflame the situation...
Is it really an extreme approach?

lets put it this way.

you came to a support group to get help in your relationship with your brother.

youve invested a great deal of time and research in your plan to intervene in your brothers marriage.

members have invested a lot of time in hearing you, learning more, supporting you, and also discouraging this plan (pretty much unanimously), telling you why, sharing their experiences, naming the potential pitfalls, and suggesting a slew of alternative approaches.

youve rejected that advice at every turn, and now youre calling those people spineless moral cowards. you also believe you have more wisdom about your brother and his relationship than he does.

this puts you in an alienated and isolated position, and youre intent on amping it up.

i think that ought to tell you the likelihood of success as you see it, when it comes to your plan.

[Jareth89]

However, as it is you that will have instigated this professional to talk to your brother, there is the potential that he might not react well to the situation.  Its an impossible dilemma, do nothing and still retain contact (but helplessly watch him suffer), or stage an intervention (which in my view is an extreme approach) and run the very real risk of losing him altogether.

Fourwinds you are right, it absolutely is an impossible dilemma. What I don't understand is why he keeps all this a secret? It's probably because he doesn't want to face reality! Tell me what is manly about that, why can't he sort himself out? Does he think I can't see it? Why deny something that is so obvious, because if he acknowledges then he has to confront it? How tragic. He could easily reach out to me and talk about the strange behaviours, what he is being forced to do...instead of acting in an unethical manner towards me for the sake of pleasing his wife. If he had told me about his circumstances, I wouldn't have suffered so much wondering why he was treating me badly...I could have helped. I never encountered such denial. He may not react well in any situation I try to set up, but I follow my intuition and analysis of this case. As you pointed out, none of the options are without risk, so you pick your poison. If I aim for the most positive outcome, I should take all precautions to minimise risk...that may look like extreme measures to some. Anyway...if you remember I told him he was being manipulated...so he knows that I know.

Is there even a professional who would consider such a thing? Saying these things to a client who they have not met, have not seen the wife? Taking one family member's word for it?

No, there are no clinical psychologists (I have seen many, some more spirited than others) who will see my brother without his consent. But this is an impossible situation for them to ask for, it will never happen and it's too dangerous to try to ask my brother. The point is not to diagnose the wife, it's to get my brother to identify the behaviours (I can assist) with a clinical psych...where it will become clear that she has bpd traits. Every psych I spoke to said 'Your brother needs to admit there is a problem'.

A family member can diagnose a PD in a millisecond...it's that obvious. It does rely on the assumption that the family member has made accurate behavioural observations. I have it all dated and documented - it was a lot of work. In principle, does it matter if the psych attends on the premise that a PD has been correctly identified? If my brother attends a psych's office will he have to assume my brother has correctly identified his wife's behaviours? Psych's will pass judgement on behaviours described to them by a spouse. I will have gone over the case with him beforehand. The psych can use his own judgement during the intervention. If my brother is unreceptive, then at least I tried. But the clinical psych will be acting no differently than if my brother saw him in his office, the exception being it is without his consent. The psych would be there as a support which I think would encourage my brother to acknowledge there is a problem. He would assist in identifying the behaviours associated with bpd and compassionately help him to understand the rationale behind the behaviours, which will be surprising to him. If my brother is unreceptive, then at least I tried. I think with a professional there, it will be hard for him to maintain denial. It is no different from intervening on an addict.

Here is one of the responses I got:

'I have been looking into your enquiry, and apologies for the delay. I wanted to try as many options as possible before I came back to you. Unfortunately, the general consensus is that all of the clinicians would feel somewhat uncomfortable to advise around this issue at all, when the condition is undiagnosed. The advice has been that you'll first have to speak with the person (brother) themselves about seeking their own support, and then access services together at that point'

This response is unsurprising since there are no tools clinical psychs can currently use to assist families in situations like this. I have one clinical psychologist who offers encouragement to me about this case.

Love is the master plan  

[Notwendy]

So basically, this intervention is hypothetical, unless your brother is motivated to seek out a clinician as well.

If a trained clinician is reluctant to tell your brother his wife has BPD behaviors, then how are untrained family members expected to do this effectively- especially if the spouse is unreceptive to hearing it? Yes, it might be more effective if a professional did it, but there isn't one who would.

Yes, it is similar to an intervention with an addict, but unless the addict is motivated to change, it's not likely to be effective.

I agree that a family member can study BPD and put the pieces together to make a good case that another family member has BPD. However, I doubt that a clinician would take action based on heresay. They would want to assess the situation themselves. Imagine someone going to the doctor saying their spouse has strep throat. They may be correct- the spouse has a sore throat and a fever- but do you think the doctor would hand them a prescription without seeing the person with the sore throat? Neither would a mental health clinician be likely to take action for BPD without assessing the situation themselves.

Using my mother as an example, she has been to mental health clinicians and has convinced them that we have the problem, not her. It's her word against ours. As severe as she is, she holds it together in public quite well when she wants to- at least for a few hours. We kids have tried to speak to others about her. They don't believe us and my father would not admit to any of it.

Although she has had years of mental health involvement, it's only been recently that her diagnosis has been validated. She now has home health care and a social worker involved as she is elderly and on her own. When professional staff has been around her for hours at a time, they have seen her behaviors.

Considering how difficult it is for a professional to make an official diagnosis, and how complicated these family situations are- and of professionals are reluctant to intervene with your brother without him seeking out their help himself, if you still want to do this, it seems that you would need to do this yourself.

[Harri]

A family member can diagnose a PD in a millisecond...it's that obvious.

How did you come to this conclusion?

[Jareth89]

members have invested a lot of time in hearing you, learning more, supporting you, and also discouraging this plan (pretty much unanimously), telling you why, sharing their experiences, naming the potential pitfalls, and suggesting a slew of alternative approaches. you've rejected that advice at every turn

I didn't reject any advice. If you go all the way back to my first posts, you will see that I attentively listened to and was grateful for all the advice that came my way. If I thought I could find a better solution for my individual case (don't we all?), I outlined my thoughts and rationale openly every time for critique. There were many productive discussions which helped me to move towards a decision. In sequence, I have pulled discussion from the main intervention thread over in the in-laws section: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340085.0

Harri
I think following ones gut is important as well.  I also think it is important to take each situation individually.  For some, intervention is the right thing and for others, not so much.  I know you have heard from plenty of people regarding the cons as you have posed. I understand you have decided to talk with your brother about his wife.  That is fine especially as you seem aware that things may go well or they may not.  Either way, it sounds like you are prepared for the consequences.

Notwendy
Jareth, I think you have made your point clear- that you think it is the right thing to do for your brother. I know you have heard other opinions, but you have been steadfast in your point and it seems clear to me that this is what you want to do. None of us are experts in someone else's situation. The best we can do is relate our own situations. You have presented yours. Each of us can decide what steps to take in our own situation.

I too have asked you what your plan is for how to accomplish your goals. You don't need to convince anyone here that this is what you feel is best for you to do. You would only need to know it yourself and I think you do. I wish you the best in this endeavor and would be interested in hearing how it goes.

Notwendy
Jareth, I have read these threads and also participated. There seems to be a lot of back and forth between members sharing their experiences and you confirming your decision. At this point, I think it's very clear that you wish to proceed. When will this happen?

Notwendy
I have shared my concern for my father who was in an abusive relationship and that I did intervene. You are completely free to make this choice to do this too. If you do a better job than I did at this, I would be interested in hearing about it. What is the best next step for you now?

Notwendy
I hope you will continue to let us know how this goes. Yes, these issues are complicated and people outside the family may not have witnessed them.

Skip
I agree with Notwendy. You received some advice on the downside of what you are suggesting - but it is your choice - we're past that  - and we are here to support you in being proactive.. What is happening in his home? Do you have a sense of what he would tell us are his most concerning struggles with his wife? Generally the best way to intervene on anything is to first understand what the person already sees as a problem and one they would like to solve.

Notwendy
I think your plan is caring- and that you wish for both your brother and his wife to have help with this issue. I think the best you can do, and anyone else can do- is to offer your plan to them in a caring way. But also keep in mind that as legal adults- they have the autonomy to choose to accept it or to decline it.

Skip
Have you considered having the psychologist talk to him by phone? It's a complicated topic and hard to grasp.

Harri
What sort of professional will you be working with?  I am curious and interested to hear how things turn out for you.  Will this be happening soon?

Notwendy
Please post how it goes. I am interested in hearing about it.

Skip
Did you get a chance to look at "High Conflict Couple"?
Jareth  Book came today, it looks very interesting and will be of great help. Thanks for the suggestion, I wouldn't have found it myself.

members have invested a lot of time in hearing you...and now you're calling those people spineless moral cowards.

With all due respect, you misunderstood. When I asked to hear Lucky Jim's account of his intervention experience by his friends/family at the start of this thread, Rev agreed saying 'Yes please - for two reasons - one I wish I had a dime for every person who has told me "Rev, I would have said something, but..."   I responded as follows:

one I wish I had a dime for every person who has told me "Rev, I would have said something, but..."

Moral cowardice...and this is not to trivialise abuse in anyway whatsoever, but if people are so cowardly and spineless about straightforward issues like this

Rev was unhappy that his friends said nothing to him. I agreed and said it was cowardly and spineless - in my opinion. Lucky Jim's friends/family intervened with success. I did not make any comments about members.

i think that ought to tell you the likelihood of success as you see it, when it comes to your plan.

I have been honest with my thoughts throughout. I was asked to update on progress, which I have done painstakingly. I am not afraid to be judged by my results...whatever they may be. Everyone has a journey here, mine was unchosen. I'm trying to make the best of it and updating on progress via the other thread. If I find a clinical psychologist (i'm going to the hierarchy), I hope you will be happy for me. The purpose of this thread was actually to hear from LuckyJim but it morphed into a debate about the technicality of intervening...not that the discussion isn't of value.

 

[AskingWhy]

The hardest thing in having a family member with an issue (addiction, PD, enmeshment, etc.) is to understand that sometimes you don't have any control over the problem.  Sometimes you have to stand back.  This can be very hard when you love someone.

Then again, if there is any chance of suicide or serious abuse, the law may have to step in.  When my nephew was an infant, his M (a drug addict and alcoholic) was neglecting him.  As a tiny baby, he was losing weight because his own mother was too into her own world of addiction to nurse him or bottle feed him, and when he was older, starting him on solid food.  She was so drunk one time she dropped a lit cigarette onto her own baby's hand!  I ended up calling child social services, and a social worker visited her and my brother.  My B's eyes tore into me with hatred, but a child's life was at stake.   My B's weak reply to the social worker was, "Well, the M told me she was feeding the baby!"

Our only options are to see all aspects of what is happening in the family and then make the legal decisions, expecting consequences of doing so.

[Harri]

Jareth, we will support you regardless of the outcome of your decision.  I do hope that this works out in your favor.  As you know, I have doubts that it will.   I am concerned about you should this fail and your relationship with your brother and parents are damaged as a result.  That said, I hope you prove me wrong.   That said (!), it is not a method we would recommend.  You know that though.

Rev was unhappy that his friends said nothing to him. I agreed and said it was cowardly and spineless - in my opinion. Lucky Jim's friends/family intervened with success. I did not make any comments about members.

It did not come across as your opinion but rather a conclusion you have reached about many of the members here.  It is not the first time you have said similar on the boards.   Consider your audience.  

Agree, but the risk of breaking up the broader family only exists if the enabler shares 'the talk' with his wife. Otherwise, the information is of undisputed benefit.

Not quite.  It may be recognized as beneficial (by the non) only well after the fact, in hindsight.  Well after the non has reached their own limit and have left or in some way resolved the situation on their own.  For every post you want to quote here about people who want to tell their son or brother about BPD, you will find just as many, if not more, that say a friend or family member did say something but they ignored it... for a lot of reasons, but usually because the person did not want or was not ready to hear it.

If I find a clinical psychologist (i'm going to the hierarchy), I hope you will be happy for me.

What do you mean when you say hierarchy?

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Jarreth-

I’m very sorry you find yourself in a position where you feel the need to “rescue” your twin brother from his potentially uBPDw; or at least provide information to him (and her) regarding her mental health.  Or lack thereof.

I read your threads on the other board.  I know from experience the deep sadness and helplessness of witnessing a loved one suffer in a dysfunctional relationship.  And I  also know from experience, the pain and paralysis of living within an abusive marriage / relationship. 

As you admit, you’re unsure of how your brother’s day to day relationship is with his wife.  None of us can see inside another’s marriage.  And it seems your B has not explicitly voiced concerns to you about his wife or his marriage.  I never told a soul about what I was enduring during my marriage ... because I didn’t recognize it as abuse.  Until the night he became violent and that’s the night my marriage ended.

But this isn’t about that.  This is about my stepson.  He’s 33 and was 5 when I came into his life.  I was very very close to him and love him dearly.  He began dating a woman with strong BPD traits 12+ years ago, while still in college, and married her almost 5 years ago.  My son’s bio-mom is a professional psyche person and she KNEW what this girl suffered from.  The mother gave my s-son the book SWOE when he was first DATING this girl.  I knew nothing about PD’s, this book, or conversations the bio-mom had with her son.  Sadly, The bio-mom just told me this info in the last year.

I had the “opportunity” or bad fortune to hear disturbing arguments between my son and the girl.  After she’d leave our home, he’d seek my advice on what to do about her jealousy, threats, humiliation, etc.  Disturbing stuff.  There was so much that happened.  When there were difficult topics to tackle, the bio-mom would ask ME to speak with the kids.  And I did.  I now know why I was put in that position.

Despite all this, I had a great relationship with the girl and maintained a close relationship with my s-son.  Until they got married.  And THEN, my son was apparently no longer permitted to contact me without her in the room.  Any email or text I’d send him would be answered by her.  So in almost 5 years, I have spoken privately with my son exactly one time.

The first baby was born 4 months after the wedding, as the arm implant birth control magically must have fallen out.  Not kidding.  My son was surprised by the second baby, too.  And probably by the third.

The girl has isolated my son from EVERYONE, not just me.  For various and well thought out reasons, I made the painful decision to opt out of this relationship, although they don’t know this.  I no longer live near them, and when I was last out there, her level of treatment was dismissive and pitiful.  Her written communication is worse.  So no...just no. 

Jareth-  the reason for all of these words is to try and explain that an “intervention” , or providing handouts, unsolicited advice - unless you have witnessed first hand actual indisputable  abuse, will fall on deaf and resentful ears.  My son’s wife absolutely LOATHES his mother.  She still likes me because I never tried to break them up.

Your SIL still comes to visit.  You have an opportunity to *build* a better and more trusting relationship with her, and in turn she will trust you to spend more time with your B. 

Perhaps for a time, turn your focus to yourself, your healing, your friendships, hobbies and social life opportunities.  This way you can bring new “unthreatening” topics into conversations with SIL, her parents and your B.

I know this is stressful, but maybe, just maybe, there IS an alternative while you still have a relationship and there’s been no real *Splitting*.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Notwendy]

Jareth, I understand the kind of frustration and pain you are feeling at seeing what your brother is going through. The dynamics between my parents were hard to witness, and I witnessed them for decades right up to the day my father passed away. I also have been the recipient of her verbal and emotional abuse.

I think the issue I have and perhaps other posters have too is the assumption that if someone is unable or unwilling to intervene, they lack in moral fortitude. I would be cautious to not jump to that conclusion. It's a harsh judgment on people who are in a similar position as you, facing a complicated situation.

I also think the view of any relationship or family from the outside isn't completely accurate. You have made your opinion about your brother and his wife from an outside observer. While my parents' relationship was difficult, it was not all bad. They had a special connection between them. I may not have understood it, but it isn't my business to. They didn't raise perfect children, but they did raise nice ones, productive ones who are contributing to the world in their own way. They passed on good qualities to us too. There are no perfect people and all marriages have their challenges along with the good times. It's hard to imagine that your brother chose his situation, but he did and he continues to. He has a child with this woman, and he surely loves that child. While you fear he is brainwashed, he also has a responsibility.

He also has the ability to look things up on the internet and read. You might be wrong about your assumption that he needs to be told about BPD. My father didn't indicate that he knew either, but he was an educated man, with access to a computer and likely read about it himself.

The choice to conduct an intervention with your brother is entirely up to you. All we have done is to share the perspective that the situation may be more than you know, no matter how close you are. ou aren't in his home 24/7 or in their bedroom, and the whole of anyone's marriage can't possibly be known from the outside. If a friend or family member is reluctant to intervene, it may not be a question of their morality.

[Rev]

I think the issue I have and perhaps other posters have too is the assumption that if someone is unable or unwilling to intervene, they lack in moral fortitude. I would be cautious to not jump to that conclusion. It's a harsh judgment on people who are in a similar position as you, facing a complicated situation.


The choice to conduct an intervention with your brother is entirely up to you. All we have done is to share the perspective that the situation may be more than you know, no matter how close you are. ou aren't in his home 24/7 or in their bedroom, and the whole of anyone's marriage can't possibly be known from the outside. If a friend or family member is reluctant to intervene, it may not be a question of their morality.

Hi all,

Just wanting to chime in a little - since the whole question about morality and intervening question surfaced after I mentioned that "if I had a dime for every person who said to me, 'I never thought you should have married her.'" type of comment.

Personally, I had a few of those - as in several. I had people - even as I explained what I was living - not really believe me. When they say that some times, in times like this, you will really know who your friends are, they are correct.  

I remember one in particular - reaching out as best I could - that my wife was hitting me - on a particular day she almost broke my glasses and almost really scratched my eye - no kidding. His answer, "Me and (wife) are worried about you Rev. But you married (my ex) her so now, try to make it work. Don't put up with sh-- but you still have to pick up what's yours."  And he means this is "man up" kind of way. And I will tell you - that knowing what I know now - if a friend of mine ever came to me with story like that - we'd be having a sit down to get more answers.

Another came after she broke the dishwasher when an argument started because I answered a work email on a Saturday afternoon.  Typical pwDPB double standard stuff. I called one of my "friends" for moral support and was told I was wrong. When the divorce finally came through - same friend said to me that she "didn't want to ruin our friendship by telling me I to leave."

There is SOO much shame for many men in admitting domestic violence.  When people don't want to know - yes - it's a moral issue.  And that's where I think this whole situation started.

Now what I am saying is not the same thing as staging an intervention - totally different scenario which has a whole host of moral issues around "intervene vs not intervene.". But victims of abuse - regardless of gender or sexual orientation - need to know that others have their back because they are stuck. Checking in to make sure someone is really "okay" and not faking it is never a bad thing...

My heart goes out to this family as they wrestle with so many charged emotions.

Peace and light to you all.

Rev

[babyducks]

Every case is individual, there are no rules as such. Anyway, the point of intervention in these cases is not to force a particular outcome (divorce). It is purely to deliver information which he is unaware of that may help the caretaker regain clarity and his sanity. He is enmeshed with a mentally ill woman after all.
 

I agree that every case is individual, and there are no formal rules.     I thought I would share my experience.     I have a family member, a cousin,  we are very close; being the remaining two survivors of a once larger family group.    When I started dating my pwBPD, my cousin was appalled.  She was quiet about it, didn't make any large or challenging statements but it was clear she was unhappy about my choice of partner.       As my relationship progressed and eventually the fault lines and fractures in my relationship became clear, my cousin and I had the type of conversation you are describing.    To be honest I rather doubt that my cousin would describe it as an intervention,   more a honest intimate conversation.   My cousin thought of it more as delivering information to help me regain my sanity and clarity.

for me, my experience was,  it permanently damaged our once close relationship.   our honest conversation was about 7 or 8 years ago, and to this day I do not share certain information about what is going on in my life because I no longer trust my cousin to 1) respect my boundaries, decisions, feelings,  and 2) trust that the information I share won't be used against me in some way.

a couple of thoughts / suggestions.     my cousin believed she was presenting me with information that I didn't have.   this was not accurate.   at that point,  I probably had 3 times the information she had and was doing things about it, things I wasn't prepared yet to share.

my cousin felt very strongly that presented with this conversation that I would 'snap too',   regain my clarity and sanity.    my cousin is also a scientist and had a collection of data, but not 10 pages.     my cousin severely and I mean severely underestimated the strength and complexity of the bond I had with my partner.   she did not take sufficient account of my feelings to make the conversation productive.   

words matter.    while my cousin  never used the words,  you're nuts,  you're partner is nuts,  you need to do something about this, let me tell you what,  that message was there.   I felt attacked.    the message was not "I'm concerned, what would make you more comfortable?  how can I support you?    I did not walk into a  psychologist in the room,  thankfully, because for me personally that would have made me turn right around and walk out.    that kind of significant intrusion into my personal life would have been a massive breach of my personal boundaries.

if my cousin underestimated the strength of my emotions, the intensity of my feelings; she also severely underestimated the strength of her feelings.   her own house was not in order when she launched this conversation, which made it less productive.

relationships with people with mental health issues are very hard.   they bring a lot of stress and strain to family units.    often the immediate reaction when the idea of a mental illness is raised is 'get help'.    and that's important.   it is a very significant thing.    it's not the ONLY thing however and often the focus becomes so intensely aimed at 'getting help',   getting some one into therapy, that other important factors are overlooked.

for me, on the day my cousin launched her conversation there were two psychologists, a psychiatrist, and a mental health nurse working to create some stability inside my relationship.   we were making slow progress.     

the end result of the conversation with my cousin was to create more emotional stress for me, this time external to the relationship I was in.   there was less safety, not more.

'ducks

[Ray2017]

Hi Jareth89,

My story of having friends deliver an 'intervention' is similar to babyducks.  My very best friend told me point blank I needed to leave my H (and move into her basement, at least temporarily).  Her father had anger issues, I know him well and often thought he's most likely on the spectrum for PD's as well, so I understood she was coming from an emotional place.  I listened to what she had to say, but kept on with my course of action (reading a ton, getting my own therapist, writing posts here).  Because we have kids, I need to make as much of an informed, well thought out and non-emotional decision as I can as to our future.  There's more to the story, but I can echo what 'Ducks has said - when/if my friend and I talk, it's totally surface ('weather and the conditions of the roads,' as my mom would say).  I lost a friend that day (by my own choosing). 

By now you've heard enough people who have counselled against an intervention or the like, so I'll tell you what HAS been really helpful to me.  Both my parents and my cousin know it's been a struggle for me with my H's issues.  My parents know most of the story; my cousin knows it all.  They have all told me that they are there for me and my kids 100% (no reference to the 'struggle') - any time, any day.  No pressure of what they think I should be doing.  Do I think they have their own opinions on the situation - of course I do!  BUT, because I don't feel like I'm being judged, I have freedom of speech with them.  I can tell them what I'm going through and what I'm feeling, and I have actual support.  If I get to the point that I decide it's better for the kids and me to leave, I know I'll have their full, unconditional support in that, too. 

I don't have any siblings, so I cannot imagine the bond you must have with a twin and how painful the distance must be.  But do not underestimate just being there and being a pillar of support - regardless of what your brother does or does not do.  It's a really powerful, meaningful thing, at least from my perspective.

[stolencrumbs]

I'll just echo what others have said. My parents, brother, and sister-in-law had an "intervention" years ago for me. It was not helpful. I don't know your brother, obviously, so maybe he really doesn't, but I knew what was going on, I knew my W's behaviors, I knew she was mentally ill, I knew how it had changed me and my life, and I knew how it had impacted my family. They literally told me nothing that I didn't already know. There was no light bulb moment to be had, and their apparently sincere belief that talking to (at) me about it was going to yield some grand "a-ha" moment was, frankly, offensive. And coming at it like my wife was heroin or cocaine was not at all helpful. She's a human being. It's not a drug addiction, no matter what the other similarities might be. It was, all in all, not good or helpful. It's now been years since they did that, and I am separated from my wife, and I think they were right about a lot of things, but I don't look back at all and think "gosh, I'm sure glad they had that intervention." I see where they were coming from and I can appreciate that. But it isn't what I needed. It didn't help. It caused more stress in my life that I absolutely didn't need at the time, and heaped on more guilt that I also didn't need.

I agree that all cases are different, and should be treated as such. Just sharing my experience of being on the other end of the intervention.

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is located here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343363.msg13101967#msg13101967

Thank you.