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Author Topic: When your family won't honor NC?  (Read 507 times)
ProudDad12
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« on: March 09, 2020, 02:22:02 PM »

Hi all,

It's been a while. We've had a peaceful period of no harassment from my FOO, and my wife and I have been trying to focus on healing and finding some level of normalcy. It's been really nice. Only real issue I've been having is dreaming about my family, which I'm guessing is somehow part of the "grieving"? I've actually been meaning to make a post about that single topic, but haven't been on here much because posting strangely picks at an emotional wound I've been trying to let heal.

Anyway to the topic, my family decided they hit their limit and have been trying to get us to engage again. While we've been looking over our shoulders for a couple months now after my dad's veiled threats, I had finally gotten to a point I was comfortable being out in the front yard with the kids (who don't know about the issues at hand). Well I was in the driveway working on my truck Friday when my dad's jeep comes down the street. Realizing it was him, I went inside and locked the doors, having no intention of having a confrontation with him. Luckily I was home alone. Well, it was both my parents. Mom came to the door first, and rang the doorbell several times. She went back to the Jeep, they left, then immediately came back because it was my dad's turn. He spend 15 minutes with constant ringing and knocking. My wife finally got tired of the notifications and spoke to him over the doorbell asking him to stop ringing it and leave. My dad gave a death stare back to the camera, and slowly and deliberately range it again. He continued to ring for a while and finally gave up.

Bear in mind given all he's seen and heard, our counselor recently recommended we call the police next time my dad shows up. Well we didn't, because I couldn't force myself to and he finally left before my wife did. Won't rehash all that there other than a reminder that my dad joked about shooting my wife once, talks of fantasizing about beating someone with a steel pipe when he was angry, and if my mom is to be believed, did serious harm to her once.

Last night was my sister's turn. She's emailing me again, I'm assuming through different addresses because I had her blocked. She looked my wife up in her public work directory and emailed her at work. She's emailing me at work. I didn't read the email from last night but my wife did and said she basically wants to meet us and apologize for everything (despite me saying last contact that this is not about apologies or forgiveness), and spent most of the email talking about herself and how our NC is causing her all kinds of problems.

They aren't giving up, and they are going to keep finding ways to get to us. And are utterly clueless that it only sets them back in any thin hopes of reconciliation. In fact they've become my own personal nightmare.

Anyway, after a period of peace, my wife and I are back to being unsettled. I hate it. I've already been struggling due to missing the "good" parts of my family. Not to mention the fact that I have a new niece I've never met and may never meet. It's all really hard, but we made a choice last year this is what is best for the well being of our family. So I'm trying to grieve people who come to my house and ring the doorbell.

I have friends who are getting bolder in their advice, going as far to say this isn't going to stop until I file a restraining order, since it's clear they don't respect my wish to be left alone. I don't want to go there, but my gray hair is accelerating too fast. I'll hit 40 this year and I've wasted way too much of my 30's worrying about my FOO. Stressed and depressed.
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2020, 03:08:59 PM »

You are wondering what to do when your family refuses to honor NC. Usually what happens when you set a boundary like NC, family members will continue to violate the boundary until they give up if indeed they do. I don't really have any advice except for you and your wife to do what you have to keep the NC and the boundaries you have set. I come from a family with many immediate and extended family members with BPD. I admire your decision to go NC while at the same time feeling your sorrow at not being able to meet your new niece.
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2020, 03:14:45 PM »

I am sorry you are going through this. I think this is a difficult situation no matter how you implement it- any kind of "boundary" with my family seemed to unleash the gates of their wrath. And my parents were also clueless. BPD mom can not see the impact of her behavior. Her perspective is from victim mode.

Again, I had to look at an NC decision realistically. If I were to do this, I would have to be completely NC with everyone in my mother's circle or it just wouldn't work. Also my mother has convinced her family that I am "keeping them from her grandchildren". They send her pictures off Facebook, even though I send pictures because they assume her terrible daughter won't. They also report news they hear about my kids like brushfire. My kids don't post personal things on FB but if they say anything to anyone, it goes straight to my mom. Your kids are young, so you have some control, but it's hard to keep my kids from talking to all their cousins and they like their cousins. I also realize that any weddings, any family events had to be completely avoided.

No, your family won't respect NC because, well they don't respect any boundaries do they? It's really all on you to decide to enforce this and how to do it. I also would cringe at the thought of calling police on my parents. To their point of view, if they truly are clueless they would not understand. Any kind of explanation would just result in dysregulation.

I don't know about your parents, but with my mother, there isn't a middle ground that she respects. She pushes boundaries- even when I do agree to do something nice- she pushes and pushes until I say "no" and then she acts very wounded as if I just did something terrible to her.

I understand the grieving. As crazy as our families can be, they are our families. I don't think there is any way to be completely comfortable with these decisions. As you know, I went LC. I just couldn't manage the idea of NC and disconnecting from everyone connected to her. I think it would be very difficult. I wish you strength with this. It's tough.
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2020, 03:28:04 PM »

So I'm trying to grieve people who come to my house and ring the doorbell

I am so sorry you are going through this, this one sentence is so telling. I wish I had something wise to say. I think that you taking this NC and putting your wife and children before your FOO is amazing and courageous, and probably one of the hardest things.

Is there any chance of moving and not giving them your new address? Horrible to even have to consider but looking over your shoulder constantly it's not good either.  It feels like a thin line getting space to heal and running away from the problem. I am really good at running, so when I suggest this my head goes to that place that's like is that really the answer? I don't know but NC is what I needed and I don't think I could have done this without it. Maybe a long vacation something outside your home where they can't get to you, even just a short break?

Silver lining this seems like an improvement from the last time they showed up as you did not engage yourself this time, and it seems your wife's engagement was minimal.

wishing peace for you..

SS
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2020, 06:17:33 PM »

Oh wow, they’re at it again.  I’m like Sepia. I run/move far away. That’s been the only way to enforce LC or NC with my FOO. They stop at nothing to get at me. My only sibling backs them up, not me.

I wish I had a better answer. Sorry.
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2020, 11:21:18 PM »

Excerpt
Bear in mind given all he's seen and heard, our counselor recently recommended we call the police next time my dad shows up

What do you feel will happen if you follow your counselor's advice? Your dad did.
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ProudDad12
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2020, 10:24:10 AM »

Thanks everyone, I know there's only so much that can be said but I really appreciate the support. If I've said this once I've said it a hundred times, but if nothing else it just helps connecting with people who "get it".

You are wondering what to do when your family refuses to honor NC. Usually what happens when you set a boundary like NC, family members will continue to violate the boundary until they give up if indeed they do.

We've about decided they will never give up, they're going to do everything they can (at least everything that doesn't require introspection). And they're too enmeshed to understand the fault in their actions, because they're their own circle of validation.

No, your family won't respect NC because, well they don't respect any boundaries do they? It's really all on you to decide to enforce this and how to do it. I also would cringe at the thought of calling police on my parents. To their point of view, if they truly are clueless they would not understand. Any kind of explanation would just result in dysregulation.

I don't know about your parents, but with my mother, there isn't a middle ground that she respects. She pushes boundaries- even when I do agree to do something nice- she pushes and pushes until I say "no" and then she acts very wounded as if I just did something terrible to her.

You hit the nail on the head. They've never had boundaries and the majority of the conflict we've had in the past with them started from us enforcing our own (i.e., asking them to honor our wishes/rules for our kids, wanting a heads up before they show up at the door with packed bags for a weekend visit, etc.). You're right about the dysregulation part too. My wife and I are going nuts resisting temptation to respond to my sister to once again explain that this isn't about individual events and apologies. This is about finally putting an end to a pattern that they refuse to address. But they don't get it. My mom has no middle ground either. It's all or nothing, her biggest desire is to hold us close and tight (and within her control), and boundaries just get in the way of that.

Is there any chance of moving and not giving them your new address? Horrible to even have to consider but looking over your shoulder constantly it's not good either.  It feels like a thin line getting space to heal and running away from the problem. I am really good at running, so when I suggest this my head goes to that place that's like is that really the answer? I don't know but NC is what I needed and I don't think I could have done this without it. Maybe a long vacation something outside your home where they can't get to you, even just a short break?

We've joked about moving to a gated neighborhood. There's the possibility of me having to relocate for work later this year, but I'm rooting against that option for now. But between this and a few other factors, once we know whether we'll have to relocate, we may seriously consider another neighborhood. And you're right about the thin line. My wife has scolded me multiple times since Friday for referring to myself as a coward. It also doesn't help that my "fight or flight" instinct tends to favor "fight", despite me generally being a compliant and non-confrontational person. So me "hiding" when they show up really messes with my head.

I agree we need a vacation. We took a long weekend trip a month or so back and it was really nice not being worried about visitors showing up and traumatizing our kids. This past Saturday we made an impromptu trip to see my dad's brother and sister and their families. It's really nice to have at least some family to lean on, especially ones who see and understand what's happening.

Oh wow, they’re at it again.  I’m like Sepia. I run/move far away. That’s been the only way to enforce LC or NC with my FOO. They stop at nothing to get at me. My only sibling backs them up, not me.

I wish I had a better answer. Sorry.

Unfortunately short of legal action, that might be the only answer!

What do you feel will happen if you follow your counselor's advice? Your dad did.

You mean my dad did show up? So, the scenario I would bet on is when the police arrived, my dad would either get in the car and leave before they got parked, or he would contain himself while they told him to leave. However, his fury would peak and it would be all he could do to keep from getting himself arrested. If my mom was there she would become an emotional wreck. And the aftereffects would be that we escalated to a point of no return. Though it might give my mom some great material for victim roleplaying. At the urging of multiple people, my wife did file another police report after work that day. She showed the officer the video footage from our doorbell. He agreed with her that calling them is the thing to do, and told her we should have done it right away, even if my dad had left. In the moment, that was a really hard barrier for me to break, but we might have to if this happens again. I just don't want to.


So there was a bit of irony to this yesterday. My wife finally read one of my sister's emails to her. It was LONG. Most of it was blaming my cousin for everything (which all she's really done was made us aware of things my family has done). But the interesting part was when my sister started apologizing for things we didn't even know about. We had previously hoped my cousin wasn't spinning lies, despite her motives coming across as genuine (she's a very no-BS type person, similar to my wife). Anyway, it turns out she only made us aware of a small fraction of what my sister has said about us, because my sister apologizes for much more than we knew about, just assuming my cousin had told her. So that was a bittersweet sort of confirmation (for the record, that was all mostly sidebar type stuff and not the crux of our NC).

Another thing that happened was a friend, who is from and still lives in my small hometown and knows my family, spoke up to my wife and told her "God wants families to be together". Well aside from the fact that we haven't kept this friend informed of all our happenings, that really hit me in the gut. I wanted to respond with things like "true families don't behave this way" or "does God also want us to be verbally and emotionally abused?". Anyway, I know she doesn't have the full picture and likely has been fed some level of vicitmization BS from my family, but it's still tough to hear.

Thank you again everyone for the encouragement. I know there aren't really any good answers here, but it really helps being able to get this stuff out and hear from others who can empathize.
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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2020, 11:44:23 AM »

You might want to read some of what Bill Eddy has to say about negative advocates. Negative advocates are people who believe what the disordered person says and advocate for them yet will in some cases stop enabling the disordered person when they hear the other side of the story from you.
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2020, 08:48:36 AM »

You might want to read some of what Bill Eddy has to say about negative advocates. Negative advocates are people who believe what the disordered person says and advocate for them yet will in some cases stop enabling the disordered person when they hear the other side of the story from you.

Thanks! I just looked at some of his stuff and it seems spot on.

We're trying to figure out how to proceed next. My wife broke NC only to respond to my sister asking her not to email her at work anymore, as that can get her in trouble. While my sister seems to have respected that, I think that being the only thing my wife said has upset her more. We woke up to a fresh blast of emails this morning (luckily not to my wife's work). Tone of begging. And telling me it's her 30th birthday today and using that as more guilt. She needs to be careful with that one, she may be forgetting that my 30th birthday, the day I was given my first and only surprise birthday party, was turned from one of the best days of my life to one of the worst due to my parents' irritation with my wife (it was the day my dad joked about shooting her and also triggered a 10 year rift with his extended family, taking us with them). They robbed me of a great memory. But as with everything else, I guess it's only my FOO's thoughts and feelings that matter, despite what they say otherwise.

To be honest I don't know where we'll go from here. There is an itch to respond to her in more detail, or to take her up on her request to meet, if only to tell her exactly where we stand.  My wife had enough and let loose with a "response" in a word document the other night. She hit 9 pages with it, letting loose pretty much everything on her mind. She read it to me and I was impressed with how she was able to lay it all out. If nothing else it may be a point of reference for her were she to meet my sister.

If that even happens. I'm trying not to think about it. I made a choice to choose the well being of my nuclear family over the appeasement of my FOO. Entertaining the idea of a "true" resolution/reconciliation (which would require a miracle from God) only to be disappointed is something I don't think my heart can take. I yearn for even one of them to understand our side of the story. Meeting my sister would be the most likely scenario for that. But I don't know that that needs to happen. I think it's setting us up, not to mention as much as my heart breaks for my sister, I don't know how much of her to trust. She has a good heart but conforms to my mom's model completely.

I'll give my sister this... she at least tried to address her side of it. She tried to think objectively to her role and attempted to apologize. I mean, it was invalidated because she spent half the email blaming my cousin for being the root of all evil, but still. My wife even said if she had not included the parts about my cousin, she'd seriously be considering meeting her. This is all more than my dad does, he just says "one way or another we're going to talk". That's all I need to know right there about how he would expect the "talk" to go.

In addition to all that my dad has resumed trying to call me from inter-company lines. My sister's birthday is today, my mom's is in a few days, and my son's is in a couple weeks. I guess that was too much for them and they needed to resume their attempts to force us back in.

Having a rough day Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 08:53:44 AM by ProudDad12 » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2020, 10:16:43 AM »

I am sorry you are having a tough day, ProudDad. You are doing a wonderful job of navigating a really tough and painful situation.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

It is clear you are working hard to be a wonderful example for your children and are trying to show then what a healthy family can look like. They are lucky to have you.



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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2020, 03:05:56 PM »


Hey ProudDad12

Can I challenge you to think about how long you wish to maintain NC?


As you think through that challenge, I'm going to suggest aloud that you probably said "it depends on what they do..." 

While that's understandable, wouldn't it be a different world if they were reacting to you, instead of you reacting to them..

Why not pick something that you think works for you and let them react to that.

I'm suggesting this because it seems obvious to me you really don't want NC.  Otherwise, why shy away from following your counselors advice and calling the police?


Best,

FF
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2020, 05:06:16 AM »

ProudDad12   Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

We're trying to figure out how to proceed next.
I highly recommend the book about self-protection when you're deciding how to distance yourself from people. It's recommended in lesson 4 (Managing Your Relationships) of this SIL board's lessons.

The Gift of Fear - Gavin De Becker

Your first post in this thread reminded me about some of the stories De Becker tells about how RO's etc. may actually work against you. It helped me a lot in understanding how people are the way they are—which then led me to positive results regarding my own distancing decisions.

An example is how I decided the best outcome for me regarding one person I decided to consciously detach from is 100% no interaction. There are discussions about how requests / RO's etc., to get people to do things actually works against you, and the suggestion by De Becker in one instance was to set up sort of "dead end" contact addresses.

My wife broke NC only to respond to my sister asking her not to email her at work anymore, as that can get her in trouble.

While my sister seems to have respected that, I think that being the only thing my wife said has upset her more.

We woke up to a fresh blast of emails this morning (luckily not to my wife's work).

The idea is that the person tries to contact you, and they think you can see the contact, but actually you can't. Applied to your wife's example, I would consider (1) to set up an email auto-filter / auto-block, or (2) not even disclose working locations in the first place. To me, these are more effective than actually making a request to the person you're trying to manage. If you tell the person (sister in your example), not to contact you by X channel, De Becker's point is that this telegraphs a message of rejection—i.e., it's implicit that you're saying, "No, I don't want to receive X solicitation from you". This is the worst thing you can do with the difficult person because it actually increases the difficult behaviour.

The corollary to such strategies is that you have to have 100% personal commitment to sticking to them. To me, what that meant is that you have to recognise in yourself that it's quite satisfying that you've got a highly effective strategy to dealing with them, and it means not to tell them what you're doing, to really enjoy the 100% benefit of doing that.

To put it quite blunt—you sacrifice the pleasure of seeing their face when you tell them how you're dealing with them, for the mutually exclusive benefit of enjoying the peace you've earned. De Becker's discussion helps a lot with understanding why it's in your interests and your own family's interests to stick to your guns. I'm quite sure he talks about the self-discipline required to do the follow-up non-action as and when a "need" arises.

So I highly recommend you read it. It helped me a lot with avoiding rough days altogether and getting that peace we so strongly want.

Good luck and I hope you're enjoying your peace.
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2020, 06:56:39 AM »

Hi ProudDad12,

I empathize with your situation as I have a sibling, a brother, who won't honor my NC. At Christmas and New Year, I was completely NC, my uBPD brother was surprised, he got the message that I'm fed up with the harrassment. Continue with NC ProudDad12, you are passing a hidden message to them that you refuse their behaviour towards you and your wife. Refuse to let the BPD family members emotionally manipulate your mind. People with BPD are emotional manipulators and they play every trick in the book to get to us victims. Refuse to listen to the BPD person's lies, you are doing the right thing. Stay strong, keep it NC. Search online for any national helpline phone numbers or try counselling if things are getting extremely bad. I know, sometimes police is not the answer.
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TelHill
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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2020, 09:03:51 AM »

ProudDad12   Welcome new member (click to insert in post)
I highly recommend the book about self-protection when you're deciding how to distance yourself from people. It's recommended in lesson 4 (Managing Your Relationships) of this SIL board's lessons.

The Gift of Fear - Gavin De Becker

Your first post in this thread reminded me about some of the stories De Becker tells about how RO's etc. may actually work against you. It helped me a lot in understanding how people are the way they are—which then led me to positive results regarding my own distancing decisions.

An example is how I decided the best outcome for me regarding one person I decided to consciously detach from is 100% no interaction. There are discussions about how requests / RO's etc., to get people to do things actually works against you, and the suggestion by De Becker in one instance was to set up sort of "dead end" contact addresses.

The idea is that the person tries to contact you, and they think you can see the contact, but actually you can't. Applied to your wife's example, I would consider (1) to set up an email auto-filter / auto-block, or (2) not even disclose working locations in the first place. To me, these are more effective than actually making a request to the person you're trying to manage. If you tell the person (sister in your example), not to contact you by X channel, De Becker's point is that this telegraphs a message of rejection—i.e., it's implicit that you're saying, "No, I don't want to receive X solicitation from you". This is the worst thing you can do with the difficult person because it actually increases the difficult behaviour.

gotbushels,

I read this book years ago and again a few months ago. Thank you pointing out de Becker’s techniques can be used with your FOO and extended family. I never would have thought about it, but this concept is genius. The book has been invaluable to me dealing with problem people.
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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2020, 09:07:39 PM »

That's a good suggestion, gotbushels. I read his book maybe 15 years ago, but forgot about those specifics.
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2020, 08:52:07 AM »

Can I challenge you to think about how long you wish to maintain NC?

As you think through that challenge, I'm going to suggest aloud that you probably said "it depends on what they do..."  

While that's understandable, wouldn't it be a different world if they were reacting to you, instead of you reacting to them..

Why not pick something that you think works for you and let them react to that.

I'm suggesting this because it seems obvious to me you really don't want NC.  Otherwise, why shy away from following your counselors advice and calling the police?

I admit I struggle with this. I mean as far as what I want, I don't want any of this in the first place. And we're not NC out of want (although when it works, the break from their guilt/control/drama is nice). Their actions (or better put, pattern of behavior) finally put me in a position where I felt that I had to make a very difficult choice, and the result was NC with them for the emotional and mental well being of my nuclear family. And with us having two small kids, I don't think we have the benefit of LC, or responding with periods of predetermined NC whenever they cross lines. It would be too confusing and damaging to our kids.

So I'm embarrassed to say I don't really know how to answer your question in a productive way... I'm trying to steel myself for the likely possibility for the NC to be indefinite, no matter how much it hurts my heart. I'm in a place that I feel like the only way I can stop the NC is if they can show us real introspection and willingness to do better. The way my wife wants to put it to them, "this will last until you're able to tell us why it's happening". Unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen.

ProudDad12   Welcome new member (click to insert in post)
I highly recommend the book about self-protection when you're deciding how to distance yourself from people. It's recommended in lesson 4 (Managing Your Relationships) of this SIL board's lessons.

The Gift of Fear - Gavin De Becker
Your first post in this thread reminded me about some of the stories De Becker tells about how RO's etc. may actually work against you. It helped me a lot in understanding how people are the way they are—which then led me to positive results regarding my own distancing decisions.


Thanks! I will definitely check that out. I started to comment it might be good "quarantine reading", but with 2 kids stuck in the house with us our focus might just be survival!

Dumb question, what is RO?

The idea is that the person tries to contact you, and they think you can see the contact, but actually you can't. Applied to your wife's example, I would consider (1) to set up an email auto-filter / auto-block, or (2) not even disclose working locations in the first place. To me, these are more effective than actually making a request to the person you're trying to manage. If you tell the person (sister in your example), not to contact you by X channel, De Becker's point is that this telegraphs a message of rejection—i.e., it's implicit that you're saying, "No, I don't want to receive X solicitation from you". This is the worst thing you can do with the difficult person because it actually increases the difficult behaviour.

Thanks, and I agree! That's somewhat been my strategy... I don't want to see what they are saying because if they do, it will guilt me severely or make me want to respond. For instance, I found out that my brother told my sister that I told him he is the only one I consider family from them. I have no idea what I could have said last year than got distorted into that, but it breaks my heart and it's all I can do not to try to correct that misunderstanding to make her feel better.

As far as my wife responding how she did, yeah I really didn't want her to and I knew it would stir the nest. My wife only did it for business reasons, showing the "trail" of requesting it to stop. Her job is such that her emails can be subpoenaed and used against her, like in this case, a lawyer making an argument that a mistake made was due to personal drama being handled at work. So she was trying to protect herself however she could, and had already asked her boss about filtering emails.

Hi ProudDad12,

I empathize with your situation as I have a sibling, a brother, who won't honor my NC. At Christmas and New Year, I was completely NC, my uBPD brother was surprised, he got the message that I'm fed up with the harrassment. Continue with NC ProudDad12, you are passing a hidden message to them that you refuse their behaviour towards you and your wife. Refuse to let the BPD family members emotionally manipulate your mind. People with BPD are emotional manipulators and they play every trick in the book to get to us victims. Refuse to listen to the BPD person's lies, you are doing the right thing. Stay strong, keep it NC. Search online for any national helpline phone numbers or try counselling if things are getting extremely bad. I know, sometimes police is not the answer.

I really appreciate the encouragement! This is tough and disheartening, and the family here has been a big help. We actually sent my FOO a similar message a couple years back with a 3-4 week NC over the holidays, but I guess in our case the message didn't sink in deep enough.


Now I'm going to go look up that book...

Thank you again everyone for the insight and encouragement. I've felt depleted lately, and I finally put a finger on a partial reason why the other day... I feel like I've gotten stronger in recent years, so I would think I could handle this better. But the nature of this situation (and my personality) is that I spend most of my energy fighting myself. So everything is focused on fighting an equal force to an exhausting stalemate, and then I still have to muster the energy for the rest of everyday life!

Trying to navigate a confusing and painful path that very few people can understand, so I'm very grateful for these boards.
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2020, 10:19:22 AM »

RO - Restraining Order
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2020, 10:30:08 AM »


Try this idea on for size...


You reach out to your family and schedule an afternoon meal at a restaurant in two weeks.  In that two weeks you are NC. 

Show up to the meal with pictures and trinkets (perhaps a story and pics your kids have written about them), spend an hour or so together and then come home.

It's a public space.

If they get abusive, leave.

Wash rinse repeat.

Focus most of the visit on grandkid stories.  Let them know that if a few visits go well, you will consider trying to solve some of the issues before you.  (you want to be proactive to let them know what is and isn't on the table)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2020, 01:09:43 PM »

I think what FF is proposing is you being proactive and not reactive- and also coming to some sort of peace with the situation. I think this is tough because, it's not what we want.

I think another component to this is your wife. 

You definitely need to stand by your wife. This is a sort of - your marriage or your parents thing and of course, you choose your marriage.

It's a bit easier for me as my H doesn't much care what I decide with my BPD mother. She doesn't really get to him- for a few reasons. One is that, I'm the female child. She likes males. She tries to impress him and get him to like her. I could see how your mom might react to your wife differently, and how your wife reacts to her.

As far as FF's suggestion, I do something similar. I still see my mother but I have boundaries around the visit. I don't stay with her. I try to do things in public with her. She's most likely to act out when others are not able to see it. I avoid emotional and personal topics. I keep the visits short.

If she acts out, I leave. It only took a few times for her to figure this out. Expect boundaries to be tested. Once she starts, I have literally walked out the door to my car and left. Just like that. ( we were at her house so she wasn't left out in public- but it's at her house where she does it. )

Not for now, but something to think about in the future if you choose to. I think if I were you, I would not bring my wife. I don't always involve my H in these visits. He also sees his family on his own sometimes. His family isn't as difficult, but we find it easier to each deal with our own families.

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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2020, 01:21:29 PM »

I think if I were you, I would not bring my wife. 

Here is an example of the wisdom in these boards.  I hand't thought of this option and I must say it's a wise one. 

Here is my reasoning.

1.  I think this option will work better than staying totally away and having them randomly  attempt to accost you.

2.  If it doesn't work after several months, perhaps half a year...then your future has been clarified.  Which means I doubt you would hesitate to call police/enforce a no trespassing order...etc etc.

The key in Notwendy's story is to be consistent with the walkouts and/or limit the situations where those can happen.



Best,

FF
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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2020, 02:11:39 PM »

RO - Restraining Order

Well there's a giant facepalm for myself! Maybe I should given the coffee longer to kick in.

Try this idea on for size...


You reach out to your family and schedule an afternoon meal at a restaurant in two weeks.  In that two weeks you are NC.  

Show up to the meal with pictures and trinkets (perhaps a story and pics your kids have written about them), spend an hour or so together and then come home.

It's a public space.

If they get abusive, leave.

Wash rinse repeat.

Focus most of the visit on grandkid stories.  Let them know that if a few visits go well, you will consider trying to solve some of the issues before you.  (you want to be proactive to let them know what is and isn't on the table)

Best,

FF

I don't know if this says more about me or more about them, but visualizing doing that sent me into a mild panic.

Promise I'm not trying to be contrary, just trying to talk out my thoughts. Aside from the idea of opening back up to them (in any capacity) scaring me, one thing I struggle with is the subtlety of their abuse/boundary crossing. Aside from passive aggressive comments that get "explained away" if confronted (which rarely are confronted, due to fear of an explosive response), most of the transgressions are subtle and under the surface. Until they get angry and disregulate, the issues are more of the FOG and gaslighting sort. Though putting it that way doesn't quite capture what I'm trying to say.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this is... I'd see them on their best behavior to an extent. My dad might play nice, but he'd treat us like children and not apologize for a thing. My mom would apologize for anything and everything. There would be slight passive aggressive things that get under our skin, but at that point we'd already be down the path and want to try to meet them in the middle. Eventually this might lead to them seeing our kids, at which point my mom would start crying and act like some terrible wrong to her has finally been undone. We might go along OK for a while, but things would start to irk us, and on their side they would start to get annoyed with our unwillingness to conform to the closed system. I'd start to get anxious, feeling the tension under the surface. This would last about a year and a half until everything boils over and my mom finally loses her cool and rages at us.

It's like I've been there before Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

It also goes with the assumption that my wife would be willing to allow them back in her life. She's at a point where she wants to be done with them forever. Though amazingly, after my sister's first email last week, she actually had an inclination to respond and agree to meet my sister and have a discussion, with hopes of bridging some understanding. But the subsequent blast of emails and calls nixed the idea for her, because with it happening within 2 hours of her request for no emails at work, she knew my sister had immediately told everyone, despite her insisting she could keep it between the two of them.

Again, I'm not trying to be contrary or dismissive. I'm reading it and wrestling with it. I just wanted to give some perspective on some of the things that come to my mind when I consider some of these things. At the end of the day, I feel like I'd need some indication of understanding and earnest desire to fix things for the future. I think that's one reason why I'm hesitant to go RO (aside from the obvious reasons to not want to). When I get a message from them telling me to call, or to give me ultimatums, etc, that shows me there is no change. If I get an email or letter with introspective acknowledgment, then maybe the game starts to change. But I'm tired of trying to explain to them. Heck, I even tried to show them the path... when I broke NC to talk to my mom last year, I outright suggested she find a therapist, show them all our communications, and have them explain to her why this was happening. I told her that was my request to her.

That said, I know I'm not playing this perfectly. I'm doing my absolute best to try to make the best choices I can at each step, but this is abnormal territory we're in. Which is why I try to lean on every objective outside observer with advice that I can. So I hope I'm not coming across as naysaying!

Another angle to this that I don't discuss much is my daughter's behavior. Until last summer, she would throw LONG tantrums, to the point of scratching herself and hurting herself. Her not getting her way could lead to a bad day. And it's not like we let her get away with it, we lost out on a lot of things just because we had to make the choice to stay home to take the time to address the issue and not give in to her. We finally started taking her to a child therapist her pediatrician recommended. And after our NC started, a funny thing happened. Her behavior got better. The tantrums dropped in severity, duration, and frequency, to the point where it's all but a non-issue now. She now recognizes and apologizes when she does wrong.

She's seven and a half now, so we know this could be simply from getting older, but it's hard to ignore the timing. She doesn't see the therapist anymore (we never saw much improvement with her anyway), but at one point after a discussion with my wife, she did theorize that my mom and sister could be saying things to her, and making her feel stuck between us, and in turn making her feel torn/confused/unsettled/etc.). It's also consistent with the fact that we could always count on her behavior being worse for a week or two after seeing my parents.

Little example about how I know my mom didn't help with those matters... despite me asking her NOT to suggest in front of our daughter that she stay with them or go to the beach with them, etc (so that we become the bad guys who say no), she denied doing it, and yet did exactly that the last time she saw her. In fact, she held her, like a baby, babying and coddling her, begging us to let her come stay. Why my daughter nuzzled up against her. I was furious, because I had asked her not to do that, and to have those discussions with us directly.

I'm stopping there because I got way to longwinded. Sorry! I guess my point to the last ramble was that IF there is a connection between them and our daughter's prior behavior issues, that's really something I don't want to revisit! Yet one more complication to the pain of NC.


OK I lied about stopping... there were two more responses while I typed my novel.

So I hope most of what I said still stands with the new information. I agree I should be consistent with walking out in that scenario, it's just hard to find a "trigger" (especially without questioning my own judgement in the processes). The not including my wife is tough one though... In my mind, they have to make this right with her. In the reconciliation in one of our previous conflicts, conversation was basically me and them, and all of a sudden we were tentatively better and my wife was left out of the whole process. She never got closure, and it reinforced my family's MO of I'm responsible for handling and reining in my wife. I'm not sure if the nuances of my family changes anything, but if I were to go alone I would have to be on my absolute best A game and give a perfect performance in order to navigate that process.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 02:18:50 PM by ProudDad12 » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2020, 03:00:09 PM »


I would take any thought of "closure" and get rid of it.

None of my ideas have them "seeing the light". 

My ideas are things YOU can do that will calm things and reduce the aount of reactivity.

Much of what you describe is "creep" to get over your boundaries.  That's why YOU determine the setting and boundaries ahead of time.  They WILL try to "creep" and do other things from time to time.  You enforce the boundaries and the situation will calm, one way or another.

Think about "the other side" of this and if you are willing to make changes on the "other side" (your current course) then I would support you staying that course.

So, next time a family vehicle comes down the road, proudly stay in your front yard and call the authorities.  What they learned from last time is they can make you run, which I think will make it more likely they do it again.

Not trying to be argumentative or say you are wrong or that you need to do this ASAP. 

I DO hope you see that your current course of "running away" isn't sustainable.  Spending the next xx years reacting to them is going to take a toll.  I see them reacting to you being much less of a toll on you.

I don't see a pathway forward without a cost...sad to say.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2020, 08:52:22 AM »

Staff only

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343671.0

Thank you
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