Sharing Custody with COVID-19

[Grady]

H is set to pick up SS today to bring him here for the week.  I have a bit of hesitation as H told me SS has been in a house of 12 people for the past week and they are not exactly taking things seriously.  I mean I honestly don't expect BPD's family to take any of this seriously because that's who they are, but we have been quite diligent with our social distancing.  I know I don't have a choice.  H isn't going to not get his S.  How are you guys all dealing with this?  I told H I was going to give SS a bath as soon as he got here, but honestly, that won't really do much if he's already exposed.  I'm not typically an alarmist, but my aunt is an infectious disease doctor who spent her whole career studying viruses and so I know how serious this is and can't be taken lightly. 

[worriedStepmom]

We worry too.  My biokids' stepmom is a nurse.  My SD's mom is a home health worker, and her mom (with whom they live) is a receptionist at a hospital.  LOTS of potential germs to go around.

We've decided to continue to have the visitations right now.  We're trying to only leave the house for a parent to go to the grocery store once every 10 days and for the occasional doctor appointment that can't be postponed.  If the kids are carriers after being with their other families, we're hopeful those measures me we adults won't pass it to anyone outside of our family.

We at least have an agreement with my ex that if his wife is exposed to any potential cases at work, then the kids stay with me.

[kells76]

I was just thinking about this, too, this morning.

DH & I don't plan to suggest any alternative schedule right now. I suspect it would be Mom raising the issue if at all, and either framing it as "SD11 is scared to go over", or -- many of you have heard Mom's latest drama, that she is going to be a surrogate -- she doesn't want the kids to get something from us and transmit it to her. None of these scenarios that I suspect would involve any "fault" on Mom's part... 

Waiting for her to make any move if at all. But at this point, the kids have been going between per usual, so anything that is going to get transmitted is getting transmitted. By the time any of us in either household "has" something, it's "too late". So, as long as we don't see my parents or grandparents, I'm fine.

Weird, weird times.

[Grady]

Okay so I guess I just keep as is and be grateful our transfers are only once a week.  If we have a lock down (which I'm fairly certain is going to happen soon in my state) and SS is with us, I wonder what sort of stink BPD will have about continuing to move SS back and forth.  I am sure she will insist on still switching. 

[kells76]

That's a good question.

As I think of the kids' two-house situation, I basically think of it as "one household" for this virus situation. With the incubation/transmission time of up to 14 days before symptoms, it's like, by the time someone in one house has it, probably the other house has it, too.

It may be worth considering if the normal schedule can be kept. I.e., if you guys did have SS stay with you during a quarantine, would she overreact and decide to keep him with her next time/make a run for it again? Or, if SS is with her during a quarantine, would she "pretend" to be concerned and use that to keep him from coming over to you?

Tricky stuff.

Any chance you can phone an ask-a-nurse type hotline? They HAVE to have encountered this question already. Maybe they could point you to some type of printout or guidance in this situation that you can reference in decision making, so that it takes pressure off of you.

Anything at all in the PP remotely related? Any clauses about "if child is sick" or "if parent is sick"?

Maybe just plan ahead, gather info, and sit on it?

Ugh... so awful not just dealing with the virus, but potential disordered responses.

[Grady]

Of course BPD wants to have him with her because all she cares about is her son and he's the most important thing in her life and she's the best mom ever.  She will worry constantly with him out of her sight.  Sigh...So there will be no reasoning with her and she will use anything we do against us.  It is kind of ironic that he seems to be sick every week he's with her but rarely on the weeks he's with us.  He gets sick the day after he arrives to her.  Supposedly he's been sick all this week with her.  Not COVID-19 sick, just a lingering cold/cough. 

[worriedStepmom]

My SD was constantly sick when with her mom.  Lots of minor colds, sniffles/sneezing and coughs, and lots of time off school.  At our house, she wasn't sick nearly as often.

We finally took her for allergy testing to see if there was some underlying plant or something that was causing it. The allergist didn't find anything and volunteered that for kids, sometimes stress causes them to produce a lot of mucus.  They look/act/feel like they have a mild cold, but it is completely a stress-related response.  That may be what's going on with your SS too.

[Grady]

Oh wow, that's so interesting.  I never thought about that.  I figured it was just from his grandparent's house being old and musty.  But that is a really good point.  He definitely is stressed there.

[kells76]

The 4 "quarantine" scenarios I'm thinking of are:

1. She wants to keep him, but you don't think it's necessary
2. She wants to keep him, and you agree it's necessary
3. She wants him ONLY at your house, but you don't think it's necessary
4. She wants him ONLY at your house, and you agree it's necessary

OK, so:
#4 is a miracle,
#3 you'd probably disagree, but keep SS at your house.
#2 would be problem free, but unlikely
#1 is really the issue -- you disagree about parameters for going between houses

So there will be no reasoning with her and she will use anything we do against us.

This is sounding to me like you and DH quietly assemble all the info you need for decision making (i.e. anything from the PP that's relevant, any recommendations or guidelines from SS's pediatrician, etc) and stick to the schedule for now? And if she pulls the "But I NEEEEEDDDD him" move (or basically the same move, but camouflaged as "But he's too sick to go to your house" or whatever), then do the "we're sticking to the court order, see paragraph 2 sentence 3 about sickness" -- knowing that you have guidance from the pediatrician that it's OK.

I'm guessing that'd be the first "different" move someone would make -- that she would freak out and not want him to go, but you are pretty sure everything is OK.

[ForeverDad]

This would be such a major issue with a high-conflict parent, I wonder if any courts or lawyers are advocating yet on how to handle a struggle "for the safety of the children" regarding COVID-19.

I would guess that the court's first impulse would be to defer to whichever parent is considered the primary parent.  Next would be for the court to determine which household would be safer for the children.

Or maybe the court would say the kids are not at a high risk, then it would be a matter whether seen as actionable if they would bring the virus after exchanges to old or at-risk family members.

Court won't fret about an occasional shooting incident.  It's very unlikely to tell parents which neighborhoods they can and can't live in...

When my marriage was falling apart, soon to implode, my soon-to-be-ex freaked out about abusers and abductors lurking in the bushes anywhere and everywhere.  Never got traction in court.  During one 3 month period where she blocked me from my son, between orders, there was a tornado warning but she wouldn't answer the phone to confirm my preschooler was safe.  My lawyer told me there was nothing to be done, that if I went to court about it that it would think I was crazy, he had more risk from a car accident than from a tornado.  Probably that's similar to how the court would see your ex's demands and objections.

[mpacific]

https://cordellcordell.com/2020/coronavirus-divorce-webinar/

We signed up for this..while she hasn't yet I have no doubt SD's mom will try to keep her on lockdown from us (should our city state a full lockdown short of essentials).  But thought I'd share for those interested.

[Grady]

Thanks everyone. 

H did pick up SS and I bathed him thoroughly/changed his clothes as soon as he got here. I let him play as long as he wanted in the bath.     He doesn't have that cough BPD said he had and would need the nebulizer for.  I'm not surprised.  Not much we can do other than watch him and keep him clean and healthy here.  I have no doubt H will bring him back to BPD on Friday.  Our state still isn't on lockdown although most things are closed.  I guess one good thing is BPD has no car or money to take SS out and about so hopefully at least he will be at his grandparents contained. 

I did speak with H about the stress sickness when he's with BPD and H did agree that could definitely be what is going on over there.  But, unfortunately, there is really no way to prove it.  Even if we could, what does that even mean?  What could we do about it?  H isn't ready to fight BPD more about more custody.  He still isn't strong enough to stand up to her more than he already has. 

I can't really get a straight answer out of SS as he keeps on lying and says he's just pretending.  I can tell BPD has told him to lie to me.  I had a serious talk with him about the difference between lies and pretending (a lie is saying he had a hot dog for dinner when he had pizza and pretending is putting his shirt over his face and saying he's not here).  I honestly don't think he understands.  I think both H and BPD have exposed him to so much lying over his life that he is so confused.  I know it's not SS's fault.  I can't wait until he can finally get his much needed therapy.   

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hey everyone!

To maybe give some perspective on this Covid-19 situation I’m actually in the middle of this scenario...

ExBPDw and I are in the middle of an extremely high conflict divorce. As of now, exBPDw has the majority of custody of our 3 children. ExBPDw and I live in the same village that is very close to Milan, the epicenter of Covid-19 outbreak in Italy. ExBPDw and her lawyer submitted an urgent request last Wednesday to have the judge suspend my custody rights for the next months until the state of emergency is repealed. My lawyer just sent a fax to the judge explaining how their request is based off fears and is unsubstantiated by the current emergency laws. In fact exBPDw is telling the children I have the coronavirus.

We’ll see what the judge decides...

After one year in court things have been slowly but consistently going in my favor and the judge gets who exBPDw really is. In fact judge has told exBPDw that she is likely to give me full custody if exBPDw doesn’t get her stuff together (actually the judge should have already removed them IMO). I don’t know what the judge will decide but I would be shocked to find out that the judge rules to suspend my visiting rights.

I think that the question is trickier than at first glance too. How can a civil court judge really assess the perceived risk of a viral pandemia, let alone base a custody decision on it? I would think that there would need to be some clear and definitive circumstances regarding the risk in the involved case to do so.

It isn’t an easy situation right now...that’s for sure.

The judge will be responding within the next days so I’ll let you know what is decided. It will be interesting to see how others are affected in their cases as well during this Covid situation...definitely a pressure point for people w BPD.

Best regards,
LightAfterTunnel

[kells76]

Hi there LAT;

Thanks for sharing your situation with us. I think it'll be really helpful for folks to consider your "real life" scenario as they work out what's best for the kids.

I hope you stay safe and healthy, and it's great to hear how your case is going. Do keep us posted on developments.

Cheers;

kells76

[Grady]

Thanks for sharing LAT.  Your story will definitely help us all as we are all navigating through new uncharted territory.  I wish you luck in getting to be with your kids.  Please keep us posted.

[ForeverDad]

Your child probably is so young he doesn't realize what competing stories can mean in a high conflict situation.

When my divorce was nearing the final stages she raged about me being in contact with the pediatrician's office.  She had temp custody during the entire divorce process but the school nurse had asked my help when she didn't respond to their calls.  Well, she raged at the pediatrician's staff and the doctor promptly "withdrew services".  She never told me, of course.  I'm sure she realized she made a huge misstep so of course she had to try to make me look much worse than her.  After the next set of exchanges CPS contacted me about an allegation that I had gotten enraged at son and "beat him on his shins".  Even the hospital had in their logs that the bruises on his shins were normal for an active boy like him (climbing all over the exam table/bed).  Next time I saw him he told me that he thought his bruises were from the climbing bars in a local park when with his mother.

This was this first time she had gotten an allegation (started by her typical claiming "My son told me...") supported by our son.  She must have been really motivated in her coaching.  I spoke with my son and realized he didn't know what lying was.  During those early years I felt he was developmentally delayed by all the conflict and discord.  He was in kindergarten, so I looked for a way to VALIDATE what truth and honesty were.  I found an out-of-print Clifford the Big Red Dog book, T-Bone Tells The Truth, and we read it together.  I saw the light bulb go off in his head.

[livednlearned]

I can't really get a straight answer out of SS as he keeps on lying and says he's just pretending.

 

Lying is so powerful, he may recognize it's the best thing he has in his tiny war chest. I don't think he'll give it up easily. He probably lies to biomom and it works, and she's way scarier than you, not to mention he sees adults lying and it works for them. My son was hard to pin down, too, once he began going back and forth between houses. He was 9, so a little older than SS. I don't know if my approach would work with a younger kid, but maybe a version of it might apply?

I had to focus on the long game and put effort into building S9s trust, which was more about paying attention to his emotions than teaching him differences between right/wrong (which is already pretty messed up when there's a BPD family dynamic). Our kids are trying to survive and that's primarily happening on an emotional level. In a normal parenting relationship, there is trust. When there is alienation and BPD pathology, that trust is tested.

Building trust with S9 was about validation, validation, validation. To a degree I didn't even know was possible, I worked to see things from his perspective, which wasn't easy because I was so anxious and worried about the lies and what he would or wouldn't believe, especially with court nuttery going on chronically for 4 years. Building trust was about recognizing that pretty much every interaction he was having involved trauma of some kind, and learning how to make a safe space for him to tell me things, without me reacting or even necessarily parenting him, at least not in that particular moment.

Kids see things in such a different way, and I had to figure out the underlying emotions he was feeling and take the effort to meet him there, even if it just meant, "How did you feel when mom said that?" He had to trust that no matter what he said, I was there emotionally with him, because his dad couldn't be -- it was always about n/BPDx.

In S9's world, telling the truth was scary and dangerous, and lying or pretending was safe, except that it isolated him emotionally.

I think it's why a lot of child therapists do play therapy. They want to figure out what story kids tell themselves about themselves. S9 wanted to be successful at surviving, and lying was a piece of that. I wanted him to be successful at asking caring adults for help and that took a while because he knew he couldn't trust any caring adult. And to be candid, I include myself in that. It wasn't until after the divorce that I realized how my parenting approach left S9 stranded a lot of the time.

I can tell BPD has told him to lie to me.  I had a serious talk with him about the difference between lies and pretending (a lie is saying he had a hot dog for dinner when he had pizza and pretending is putting his shirt over his face and saying he's not here).  I honestly don't think he understands.  I think both H and BPD have exposed him to so much lying over his life that he is so confused.  

He's probably going to be a pleaser/appeaser type given what he's dealing with. He may not understand the difference between lying and pretending because what he's trying to do is please/appease.

With S9, I tried to not react to what he told me, and instead kept putting things back on how he felt. His dad once said, "Can I borrow your baseball bat to beat your mom" . He blurted it out in the frozen food aisle at the supermarket five days after his dad had a psychotic episode while S9 was in the house.

SS probably has similar if not more severe trauma and lying/pretending is a part of surviving those moments.

I wonder how SS would feel if you addressed his lies, when they are obvious. "You feel it's safer to say that, huh? Being honest can be scary. Some people you can be honest with, and some people you can't, because they get mad."

Or something like that. I don't know -- maybe consulting with a child therapist would give some peace of mind about this until therapy begins for SS.

You're doing a great job, Grady.  I admire how much love and attention you're giving this kid and providing some stability and moral guidance. 

[Grady]

Wow LnL, you opened my eyes to a lot with what you just said.  I completely agree with everything. H absolutely has been a pleaser/appeaser most of his life due to his upbringing and I see him doing that with SS all the time.  I even hear our D's teasing him about how he parents.  Last night they were making fun of him parenting SS because it was late and SS still wasn't in bed and SS was completely in control of the situation.  H stopped doing it with me, but I think he still does it with most everyone else.  So, SS definitely see that with him.  But, the fear is definitely huge with SS.  I will try the approach with SS the next time the situation comes up and see how that goes.  I think the anxiety about how someone will react flavors how he handles the situation and probably why he chooses to lie or "pretend".  Poor thing has witnessed way too much in his short life.