Sad eyes. FOG

[Imatter33]

Mom created another facebook acct. Not that surprised, but that acct was not blocked. So i got a friend request and I clicked on it to "look" (And I thought it was a nice picture of my mom.) But I let it linger and all I saw was percieved sadness behind her eyes.

I know her well enough to know the sadness evident there is not from our NC alone. My mom is all in all one of the saddest individuals I know. And not sad in the putdown way. It always sneaks out of her eyes. Does this make sense?

I should not have even looked long.


My guilt was instantaneous. The friend request meant to me..."Hasn't it been long enough?"

I felt the guilt. That bad bad daughter feeling. That "how can I" feeling?

But the difference is I steer this ship. I still had an emotional reaction but I got a hold of it pretty quickly.

Any act of going from NC to LC will be initiated by me.

If I block this new acct it will prevent her from writing me. But I don't know if I want to block this new account or just keep it in pending. The only thing  that will be in my inbox are those sad eyes till then.

This feels like a baby step. I am sad I still feel at  baby step stage.

[pursuingJoy]

It's ok to feel sad, imatter. This is your mom and it's normal to feel sad about the situation and for her. It doesn't necessarily merit a change in course or action, but your emotions merit the attention you're giving them.

Feeling like I'm still in the baby steps stages is a daily thing for me. As far as blocking/no blocking, no need to decide today. You'll know what to do when it's time. You're not only steering the ship, you're doing it on your timetable. 

[zachira]

In my experience, feeling sad instead of angry is a big part of the healing process. To curb my anger and better understand my family members with BPD, I often look at pictures of them, and no matter how hard any of them try to look happy, the sadness always comes out as underlying their attempts to look happy. You are wondering about maybe getting back in contact with your mother. In my experience, family members with BPD use those closest to them, particularly their children, as the dumping grounds for their uncomfortable feelings. Are there some ways you could interact with your mother without ever being alone with her or having direct contact with her?

[Methuen]

So i got a friend request and I clicked on it to "look" (And I thought it was a nice picture of my mom.) But I let it linger and all I saw was percieved sadness behind her eyes.

Self-torture, or self-punishing perhaps?

I get it.  It's not supposed to be like this with our mom's.  We keep wanting it to be different, but it's never going to be.

But the difference is I steer this ship. I still had an emotional reaction but I got a hold of it pretty quickly. 

Good for you!   This sounds like progress to me!

[Imatter33]

In my experience, feeling sad instead of angry is a big part of the healing process. To curb my anger and better understand my family members with BPD, I often look at pictures of them, and no matter how hard any of them try to look happy, the sadness always comes out as underlying their attempts to look happy. You are wondering about maybe getting back in contact with your mother. In my experience, family members with BPD use those closest to them, particularly their children, as the dumping grounds for their uncomfortable feelings. Are there some ways you could interact with your mother without ever being alone with her or having direct contact with her?

I would have never thought about this before.
 Are there ways I could interact with her, without ever being alone with her?
Thanks for the question Zacharia.
I've had it in my head that NC to LC HAS to mean physical contact too.
Wrong.
I revisted SWOE again. One of the questions posed in the "healthy limit setting" page was, "how physically close can you allow others to get?
At what distance do you start to feel anxious and uncomfortable?
Does the BP in your life respect physical limits? (pg 123)

I have been thinking through emotional limits for so long, this was a much needed reminder. There is a physical component to contact again. I can implement what I need the  physical boundary to be, as well as emotional.

I could send her cards, I could email, facebook,
I could choose to not see her physically.
And I am in control of what I need, and what I try when it comes to limits.

I also had the idea that I can choose to send things only and opt out of replies if it feels right to me.

[Methuen]

I also had the idea that I can choose to send things only and opt out of replies if it feels right to me.

Yes yes yes!    I do this too.  I pick and choose what to reply to, as well as when to reply.  I almost never reply "immediately" any more.  Sometimes it's the next day, and occasionally not at all.

Also, I re-read your first post imatter and saw this:

The only thing  that will be in my inbox are those sad eyes till then.

Is it at all possible imatter that you see sadness that someone else looking at the picture might not?

I'm not even sure that is important (just a curious question), but what I am figuring out over time is that perhaps "I" made myself a slave to my mother.  I interpret her actions, her words, her body language, her tone, her mood, everything.  In short, I have become hyper-sensitive to her.  What usually follows is FOG.  I am slowly trying to let go of interpreting her.  Does that make sense?  

How does interpreting those eyes help you or her? Does doing that lead to FOG?

Sometimes I wonder if we "over think" our pwBPD... I am curious about this because since I have begun my "healing journey", I have noticed my H does not do this.  Just thoughts.  Nothing more.

[zachira]

You have hit the nail on the head. We are different from our family members with BPD because we are capable of making conscious respectful flexible choices about how we choose to interact/not interact with our family members with BPD according to what feels right for our wellbeing in the moment and near future. Members often struggle with viewing LC and NC as a forever decision. You have come up with many great ideas on how to have LC contact with your mother that feel safer for you while leaving the door open to continue NC or go NC for different periods of time.

[Imatter33]

Also, I re-read your first post imatter and saw this:
Is it at all possible imatter that you see sadness that someone else looking at the picture might not?

It’s entirely possible! Hard for me to be objective but I get what your saying!

I'm not even sure that is important (just a curious question), but what I am figuring out over time is that perhaps "I" made myself a slave to my mother.  I interpret her actions, her words, her body language, her tone, her mood, everything.  In short, I have become hyper-sensitive to her.  What usually follows is FOG.  I am slowly trying to let go of interpreting her.  Does that make sense?  

It makes so much sense. In essence, I can learn to control hypersensitivity and then in turn handle FOG even better, or even be able to lift myself out of it completely!

How does interpreting those eyes help you or her? Does doing that lead to FOG?

it does not help. It does lead to Fog.

Sometimes I wonder if we "over think" our pwBPD... I am curious about this because since I have begun my "healing journey", I have noticed my H does not do this.  Just thoughts.  Nothing more.

I think I definitely do. It comes from a flawed safety mechanism for me? Like if I can over think and over interpret than I won’t be caught so off guard by her.
This has never proven successful.

On a side note, I’ve been thinking a lot about attachment styles and I have an anxious style. It’s pretty common with children of BPD mothers. I am wondering what work I need to do or if I can change that attachment style. I want to do that not just in this relationship but with a bunch of other ones. Self confidence self-esteem it’s so hard to build up when you are an older adult!

.

You have hit the nail on the head. We are different from our family members with BPD because we are capable of making conscious respectful flexible choices about how we choose to interact/not interact with our family members with BPD according to what feels right for our wellbeing in the moment and near future.

Oh my can I get this on repeat. Yup yup yup.

.

Members often struggle with viewing LC and NC as a forever decision. You have come up with many great ideas on how to have LC contact with your mother that feel safer for you while leaving the door open to continue NC or go NC for different periods of time.

Thanks so much for the continued support.

[Methuen]

Sometimes I wonder if we "over think" our pwBPD... I am curious about this because since I have begun my "healing journey", I have noticed my H does not do this.  Just thoughts.  Nothing more.

...I think I definitely do. It comes from a flawed safety mechanism for me? Like if I can over think and over interpret than I won’t be caught so off guard by her.
This has never proven successful.

Oh I think you are on to something when you speak about your flawed safety mechanism.  Your logic follows for me too, and helps to explain why I have spent my life being a person who anticipates everything that can go wrong with a plan, and then putting a ton of energy into preventing all those scary possibilities from happening, or worrying about them if I can't take action to prevent them.  I was like that in my work life, as well as my personal life.  It drove my kids (and H) crazy because I could imagine things going wrong no one else would ever think of.  For example, our kids are going to be driving 14 and 22 hr to come home from University.  I think most people would be excited their kids are coming home (and I obviously am too), but for most people, excitement is their primary emotion.  I didn't sleep last night as my worry center became over-active. Lots to imagine with my two adult pups driving 14 and 22 hrs to get home right now during Covid right? I tried using my mindfulness skills on my own, but eventually resorted to my app around 5am.  As I was falling asleep, the snake head appeared!  But, I still know I've made progress because whereas the snake would have sent me off the ledge in the past, I plugged back into my app, and was asleep before the session was over!  I have a much better awareness now, and apart from last night, I think I'm doing better at managing the overthinking by "letting those thoughts go" as soon as I recognize them.  It's really hard though, after a lifetime... Just when I think I'm making progress, a night like last night happens.

I appreciate you imatter, and this conversation you started.  I think we're all just trying to find our way through to a better way of "feeling" and "being".

So are you feeling a wee bit stronger yet about exercising more choice on what you click on and don't click on for your mom's facebook posts?  All I can say is it gets easier in my experience.  The first time I didn't reply to a triggering text from my mom, the FOG was so thick it probably made me wet all over.  Now, 6 months later we've both adapted.  I don't get as much crazy stuff from her, and I'm also more aware of "checking myself" from overthinking it (case in point: sad eyes).  If I see a text from her I don't like, I just put the phone away and carry on with whatever I was doing.  I "note" it, and let it "float away", so it's lighter FOG or no FOG. I'm learning slowly.

I hope it gets better for you.

[Imatter33]

Oh I think you are on to something when you speak about your flawed safety mechanism.  Your logic follows for me too, and helps to explain why I have spent my life being a person who anticipates everything that can go wrong with a plan, and then putting a ton of energy into preventing all those scary possibilities from happening, or worrying about them if I can't take action to prevent them.  

When I see your thought process written out Methuen, I see why that could happen for you because of a life of "over anticipating and over interpreting." Oddly enough I think the opposite happened to me. So many attempts over the years to do this (gone wrong) have made me an absolute crap person at planning. I think im connecting some dots though. I am bad at planning because I would spend all my time lost in a black hole trying to interpret the emotional side of "why" and have no energy to spend on me. Alas I had no boundaries, I fried out and NC started. Makes so much sense.

 I have a much better awareness now, and apart from last night, I think I'm doing better at managing the overthinking by "letting those thoughts go" as soon as I recognize them.  It's really hard though, after a lifetime... Just when I think I'm making progress, a night like last night happens.

Good job noticing the old patterns and actively working to change them. Prayers for your kiddos and your sleep

I appreciate you imatter, and this conversation you started.  I think we're all just trying to find our way through to a better way of "feeling" and "being".

 

So are you feeling a wee bit stronger yet about exercising more choice on what you click on and don't click on for your mom's facebook posts?

I still have not accepted the request. But I am not looking at her profile in the meantime . But in the context of not feeling guilty over "sad eyes"  The last time I did look, I did see some things on her public profile that would have made me mad in the past. I flipped that feeling on its head and thought,
This is my mom.
She hasn't changed.
That's okay.
She appears to be safe.

SOME days I feel stronger

Methuen,  her safety and  physical needs being met are all that really matter to me.
The fact that I am NC is where the FOG gets in because I do not assist her in a fiscal way (money)  to meet her needs or a physical (drop them off) way. 

Emotionally I have decided to not open that door again, and I know if I go LC I will battle my own mom/daughter longing. I am a highly emotional person. But I have to keep myself safe, not go there, and also learn to stick up for this new personal limit! Being honest...its just easier to be NC, as I've said before.

 

All I can say is it gets easier in my experience.  The first time I didn't reply to a triggering text from my mom, the FOG was so thick it probably made me wet all over.  Now, 6 months later we've both adapted.  I don't get as much crazy stuff from her, and I'm also more aware of "checking myself" from overthinking it (case in point: sad eyes).  If I see a text from her I don't like, I just put the phone away and carry on with whatever I was doing.  

To do this without my own triggered and emotional response would make me feel like superwoman!

I "note" it, and let it "float away", so it's lighter FOG or no FOG. I'm learning slowly.

This makes me so happy for you! I bet I can get there sometime. Feeling more hopeful these days.
I still am scared, but hope is powerful.

[Methuen]

The last time I did look, I did see some things on her public profile that would have made me mad in the past. I flipped that feeling on its head and thought,
This is my mom.
She hasn't changed.
That's okay.
She appears to be safe.

Good for you imatter!  Way to flip that feeling on it's head, and deal with it with positive thoughts ("that's ok, she appears to be safe"). So healthy and affirming!

her safety and  physical needs being met are all that really matter to me.
The fact that I am NC is where the FOG gets in because I do not assist her in a fiscal way (money)  to meet her needs or a physical (drop them off) way.

I would think that very few people (almost nobody?) assist(s) their parents in a fiscal way.  
Why would she need your financial support?   Does she have a job/savings/retirement fund? Do you feel like you should be assisting her financially?  Perhaps I have misunderstood what you mean?

I know if I go LC I will battle my own mom/daughter longing

Can you describe what you mean by "mom/daughter longing"? Personally, throughout my life, my mom's behavior was my "normal", so I used to believe I always needed to do more for mom to earn her love/acceptance/value as a daughter...since she always made me feel deficient.  Nevertheless, I always wanted to enjoy a happy relationship with my mom...so  I suppose that was a kind of "longing" for me.  Is that what you mean?  I just kept working harder with my mom (rescuing her and catering to her), to have the kind of relationship that I thought other people had, only to have her become more and more abusive.  As my mom and I got older (and after my dad died), and I just kept trying to be the perfect daughter to please her, the two of us together just became oil and water.  She's just impossible.  I became hopeless, and also terrified of her.  She was horrible.  I finally accepted her illness last summer.  I can say truthfully that I feel I no longer "long" for a "normal" relationship with her, because she's simply not capable.  Accepting that has helped me move forward.  

I'm a bit confused about your meaning of "longing", as well as the "fiscal support" piece.  Have you financially supported her in the past?  If so, I'm curious as to what led up to that...if it's ok for me to ask?

[Imatter33]

 
Why would she need your financial support?   Does she have a job/savings/retirement fund? Do you feel like you should be assisting her financially?  

She's financially living below the poverty line. I feel the obligation because it has been that way my entire life. (Grew up poor, and I know she struggles to meet her basic needs.) I feel some FOG about her financial situation only bc its a factor in her life that causes me grief. Sometimes helping her alleviates it for a time. But in writing this out, I see how its never a true fix for the situation. She needs to figure out how to meet even her most basic needs.

Do you ever think if your mother weren't BPD than it would be a no brainer to help them with any issue with not a second thought?

I get lost in the implied  "societal duty to your parents" norm.

It truly is okay that my mother is not the norm.
It truly is okay that my relationship with her is not the norm.
It truly is okay that we are estranged.
It truly is okay that I am breaking norms.


I think I am answering a lot of my own questions in posting tonight. It feels good to have a minute to process!

 
I always wanted to enjoy a happy relationship with my mom...so  I suppose that was a kind of "longing" for me.  Is that what you mean?

(YES) 

 I just kept working harder with my mom (rescuing her and catering to her), to have the kind of relationship that I thought other people had, only to have her become more and more abusive.

I think this has been happening for a long time and I have been blind too it, because I did not want to believe it. And the narrative that other family has of her is that she is just "difficult and needy".

  As my mom and I got older (and after my dad died), and I just kept trying to be the perfect daughter to please her, the two of us together just became oil and water.  She's just impossible.  I became hopeless, and also terrified of her.  She was horrible.  I finally accepted her illness last summer.  I can say truthfully that I feel I no longer "long" for a "normal" relationship with her, because she's simply not capable.  Accepting that has helped me move forward.  

I just don't know how to let go of the hope for a normal relationship.
If and when I grasp that normal is impossible, then do I want a "not normal" relationship ]with her for the sake of having something?

Or do I be honest and say, No. It's easier on me to not want anything bc it hurts too much to have the "not normal" relationship?

I have had normal type moments with her that have kept me like an addict coming back to the circle of abuse. I hate writing abuse out because I feel its too judgemental, but it was emotional abuse, or i would not be on this forum for one thing.

The normal moments.

My wedding was one of them, and it truly was the best day of my life. I did worry in the back of my mind about something happening but it was faint. And somehow my mom pulled through it without incident. I am so grateful.

Man, in my entire life there are maybe a handful of normal moments and I guess I need to be honest about that.

I oscillate between feeling strong  enough to craft a VLC relationship that would keep me safe, but I am still angry enough to stay the hell away from her for good.

I know its not all her fault but the anger is valid.

I did not think my post would be so long. Thank you for listening!

[Methuen]

I am bad at planning because I would spend all my time lost in a black hole trying to interpret the emotional side of "why" and have no energy to spend on me. Alas I had no boundaries, I fried out

I'm going to chip away at this for a bit in an attempt to understand, both what you are saying about your story, but also to figure a few things out for myself.  I hope that's ok.

I'm curious, imatter...in what ways are you "bad at planning"?  Could it be this thing called the "inner critic" saying that?  I'm curious about this planning thing, because I spent my life "over planning" to avoid crises, but you say the opposite happened to you...

So many attempts over the years to do this (gone wrong) have made me an absolute crap person at planning.

 There's a part of me that thinks what you are saying is maybe a better way of coping than my "over-planning" response, because maybe you just "take things as they come" and deal with them if and when they are in front of you?  (Smart.) I on the other hand, imagined every terrible thing that could happen, and developed a "worry/anxiety" response which I mitigated by then putting a ton of energy and time into measures intended to prevent all these terrible things from happening.  It was quite a maladaptive lifestyle on my part (both personal and work).  A lot of wasted time and energy over a lifetime.  

So instead of calling yourself "bad at planning", does it make sense to reframe that thought in a more positive way?  I don't know your situation well enough so I'm going to throw out a couple of ideas (that could be way off base):
- "living in the moment"?
- "taking things as they come"?
- "working on my organizational skills"?

I have a theory that finding a way to phrase things in a more positive light helps us feel better about ourselves, and move forward in our healing...rather than getting "stuck".  Does this make sense?  Could you reframe "bad at planning" in a more positive way?

trying to interpret the emotional side of "why"

Are you talking about the abuse here?  ...like "why" she said/did the things she did which were so hurtful for you?  If that's what you mean, I think I get it.  My mom is 84, has a ton of complex physical issues as well as the BPD, and is frail with a history of falls.  After a bad one (4 fractures in sacrum and pelvis), I doted on her every day for 4-6 weeks (it's a blur).  The abuse escalated until she finally screamed at me that all her pain was my fault (I was across town in my own home when the fall causing her fractures happened). I can't even put my feelings of that time into words, but I get what you say when you write "trying to interpret the emotional side of why".  All I did was nurse and love her and do all her running around when she couldn't, so how could her pain be all my fault?  Who would say that?  Why?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess your mom blames you for all her problems too.  Does that sound about right?

Like you, I definitely "had no time to spend on me" as my life 100% revolved around caring for her.  And as I write this, I discover that as I was nursing her through that, I definitely had no boundaries for "me", so perhaps that is what you meant when you said "alas I had no boundaries"?  Personally, I was so busy trying to meet mom's needs, I ignored my own.  It didn't end well for either of us.

And I fried out too.  NC for a month or two (except for 3 way contacts with doctor and home care supports which I eventually put in place, and she cancelled soon after).  Extremely LC afterwards for a long time.  Still LC now by "my standards", but I suspect what I call LC for me, is probably pretty normal for families without pwBPD.  I've come a long way since then.  I have learned that I need to take the emotions out of my reactions to her.  I'm much more "objective" towards her now, kind of as if she were an acquaintance or just "someone I know", rather than my mother.  With the high level of emotion gone,  my expectations are different.  It has helped me.  The sense of "longing" you referred to, is in my past.  I think I had that for decades, and burned myself out chasing the mythical mother/daughter relationship.  Now, I just accept her for how she is, and meet her where she's at.  But I can't rescue her any more.  It's only a matter of time until she has another fall or other crisis, but I've "let go" of "owning" the responsibility of bad things happening to her.  She gets to make her own choices and live her own life, regardless of what I think of them.  I just live my life, instead of thinking about her.  Now, if I sense that she is dysregulating, I either let her self-soothe, or I say a validating statement and beat a hasty retreat out of there and stay LC.  Avoid the drama trap.  She's still my mother, but I have absolutely "0" expectations that come with that title, and I'm learning how to set boundaries.  It's really hard in the beginning, but I think it gets easier over time as we adjust to the feelings that come with needing to set boundaries.  

She's financially living below the poverty line. I feel the obligation because it has been that way my entire life. (Grew up poor, and I know she struggles to meet her basic needs.) I feel some FOG about her financial situation only bc its a factor in her life that causes me grief. Sometimes helping her alleviates it for a time. But in writing this out, I see how its never a true fix for the situation. She needs to figure out how to meet even her most basic needs.

You've got that right.  She needs to figure out how to meet her basic needs.

If you keep rescuing her, she's going to keep needing more of your help.  It'll be a constant conflict, right?

How old is she?

Can she work? (post Covid)

Is she ok with being below the poverty line?  Is it possible that "you want more for her", but she is OK with what she has?  Possibly not, but I'm just putting the thought out there...

Do you ever think if your mother weren't BPD than it would be a no brainer to help them with any issue with not a second thought?

Huh.  I don't think about this too much now.  I think I used to, but I was way more frustrated back then.  Now, I oscillate between envying my friends who can help their aging parent's without conflict (oh it would be a dream to have a parent like that), and just being happy for them, and saying things like "you are fortunate with your parent!"  

I get lost in the implied  "societal duty to your parents" norm.

Yes.  I think the challenge is to find our way through the weeds of that norm.  Them's high weeds.  Like being lost in an eternal maze.  What helps me is I believe that norm was created without any consideration of BPD.

It truly is okay that my mother is not the norm.
It truly is okay that my relationship with her is not the norm.
It truly is okay that we are estranged.
It truly is okay that I am breaking norms.

Yes yes!

Being an only child to my mom in a small town where everybody knows almost everybody, I feel that norm too.  During Covid, I do her grocery shopping (she lives in her own house).  We have to solve many problems for her, but have learned to let her solve all the ones we deem her capable of on her own.  We solve her computer problems (absolute gong show trying to do it over the phone because she's ADHD (can't listen, follow instructions, or focus), can't hardly see (macular degeneration), can't hear etc.  But if we can't solve her computer problem over the phone, she's going to have to wait to use her computer until the next time we go to town.  My mom hasn't "waited" her whole life.  Most impatient person I know.  
 So boundaries right?  So now she's having to wait.  I'm not running over there at 10pm to solve her computer problem because she likes to play games at 3am.  In short, I am learning to look after my own needs too.  And my own needs include not jumping to her rescue every time she thinks she "needs" something.  Her needs are a black hole that suck me in if I let them (which I have in the past, but no more...).

Boundaries are a must if we are to learn to also look after ourselves.  For you, imatter, NC is a start cs it's a boundary.  Finances is a boundary.  You can't keep bailing her out.  Is there anything you would like to talk about there?

I just don't know how to let go of the hope for a normal relationship.

Maybe it will happen on it's own when it's time?  Maybe it will come with acceptance...?

If and when I grasp that normal is impossible, then do I want a "not normal" relationship ]with her for the sake of having something?

Huh.  What the heck is normal?    Maybe let your own wellness be your guide. Do whatever works for you first.  You have a life to live imatter.  Go find it and live it, the life you want in your eyes.  Maybe it takes some time to figure out what you want.  Experiment to find that out.  Find joy.

Or do I be honest and say, No. It's easier on me to not want anything bc it hurts too much to have the "not normal" relationship?

Hmm.  I think we all have to find our own path to this depending on our own history and experience with our pwBPD, and our own temperaments.  You'll get there.