Calm before the storm, or just lucky?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My high-functioning uBPDw of ~20 years wants a divorce for real this time, and I almost feel guilty for having a profound sense of relief and hope.

Her past threats of divorce seemed to occur immediately after splits or as a preemptive strikes by her perceiving I might abandon her. My dysfunctional response would be to turn both cheeks, do the forgiving, and walk on eggshells to protect the children.

As we approached middle age, we mellowed out chemically and emotionally. I mention this because until you've been there, you won't appreciate how profoundly it can alter your outlook. I also noticed in the past two years (and perhaps she did too) that the marriage had become more toxic for the children than divorce would be.

As a last-ditch effort, I landed an excellent marital therapist who made big progress in just a few sessions. But by about the 10th session, I noticed my wife was becoming increasingly uncomfortable, almost as if feeling trapped. One day, after I had offended her even while walking on eggshells, she split it off and in no uncertain terms closed all doors to staying married.

I was expecting a storm after that, but within a couple of days she mellowed out. But she did not attempt to undo the divorce idea. She really is done this time, and is being as reasonable as I would expect an average mature adult at middle age.

While she did mention alimony during therapy, our talk has been fairly practical about selling the house and finding a place to live (and for her, finding a job). She's talked of 50/50 custody as if it is to be expected.

I may be wrong about this, but I think there's a small bit of her who wants me to repeat my past behavior and try to win her back. But that ship has sailed, and I know this is best for me and my children.

All that to say, I know there will be triggers, so I appreciate advice on how to proceed. I've read the divorce horror stories here and have witnessed a couple in my friends and family, so I know things can turn bad quickly.

My first step will be to consult with a divorce attorney so I know what to expect and how to act.

[misterblister]

My high-functioning uBPDw of ~20 years wants a divorce for real this time, and I almost feel guilty for having a profound sense of relief and hope.

Her past threats of divorce seemed to occur immediately after splits or as a preemptive strikes by her perceiving I might abandon her. My dysfunctional response would be to turn both cheeks, do the forgiving, and walk on eggshells to protect the children.

As we approached middle age, we mellowed out chemically and emotionally. I mention this because until you've been there, you won't appreciate how profoundly it can alter your outlook. I also noticed in the past two years (and perhaps she did too) that the marriage had become more toxic for the children than divorce would be.

As a last-ditch effort, I landed an excellent marital therapist who made big progress in just a few sessions. But by about the 10th session, I noticed my wife was becoming increasingly uncomfortable, almost as if feeling trapped. One day, after I had offended her even while walking on eggshells, she split it off and in no uncertain terms closed all doors to staying married.

I was expecting a storm after that, but within a couple of days she mellowed out. But she did not attempt to undo the divorce idea. She really is done this time, and is being as reasonable as I would expect an average mature adult at middle age.

While she did mention alimony during therapy, our talk has been fairly practical about selling the house and finding a place to live (and for her, finding a job). She's talked of 50/50 custody as if it is to be expected.

I may be wrong about this, but I think there's a small bit of her who wants me to repeat my past behavior and try to win her back. But that ship has sailed, and I know this is best for me and my children.

All that to say, I know there will be triggers, so I appreciate advice on how to proceed. I've read the divorce horror stories here and have witnessed a couple in my friends and family, so I know things can turn bad quickly.

My first step will be to consult with a divorce attorney so I know what to expect and how to act.

[kells76]

Welcome back misterblister 

My first step will be to consult with a divorce attorney so I know what to expect and how to act.

An excellent Step 1. You may already know this, but you can do free or low-cost initial consultations without retaining the lawyer. This could free you up to consult with two or three L's, and then select the one with the best handle on your situation.

...

How old are your kids? How have they been handling the conflict between you and your W? Acting out, school issues, "being good", etc?

[misterblister]

An excellent Step 1. You may already know this, but you can do free or low-cost initial consultations without retaining the lawyer. This could free you up to consult with two or three L's, and then select the one with the best handle on your situation.
...

How old are your kids? How have they been handling the conflict between you and your W? Acting out, school issues, "being good", etc?

Thanks for the ideas. I didn't think about seeing more than one. ;)

Oldest teen is doing exceptionally well and is a realist. Youngest almost teen has had an assortment of issues for most of his life including ones that seem eerily personality disordered. I am very concerned about him, but on the other hand, I expect if the separation remains amicable that he too will benefit from the clearing of the toxic fumes and consistent visitation.

That being said, I am still nervous that my STBX will rebound into a dysfunctional relationship with some guy I cannot trust.

Also, I have continued to see a therapist in order to keep myself healthy and accountable.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.  If you haven't already done so, consider reading Splitting by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger.  It's a good resource on understanding what might happen.  jdc

[ForeverDad]

I cannot agree more with JDC, Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder is an essential must-read even if your divorce does go smoother than most described here.  It encourages consultations with multiple family law attorneys because not all are able to handle our sort of high conflict cases.  You will need an experienced proactive lawyer who has experience with trials, negotiations and all the other stuff that goes beyond the typical "I can file the forms and hold your hands for you" lawyer.

Also, your children are teens or nearly so.  Find out how your county handles parenting schedules for older children.  My county lists a specific expectation that the teens generally want more independence with their peers in school and do better with a "home base" with the primary parent.  That indicates a majority time parenting schedule.  I bet your souse is expecting she will be named primary parent even if she is okay with a 50/50 schedule.  Be prepared to handle that hurdle.

I often speak of the self-sabotaging thinking patterns we reasonably normal but well-intending Nice Guys and Nice Gals generally have.  We think we will look good to the court and associated professionals if we bend over backwards trying to be "super fair" and "super nice".  Sorry, court typically ignores that.  And such appeasing actions can sabotage your efforts to get the best order for your children.  So try to adjust your goal to determine what is best for the kids, override your well-intended fairness impulses.

[dt9000]

Be cautiously optimistic. Things can change quickly. As FD said, beware of the urge to be overly fair and super nice.

When my BPDex and I separated a year ago, things were somewhat smooth and agreeable. She was focused on her new supply and was relatively pleasant to deal with. We had civil discussions about custody, living arrangements and division of assets. Then her new supply left and she went off the rails.

My mistake was that I thought things would continue to go smoothly, and when they didn't I was not prepared.

dt9000

[misterblister]

Sigh. It's hard to hear some of this advice but it rings true. I need to read that book.
 
I have been operating in Nice Guy mode even more this week than last.

She's looking at a job that will leave her less than $12k annually after paying an average rent here, so my impulse is we keep paying the mortgage post-divorce so she and the children get to stay put. Thing is, she's been used to spending $1000+ a month on groceries for years. If she decides she can't pay her portion of the mortgage, my credit plummets and the children have to face a foreclosure crisis.

Obviously my Nice Guy doesn't seem to be looking out for me.

[CoherentMoose]

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.  Unfortunately, you have to plan the best way forward for both you and your spouse with the goal of what is in the best interest of the children and yourself.  In most of the threads I've read in here, the standard advice seems to be providing a safe, stable, and nurturing home half time is better than trying to live full time in a disordered "walking on eggshells" environment.  Getting good legal advice from someone who is familiar with high-conflict people is critical to your success.  Good luck. jdc

[kells76]

Obviously my Nice Guy doesn't seem to be looking out for me.

That's a good insight to have.

I wonder if maybe you've been "conditioned" over the years to try to "manage" things for your W. I.e., the hierarchy was W = #1, then at a distant 2nd the kids, and maybe way down the list if on it at all, you.

Now, things are changing. Putting on your own oxygen mask first in order to help your kids may feel weird and selfish. I want to encourage you that the more you can be healthy and prioritize self care and your kids' wellbeing, the better off they will be. Your W is an adult and has an adult brain that, should she so choose, can problem solve her own situations.

so my impulse is we keep paying the mortgage post-divorce so she and the children get to stay put.

Any reason why you and the children shouldn't stay together?

See how the thinking is different?

I'm no real estate expert, but there are some members here who are good with that stuff. As you continue to talk with lawyers (and us!), it'll be important to find ways to disentangle your finances from your W's finances.

Your instinct is right on -- if you two remain financially wound up together, she will likely make choices that sink you all.

So...

Focus on your kids' well-being through making healthy -- not "caretaking of W" -- choices. Get third-party opinions, such as from a L, about how to disentangle finances (credit cards too!) so that you are not on the hook for whatever choices your W makes. Consider radically altering preconceived notions about "who stays in the house with the kids". There are fewer prejudices against Dad being primary parent than there used to be, though if Dad doesn't assert this, it's less likely to happen.

Like dt9000 mentioned

Be cautiously optimistic. Things can change quickly. As FD said, beware of the urge to be overly fair and super nice.

Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. A good L, peer support (us!), and even a therapist for yourself will help you deal with the mixed feelings you mentioned (guilt, relief, hope...) while making solid long term decisions.

Hang in there;

kells76

[ForeverDad]

Any reason why you and the children shouldn't stay together?

See how the thinking is different?

... Your instinct is right on -- if you two remain financially wound up together, she will likely make choices that sink you all.

Consider radically altering preconceived notions about "who stays in the house with the kids". There are fewer prejudices against Dad being primary parent than there used to be, though if Dad doesn't assert this, it's less likely to happen.

It's hard to break out of the typical dad-gets-the-crumbs mode.  I'll share this moment I had back in 2007:

I had a two year divorce, the last step before the trial was scheduled was a Settlement Conference in my lawyer's conference room.  I recall beforehand, while in my lawyer's office, her lawyer came in, sat down and started talking, just the 3 of us.  One of the things he said was that he himself was divorced and he had alternate weekends (same as what I had during the temporary order).  He suggested that as something to agree with.  I said, "Sure, sounds good to me but I don't think Ms FD wants alternate weekends."   He was quiet after that.

By the way, that was one of the few times in my life where I had a wonderful answer at the right time.  I savored the moment.

[livednlearned]

Not all people with BPD are high conflict people the way Bill Eddy describes (what he calls HCPs).

An HCP has a target (you), recruits negative advocates, is a persuasive blamer, and has some type of personality disorder.

If your wife is generally cooperative and not dangerous, it is possible that the divorce process won't be as high conflict as some of the ones described here. The downside is that the legal system is adversarial and tends to inflame things even in lower conflict divorces.

Unless there is something genuinely motivating her to divorce, your wife is probably not likely to make the first move. I would prepare for a dysregulation if you serve her first, or even if you see a lawyer first and begin to discuss it. Her emotional roller coaster may be in full swing at that point, and you just have to stay on the ground and not get on the ride with her as much as possible.

Do you think the kids would agree to seeing a therapist? That might help inoculate them, especially given how anxious this generation seems to be even without home life troubles.

[misterblister]

This is all fantastic feedback to help me prepare for my first attorney consultation (unfortunately not free). Thank you all.

My thinking is conditioned to assume I will just get the crumbs. That may explain why I hardly even considered keeping the house in my name, which would ease my station and make my children happier during visitation. It could help inspire my eldest son to wish to stay with me instead.

At the risk of being unfair to my STBX, I have long sensed that she really isn't happy being a parent, and has even said as much to one of our children. In the past it seemed like her taking the kids away was about threats and leverage rather than a true desire to be the primary caretaker. Point being, at this stage there may be a bigger opening for me being the primary than my Nice Guy would ever allow me to consider.

I have spoken to my therapist about seeing the kids at some stage, so that has been my plan for quite some time.

As livednlearned mentioned, it does seem my wife is in standby mode with no intention of serving first. She firmly refused to continue pursuing education that would give her a better job, so I sense she is painting herself as a victim before her family. I'm reminded how years ago she would talk about living on welfare with the children as a sort of sacrificial victim of divorce.

My instinct says something will trigger an escalation during this process that would dismantle any Nice Guy efforts I did make.

I need to exorcise the angel demon in me that seeks to sabotage my own happiness every time I see a chance to intervene in someone else's impending unhappiness.

[MeandThee29]

My instinct says something will trigger an escalation during this process that would dismantle any Nice Guy efforts I did make.

I had a superb lawyer who sometimes told me things that a therapist would. He truly got it. Multiple times he told me that the law protects nice people too, and to stop giving up things that were mine legally. I had to learn.

My ex promised he would be fair and kind, and...that lasted for maybe a week or two. When we went over the settlement agreement that my ex wrote to start the negotiations, my lawyer asked, "Why are you negotiating with this terrorist? Let me fight for you!" The process does indeed inflame emotions by its very nature, but there is a difference between a "bumps and bruises" divorce and an "emotional shotgun" divorce.

My lawyer was masterful in every way. It was a very disordered process though and apparently drove BOTH lawyers crazy. When mine finally settled, my lawyer called it a "memorable and unprecedented." Other professionals that were involved at various points said the same.

[livednlearned]

I need to exorcise the angel demon in me that seeks to sabotage my own happiness every time I see a chance to intervene in someone else's impending unhappiness.

Write down what you believe is best for you and the kids. Show it to your lawyer, to your therapist, and keep it with you. If there is mediation, take that in with you.

I gave my therapist permission to talk to my lawyer before mediation. She (my T) was worried I would give away everything and I almost did. My fall back during intense conflict was to be the peacemaker -- the problem with that is it just gives bullies more fuel to keep taking.

Your wife, due to extreme emotional volatility (and probably not a lot of self awareness) won't likely be a rational actor for long. The worst that you've seen doesn't go away with divorce, it just gets an audience. Bad behavior might go dormant for periods but almost guaranteed you will witness professional level stonewalling and obstruction tactics amongst other behaviors that seem to go hand-in-hand with our adversarial legal system.

My ex talked about divorce for years and threatened it often. It was a bluff. A while ago I read emails and other documentation that took place during our split and it is so fascinating to read it with a clear heart almost 10 years later. After I left, he became the sweetest, most tender guy -- so concerned what was happening with his wife. He reached out to my family and close friends and offered to help them help me.

Then, when it became clear we were done, the correspondence became foul and vile, more like the darkest days of our marriage. Except this time, I was free and safe in my own place, starting to get perspective on how much bullying and victimizing he did, and how much I helped him beat me down 

I'm glad you're consulting with a lawyer. Do you have a list of questions for that person? It's a good idea to take notes. You may experience a surge of emotion that makes it hard to focus and remember what's being said, especially if you aren't 100 percent about getting a divorce. It can feel surreal.

[MeandThee29]

Keep in mind too that their relationship with their lawyer may be rocky and even explosive at times, making the process even more difficult for you. My lawyer predicted issues with my ex and his lawyer near the beginning of the process, and I didn't quite get it at the time. He was right though.

Mine commented later that he screened potential clients for disordered thinking, unreasonable expectations, anger issues, a desire for unreasonable control, etc. etc. and turned down many more than he actually agreed to. He laughed and said he'd leave the difficult clients for other lawyers like my ex's!

[misterblister]

Your wife, due to extreme emotional volatility (and probably not a lot of self awareness) won't likely be a rational actor for long. The worst that you've seen doesn't go away with divorce, it just gets an audience. Bad behavior might go dormant for periods but almost guaranteed you will witness professional level stonewalling and obstruction tactics amongst other behaviors that seem to go hand-in-hand with our adversarial legal system.

This is what terrifies me, but I need these reminders in order to convince myself to act in my children's and my own best interests. On the other hand, her amicable behavior now makes this part a lot easier.

I'm glad you're consulting with a lawyer. Do you have a list of questions for that person? It's a good idea to take notes. You may experience a surge of emotion that makes it hard to focus and remember what's being said, especially if you aren't 100 percent about getting a divorce. It can feel surreal.

I am definitely going to write out my questions and take notes. We can't afford many hours of this so I don't anticipate a lot of lawyer time.

I'm sure I'll feel overwhelmed realizing what I'm doing to my kids and how I am undoing the structure that has been my reality for much of my adult life. At least I am at a place where I am convinced I will be happier divorced, even if I'm not convinced that my children will be happier.

[ForeverDad]

I'm sure I'll feel overwhelmed realizing what I'm doing to my kids and how I am undoing the structure that has been my reality for much of my adult life. At least I am at a place where I am convinced I will be happier divorced, even if I'm not convinced that my children will be happier.

Ponder whether this is time to reset your thinking.  The children are used to seeing Mr Fixit, appeasing, acquiescing, repeatedly being criticized.  That's not normal for family life, not a good example long term.  How is the current situation good for them?  If you had your own calm and stable home, wouldn't that be a far better example despite the changes?

[MeandThee29]

I'm sure I'll feel overwhelmed realizing what I'm doing to my kids and how I am undoing the structure that has been my reality for much of my adult life. At least I am at a place where I am convinced I will be happier divorced, even if I'm not convinced that my children will be happier.

It may take awhile, but your children likely will view this positively in the end. Maybe not at first, but give it time. Mine talked very little to me during the separation and through most of the divorce process, and then the floodgates opened. Now I have to cut it off at times so I can go to bed!

FWIW studies of families who divorce due to addiction, mental health issues, etc. etc. show that the children actually do just as well as children from intact families in the long run. There is a benefit for getting away from the problem for them.

[scraps66]

I took a referral from a friend on an attorney.  He was fine for filing the divorce, but his tactic was simply to wait out my stbex since she was not acknowledging the divorce.  That waiting got me kicked out of the marital residence for 15 months and $30,000 in expenses not to mention a divorce that would last longer than the 47 month marriage.  So.  No waiting.

One piece of advice from this forum was to go and sit in the courthouse and watch as many of the family law attorneys as I could.  In retrospect I now see that this might have given me an inkling of the corruption and incompetence at work in my local courthouse.  Lots of favoritism thrown toward the local law firms that contribute to the election campaigns of the judges.  It's bad.

My main lawyer was a woman who had a reputation for being a real "b" to opponents.  What I later learned was that she was a real "b" to her clients too.

Don't skimp on this piece of work.  It can be overwhelming - don't let it stand in the way of moving forward. 

   

[MeandThee29]

I took a referral from a friend on an attorney.  He was fine for filing the divorce, but his tactic was simply to wait out my stbex since she was not acknowledging the divorce.  That waiting got me kicked out of the marital residence for 15 months and $30,000 in expenses not to mention a divorce that would last longer than the 47 month marriage.  So.  No waiting.

One piece of advice from this forum was to go and sit in the courthouse and watch as many of the family law attorneys as I could.  In retrospect I now see that this might have given me an inkling of the corruption and incompetence at work in my local courthouse.  Lots of favoritism thrown toward the local law firms that contribute to the election campaigns of the judges.  It's bad.

My main lawyer was a woman who had a reputation for being a real "b" to opponents.  What I later learned was that she was a real "b" to her clients too.

Don't skimp on this piece of work. 

Oh my, I've heard similar things locally. Lots of horror stories about delays and ugly personalities too. Thankfully I gathered all that and steered clear of quite a few. I heard all kinds of things about my ex's attorney that gave me pause even before my ex picked him. Apparently some aggressive, manipulative ones are just as willing to turn it on their clients as they are in court.

I never did get to watch mine in court, but I asked several attorneys in other areas and people I know in the court system for recommendations, and his name came up multiple times. They said he was aggressive but very likable and good to work with from their perspective.

[misterblister]

Here's a small update.

I saw a lawyer who recommended mediation. Considering my finances, that appears our only option for now.

When I realized I may be able to get out of this marriage with my limbs and children intact, I had an incredible boost of happiness, relief, and calm wash over me. This lasted for more than a solid week. I felt like I had broken the surface of the water after holding my breath for years. I really had no idea I was capable of even feeling that good, and it gave me a taste of how much better a person and father I could be after I am free from this marriage.

My uBPDw appears to be in some kind of passive-aggressive holding game. As far as I know the only thing she has done is look for rentals. Then when she got an unexpected offer on a rental that is half the usual price, she took no action.

I initiate our brief, tense conversations. They seem to indicate she's not putting the children first in terms of what's best for them. My impression is that she's making it harder in order to punish me or make me look worse by making the divorce harder.

At this point I'm becoming concerned that she's not going to cooperate during mediation.

[Panda39]

Keep in mind that not everything has to or does get resolved in Mediation.  Maybe you get custody resolved for example but not finances so you settle custody but go to court regarding your finances.  Mediation does not mean all or nothing it can be somethings  but not others.  Many folks divorcing try Mediation first and finish up in court.  Again a reminder for Mediation don't be the nice guy that gifts everything away.  If you can't come to an agreement then don't give away everything plus the kitchen sink simply to get agreement.  Focus on what you want/need for you and your children.

There have been some really good discussions here regarding Mediation Strategies, should you go that route the members here can share their ideas and experiences.

Panda39

[MeandThee29]

Both attorneys agreed that mediation wasn't a good idea (my ex was too disordered and volatile), but I got a negotiated agreement with the two attorneys negotiating by phone and email. My attorney was far more persistent and positive than I was, but there were some turns in the case that led to getting it done.

Thankfully I had no custody issues, but what should have taken a few months took most of 2019. I'm glad it's over. It was tough emotionally, and I really couldn't afford the level of attorney I chose, but having an expert made a difference.

[livednlearned]

She may sense your happiness and relief, not the emotions she expected you to feel. Not to that degree. Now the divorce switches from what she wants to what she does not want because it enables you to feel feelings she does not experience.

People with BPD in my experience are extraordinarily attuned to micro changes in emotions of significant people in their lives.

[misterblister]

She may sense your happiness and relief, not the emotions she expected you to feel. Not to that degree. Now the divorce switches from what she wants to what she does not want because it enables you to feel feelings she does not experience.

People with BPD in my experience are extraordinarily attuned to micro changes in emotions of significant people in their lives.

You make a good point. She has demonstrated what I would describe as near-psychic emotional insights.

Everything's derailed now that she's lost her job due to COVID-19. She couldn't rent a studio for what she gets in unemployment. She's happy as a clam now. She has not once mentioned divorce to me since I last spoke to her about it, but obviously wants nothing to do with me beyond my paycheck.

I will kick myself in the pants for the rest of my life for not ending this 10+ years ago.

[Sluggo]

MisterBlister, 

I can relate on so many levels what you are feeling.  I was married 18 years with 7 children. 

My ex wanted the kids as a tool of punishment and control.  I let my wife lead the show at the prelim hearing by giving her more custody than what the law granted.  I was devastated.   Nice guys dont win in family court. 

After divorce was finished 3 years after I filed, she ended up giving me kids all custody and legal and physical.  I dont think she liked being a parent either. 

One of my daughters told a social worker after living with me 3 months, that she does not feel like she does not have to walk on eggshells and feel paranoid anymore since she moved in with me full time. 

You cant change the past but you can choose your future. 

[misterblister]

MisterBlister, 

I can relate on so many levels what you are feeling.  I was married 18 years with 7 children. 

My ex wanted the kids as a tool of punishment and control.  I let my wife lead the show at the prelim hearing by giving her more custody than what the law granted.  I was devastated.   Nice guys dont win in family court. 

After divorce was finished 3 years after I filed, she ended up giving me kids all custody and legal and physical.  I dont think she liked being a parent either. 

One of my daughters told a social worker after living with me 3 months, that she does not feel like she does not have to walk on eggshells and feel paranoid anymore since she moved in with me full time. 

You cant change the past but you can choose your future. 

Thank you for sharing that. It gives me hope and it reminds me I do not have it that bad considering some of the stories I hear on this site.

From my present vantage point, the whole nice guy thing has only caused me discouragement and missed opportunities in this life. I hope at some point after the fog clears that I can hear a positive testimony like you heard from your daughter.

[MeandThee29]

Don't beat yourself up for the past. I did a lot of it, and it didn't benefit me at all. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out during separation what I could do to turn it around long-distance short of actually moving where he was. But I knew that I was too weak to demand the changes that would be required to reorient the relationship and that he'd never accept counselling and accountability. I had to draw a line that I knew he'd never accept. And I had to accept that a chapter of life was ending, and it now it was up to me to figure out the rest of the story.

Learning to enjoy the present (yes, even now) with a positive view of the future will take you a long way. It may be a firestorm to get there, but that's the path to peace.