My husband is in jail and i need to start divorce paperwork Part 2

[palynne]

Mod note: this thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343861.0

And it keeps coming. Why oh why was I hoping he would behave at all normally. This morning I found out he is accusing me of draining our bank accounts. It was ridiculously easy for me to forward through the lawyers our accounts and show that I am just paying our normal bills. Still it gets to me and I get tired and sad. Also, his lawyer is not understanding why I don't want to do collaborative. I am wondering if forwarding some articles on divorce and bpd would help or just make me look silly?

[MeandThee29]

And it keeps coming. Why oh why was I hoping he would behave at all normally. This morning I found out he is accusing me of draining our bank accounts. It was ridiculously easy for me to forward through the lawyers our accounts and show that I am just paying our normal bills. Still it gets to me and I get tired and sad. Also, his lawyer is not understanding why I don't want to do collaborative. I am wondering if forwarding some articles on divorce and bpd would help or just make me look silly?

Unfortunately, you may be in for a long haul. It got to the point that my attorney and I expected crazy, so it hurt less when the extremes hit.

If you don't want to do collaboration, don't do it unless you have to. In most areas, you can say no. But you need to be prepared to respond with a draft agreement or something else to edge it towards settlement.

[worriedStepmom]

The good news is that you don't have to convince your H's lawyer of anything.

You don't have to convince your H of anything either.

Your lawyer needs to be on the same page as you, strategy-wise, so if he's questioning you, then you might send information on BPD to him.

I would think it would be enough to say to your lawyer "I don't want to do a collaborative divorce because  ...
a) I am afraid of my soon-to-be-ex after X, Y, and Z.  even now that he's out of the house, he is continuing to emotionally abuse our daughter."  or
b) My STBX does not recognize that his behavior is problematic (e.g., he is continuing to emotionally abuse our D), so I don't trust that he'll agree to the measures needed to keep our children safe." or
c) I don't trust that my STBX will be able to keep his emotions stable long enough to reach an agreement"

[ForeverDad]

Akk, he just had to have something to complain about.  So predictable... and so lame.

I don't recall whether you've mentioned who the breadwinners in the family are?  You?  Spouse?  Both?

If it's only you working then his allegation is ridiculous.  If you work too then of course you have a right to use the family account, especially since paying the bills is a no-brainer.  Even if you don't work the bills still have to get paid.

Technically, both persons on a joint account have equal rights to the funds.  If either of you drained the account out of spite or whatever justification, the odds are no action would be taken except the lawyers would say, "We will address this in the financial reconciliation near the end of the divorce when we figure out how to split the assets and debts."

[Turkish]

Divorce by nature is adversarial. Give nothing to his lawyer, who isn't going to work in your best interest. Maybe this latest unfounded accusation might help his lawyer see that something's a little off with his client, but that's for him to figure out. If it also gets back to your husband that you told his lawyer that he has a personality disorder, that won't go over well.

[Panda39]

Hi palynne,

I'm not sure if anyone has already suggested it but there is a book you might want to check out if you haven't already...

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy 

Hang in there,
Panda39

[palynne]

Well, my kids are the main topic today. They are all having various reactions, most of which are who was my dad? Did he love us, why didn't he ever care about our feelings? Why did he always talk about himself, why did he lie to us? I found a resource for telehealth for my 10 year old, but coping with my feelings and theirs is very hard. I had a massive panic attack last night over Divorce+Covid. Journaled, listened to a guided meditation- got to sleep. One of the weird things is that there is so much space and quiet in my house now. i can really feel how poorly he effected our environment. I am glad even the kids can share their feelings as no one in our house used to be able to without fear of Dad yelling, or lecturing. he was very afraid and angry about any and all criticism. The space and quiet is wonderful, but also weirdly unsettling as I lived with chaos for nearly 20 years. We both work, but this was the first year i worked full-time. To be honest he never wanted me to work and I know that my going back to work this year upset him. He literally told me once- you don't need me now that you have a job. Ugh, so glad to (hopefully)never have those conversations again. I am really wondering how long it will take to de-program my own mind and help the kids find a healthy understanding of their dad. It has to be possible.

[worriedStepmom]

It will take a while to deprogram yourself.

Divorce is hard in the best of circumstances, and you've been traumatized for a very long time, living with someone who is emotionally abusive.  It sounds like you are doing the right things - practicing some self-care for yourself, recognizing your emotional limits, getting help for your 10-year-old.

Do your children understand that dad is mentally ill?

[MeandThee29]

Well, my kids are the main topic today. They are all having various reactions, most of which are who was my dad? Did he love us, why didn't he ever care about our feelings? Why did he always talk about himself, why did he lie to us? I One of the weird things is that there is so much space and quiet in my house now. I am really wondering how long it will take to de-program my own mind and help the kids find a healthy understanding of their dad. It has to be possible.

Yes, been there.

It's been a few years, and mine are in college, but these feeling still bubble up in them at times. He had almost no contact with them in the first six months of separation after moving far away, and I think that cemented it. There had been a lot of mess before that, but cutting them off like that was the final blow. They don't talk to me much about him, but they've talked about those months. If he had chosen to live closer, if he had stayed in counselling, if he had been serious about dealing with the problems, if he knew how traumatic selling the house they grew up in was, etc. etc. I've validated their concerns. Those were not good choices. This is not how things should be. I didn't judge his character, but I agreed that certain things were wrong. That type of thing. About then I also realized that it wasn't my job to fix their relationship with him. I made sure that they knew that they could contact him if they wanted and that I would never interfere with that. I encouraged them to talk to adults they trusted without sharing what they said with me.

And I focused on my relationship with them and was very "present." They especially needed to know that no matter what, I would always love them and that I wasn't going anywhere. The feelings of abandonment that I saw in them faded as they realized that they could rely on me. It was interesting to me that as part of processing their feelings about him, they didn't talk about their childhoods for a long time. Not at all. The discussions were almost always about the present. Now they do some of that, but I don't direct the conversation. It's clear to me that they are still working through it because they still rarely mention him in those memories.

The financials have been difficult, but I've always spoken positively about that. No more family vacations, but look at the wonderful friends and fun times we have hanging out. I've had to get food assistance, but look at how creative we can be with what we have. Consider how we've found our way through difficult times and are thriving in a different chapter of life. That sort of thing.

My healing has been slow but steady. I vent with adult friends who have had tremendous hardships. Some people really don't get it, and that's fine. I'm selective with who I'm really close to, and who I'm not. I let myself grieve hard, at times crying in the shower so my kids don't know. That brought me to the point that I was sad but OK when I signed the agreement and then when the divorce was final. I've accepted that it's going to take awhile to feel OK.

[palynne]

Really appreciate those posts. I am so grateful for this forum. I had a weird discussion with my lawyer who seemed to understand why I didn't want to mediate at first and then seemed to pressure me to do so again yesterday. I had to double down and explain that he can sometimes and for brief periods seem reasonable and then go off the rails. Luckily my STBX emailed my lawyer directly accusing me of preventing kids from contacting him and being unreasonable. Kids don't want contact and I wont' force it is the truth, but he cannot accept this. I think finally my lawyer is starting to see that he is not consistent or rational. Also, found out he did get fired from his job for being intoxicated at work, though he is trying to grieve this with his union. Just feel glad that he is facing some sort of consequence and going to let his nonsense roll off my back when I can. He ran up our credit card to the limit and was trying to pressure me to pay it off through lawyer- this upset me for a couple hours and then I woke-up and remembered our checking is joint and he can pay it off if he wants. He is just trying to get my attention or make me do things for him like the old days. Speaking of Oz I need to remember I am wearing the ruby slippers!

[ForeverDad]

In case you haven't done this already, have your future paychecks deposited to an individual account.  Perhaps even at a different bank, after all, he could schmooze a teller to move your funds from one account to another.

We also mentioned that you could take up to half the funds in a joint account and no professional would fault you for it.  Technically until you file for divorce and a court orders otherwise, you as a spouse are not limited in how much you preserve of joint funds.  So far he hasn't snatched any joint funds and so maybe you're okay using those funds for family expenses and not triggering him more.

The card(s) he ran up, are they joint accounts?  If so, you may have some liability there unless your court rules they are his debts for which he alone is responsible.  Ethically they are his debts but at most you may be held responsible for half of them.

As for him visiting the kids, when you get to court it may frown on you blocking visits or even saying the kids don't want to visit.  (Courts typically default to the kids not having a say in visitation unless there are solid reasons to listen to their concerns.)  So think strategically.  After all, court will order whatever it is inclined to order.  Can you insert another factor into the equation?  How about stating you're getting counselor(s) for the children (or the court can order it) and then the counselors can observe and make recommendations about how visits may occur?  That way the court will be less likely to accept ex's claim he is being unfairly blocked?  Of course any counselors selected need to be experienced and trusted, and definitely not gullible.

[MeandThee29]

Really appreciate those posts. I am so grateful for this forum. I had a weird discussion with my lawyer who seemed to understand why I didn't want to mediate at first and then seemed to pressure me to do so again yesterday.

Every lawyer has their pet ways of handling things and underlying assumptions. They also usually have a lot of cases that they are working at once. Frankly I don't know how they can keep them all straight in their minds.

Mine kept wanting to play the empathy card. I kept telling him not to do that, but  he kept suggesting that. Then one day I realized that as experienced as he was, there were certain aspects of my cause that he didn't quite grasp.  He was very empathetic on top of being excellent at negotiations and litigation, but he just didn't get that an empathetic argument wouldn't work in my case. But that was my job, to point out things like that. After some months, he didn't suggest that sort of approach any more.

[palynne]

Ex is still accusing me of preventing kids from speaking to him and has hired yet a new lawyer (this is his 3rd in as many weeks)but they don't want to see or speak to him at all. Also, he could very well email and they know his email to but again they don't want to communicate. He attacked me in front of them and also tried to attack them and they are afraid of him. He is telling this new lawyer that I am unreasonable and he is afraid of me and all sorts of nonsense. I chose my lawyer because she said she had experience with high conflict and bpd divorce and yet she is still pressing me to make  concessions. There is an attempt now to create a therapeutic visitation where kids see him in a therapists office. I would rather let the order for protection stand and until I take it to court when they reopen. Has anyone done the therapeutic divorce process or have any opinion on this?

[worriedStepmom]

What does your lawyer think the consequences might be if you don't agree to something like therapeutic visitation?  (If you HAVE to agree to visitation, and often, unless the court says otherwise, you might have to, therapeutic visitation is, IMO, the absolute best way to do supervised visitation.  The therapist will likely shut down any verbal or emotional abuse.)

Try not to worry too much about what your ex is telling his lawyer.  The fact that is the third lawyer in as many weeks is a huge waving red flag, and I'm pretty sure his lawyer knows that.  My friend's NPDex tells his lawyer all kinds of crap; the L sees through him.  Sometimes L tries to get NPDex to compromise in some ways for what's best for kids, otherwise, L is just content to take the money and present NPDex's arguments, knowing the judge will see it all as nonsense.

The judge in my friend's case appointed the kids a GAL (guardian ad-litem = their own lawyer), and that has helped.  The kids have someone to talk to about what they want (no contact with dad), and GAL is working for their best interests.

[palynne]

My daughter's therapist just suggested we get the kids' guardians ad litem as well. To top it off he just withdrew $4,000.00 out of checking without warning and my copy of "Splitting" accidentally got forwarded to him and he claims to have not received it, despite the delivery confirmation from post office. Just stupid and frustrating stuff. It's only month one and I am sick of it already- gonna stay the course though. Have a meeting with my lawyer next week to talk strategy now that he finally signed receipt of divorce petition and we could file with the court.

[GaGrl]

I think a GAL to web date for the children is an excellent move. The GAL telling court that the children are scared of their father is going to go MUCH further than anything you can say.

[ForeverDad]

We did alert you that he might raid joint accounts.  (He could do similar by making huge charges to any joint cards.)  Did he drain the checking account?  If not then you have every right to remove a similar amount, at a minimum, to protect it or use for your own needs.  Not that tit for tat is an adult solution, but it at least can't be an impact in a complaint since he's already done that to you.

He's already claimed you've turned the children against him.  Expect him to continue attempting that and therefore ponder ways to document to the court, counselors or possible GAL otherwise so you don't spend precious time with him trying to fool inexperienced or gullible professionals.

[MeandThee29]

He's already claimed you've turned the children against him.  Expect him to continue attempting that and therefore ponder ways to document to the court, counselors or possible GAL otherwise so you don't spend precious time with him trying to fool inexperienced or gullible professionals.

Be very clear in your mind what parental alienation is and is not. It is not alienation if they are free to contact him but choose not to. It is not alienation if you listen to their concerns and support them as individuals without questioning their father's character. It's a tightrope, but you have to keep yourself clean.

If he makes poor choices that lead them to feel abandoned, that's not your problem. That's parental abandonment, not alienation on your part. You are not responsible for his relationship with them.

Three lawyers in a short period of time isn't a good sign. Mine fought a lot with his, and his would rant to mine about quitting but didn't. Mine also was a specialist in high conflict divorces. Nothing seemed to phase him. LOL.

[palynne]

I know it sounds stupid, but I just kept hoping he wouldn't do this stuff, which is ridiculous because he is just so- pardon the phrase- predatory. He didn't drain it but it was significant. I am having a meeting next week with my lawyer and am definitely going to pursue a GAL for the girls. Clearly I need to protect myself as he is capable of anything. I also need to figure out how best to protect our joint assets. We have so many bills that automatically come out of that shared checking account that it may take some time to fix. I only started back to work full-time this year after 15 years home with the girls so I will eventually need to rethink employment. That feels too overwhelming at moment. The sad part is, he does get to me and it would please him to no end. I am having a lot of anxiety and intrusive thoughts again. Every time he does anything like this, I spin out and have trouble relaxing. Does anyone have advice for how to take your mind off the every day petty stuff. Were there distractions or activities that helped the most?

[MeandThee29]

The sad part is, he does get to me and it would please him to no end. I am having a lot of anxiety and intrusive thoughts again. Every time he does anything like this, I spin out and have trouble relaxing. Does anyone have advice for how to take your mind off the every day petty stuff. Were there distractions or activities that helped the most?

I kept a journal and wrote out what happened and what I did. Then I closed it and put it away. I had handled it, and it was done for that round. Even when I had an lawyer visit, I let myself process it and even cried it out on the way home, then when I got home, it was over. I had done what I could, my lawyer was going to handle it. So I was constantly working it, and closing it out.

So by the time I signed, I had emotionally learned to regulate myself better and was ready to enter the next phase. There were the blowups in closeout, but I did the same thing and moved on.

[livednlearned]

palynne, I'm so so sorry you're going through this, it's so awful what we go through in these divorces. Reading what you're experiencing brought back a lot of feelings from my own high-conflict divorce 10 years ago. These early parts when everything is red hot are the worst.  

I chose my lawyer because she said she had experience with high conflict and bpd divorce and yet she is still pressing me to make  concessions. There is an attempt now to create a therapeutic visitation where kids see him in a therapists office. I would rather let the order for protection stand and until I take it to court when they reopen. Has anyone done the therapeutic divorce process or have any opinion on this?

Your lawyer is advocating for you given the knowledge she has of how the system works, and even though it goes against every fiber of your being, it might be wise to at least go with her recommendations to create some kind of contact. There's a reason for why she's suggesting it, especially if she has experience litigating in high-conflict cases. The judge will likely order this kind of stuff if you don't comply and you'll have even less say over how things go down. Once you do comply, document what happens and use that in court if necessary. "The kids cannot do therapeutic visits with their dad because he does x ____ in the sessions. So we propose that the kids do therapy independently until their therapists advises _____." Or something like that.

There is a different timeline for the courts than for us. We already know how bad it is with our spouses, but the courts don't yet know who to believe. Judges are considered the supreme witness to a case, so when you show up in court it's pretty much he-said, she-said until the clock starts ticking and the judge begins to watch who does what, who is difficult, who can't comply with court orders, etc. It's tough in our situations because people assume if there is conflict, it takes two to tango. So we have to do a little footwork to show that we're reasonable, agreeable people who can follow reasonable rules. We are trying to communicate to the court that this is more severe than the usual hot emotions that happen in a divorce, and that one party cannot tone it down even when things begin to settle. The other party -- you -- is solutions-oriented and able to follow basic, reasonable requests.

If it were me, I would pick the lesser painful solution your lawyer is advising. Is it less painful to talk to dad during regularly scheduled and supervised calls, or is it less painful for the kids to have a therapeutically supervised visit.

Both can be documented just in case to demonstrate dad cannot behave in ways that put the kids needs first.

If you decide to have the kids talk to dad, it's ok to tell them, "I know you don't want to talk to dad and I understand. Right now there are a lot of grown ups working with me to stabilize things and make sure everyone is safe. There is a lot of sunlight shining on our situation and we have to let people see how things work in our family, at least for the time being, until they can help make recommendations for what we need to do to continue healing."

Or something like that, in your own words.

One thing I did with my ex was to put the responsibility on him to call regularly between 7-7:30pm on the agreed upon nights. If my son could not make it for any reason, I would text no later than 5 minutes before the call to give ex a heads up.

It was amazing how much conflict a simple arrangement like that created, and that became part of the documentation. Ex could not handle being in a position of calling S9. He wanted me to make the call, he wanted me to make S9 talk to him (while also somehow not being in the room listening). He wanted to text me first to make sure S9 was ready to talk, and if I didn't respond, he wouldn't call. It went on and on.

If you decide to go with calls, you can make things as structured as possible with no loop holes so you are not triangulated into a position of blame. If you decide to go with therapeutic visits, make sure you pick the therapist, or pick three you are willing to work with and then let ex select one. If you need a child therapist to help counsel you on what to say, that's also helpful.

Alternately, a therapeutic visit would introduce an unknown third-party professional who, for all you know, could side with dad and tell the court that you are stopping him from having a relationship with the kids. If you do decide to go that route, select three professionals you know are ethical and in good standing, who have experience with these kinds of cases, and let him pick one. The clerk of court may have a list, and I would also talk to lots of people to see which names keep coming up as good ones. Let him know that if he doesn't pick one by day/date, you will select one.

This stuff is going to settle down and get calmer eventually, but the adversarial part of the legal system will sort of feed off your emotions and stir them up until things start to make sense and you can start trusting the people who are working on your behalf. Use this board like you're doing to think ahead as many moves as possible -- being a couple steps ahead is how most of us make progress. And ask your lawyer, when she makes suggestions you feel are unsafe, what the intention is, because there is probably a trade-off to protect you from some other bad thing she doesn't want to happen to you. It might help if she explains why she's suggesting you make concessions.

People here understand the depth and breadth of your fears. Your lawyer probably does too, although it's sometimes hard to tell until you're deep into the process with them. And when they get off a call with you, they're probably talking to someone who has a very similar situation to yours, before talking to yet another person who could easily post here and understand.

We sometimes have to make awful tradeoffs in the short term in order to gain strategic advantages for the long term.

[MeandThee29]

And sometimes you have to give to get, or you'll never get. I'm being vague here on purpose, but you'll see.

We fought for awhile on something with long-term implications. He wanted a part of it, and I didn't want him to be a part of it. The lawyers talked a lot, so I don't know which one proposed, but his said that if I gave up on something short-term (only a few months), they'd let go of the long-term. It made zero sense, but they got their pound of flesh.

There was another time where he wouldn't move on something financial for me. So it got proposed that I give him something in return. Really a trivial amount on a balance sheet, and his break-even is probably over a decade away after so much negotiation and close-out work to get it via an order. But it's in there.

[ForeverDad]

There's a reason livednlearned twice mentioned having 3 or more counselors (specialists) as options.  Your court may very well like to have both parents involved in selecting counselors, therapists, GALs, custody evaluators, etc.  You know how that would go wih an obstructive and oppositional spouse.   So a good way to preemptively address that is to vet the experts yourself, pick a few who have the best qualifications* and then, if it comes to it, let the ex pick from among your vetted candidates.

* qualifications:  well respected by the court, experienced, have a variety of practical strategies, history of dealing well with high conflict cases, accepts your health insurance network, less likely to be gullible or fooled by a posturing parent, etc.

[MeandThee29]

We sometimes have to make awful tradeoffs in the short term in order to gain strategic advantages for the long term.

And sometimes you have to give to get.

I don't want to provide details, but there were times when negotiations stalled, and I agreed to give up something very small for something very big. And as nuts as it sounds, he agreed. It was like an exchange had to occur, or he wouldn't agree.

[ForeverDad]

However, there is a huge concern for all "newbies"...
Beware of sharing the wrong information (or TMI) with the stbEx.

You have to be very careful what information you share with the other parent.  Why?  Picture this scenario... You tell stbEx you want ABC and to be fair you will gift him DEF.  Knowing his personality, what will he do?  He will take DEF, say you can't have ABC and he also demands XYZ.

Lesson #1 ... limit what you share since you can never be sure which portions he will use against you.  So what is TMI - too much information?  Briefly, it is anything beyond the minimum required by the courts.  That is typically required divorce related information and child related information such as exchange arrangements, children's major health information, etc.  Anything more and you could get drawn into longer conversations, even demands for more than you have to divulge.

Lesson #2 ... Let stbEx believe whatever he wants if it doesn't harm your position for finances, custody or parenting.  It's not your job to correct him or help him.  He's an adult, he's responsible for himself.  Also, you simply can't fix him (or else he would have recovered from his PDs years ago).  And news flash, the courts are not concerned with fixing him either — they deal with people as they are.  Accept that.  Merge that insight into your your own strategies and expectations.

Lesson #3 ... This is not the time to be overly fair or overly nice.  Court expects some level of short term conflict and heightened emotions.  What court doesn't know yet is that the conflict will continue far longer than with relatively normal divorcing parents.  While yes you do want the court to see that you're the problem resolving parent, court doesn't care whether you are appeasing overmuch or gifting him overmuch.  There's a truism that I found here... The parent behaving poorly seldom gets much as consequences and the parent behaving well seldom gets much credit.

Lesson #4 ... It's okay to negotiate with a few cards up your sleeve.  As MeandThee29 noted, our acting-out disordered spouses often are emotionally focused on short sighted matters, often to the point of unfairness and ridiculousness.  You need to be aware of both the short and long term matters.  It's okay to trade a few minor things if you can get concessions on major things.  Of course, you can't tell him that, or else you will weaken or even sabotage your negotiating position.  (That's why you have to be careful what you share, especially your strategies, TMI can sabotage you.)

Courts clearly prefer for the parents to reach their own consensus or settlement with the courts doing the minimum of hand holding and refereeing.  (That's one reason why my court didn't schedule a trial until I was 1.5 years into my divorce process.  Before it got there they tried mediation, court social worker's parenting investigation, in-depth custody evaluation, settlement conference, plus an assortment of continuances.)

Final thought... we encourage our members to get the best (or least bad?) temporary order from the start.  Once even a temp order is in place, it's tough to fix the errors, loose language assumptions and loop holes.  (I had two temp orders and no one fixed them midstream until we had the final decree some two years later.  Even that didn't last for long, but that's another story altogether.)

[palynne]

Thank you , this is so helpful. I think I mentioned he is holding my copy of "splitting" hostage as it accidentally got forwarded to his new address. I will definitely try and find the professionals myself and I can completely see my soon to be ex using whatever info about my wishes he can. A few weeks ago it became clear his mother was pumping me for info about what I wanted- cut that off but regretted telling her anything. I really took a deep breath yesterday and realized I just have to trust my lawyer and the process. I am so used to being vigilant and self reliant. I found a great resource for my 10 year old to get therapy and found a place that does therapeutic visits. I love the advice about what to tell the kids though it is going to be so unpleasant as I am truly dealing with traumatized kids. My 10 year old has been screaming, yelling, beating up her little sister and swearing at me- unpleasant! My two oldest repeatedly tell me they want there dad dead and my 6 year old tells me one day she will marry a nice man unlike me. I am trying to let it roll off my back and know that they need to let it all out now that their dad is not here to suppress their feelings with anger. I am supposed to have a meeting with my lawyer this week about how the case will proceed so hopefully that puts some things at rest. I am especially nervous about his financial moves and how best to protect myself so hopefully she sheds some light on that. I have so deeply appreciated this forum- especially as Covid keeps us fairly isolated. Have reached out to some friends that I had no time to keep up with when I was "managing" my stbx's constant behavior. That has been truly nice. I am trying to remember that at some point, I hope, this will be over- maybe not over but better. And every single day I am reminded about the peace and quiet and healing that is taking place only because he is gone! I still can't seem to allow myself to think about my personal hurt right now, easier for me to focus on tasks and kids.

[ForeverDad]

You can take control of your life more easily than you imagine.  That SPLITTING handbook?  Order another.  Amazon even gives you a choice of paper or digital.  Digital and you can have it in minutes, I'd presume.

When I grew up we had a saying, there's more than one way to skin a cat.  Disclaimer, I'm a cat lover and can't imagine how that saying started, apparently recorded as far back as 1840s-1850s.

I really took a deep breath yesterday and realized I just have to trust my lawyer and the process.

Yes, but you still keep the reins.  Your lawyer gives legal advice, even practical advice, but it's your life, your family.  At the end of the day your lawyer goes home to his/her own family.  Your family is with you 24/7.   Over time you will be able to discern how much trust you can place in your lawyer, the other professionals too.

[MeandThee29]

Yes, but you still keep the reins.  Your lawyer gives legal advice, even practical advice, but it's your life, your family.  At the end of the day your lawyer goes home to his/her own family.  Your family is with you 24/7.   Over time you will be able to discern how much trust you can place in your lawyer, the other professionals too.

I agree. Keep engaged and think through what you're being told. Ask a million questions. Why do you recommend this? What comes after this if we are successful? How did you approach this in similar cases, and did it work?

Mine was a negotiated settlement (no mediation, no court), so there was a lot of back-and-forth where I learned how he did things and came to trust him, and he got my priorities and how my ex approached things. So by the end, we were very much on the same page to the point that I was in a really busy period and told him to take it and run on single issues.

A friend who had mediation commented that she really didn't get to know her lawyer like that. She was happy with him and her settlement, but she and her husband separated and then decided to divorce a few months later and went to mediation a few months after that. The agreement is done, they are just waiting to hit the required separation period before filing uncontested with the agreement. So a few initial meetings to work out strategy, then mediation and signing, and now waiting. Other than mediation, most of it was pretty routine. Also no disordered thinking there. Her ex just didn't want to be married any more. Their kid is heading out to college in the fall.

[livednlearned]

I am especially nervous about his financial moves and how best to protect myself so hopefully she sheds some light on that.

Ask lots of questions.

The financial piece is big.

My attorney did not come out and say, "Take everything" but she implied that if I did, the court would essentially shrug. I could never take everything but I did take half. Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission sort of thing.

A person who is disordered won't and maybe can't do the fair, reasonable thing so sometimes we have to make sure we have leverage when it comes to finances.

The financial affidavit was alarming, too. We attributed Craig's List values to our furnishings, and on some financial matters it was shocking how cavalier the attorneys were, discussing $10,000 here and there as though it was nothing.

Everything you do, make sure there is a consequence for non-compliance, where possible. Anticipate that your ex will stonewall and obstruct and then thing through a decision tree with a consequence that allows you to move forward without having to return to court.

Judges will give an obstructor many many bites of the apple, meanwhile you foot the bill.

It took me a while, but eventually I realized that if there were reasonable consequences for non-compliance, I didn't need to go back to court. I could simply act on the order. If for some reason we did end up back in court, which happened too many times to count, it was along the lines of, "It says here in the order that you agree to _____, Mr. n/BPDx. So do that." Rather than, "Let's see, it's not clear, and I don't have the time to figure out what's going on, and there are bigger matters on the docket so let's just say split things down the middle and see if doing more of the same thing will work. Next."

Your attorney and his attorney will also have this courtesy dance about who writes up the orders. It will cost you more money to have your attorney to write them up, but insist that she offers to do it. The way things work is that there is a stream of paper as motions are filed and words are finalized. And then there is a court appearance where the judge says ok. In between those two things, someone is writing things up.

If (when?) your ex violates a court order, there will be a motion filed, then there may be a hearing to air whatever the beef is, then the judge rules. Then the attorneys go back to their offices and one of them writes up the order. Then both attorneys go back before the judge and say, "This is what you said. What do you think."

That's the piece of paper that becomes the order. I would have my attorney add reasonable consequences at that point. For example, if your ex is supposed to get his name off the title of your car, a consequence for not complying by day/date (always have dates) might be that if the matter is not resolved on those dates and you have to go back to court, he pays your court costs.

If he does not select one therapist from your list of three, then you will select.

If he does not complete anger management classes by day/date then visitation will be reduced to _______.

Just some examples of what consequences can look like. The point is that you do not set up scenarios where the judge is always deciding what to do when your ex obstructs or stonewalls -- that stuff is predictable for us so we can anticipate the ways in which consequences can work for us.

[MeandThee29]

Yes, make sure that you understand the financial part. "Divorce and Your Money" on YouTube is good. When I went to my first face-to-face, he gave me a thick folder of handouts including some from a certified divorce financial analyst (CFDA) that he worked with. I had read the state guidance on alimony, but needed him to interpret it in terms of my actual case and how the local judges rule.

I'll also point out that the whole thing can get more disordered as time goes on. My attorney acted unphased the whole way but said at signing that it was one of the most unusual and frustrating negotiated settlements he had ever had, especially in the last months. He said that if he was the book-writing type, my case would be in there. But no worries, he had other interests. Oh, thanks...