Wife and D14 went against covid restrictions and took my Mom out in town

[formflier]

And attempted to hide it from me.

My Mom is 81.  Average health for an 81 year old. 

In our state age 65 and over are directed to stay at home "as much as possible" (direct quote from governor, we listened as a family and discussed afterwards)

My Mom has been resistant to staying in but finally calmed things down and she has been "in" for a couple of weeks.

Today my wife took my daughter to horse barn.  Apparently told her if she couldn't get in contact with her to call my Mom that it was OK.  (details of exact words are sketchy)  Bottom line both agree that FFw gave S14 permission to go against what the governor published and I directed our family to follow and all at the dinner table agreed to follow.

S14 now says she doesn't recall any such conversation and "kinda" remembers the governor saying something.

FFw says she didn't do anything wrong, misquoted what the governor said and blamed me for not informing her better. (typical)

I'm going to get as much sleep as I can before I have family meetings with kids tomorrow (likely separately), memorialize those meetings in writing so there is no more "forgetting".

I had a brief conversation with P today and she helped me work through initial talks this evening.

I'm very angry at my wife.  There have been many turning points in our relationship that I can point to where boundaries changed and from that "turning point" forward our relationship was different.

I suspect that I'll look back on this event as one of those turning points.

I can't imagine ever giving my wife "the benefit of the doubt" again.   

I see no ability in her to take any ownership whatsoever in sabotaging efforts to keep my Mom safe.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I am struggling with some of the same pressures. My mom is 93 and must get out for several mandatory medical appointments. She resists the masks and is frankly out of touch on the level of restrictions I am holding us to.

My husband is mud-!feel observant -- he was thrilled to get a haircut this week and resists wearing a mask.

If anyone wants anything out of me, the state guidelines apply. If you want me to drive you to an appointment, here are the rules...

If someone in the family goes behind my back...yes, I see it as a betrayal.

[formflier]

Things are turning nasty here fast.

I was asleep (not sleeping well), my wife (who was still up bathing) apparently let the dog loose in our room and the dog came over to the bed and started barking waking me up.

I called out to my wife in the master bath to please do something with the dog I really needed to sleep...no response.

I asked my wife to please verbally respond to me ..silence.

I undid all my sleeping gear so I could get out of bed and I walked to the door to and asked her for help understanding the lack of verbal response and she said "You heard me let the water out of the tub (apparently she was in there soaking) so that was my response."

I left the room knowing there was little I could say or do to make the situation better.  I heard cackling (not an exaggeration...) while she was still in the bathroom and then she dramatically grabbed the dog and walked out of the room.

Apparently to spend the night somewhere else.  No idea where she slept last night either.

This really sucks..I doubt I'm going to get much sleep tonight..

Sigh..

Best,

FF

[formflier]

My husband is mud-!feel observant -- he was thrilled to get a haircut this week and resists wearing a mask.

Let's assume that your husband then went out with your Mom and it would kinda make sense if he didn't try to help hold her to standards, because he doesn't himself.

How would you look at it differently if your husband was "tighter" than you on masks and "rules" about going out.  Then let's add in that he was stricter on his own parents about them going out and had bent over backwards so they didn't have to go out and he had threatened his parents that if they went out he would withhold grandkids...etc etc.

Ok...you get the picture.  FFw is way stricter on all these rules as they apply to her, her parents etc etc.

Then...when it comes to my Mom..completely different character.

Sigh.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

It's intersting that these new situations have been additional flash points for drama.

We are basically dealing with unknowns and weighing risks. I think that's unsettling for everyone. We like a sense of certainty, and we don't have that at the moment.

The mask might help some, but not entirely.
Social distancing helps, but it's not a good choice for a very long time and people need to get out for food, appointments and so on. Deciding what to go out for is also managing risks.

This is like the "perfect" storm for disordered thinking. If one can't handle uncertainty, it would make sense they go to one side or the other. Take all risks or none. If pwBPD lean to impulsiveness/risk taking, then that's the side they might go to.

Maybe they would take a risk but not consider the impact of their behavior on others.

FF with your wife, I think it's more of the same. She has a pattern of not sticking to agreements. But it's hard to know if what she did was deliberate or impulsive.

I also believe that we interpret things differently.  Some of us are more likely to cooperate with authorities or rules than others.

I know you are angry now FF, and need to take care of yourself. I'm not excusing the crazy behaviors but not surprised to see more of it during such a stressful and uncertain time.

[formflier]

I'm not surprised either...well, I'm surprised but I can intellectually understand that I shouldn't be surprised.  (how's that for word salad)

Thanks for mentioning the deliberate/impulsive angle.

I need to resist letting my thinking gravitate to (attribute) my wife's actions (or lack of planning) to deliberate thought.

OK...you guys likely have an opinion of how my wife "works"..right?

Are the preponderance of my wife's dysfunctional actions deliberate or impulsive?  I know what I would say and I'll let you guys "vote" before I reveal mine..but...I pretty much think I know where everyone will come down.

Still...the thoughtful "sentinel" in FF wonders if it really matters "why" she did it...if Mom catches Covid? 

I'm thoughtful enough  and I've been in the "risk management" world long enough to realize t he chances of that from this one trip are low.  Our county is still on the lower end of infections in our state although the trendline in this county is going up "faster" than any other county, although that appears to be skewed by one meat packing plant where "everyone" got it.

Part of what worries me is "what if" one of these dysfunctional things my wife does results in actual long term harm or death.  I kinda have a sense of what types of things I can overcome and I can't imagine being able to overcome such a thing.

Again...Notwendy, thanks for raising the issue of deliberate and impulse, it helped me re-frame my thinking...

I appreciate all of you guys being here..

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I see it as a function on the victim/drama triangle. One can play the multiple roles with oneself- and I think at times pwBPD do that. They are their own persecutor, being overly self critical, see themselves as victims, and also "rescue" themselves with impulsive things like spending money or cheating or drinking...


It goes like this: wife is feeling upset at something, maybe she's being self critical or just overwhelmed by the situation. Sees herself as some kind of victim of whatever your agreement is- over money, Covid. Rescues herself by spending, or breaking the agreement " why should I listen to him".

Once over, I think there might be some sense of shame. Maybe that's why she's in the other bedroom. Self shame can also feel like anger to them. Recall, they project.

While you feel this is personal, and have genuine concerns "how could she endanger my mother?". I think this kind of thing is self driven and impulsive in the sense that she's so focused on her own discomfort, she's not considering other aspects, like the health of your mother in this decision.

[Cat Familiar]

My husband fortunately is taking precautions with mask, gloves, sanitizing all the mail we receive, even though we have no active cases in the county.

That said, he is compelled to go to the post office daily. (We have a P.O. Box.) I’d probably go twice a week if I were doing that particular task.

I think it’s hard for pwBPD to feel so many restrictions on their day to day lives.

I get why you’re upset, FF, if she has a different criteria for her own parents’ safety. But it’s possible she would have suspended the rules with them on a whim too.

It’s not OK behavior, particularly after making an agreement. But, as it’s been pointed out before, she’s not good with keeping agreements.

[zachira]

I think those of us who deeply care about the wellbeing of others are all struggling with people who don't seem to care if they infect and kill others. I can't imagine how angry and sad you are over having your wife not care about the safety and life of your daughter and mother.
Last night, I was out walking and saw an elderly woman with a mask on who seemed to be upset. Keeping the social distancing and hearing a New York accent, I asked her if she was from New York City. She said she was and was so upset with the people not protecting others, that her brother in New York city had died from Covid19 and she could not believe that these people not following the guidelines did not care if they killed other people.

[Fian]

For a different perspective, I am not personally that worried about COVID-19.  I am not over 65, but I do have a weakened immune system, so I am at a higher risk than general population.  My take is that there are things that we can control, and there are things that we can't.  This is in the can't category.  As such, I leave it up to God on whether I am to remain on this earth longer or not.  I am not responsible for infecting others with a cold, flu, or other highly infectious diseases like COVID-19 unless I am aware that I am sick and still go out and spread it.  If another high risk adult chooses to meet with me, or go out with me, they have made the choice to take on the risk, and if they get sick, the responsibility falls on them, not me.

I should also note that the way that society has dealt with such diseases in the past is through herd immunity.  Current approach to keep everyone at home for months on end is not sustainable, and we are likely years away from a vaccine, and who knows when it comes to significantly better treatments.  We will get herd immunity before a vaccine is developed.  As such, I see extreme efforts to avoid getting the virus as counter productive, as you only get herd immunity when a large portion of the population has been exposed.

I write this not to say that your wife is right, but to help you understand another perspective.  For those acting out of fear right now, the words above are anathema, however it is not a nonsensical position, shared by many others.

[formflier]

Fian,

Not arguing with you, but asking you how you work through that we "know" that many people (perhaps most) have this disease and show no symptoms or don't show symptoms for a long time.

I would understand your stance if it was one of the earlier SARS viruses (I think I'm using right term) where people were not contagious until "symptomatic".

My understanding is one of the particular issues with this virus is the long period of highly infectious state where people simply have no idea they are spreading it.

Therefore...to me, it seems like the reasonable approach is to assume you are spreading it and others and take precautions.

I do agree it's not sustainable and I don't think we plan to sustain it.  It appears to me is the plan is to "retreat for a bit" and gather resources and then "open up and fight it".

Again...not saying you are wrong/right, just wanting to understand how you work through that particular nuance of this virus.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

There are a lot of nuances and complications. Stay at home isn’t sustainable, no.

My H and I had this discussion yesterday about a venue wanting to go ahead with a concert. H said, “If people want to go and they get it, that’s on them. Their choice.” What I said was that, in this situation, it’s not that simple. Say people decide to go. They get it. It spreads faster. The local health care is overwhelmed. There aren’t enough ventilators. People’s parents/grandparents/spouses/siblings die. It’s a very tricky balance here: individual rights v. common good.

On a more personal note, my 89-year-old grandmother was still going to the store not long after it all started. Her attitude was “I’m ready to go. Does it matter?” My dad (a doctor) explained what this illness could be like — what she could feel and go through. Call it “scared straight” for seniors. You can bet she’s complying fully now.

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, herd immunity is desirable. However what isn't desirable is having our healthcare systems overrun by the sick and dying and in the process of doing so, losing doctors and nurses to the pandemic.

People who otherwise need healthcare from heart attacks, strokes, cancer are dying needless deaths in those areas where healthcare systems are overwhelmed.

And no, there's evidence that cities that isolated during the 1918 pandemic fared far better than those who didn't.

[formflier]

And no, there's evidence that cities that isolated during the 1918 pandemic fared far better than those who didn't.

I've looked at many of those stories and tried to listen carefully.  It seems to be true/accurate that the amount of infection/death was dramatically lower...not nuance but dramatically lower...where an effort at distancing was made.

Seems like I read a story about a city that had a parade compared to one that cancelled it. 

Cancelled city had room to spare in hospitals and literally the other city was looking for places to put people because they overflowed.

Only difference was the parade.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

We are truly dealing with an unknown and it may not behave like 1918. For one, we have some better treatments and sanitation than in 1918, but still, it's a different virus.

We have learned some things along the way.

One is that symptoms can vary and someone can be contagious without symptoms, so the "staying home" only when sick doesn't work this way.

Since we don't know who is contagious or not, there are "universal" precautions in place: social distancing and masks for everyone, not just people with symptoms.

We know that some people are at higher risk than others for various factors but this also isn't the case for everyone, so we don't know how someone else will respond to the virus.

Even if a person isn't concerned about their own personal risk, they need to consider not putting someone else at higher risk. I agree that God basically decides how long someone stays on Earth, but we also have a responsibility towards our fellow humans to not cause them harm.

I also agree that staying shut down is not sustainable and has other unwanted and harmful effects emotionally, survival wise- not being able to pay for food and shelter. We do need to open up- so I don't think it's too much to ask people to wear masks while we do, if it helps even a little. Herd immunity would be an ideal goal but not all at once with a limited hospital system. I also agree that acting in fear isn't a good thing, but I think we are being asked to act with caution, not fear.

I think there's a psychological benefit to the mask in terms of security, and also now social expectations. Now politics are in the mix too and oh boy what a mess.  So ultimately, I won't argue with steps that increase anyone's comfort during these unsettling times. I also think we can expect that people with disordered thinking are going to have more of it, so maybe we need to not be as reactive to them at this time.

FF, I think this is more about your wife's stress levels than you, and your mother needs to hold her own boundaries about how much risk she wants to take. It's also a balance with older at risk people too. Loneliness isn't good for them. They will eventually need to have a safe way to see their family and friends too.

It's hard to know what's right when we don't know much yet. At best, it's a balance of risks.

[formflier]

As I'm working through all this today, I find out my Mom went out and about town.

We had a chat about it and she flatly said (normal and rational tone of voice) that she watched the news and the problem is it's a bad allergy season, that's what people are focused on now.

Implying there is no reason she can't go out and about because of virus...it's really allergy.

I asked her directly if she believed she was putting herself at increased exposure of getting covid by going out in town

She responded "no..there is no increased risk of exposure by going out in town, who are those crazy doctors you have been listening to."  (she said this in a normal...regulated tone)

My Mom can make her own decisions, I need to calmly lay out her options tonight. 

If she doesn't care about herself, perhaps she will think differently about her oldest grandcohild (my daughter).  She has been living with us and not with her husband because her husbands job has high public contact.

My oldest daughter has had lifelong asthma issues and  "normal" lung infections really knock her down, she takes quite a bit longer than the rest of our kids to recover.

After consulting with her doc and having family meeting she decided to move in with us and continue her studies online and one of the many reasons we hold so tightly to these standards (only my wife and I go out and have strict mask, sanitizer and hand washing routines) is to protect our oldest daughter.

I don't want to cut my Mom off from visits with grandkids, but I simply can't have kids going over there and being around someone who is "flipping the bird" at sanitation and medical direction.

Not sure exactly how I'm going to present this/handle this...but I can't ignore it.

This really sucks..

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

That does suck, FF. I’m so sorry.

If my grandmother hadn’t been willing to listen to my dad, I can imagine the anxiety and frustration.

In my job, I deal with a lot of people who have fallen victim to scams. So many are older people who will not listen to their children or grandchildren about it and end up losing a lot of money. Nowhere near as urgent as life and death but still so difficult to watch.

[Cat Familiar]

I can guess what TV network your mother has been watching.    Maybe you can sit down with her and watch something educational about the pandemic.

It's time to put politics aside and realize that we are all at risk. Some communities haven't been impacted hard by this virus yet and people are cavalier.

In areas where there's been a lot of deaths, people are complying with the restrictions.

Here's a 7 minute YouTube video that explains why Covid 19 is so contagious. Watch this with Mom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXfb2okvzds

[Harri]

Not sure exactly how I'm going to present this/handle this...but I can't ignore it.

Yes, it does suck.  I am sorry she is making that choice.

Sounds like it might be time for natural consequences:  no in person visits.

Hang in there.  

[Cat Familiar]

Bad pun I found in the comments to that video: The fast spread of covid19 depends on 1) how dense the population is and 2) how dense the population is.

[GaGrl]

Seems like I read a story about a city that had a parade compared to one that cancelled it. 

Cancelled city had room to spare in hospitals and literally the other city was looking for places to put people because they overflowed.

Only difference was the parade.

Yes, which is why I expect my city to cancel Mardi Gras next February. Our season is not as large as the New Orleans festivities, but we are pretty packed in along the parade routes.

[Notwendy]

I am reminded of what social services told me when my father was ill and my parents were making decisions that worried me.


" your father is legally competent to make his own bad decisions".

Basically, my parents were still acting within the law. They could both pass a mental competency test. Legally, there was no way to intervene.

If your mom is acting within the law, even if she's taking on risk, there's not much you can do to stop her. But just like what we say here- you can only control yourself, and your oldest can come back and live with you.

I also think it would be unecessary  for your mother to be isolated from her grandchildren, but there are ways. The weather is nice now. An outdoor meeting with social distancing could work for a visit. Have cookies with grandma in the backyard. She has her own plate of cookies, you have yours. Make this contingent on her following the rules too- if she won't social distance from you all during visits, you won't visit. I think she will comply.

[Fian]

I do support temporary shutdowns when hospital systems are near overload.  The only place that was a concern was New York, and even they did not use the extra facilities that were setup.  Anyway, if a county came out and said, we are at 90% capacity, and at current trends expect to exceed our capacity in 1-2 weeks, we are doing a shutdown for 2 weeks to let the hospital system catch up, I would find that to be a reasonable response.  Yet, shutdowns are being done with no consideration of the current hospital situation.  The problem with doing a shutdown early is, you prevent the majority of the population from being exposed, there is no herd immunity, and the population remains very vulnerable to having a hospital overrunning flare up in the future, so you have to shut things down again.

Yes, the virus is very infectious and remains symptomless for quite some time, allowing it to infect more people.  So why do you think you can control it?  We are mortal, and live in a world where lots of things out there are trying to kill us.  It sucks, but that is reality.  2.8 million people die in the US every year, and right now the body count of this disease is 85k.  All in, we can probably expect for total US deaths before it has run its course to be less than 500k, which isn't a great increase over our normal death rate.  Past generations have had to deal with small pox, TB, polio, etc.  You want to talk about nasty diseases, take a look at those.  And those generations didn't close up shop and hide in their homes.  They kept going to work, and dealt with things the best that they can.  Yet today, we have a little bit of knowledge and convinced ourselves that we can beat the disease.  Yet, best estimates say 18 months for a vaccine (real answer can be sooner or never).  We will probably achieve herd immunity by then.

Incidentally, the real danger of the virus isn't the death rate, it is the fear and overreaction.  Economics are lives.  When country's have less money, there is less money for healthcare (both private and government).  When governments collapse, you get anarchy.  Suffering populaces are prone to insurrection and war.  The economic death rate from this could easily be tens of millions.

[Harri]

An outdoor meeting with social distancing could work for a visit.

This is an excellent idea!  My elderly neighbor does this with her daughter and it works great for the both of them.  M stays on her balcony and her daughter and boyfriend bring lawn chairs and food.

   good suggestion!

[formflier]

So why do you think you can control it?  

I'm reluctant to agree with the word "control", but for the sake of discussion let's go with it.

Answer:  Because we can.

Certainly we will learn a lot from this pandemic and the knowledge we gain will help for the next one.  Let's hope it's not for another 50 years or more.

I would be interested in a legitimate study to look at past pandemics and do a "what if" they had shut down and somehow cut death rates in half (lets say).

What would that have "cost" and how would that have played out over history.  I realize there would be a lot of assumptions there but I think we can gain wisdom from such a thing.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

We don't know if herd immunity is even possible without a vaccine, because we don't yet know if people who have had Covid 19 become immune to it, and if they do, how long that immunity lasts.

I also agree with the idea of visits that include social distancing. Perhaps if you have a talk with your mom and lay out your concerns as well as what boundaries you need to set in order to protect your daughter, she will listen.

Can I ask why your wife told your D14 to call your mom as a backup if she couldn't get in touch with FFw? Why wouldn't she have called you or an older sibling?

[Fian]

I don't think you are understanding.  The way that a community moves on from an infectious disease that is spread through casual contact is through herd immunity.  Shutdowns and social distancing only slows that process down, but until the disease has infected enough people, it just remains.  Magical thinking is that we can develop a vaccine before that happens, but as mentioned, that is a huge gamble, where the odds are stacked against it.

Without the panic and government overreaction, this would only have been a road bump on society.  But with the panic, the economic damage will be deep and long lasting.

[Cat Familiar]

There may not be such as thing as "herd immunity" for Covid 19. We don't know if people who've had it can't get it again.

In the example of Dengue Fever, if you've had it once, the second time you get it is far worse.

And the common cold is a coronavirus. Certainly having a cold once doesn't give you immunity from catching another cold.

There's a lot we simply do not know.

In addition to that, recovering from Covid 19 has a lot of risk factors. Many people have diminished kidney function, compromised respiratory systems, and heart damage. So it's not a simple thing to have people get exposed, survive, and then be immune.

There are cases where people who've recovered and tested negative have developed it again. We don't know why.

[Cat Familiar]

And there may never be a vaccine for Covid 19. We don't have a vaccine for the common cold. I'm sure people have tried to develop one.

[formflier]

Can I ask why your wife told your D14 to call your mom as a backup if she couldn't get in touch with FFw? Why wouldn't she have called you or an older sibling?

I was low on sleep after last night and wanted to build some goodwill, so I told my wife this morning "Just so you know.  My plan is focus on having a good relationship with you today and getting good sleep tonight.  With that, we can have more conversation about covid tomorrow and hopefully it will look differently for both of us.  Just so you know."

She didn't really agree or disagree but relaxed a bunch and we've had a good day.

I'm not on top of my game...and then a few hours later my Mom pulls her stuff...sigh.

So..yes I'm curious how this all came together.

Best,

FF