Is He Gone Forever?

[NoliTimere]

It’s been a while since I last posted here.  Forgive the long post, I need advice, because I just can’t understand what happened or what I did wrong and I know that people on this messaging board understand the situation better than others.

I know that BPD is a really difficult condition, but I thought we were on the right track. Is there a chance he will come back? What is the healthiest way to approach this situation? I miss him terribly but don’t want to keep getting hurt.

My partner (diagnosed with BPD last summer) and I broke up in December. We had already broken up once before and he came back and wanted to give it another chance. I agreed on the condition that he sought therapy, which resulted in his diagnosis.

It was a stormy summer. He was battling with a lot of difficult things coming up in his therapy, but he was more open and vulnerable with me. It was clear he was being triggered, and that he was struggling with extreme anxiety around intimacy and fears of engulfment. I had also asked him to commit. We were long distancing and I wanted to live together, we’d decided to give it to the end of the summer to make a plan.

He came to see me in July and was in a very raw place: strong emotions – circling between anger, vulnerability, anxiety, and love and care – but was telling me things about his past that I had never known before. It was difficult, but I felt like we were finally close and open and that he was facing his demons and we could build from there. When he went home he leapt into a new all-consuming career, which came as a surprise and was extremely difficult for me. I thought we’d made progress and were working on something together? These new plans didn’t seem to include me at all, but I was happy to see him so excited and energised.

I went to visit him and things felt reassuring and exciting (we spoke about marriage and the future, but no firm plans) but it was like he had swept all the conversations we had in July under the carpet. He no longer thought he had BPD. This worried me. He then threw himself so completely into this new job that he started disappearing. I called him out and it resulted in a fight and after that he cycled between deep concern I would leave him and at the same time hiding from me (not calling me, not answering messages, refusing to make any plans for when to see each other).

I stated my boundaries and what I needed, but it didn’t help and there was no choice but to break up. He simply couldn’t be there for me. He kept saying it couldn’t work.

I went no contact for a month. Then we started messaging a little now and then during big events (maybe once or twice a month). It felt manageable. In March (4 months after breakup), I checked in with him – my dad was sick and we caught up. We had a long phone call. It was really nice. We started messaging more. Then he sent a text saying he was worried we would end up getting hurt and didn’t want either of us to lead one another on and that he was in a good place right now. I said that’s absolutely fine, I am also in a good place. I knew there was a risk that he simply wasn’t ready, or was protecting himself or genuinely wasn’t interested, but I also felt he was somewhat projecting his anxieties onto me (that I would get hurt) and I knew what I wanted right then, so felt confident taking the risk. I rolled the dice because I wanted to see if it was possible to build intimacy with him.

So we started talking again. Texting everyday. Speaking on the phone. I was careful and the communication was mutual, it felt comfortable, nice, caring and considerate. He was saying nice things to me, showing up when I needed to chat and things were getting both flirtatious and more serious in our conversations. I started to have strong feelings for him. Then he started to pull away – he’s doing a temporary job, was stressed and overworked and worried what would happen when he lost his job and potentially his flat (he had already lost the job he jumped into when we broke up). I figured this was pretty much in keeping with how he would normally behave, but it was a red flag. I backed off. But I was stressed one day and he suggested we chat – it was a really nice phonecall. It felt close and intimate and flirtatious and I left feeling giddy, like I’d been on a really great, exciting, date.

A week later I suggested we chat again. He emailed me to tell me he was seeing someone “fairly consistently and non frivolously”. That he would be lying if he said he was over me or that he was super confident about this new life and relationship, but he felt I should know. He also said he felt so spoilt to have me in his life at all, because he has feelings for me and its complicated. He loves talking to me and therefore doesn’t want to hide things from me or feel restricted when we speak to one another. I was extremely upset and couldn’t understand that he would think it would be OK for me or his new gf that we were chatting like this.  I said that I didn’t feel comfortable chatting to him if he’s in a relationship with someone else and that it wouldn’t be fair on me either and wished him the best and said I was sorry things hadn’t worked out differently.

I can't chat to him if he's seeing someone. I have feelings too and it would stop me from moving on. I want something more than this.

I don’t understand what happened here? Has he healed himself and is now, suddenly, able to have a relationship with someone after all the difficult things he was grappling with when we were together? Was it me? Was he 'triangulating' or using me for validation?  Has he now moved on and is gone forever?

Despite everything, I miss him and fantasize about him coming back, remorseful and changed. These conversations over the past few months brought me so much joy and excitement and it made me feel hopeful. Where did it go wrong? Was I being stupid taking the risk?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Learning_curve74]

Hello NoliTimere, I read your story and I'm crying myself because I've had very similar experiences as you. It really hurts when you have all these emotions about him, thinking you both are making strides back towards a future together again, and then he says he's been seeing somebody else.

I can't chat to him if he's seeing someone. I have feelings too and it would stop me from moving on. I want something more than this.

I don’t understand what happened here? Has he healed himself and is now, suddenly, able to have a relationship with someone after all the difficult things he was grappling with when we were together? Was it me? Was he 'triangulating' or using me for validation?  Has he now moved on and is gone forever?

Despite everything, I miss him and fantasize about him coming back, remorseful and changed. These conversations over the past few months brought me so much joy and excitement and it made me feel hopeful. Where did it go wrong? Was I being stupid taking the risk?

People with BPD have very turbulent emotions, feelings, and thoughts which often are ones that are conflicting. Have you read this article about some of the common feelings and thoughts occur in BPD: https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-symptoms-diagnostics

An example listed about BPD feelings and  thought patterns that always stuck in my mind:
1) I can't manage by myself, I need someone I can fall back on.
2) There is no one who really cares about me, who will be available to help me, and whom I can fall back on.

What is going on in a Borderline Personality Disorder sufferer's mind and how they are acting can be two entirely different things.

It's dysfunctional with regards to interpersonal relationships especially the relationships with the people they are closest to.

It's a common worry here, how is my person with BPD suddenly able to have a relationship after the problems in our relationship? Did I do something wrong, was it me? I'm not sure how much it will soothe you, but most adults find it very difficult to change, and imagine how much harder it might be when you have an illness like BPD. Imagine a drug addict, an alcoholic, or even somebody that just wants to lose weight; even though they may want to change, it's not easy. Knowing this, how healthy do you think his current relationship is if he's been spending all this time with you?

I often live this feeling of self-doubt you might have: what did I do wrong, was I not good enough? We do our thing, but at the same time it takes two people to make a relationship work.

You ask was it worth the risk. Even people who are relatively healthy wind up breaking up. We have to be vulnerable in order to truly love, and that always involves risk.

I know this doesn't answer all your questions. Hopefully one of the more knowledgeable community members will chime in. In the meantime, do you have a strategy to take care of yourself? Do you have a support system in family or friends to talk with? Feel free to post more here if you need to, there is always somebody here that will listen, can empathize, and help you with your questions. Virtual hugs to you 

[hope2727]

Hello and I am so sorry you are dealing with all this. I admire very much that you were able to recognize and communicate healthy boundaries. So often our values and needs get eroded by the slow steady encroachment of our boundaries. You have every right to feel the way you do. And you are worthy and deserving of a healthy happy relationship that meets your needs.

Meanwhile keep posting and keep reading and know that you are not alone.

 

[once removed]

ouch.

the question of "is my love gone" and "how do i get them back" is surely complicated, in a situation like this.

the first thing to know is that someone getting into a new relationship doesnt preclude the possibility of them, ultimately, getting back together with you. its not uncommon, at all.

so how does it happen? frankly, luck, or odds, is some part of it.

for starters, their relationship is going to have to play out in a way where you are out of the picture, and youre smart to play things that way. this is going to have to rise or fall on its own merits. if you are involved, it could bring the relationship to a quick demise that doesnt necessarily work to your benefit, or it could even prop it up.

I don’t understand what happened here? Has he healed himself and is now, suddenly, able to have a relationship with someone after all the difficult things he was grappling with when we were together? Was it me? Was he 'triangulating' or using me for validation?  Has he now moved on and is gone forever?

the other part of it is understanding what, fundamentally, broke the relationship up...what went wrong, and having a strong game plan for how, if the two of you were to get back together, things are going to change.

all of this is really, really hard to even consider, when right now, if i were you, all id want to do is cry. but its really critical. because if he comes back tomorrow, or the next day, things would likely go sour quickly. you dont want to get back together just to break up again.

[NoliTimere]

Thank you all so much for your support and insights. It really helps to know that you're all out there and you get it. I do feel like crying - a lot! - and I feel discarded and used, but opening this message today and seeing your responses was really comforting.

  @hope2727 - thank you for saying these kind things! Maybe one day I'll get there

I often live this feeling of self-doubt you might have: what did I do wrong, was I not good enough? We do our thing, but at the same time it takes two people to make a relationship work.

You ask was it worth the risk. Even people who are relatively healthy wind up breaking up. We have to be vulnerable in order to truly love, and that always involves risk.

 @Learning_curve74  you are absolutely right - we do need to be vulnerable in order to love. On the whole, I have worse boundaries than others (but I'm learning!) and somewhere deep down I think if I give more I might get more, but my experiences suggest that that's a false economy. I don't know what it looks like in "healthy" relationships - how do you know when to give and when to hold back? What has helped you? It's very painful to know that he wouldn't put in the effort that I was. It's hard to change, but, I don't know, I don't think life affords us the opportunity not to.

for starters, their relationship is going to have to play out in a way where you are out of the picture, and youre smart to play things that way. this is going to have to rise or fall on its own merits. if you are involved, it could bring the relationship to a quick demise that doesnt necessarily work to your benefit, or it could even prop it up.

the other part of it is understanding what, fundamentally, broke the relationship up...what went wrong, and having a strong game plan for how, if the two of you were to get back together, things are going to change.

all of this is really, really hard to even consider, when right now, if i were you, all id want to do is cry. but its really critical. because if he comes back tomorrow, or the next day, things would likely go sour quickly. you dont want to get back together just to break up again.

 @once removed  These are some of the questions I'm really grappling with right now. I absolutely cannot be involved when he is with someone else. It's excruciatingly painful! (I know - heartbreak is universally painful - but it still manages to feel universe-alteringly painful when it happens to you).

There is always a chance he will come back for comfort when he next hits a rough patch, but I don't know how to tell whether it's just convenience. I mean, I really thought things were on more solid ground this time and he totally blindsided me! So clearly I'm not all that great at this... For me, a relationship was always going to have to base itself on him working through the difficult things he's been through and the challenging feelings and coping mechanisms they have led to. I have been seeing a therapist for two years, and accept I am partly an agent of my own misfortune. I want to learn how not to participate in (or create for that matter) dynamics that make me unhappy. This is partly what's led me to setting firmer boundaries. But ultimately, of course, it has not led me to happiness. What are your experiences?

I guess on some level, I'd like to throw myself into a new life and relationship too - and genuinely envy his ability to jump ship into new things without a care - but I'm not wired that way. For me it's a slow and painful letting go, while trying to hang on to my sense of self.

There's a poem by R.M. Rilke I'm finding a lot of comfort in:

God speaks to each of us as he makes us,
then walks with us silently out of the night.

These are the words we dimly hear:

You, sent out beyond your recall,
go to the limits of your longing.
Embody me.

Flare up like a flame
and make big shadows I can move in.

Let everything happen to you: beauty and terror.
Just keep going. No feeling is final.
Don’t let yourself lose me.

Nearby is the country they call life.
You will know it by its seriousness.

Give me your hand.

(Book of Hours, I 59)

I'm not a spiritual person, but I am trying to hang on to the thought that this too will pass. It's not the final destination.  There are other ways to live in that country they call life.

[Learning_curve74]

On the whole, I have worse boundaries than others (but I'm learning!) and somewhere deep down I think if I give more I might get more, but my experiences suggest that that's a false economy. I don't know what it looks like in "healthy" relationships - how do you know when to give and when to hold back? What has helped you? It's very painful to know that he wouldn't put in the effort that I was. It's hard to change, but, I don't know, I don't think life affords us the opportunity not to.

NoliTimere, I think perhaps everybody is different and every relationship is somewhat different. When you ask about giving in a relationship, are you talking about specific efforts? Or about compromise? About caretaking of each other's emotions? Something else? If I'm reading you correctly, it sounds like maybe you're disappointed in how much emotional attachment you developed for him again versus what he was able to offer you in return?

I read what you wrote about the great contact you had with him, and I imagine that in your shoes I would totally have felt the same as you did: that this contact was building a bridge to reconnect for another chance at the relationship you shared before.

I don't have any answers, just thinking out loud. Going back to vulnerability, this is a risk we take in all relationships. That perhaps sometimes we're more willing to hold and grow our investment than our partner is... I don't want to over generalize, and this might be a terrible personal finance metaphor, but a BPD investor may go wildly all in on you at first but start to get panicky and diversify their portfolio as a strategy to avoid what they feel could become a catastrophic loss. But ironically this may cause one or more of these investments to crash to zero. It doesn't feel great because it devalues our investment as well, we suffer a loss.

One of the hardest things for me to learn is that I tend to get into codependent enmeshed relationships. "If my gf feels bad, then I feel bad, and therefore I must fix this" type thinking on my part. When things feel good, it's easy to just enjoy riding the good vibes together. When things are tough, then that's tough for me and my gf because then a lot of times I feel like I'm doing all the heavy lifting but she may be fidgeting all over throwing off my balance making us both fall. That's different from walking together and saying lean on me when your partner is tired until they get their second wind.

I feel that a healthy relationship should probably be interdependent: where two people bring what they have to the table and enrich each other in ways that are healthy and fulfilling for the other partner without incurring a loss or giving up part of themselves.

Excuse me for talking so much about myself, but hopefully some of this may be helpful? If not, I'm sure another member of the community will drop in with some good wisdom for you. Keep taking care of yourself.

[NoliTimere]

 @Learning_curve74  Thanks for your thoughts on this - it is helpful!

I agree completely with your thoughts on codependency and your description of feeling bad when your gf feels bad really rings true. This is a weakness of mine as well. He projected and I took it on and tried to fix it to feel beter.. only to end up feeling worse. At the lowest points in our relationship - when he was extremely depressed, avoidant, showing impulsive, addictive and self-destructive behaviours - I would be so desperate to find a solution it made me despondent: I would give and give more than felt right or good, without results (you can't fix someone else, of course!). He had blocked me on lots of different social media, but would send suicidal emails that would send me off to desperately find someone who could reach out and help him (we were long distance so I couldn't get there myself). My mental health spiralled.

This is obviously not something I ever want to experience again and led me to seek therapy.

What I struggle with is the feeling that the more stable I have become in my own thoughts, feelings and behaviour - separating his feelings from my own (i.e. protecting myself from projections), setting boundaries, asserting and respecting my own needs - the less time he has had for me. We dated on and off for 5 years. With help, I've learned to raise my standards and he would not meet them. He was too scared to continue with his therapy he said, too much of a coward to change (his words) and wanted instead to ‘reinvent’ himself. This is why we broke up.

Now when we got back in touch, he seemed happy and optimistic and gave me time, attention, care and I thought he was doing better – able to give and not just receive. Perhaps he isn't really. I appreciate lots of problems in his life have not been resolved, but this was the impression he gave - he told me he was "in a good place".

I’ve been trying to move from codependency to interdependency in the way that you describe, so it troubles me that I still misinterpreted the situation. Maybe one can never really tell if an investment will work out (I have had two serious past relationships with non-BPDs and yes love is always a gamble) but in this last instance, I was careful to put in what I was getting out and to try to read the signs. So, it’s left me confused and sad.

Of course it’s doubly hard to think that he thought we could still continue chatting and texting, while he is involved with someone else. As though that's the level of care my investment deserves. I feel really used and devalued… like I spent 5 years in a sham of a relationship with someone who doesn’t respect me.

[once removed]

Of course it’s doubly hard to think that he thought we could still continue chatting and texting, while he is involved with someone else. As though that's the level of care my investment deserves. I feel really used and devalued… like I spent 5 years in a sham of a relationship with someone who doesn’t respect me.

i would feel that way too. it seems to me like thats really the crux of it. what he did was careless, and it hurts, theres no way around it.

have you ever been in a situation where a friend asks permission to date your ex? ive had that happen to me a number of times.

in their mind, theyre trying to do the right thing. in my mind, "this is your burden, dont put it on me   hole".

it sounds like he sensed where things were going between the two of you...shared things. from his perspective, he was trying to give you a heads up, and not lead you on. from your perspective, he already had.

both of you clearly have feelings. you seem to be in different, competing places about what to do with them. he likes the comfort of having you in his life, even with the feelings. by and large, you feel that inhibits your moving on.

there are several ways to work that stand still, drawing a hard line on any chatting is one.

What I struggle with is the feeling that the more stable I have become in my own thoughts, feelings and behaviour - separating his feelings from my own (i.e. protecting myself from projections), setting boundaries, asserting and respecting my own needs - the less time he has had for me. We dated on and off for 5 years. With help, I've learned to raise my standards and he would not meet them. He was too scared to continue with his therapy he said, too much of a coward to change (his words) and wanted instead to ‘reinvent’ himself. This is why we broke up.

is this a way of saying that the two of you have grown apart over the years?

[NoliTimere]

I think you're right,  @once removed. He did think he was giving me a heads-up, but also that he could have the best of both worlds. He knew we weren't just friends, that the conversations were not like that, and that's both why he told me about his gf and why he told me he has feelings for me.

I don't really know how else I could've moved out of that standstill…. I know I'd only be chatting with him in the hopes of winning him back, and that isn't a good situation for me to be in.

is this a way of saying that the two of you have grown apart over the years?

I don't know if we had grown apart as such - it was always a rollercoaster. He was always pulling me closer with one hand and pushing away with the other.  But I had asked him to go to therapy and that meant we could have more honest conversations because he was no longer hiding everything from me and disappearing.

Things felt good and on the right track, we were building intimacy and it was time to commit to living in the same place. Then he decided on a big life-changing career move. I said OK, if you're not ready to commit just yet, but that I was worried about him throwing away the things he had been working for for over two years - specifically getting his finances together, and about him dropping his therapy. He said he thought he might be so obsessed with this career change to get away from me. The feelings he had been having around that time (before getting hooked on the new job plan) were intense: crying on the phone almost daily, telling me he had so much anxiety he couldn't cope or get through the day and that he wanted to be with me but didn't know how, couldn't and at the same time was so scared of losing me. And always "i think we need to break up", "I don't want to lose you", "I have doubts", "I just don't know if this could work", "I love you so much", "I am terrified you'll disappear out of my life". Direct quotes.

That had cycled nearly daily and it was obviously too much for him, it was getting really difficult for me as well. I wanted to share things in my life and instead I was spending all my time trying to help him through these extreme ambivalent emotions about me. But we had an amazing visit together where he opened up about things he was working through in his therapy and about a lot of his trauma and it felt the closest, most open and honest we had ever been. Like he was showing me something about his core, himself, behind all the masks that he wears to impress people.

Then he leapt into the job, which took up all of his time (he worked on a political campaign), all of his money (which I had tried to warn him about) and disappeared. He cried on the phone about how he was scared he was making a huge mistake but couldn't back out of it now - I tried to talk him through his options, but it's like he couldn't hear me.

I placed some boundaries: he kept not answering text messages, not calling, and then when I'd get upset, he would be crying on the phone saying he was scared I would leave. I said calmly that I wanted to be with him but I needed him to reply to my text messages or set 15 minutes aside everyday to call me so we could share our thoughts and feelings about our days. I probably could have handeld this better - tried to validate/reassure more. This continued until it was making me extremely upset - I was basically being ghosted by my own boyfriend, who would then cry on the phone about how scared he was of losing me.

After several of these warning chats where I asked him very clearly what I wanted him to do and stressed that I wanted to be with him, but we would fall apart if he didn't include me, I eventually had to say I can't contact you unless you're going to contact me. I hope you do. And he didn't. A month later we spoke on the phone and broke up. He said he couldn't change. He had tried. And he was in floods of tears saying he hopes one day we can be together and he'll never find anyone like me and all that sort of stuff. He said he just doesn't think we can 'work' and he needs to reinvent himself.

That was that. Until the campaign came crashing down and he texted me a few times extremely upset about what was happening and all the money he had thrown away (most of his savings). I replied but kept him at a bit of an arm's distance. I wasn't going to get fully involved. After all, he wasn't in therapy, and that was one of my terms.

But we texted every so often, more so once the job ended and he seemed in a much better place and like he was rebuilding his life (to be fair though, I don't know to what extent as I didn't ask about the therapy etc. I wanted to see if it was possible to have any kind of shared intimacy with him first). So, it was approximately a month after he stopped the super intense job that we got back into texting daily. It felt positive and good and just as I thought wow this is the person I miss, who I haven't seen in such a long time, it feels like he's listening to me and we can finally chat properly without all the negative feelings, he sends the email about dating someone.

It was crushing. Maybe I hadn't listened to him properly. I thought he was having difficulties with intimacy, commitment, not that he was trying to get rid of me for real. I thought we could work through it (after all, he always pushed me away the hardest when we were the closest). Not that he would pursue commitment to someone else!

[once removed]

if the two of you are to get back together, its important...vital, to understand what went wrong, where/when, and how its going to change.

it sounds like youve started on that work.

"i think we need to break up", "I don't want to lose you", "I have doubts", "I just don't know if this could work", "I love you so much", "I am terrified you'll disappear out of my life". Direct quotes.

believe it or not, it sounds like you were sending each other the same message.

the goal posts for what relationship satisfaction looked like - for both of you - were moving, and making both of you anxious.

I absolutely cannot be involved when he is with someone else. It's excruciatingly painful!

this is a pretty reasonable, perhaps necessary position to take.

is it counter to your goals?

while you definitely dont want to be "in the picture", so to speak, and let the relationship play out, stand or fall on its merits, do you want to be off his radar entirely?

[Learning_curve74]

o.r. always asks great questions and has insights that get down to the nuts and bolts. I'm only good at the cheerleader type support stuff... Although I don't really know if any of what I write will help you, but I also respond on the boards to help myself.

What I struggle with is the feeling that the more stable I have become in my own thoughts, feelings and behaviour - separating his feelings from my own (i.e. protecting myself from projections), setting boundaries, asserting and respecting my own needs - the less time he has had for me. We dated on and off for 5 years. With help, I've learned to raise my standards and he would not meet them. He was too scared to continue with his therapy he said, too much of a coward to change (his words) and wanted instead to ‘reinvent’ himself. This is why we broke up.

Now when we got back in touch, he seemed happy and optimistic and gave me time, attention, care and I thought he was doing better – able to give and not just receive. Perhaps he isn't really. I appreciate lots of problems in his life have not been resolved, but this was the impression he gave - he told me he was "in a good place".

I’ve been trying to move from codependency to interdependency in the way that you describe, so it troubles me that I still misinterpreted the situation. Maybe one can never really tell if an investment will work out (I have had two serious past relationships with non-BPDs and yes love is always a gamble) but in this last instance, I was careful to put in what I was getting out and to try to read the signs. So, it’s left me confused and sad.

Of course it’s doubly hard to think that he thought we could still continue chatting and texting, while he is involved with someone else. As though that's the level of care my investment deserves. I feel really used and devalued… like I spent 5 years in a sham of a relationship with someone who doesn’t respect me.

I really feel what you wrote because it's what I've felt in my last two relationships. The earlier one with F who was diagnosed BPD like your guy, we broke up (I dumped her for cheating) and got back together, and I was determined the second time we would "get things right". We still had a lot of problems but we worked on them. I'll skip to the end and say no matter how much I invested in us, she still ended up not able to handle being a healthy adult in our relationship and broke up with me. I felt we were on the same page that we'd both work on ourselves and both work on us enough to make it work. But I ended up feeling defeated.

My most recent return to the community was due to being dumped by S suddenly out of the blue. S is a survivor of child abuse but I was amazed that she seemed to handle this so well and thrive even with her anxieties. I gave her the space to be herself, she returned to therapy, and things always seemed good between us until seemingly the one day it wasn't and she broke up with me out of the blue. I gave of myself freely and unguardedly to the relationship and it was the healthiest relationship that I ever had but even then it didn't last.

At the end(s), F and S had both told me that they couldn't fulfill my needs. With F, when she said that to me I didn't want to give up but I understood, though I still had to go through a period of grief to mourn the loss. With S, I had been incredibly happy and so I couldn't initially understand where she was coming from. The only explanation or story I can come up with is that this was a feeling she genuinely had and as a highly anxious and sensitive person, she had to push me away to get away from these very negative feelings. It was her only strategy, something that she's used for her whole life to survive the emotional pain.

Now we're on your thread but here I am spending all these words on my relationships. Why is that? One thing I hope you can understand and feel is that you're not alone. Like you, I went to therapy, I worked on myself, I did the best I could and I still got the floor pulled out from under me, I still got dropped on my head.

I did the best that I could and all this still happened. I couldn't have done any better, because I know I gave it my all, my very best effort in my relationships. I'm not entirely sure how you feel, but it sounds to me from what you wrote that you probably did your best too. And for things to not work out can be devastating; I'm still emotionally devastated and broke into ugly crying four times so far while writing this long-winded reply to you. It's totally understandable to feel devalued, cheated, not respected, and whatever other negative emotions you feel, and I'll say that I've felt all those same things. Feel all the feelings and then also remind yourself that you genuinely cared and loved and did your best. YOU have value and YOU were worth the effort YOU put in.

As for how you felt when your guy was texting you every day again, remember to be kind to yourself like you would to your best friend. What would you say to your best friend in the same situation? It's totally understandable that you felt like you were building intimacy with him, that it was a positive interaction that was leading to reconnecting into a relationship again. As you probably understand, some people have wounds or unfinished business that make their relationships extremely difficult or turbulent. Many times they only have a vague realization of this and the flaky and/or damaging things they might do are a survival strategy for them to manage their emotions which often feel like a matter of life and death. So don't own his part, that's totally on him, it was never about you, it was always about what is going on in his head which nobody else can know for sure and sometimes not even he himself can understand.

This is not to say that if you and your guy reconnect eventually that you can or cannot work things out. But you have to be prepared to do things differently because doing the same things over and over but expecting the different results is insanity, right? My second chance with F was different though it still ended, and if I get a second chance with S, I know I will do things differently.

Anyhow, regardless of how much I've been turning things around in my head about my relationship/breakup with S, right now for me it's been almost four weeks straight of feeling intense grief, sadness, despair, and emptiness. Sometimes there's a moment of normal or even happiness when I'm taking care of my pets. How are you feeling today compared to a week ago?

[NoliTimere]

Thank you both. This is really helpful.  You’ve both made me reflect on my feelings and desires.

believe it or not, it sounds like you were sending each other the same message.

the goal posts for what relationship satisfaction looked like - for both of you - were moving, and making both of you anxious.

This is a good point. Were the goalposts changing? Yes, but not without warning. When we got back together after the first break up, I was very explicit about what I needed from him in terms of therapy and commitment. And in the end, he couldn’t deliver on either and took the new job largely – I suspect – as a way of not making a decision about those things. I said to him that I was happy to take a backseat for six months and let him pursue this passion but that in return I needed for us to put in place a plan for us to see one another during and after.  That proved too much. He just kept avoiding the question.

I do look back and wonder how I could have handled his withdrawal better – and in hindsight I could have tried to be kinder and put my own fears aside to try to comfort him – but I also felt abandoned and upset. Sometimes I wonder if maybe he just didn’t like me enough. If you take BPD out of the equation and give anyone the rest of the facts, they’d say – well, sure, he didn’t commit and he avoided you because he didn’t want to be with you and didn’t know how to say it, so let it go.

I think BPD makes it more complicated than that and I witnessed a real battle he was having with himself, that makes me think there was more going on than a straightforward ‘I’m just too cowardly to shake you off’. I’m not entirely convinced that his new life is as sorted as he wants to suggest and, of course, he can’t run away from his problems forever.  I also believe he was genuine in his email when he said he feels spoilt to have me around.

I hear what you’re saying about not disappearing off the radar entirely. And I understand that as a long-term game plan. What concerns me is how to do this and not feel used. I won’t lie, I feel extremely hurt right now (I’m sure you can tell!) and I’m concerned that offering him something in return for much less than what I want isn’t good for my sense of self.  I neither want to be a source for validation that he invalidates in return, nor do I want to be the ‘fall back guy’ that allows him to keep things sweet with the new gf. And I definitely don’t want to hang on in the wings, waiting and hoping, while he moves on with his life and I don’t (I mean – he’s sort of my kryptonite! – I can’t talk to him without getting my hopes up). Just seeing him on social media, all happy go lucky, is agonizing right now.

Over the course of our relationship, his behaviour really knocked my self-esteem. I have a successful career and a large circle of friends. I’m in my early 30s but lucky enough to feel good about how I look and I get a lot of attention for it, but I’ve also never really cared about that stuff. But the constant rejection from the person I love really knocked my confidence.

Not only was he constantly seeking validation from other women he met or chatted to online, but when I confronted him he would tell me he couldn’t help being interested in other women (!). It was hurtful. I would never put up with that from anyone else, but I kept thinking it was related to the bpd. He would also blow up and tell me how bad I made him feel or how I made him self-harm by disagreeing with him in conversations on politics, or TV shows or whatever. Any conversation where we differed in opinions was a disaster (I should say that I’m a professor, and I loved talking to him about ideas, precisely because we had different perspectives, and for me, professionally and personally, learning comes from debate). He had a tendency to use my opinions or ideas or favourite films/shows/books etc. to impress other people (especially other women), which felt like a double betrayal. Sometimes it felt like he wanted to be me, more than he wanted to be with me. He loved my personality but not enough to love me.

That’s all to say, how do you hang on loosely in a way that isn’t damaging? I mean that question both emotionally and in a very practical sense.

 @Learning_curve74 Thank you for sharing your story – I feel your heartbreak and hope things work out. It does help knowing someone else has gone/is going through the same. I need the cheerleading!

As you probably understand, some people have wounds or unfinished business that make their relationships extremely difficult or turbulent. Many times they only have a vague realization of this and the flaky and/or damaging things they might do are a survival strategy for them to manage their emotions which often feel like a matter of life and death. So don't own his part, that's totally on him, it was never about you, it was always about what is going on in his head which nobody else can know for sure and sometimes not even he himself can understand.

This really resonated and you’re right, I need to not own these things. But there’s still so much that remains a mystery to me.  I worry a lot about doing the same things and expecting different results, like you say.

Ultimately, I think, I also needed love and comfort and reassurances and it got harder and harder to hang on in there as he disappeared and sought attention from other people. I was very intent on learning how to be there for him, but he didn’t have the bandwith to do the same for me.

Right now I vary between feeling absolutely terrible about all of it – rejected, unwanted and tormented by thoughts of him with his new gf (I won’t go into graphic detail here, but you get what I mean) – I’m in lockdown, so I can’t even go out and meet other people! At other times I feel like the whole thing was a disaster, from beginning to end, and I wish I’d never met him. So I feel a lot of anger - about some of the things he did, and with myself for taking so many (metaphorical) beatings - and I find myself wishing he gets hurt like I did.  It’s not gracious, but as I said to my friend the other day, I hope he falls in love with someone exactly like himself.

But of course, that’s all just hiding the immense sadness and loss that I feel. So I’m with you and hope with time, these wounds will heal.

[hopeandbelief]

I won't jump into the debate cause I just really don't think I'd live up the standards, but I just want to thank you all and say this thread is gold and it's really helping me a lot today.

I hope things get better for everyone writing here as I can feel your pain and see how all of us really care about our (ex)partners.

[once removed]

If you take BPD out of the equation and give anyone the rest of the facts, they’d say – well, sure, he didn’t commit and he avoided you because he didn’t want to be with you and didn’t know how to say it, so let it go.

it can help to do so. so often, the things that are breaking down our relationships are more about human nature.

I think BPD makes it more complicated than that and I witnessed a real battle he was having with himself, that makes me think there was more going on than a straightforward ‘I’m just too cowardly to shake you off’.

it is more complicated.

isnt this too, true for both of you? there was/is obvious love there. you both are deeply invested. this strikes me as less about cowardice, for either of you, and more about competing needs.

I hear what you’re saying about not disappearing off the radar entirely. And I understand that as a long-term game plan. What concerns me is...

That’s all to say, how do you hang on loosely in a way that isn’t damaging?

you need your space, and you should take it. you dont want to be any of those things...it will drive you crazy.

balancing your goals, your self respect, your somewhat conflicted feelings, its all a tall order.

in the short term, especially, i would look at it this way: you want to be in his life. that means not cutting him out of your life. it might (probably does) involve space for yourself. id retain all social media connections. id also unfollow, not unfriend. you dont need anything in your face, but you dont want to blow things up. id give myself a while. quite a while. long enough, reasonably, for whatever he is involved in to play out. id get back to my old life, and old self, in the mean time. part of that, honestly, would be a little showy at first, but less so after a bit. and lastly, id keep in mind, he probably feels like the jerk that he has been, and that the ball for any communication is largely in your court. do what you feel like, as you feel like it. the solution to not being used is to not put yourself in a position to be used. be in the place you need to be.

[juju2]

Noli.
my heart goes out to you. 
I totally get the space you are in and its a balancing space.  It's like being on a teeter totter. That only works when two people are present, at the same time, in the physical.
I try and sort thru all the subtle messages, and different than the both being in the physical messages.
Chatting is more present than texting. And chatting to me is not in the physical.
So I am looking at what has weight versus what is nebulous.

Frankly it's like crushing. Hard.

In chemistry, I remember the theory: like dissolves like.  Both solvents have to be present for the reaction.

Using that theory, in the physical. I put more weight, if you will, on what actually happens in the physical realm.

For me it's a sorting issue.

Chatting, texting, viewing social media, emails. all from that is nebulous. nothing there actually HAPPENS.

what is tangible, time spent together in the physical, spending time, realm.?