How to reconcile "protective dishonesty" part 6

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344645.0

 

I’m sorry...this post has to do with what my H is doing and I’m trying really hard to focus on me. But, I feel unsettled.

So the other day I mentioned he left tabs up I think some to just leave me unsettled. Whatever. I don’t care. Today, he’s on his device and it’s kind of turned where I can see it, but I honestly do not think he was trying to get me to see. He does a search and brings up a picture of me and my bf from thirty+ years ago.  It’s a picture he’s sent me before. But it’s not just us, it’s the whole class, we just happen to be close to each other. I had no idea where he found it in the first place. Now I found it, it’s on a class Facebook page with the entire class on it.

What kind of weird crazy is this?  Like I can’t even fathom who would spend a single moment on this. It’s so beyond I can’t even begin to understand. But it’s just unsettling why he’s so focused.

Can you all please weigh in on this?  Does anyone else think this is super weird?  Please don’t save my feelings, I’m really looking for hard answers cuz my sense of normal (neurotypical,   BabyDucks!) is completely gone.

We have not spoken more than 20 words since the divorce talk.

[babyducks]

He is reinforcing his distorted perceptions. 

He is creating his own reality.

It's not normal.   It's not even neurotypical.

It's a sign/symptom of how very ill he is.

[UBPDHelp]

He is reinforcing his distorted perceptions.  

He is creating his own reality.

It's not normal.   It's not even neurotypical.

It's a sign/symptom of how very ill he is.

Thanks BabyDucks. It was my thought (the not normal, I forget about creating his own reality, ugh!). Absolutely out of nowhere. It is so sad and stressful.

And sometimes I feel sorry for him. He just seems so pathetic.

On a side note, your tag line is a favorite of mine. I found it on a pretty magnet years ago and bought it. For whatever reason, it bugged the he! out of my H. Guess that makes more sense to me now.

I just want to say you have been a true blessing to me, thank you for keeping me from going over the edge one more time.  

[babyducks]

Hello UBPDHelp,

You've mentioned several times that you don't know what normal is any more.

If I have added to your confusion or uncertainty I want to seriously apologize.

I'm going to take a swing at Normal versus Not Normal.    I hope you don't mind.

I do believe that Normal exists on a spectrum.    What is normal for me, may not be normal for you.     I think that Not Normal also exists on a spectrum.    the line between normal and not normal is not a firm / fixed one.    it's blurry and fuzzy.

what's different for us here on this website is the third leg of the stool.  Mental illness.     is it normal to eat apple pie on the fourth of July?   Yes.     Is it not normal to eat pumpkin pie on the fourth of July?    Yes.     It is a mental illness to eat pumpkin pie on July 4th?    No.

To me,   mental illness pushes the Normal/Not Normal conversation into different territory.    into a different ballpark all together.     what I am suggesting is you change your question from Is This Normal?   to could this be a symptom of a mental illness?

Your H believes you have some connection to a BF from 30 years ago.    Your H believes the connection is deep and profound and long lasting.    there is no evidence of this.    you have not spoken to the BF of 30 years ago in... a very long time.     Here is the definition of delusion.

an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.

a delusion is fixed, false conviction in something that is not real or shared by other people.    is your husband maintaining a delusion?   I think so.      the delusion is damaging to him,  it upsets him,... and it is damaging to the family unit.      to me, his delusion is a symptom of a mental disorder.

for years your husband functioned fairly well with occasional outbursts that could be passed off.     in the last X number of years he has changed.     was he normal before?   is he not normal now?     here is the definition of decompensate.

Decompensation is a clinical term used to describe a mentally ill individual’s state of mental health when he or she was previously managing the illness well but suffered a downturn at a certain stage.

was your husband normal before?    or did he have the symptoms of a mental illness that he was able to manage better?    I would say the later.   

is it normal to suddenly stop working at a job/career that supports your family and you have invested years of your life in?   No.  on no scale is that 'normal'.    I would also say from what you describe it's a symptom of illness.    sitting on the sofa watching the same movies over and over for weeks while twitching and not maintaining social contacts and acceptable hygiene is not normal, it's also not neurotypical.

I am not an expert and I don't play one on TV.    my take on what you describe is Not Normal, Not Neurotypical, Is Serious Mental Illness.   

what do you think?

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

Thank you for the reply. A lot has happened in the last 24 hours. Everything is fine for now, so no need to worry anyone.

I have just a moment but wanted to reply. You have not added confusion. You have cleared a path in a very dense forest of zero understanding of BPD/NPD. The confusion is just from my struggle to understand and make sense of a lot of things. The more I understood, the more I identified as questionable and then fought to understand that new dynamic.

I totally understand and agree that there is no one normal. I’m more accepting of others’ quirks/preferences/likes/dislikes. I respect they feel how they feel, choice or no choice, even if it’s not how I feel. I think that trait in me kind of made me have zero boundaries.

Even grasping that boundaries were about me, which I knew BUT erroneously thought they were also about me stopping someone else from breaking my boundary. I now understand the distinction. You and FF, et al have reminded me. But sometimes I trip up.

I’ll share more tomorrow. Still thinking things through.

I assure you as confused as I seem and as much as I struggle with the same sticking points, they are my ability or inability and not your lack of being clear. I stand by that you have been invaluable to me. Thank you.

[UBPDHelp]

  UPDATE

The dynamic has shifted here and with that, my H is more following my schedule meaning I have less safe time and space to get on right now, so if I end up with a hurried response, it is likely I was posting quickly. Apologies in advance.

So a few nights ago I had wrapped up like I usually do.  Mostly done with group stuff and it was about day three or four after divorce, custody talk and we basically had said nothing to each other.

About an hour after I went up to bed, but was still awake, he came up and found me and said he didn’t want to fight. I said I didn’t want to fight either but this wasn’t really a fight. He persisted with some blanket statements about it not being what he wanted and not wanting to fight anymore. I tried the “I hear what you’re saying and will give it some thought”. He was pressing for now. I then told him it was late and I was tired and again that I would give it some thought.

Still he persisted. I told him that I wasn’t fighting with him. He said those things. Not me. I wondered how he thought they made me feel.  He said bad.

I can’t remember the order of things exactly (I really was tired); but there was that I haven’t done anything to make him feel better during this time (I believe he solely means sex). I asked what he thought it was I should do and why he thought it was my responsibility to make him feel better (honestly I’ve done a lot of things — reassured him the pandemic was going to abate, that we were safe, have not bothered him about financial straights (a few small comments, he does not want to discuss), took care of food, bills, supplies). He said because he has a lot of stress. I asked if he didn’t think it was stressful for all of us. He felt it is more stressful for him.

He said he should have never said those things to me.  I asked what things and he said about divorce. He repeated that I needed to help him de-stress. I told him that his behavior (belittling, making fun of me in front of kids (this was not silly poking fun, it has been not nice), divorce talk) does not make me feel close to him. That his words and actions have a very negative impact on me. How does he think it makes me feel?  And then I told him.

He talked about sitting next to each other and me not saying anything to him (all me). I told him that he has been on edge and reminded him that he often tells me he doesn’t want to discuss things I bring up.  I asked him how he thinks I respond when he yells at me for saying something.

He kind of acted surprised that I wasn’t so willing to just drop it all and not fight. I ended with that I never wanted to fight and that I would think about what he said but that I was going to bed. He got up super early the next day (same as I always do). He was on his best behavior, albeit, a few not nice comments. I didn’t expect that he would magically be able to stop himself so didn’t get bothered.

That said, I don’t even believe he can maintain this pleasant level of restraining nasty comments, not getting super angry, being helpful (I’ll do it, I can get my own, etc.) for long. I have also thrown out a couple of small things to see how he responded. Actually no issue. But, again, I believe this is going to be short lived and I believe it is being driven by one or two things. I think it’s end of the month and he may need some money again. Wouldn’t make a ton of sense since he’s gotten some coming in, but not a lot. Two he thinks things are returning more to normal and now feels a bit more hopeful. And, lastly, he may have realized how much a divorce may cost him, both financially and with the kids, and maybe mostly in the public eye. I don’t know, maybe a combo.

I am not abandoning any of the work I’ve done. I know that our conversation the other night was lacking in many tools, probably mostly not a lot of validation, but I wasn’t prepared, it was late (worst time for me) and as much as I tried to “I’ll think about this and get back to you” he wasn’t letting up and so ultimately the conversation happened.

I don’t think he’ll respond well to me initiating divorce and in truth, my heart sank when he apologized (mostly his type of apology — innuendo without stating actual responsibility) and said he didn’t want to fight. Even that was weird because he just laid nasty divorce, custody conversation on me, there was no fighting. So for now, I play along with amicable, test some points to see if his true colors show and wait and see. I don’t believe there is a way to resolve because the magnitude of his behavior has been fairly insurmountable the last year — reminder to self, this all predates coronavirus — and I think I mostly haven’t made a move because I simply wasn’t emotionally, mentally or physically prepared. To those, I am getting close.

In this dynamic, BabyDucks reminded me that early on in pandemic he wasn’t able to take care of his basic needs (dirty clothes, piles of dishes).  Those things have improved and really haven’t existed for some time. I don’t know if I forgot to update or it got lost along the way. But I do see the facial tics/knee bouncing, etc., still.  I notice them when he’s restrained himself in some way. Like if he would have thrown and insult, but held back. Interesting info I hadn’t put together. And, of note, despite him trying to be less difficult/confrontational, he has still chosen to question needlessly a few things. So still see cracks of behavior and it’s been a couple of days.

Sorry this was so long an update...I am not a concise person and can never know what detail may or may not be important.  I still plan to talk to attorney, but have concern if he’s going to keep getting up early. I wish he’d go back to work.

Open to any and all comments or suggestions.  Bless you all!

[babyducks]

I think you did an excellent job responding to a difficult conversation while you were tired.   nice job.    give yourself a bunch of credit.      I really liked the question about what he thought  it was you should do and why he thought it was your responsibility to make him feel better.     

 

I can’t remember the order of things exactly (I really was tired); but there was that I haven’t done anything to make him feel better during this time (I believe he solely means sex). I asked what he thought it was I should do and why he thought it was my responsibility to make him feel better (honestly I’ve done a lot of things — reassured him the pandemic was going to abate, that we were safe, have not bothered him about financial straights (a few small comments, he does not want to discuss), took care of food, bills, supplies). He said because he has a lot of stress. I asked if he didn’t think it was stressful for all of us. He felt it is more stressful for him.

this makes a great deal of sense to me.    one of the best things I ever found on the internet was by  Sharie Stines, Psy.D.     it was beautifully concise, well organized and helped me more than I can possibly say.     here is the link to the full article.    all credit to Dr.  Stines.

https://pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2016/07/what-to-expect-when-you-marry-a-narcissist/

Dr. Stines created the following list.    It's long.    but so very good I am going to include it in its entirety.

He will always define the terms.
You will live by a set of double standards.
You will not be listened to.
He will never resolve a conflict.
He will rarely consider your feelings; and will only do so if it serves him some how.
He will never apologize.
What will matter most to him is how he appears to others.
He will ruin all of your birthdays and holidays (probably  because somehow he needs to make everything about him.)
There will be little to no mutuality, collaboration or cooperation.
Your expectations will be managed down to mere crumbs; to the point where you will be happy just because he isn’t giving you the silent treatment, yelling at you, or cheating on you.
You will never win.
Your value will be diminished to the point of nothingness in his eyes.  In fact, mere strangers will hold more weight in his eyes than you will.
He will tend to make you his scapegoat.
He will dump his shame and rage on to you.
Simple conversations will become crazy-making endeavors.
You will find yourself walking on eggshells.
You will lose yourself because you will be trained to focus only on his feelings and reactions; never mind yours.
You will experience the silent treatment.
You will experience cognitive dissonance, confabulation, and gas lighting.
You will find yourself telling a grown adult how to have normal interactions with others.
Your relationship will revolve on a cycle:  waiting – hoping – hurting – being angry – forgiving – forgetting – again.
He will blame you for all of the problems in the relationship.
You will blame yourself.
He will use your weaknesses against you.
You will experience many dramatic exits, followed by a reappearance of the N acting as if nothing unusual had ever happened.
He will act like Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde.
He will not do his fair share of household responsibilities.
He will come and go as he pleases.
When you try to hold him accountable he will fly into a rage.
He will not answer questions directly.
He will never ask you about your day and wish you to “have a good day.”  He will never show concern for things that you care about (unless it’s something he cares about.)
You will feel stuck and unable to leave him.
You will miss him and wait for him all the time.
He will project his bad behaviors onto you and you will project your good intentions onto him – neither is accurate.
When you finally break because of his crazy making behaviors and the insanity of the relationship, he will call you are a lunatic, others will think you are a lunatic, and you, yourself, will believe that you are just as bad as him (realize, there is no moral equivalence between expressing frustration and intentional abuse.)
No one else will see it (except maybe the kids.) This will cause you to question your reality.
The entire experience will result in trauma for you because it is interpersonal violence.
You will begin to feel crazy; then, over time, you will begin to feel numb.
If you go to couples counseling it will not work, and will most likely back fire on you.  (Please realize you do not have a marriage problem, your partner has a mental illness.)
You will pay a big price should you ever tell your loved one, “No.”

that's a long list,  it may take a couple of readings to sink it.  I am going to guess you recognize the bulk of that list.   

  "He will rarely consider your feelings and will only do so if it serves him in some way."   Yes he really does feel the pandemic is more stressful to/for him.    and in a way he is correct,   because he doesn't have mature emotional skills he can't self soothe,   he can't process the fear he feels.   because of his strong NPD traits he needs to make everything about him.   he fear of contracting and dying from the virus is probably greater than other peoples because he is the most important thing in his universe.   I appreciate he is being honest here.

He said he should have never said those things to me.  I asked what things and he said about divorce. He repeated that I needed to help him de-stress

the thought that is stuck in my head is 'right on schedule'.   probably not a helpful thought but there you are.

one more comment...   the things you list as helping are mostly practical physical things...  taking care of the bills, food, supplies.     I'm going to suggest that he wouldn't find those actions helpful to his stress levels.     consider that for a personal with emotional dysregulation issues - the emotions are of primary importance.   pwBPD often feel unheard... because they can't express their emotions as strongly as they feel them and be recognized in any way.   if you want to try a technique to better the current situation, I would suggest you try asking validating questions.     Does it feel like ___________ to you?    Not what do you think about?    What does it feel like.   and then really listen...    I think you will be surprised by what he comes out with.

hope this helps
'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Because I seem to be on borrowed time, I am going to quickly reply.

Stines’ list is 100% spot on. I would say a 1000% if that were allowed!

The thing is, I no longer believe any change is real or will last. And I feel sorry for him — do I have any moral responsibility to such a broken person who I’ve shared so much of my life, especially when many years were mostly good?  I think I recognize that morally I may, but that responsibility is a) not at my or my kids’ expense and b) doesn’t mean it is a married responsibility. Maybe the responsibility to him is to remove myself.

But, if I can have some time to get my things in order, ultimately I think that would be better than running with no where to go, no job, etc. so if I can quietly take this time to prepare, I think I will. I have quick exit plans if I have no choice.

Re: the stress. It’s true I have felt bound by this. I didn’t think he would appreciate what I was doing (literally or emotionally), but I thought he might feel an unconscious reduction in pressure by not having to solve these problems.

Are you saying a question like:

Does it feel like the world is coming to an end?
Or
Does it feel like things will never be normal again?

Are better than just asking how he’s feeling?

I’m certainly willing to try. I’m not good at the nuances, especially in stressed moments, but I’ve learned a lot here and have made progress so I think I can keep making more.

Thanks BabyDucks...so helpful. I know you say you’re not an expert. I beg to differ. I am super curious what you do do, as I know personally you’ve dealt with this, but your level of understanding seems above that. 

[UBPDHelp]

One other thing I’m mulling/working through.

Despite such horrible behavior, I believe he either forgets or justifies it.

I believe he will be beyond dysregulated if I am the one to initiate divorce (hence disappointment at his apology). I was hoping he would stay on track and I could go under HIS choice.

So until I have set plans and a way to get out, I don’t intend on initiating. I will speak to L this week (I hope he stays away so I can, ugh).

Does anyone have suggestions here?  Flaws in this plan?

I know I’m probably overlooking things or may not understand how he may respond. Appreciate any insight/suggestions. Thank you!

[babyducks]

— do I have any moral responsibility to such a broken person who I’ve shared so much of my life, especially when many years were mostly good? 

that's a very personal decision UBPDHelp.    I would say there is a responsibility to the Father of your children,   with whom you will coparent.   and to the children, he is going to be their father all of their lives.

Re: the stress. It’s true I have felt bound by this. I didn’t think he would appreciate what I was doing (literally or emotionally), but I thought he might feel an unconscious reduction in pressure by not having to solve these problems.

that would make sense if he actually thought he was supposed to solve these problems.    pwBPD/NPD have a strong sense of entitlement.    typically they don't feel responsibility to problem solve.  the assumption is that it will be done for them by others.

Does it feel like things will never be normal again?

probably more like this...   there has been a lot of conflict and negative emotions.   you want to encourage a more benign and simple way of sharing.    it's an effort to build communication bridges now that he has expressed his attempt.  it's also an effort to reduce conflict... to dial down the emotional temperature.

Thanks BabyDucks...so helpful. I know you say you’re not an expert. I beg to differ. I am super curious what you do do, as I know personally you’ve dealt with this, but your level of understanding seems above that. 

thanks for asking UBPDHelp.   I work in an engineering/technical capacity for the United States Military.   For the last 5 years it's been the Navy.    Right now I am home recovering from a medical event, and really appreciate our conversations.    so thank you;  for being willing to engage and put in the effort.

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

that's a very personal decision UBPDHelp.    I would say there is a responsibility to the Father of your children,   with whom you will coparent.   and to the children, he is going to be their father all of their lives.

I guess I’m recognizing that I’m really struggling. I agree as their father. And they deserve as normal as possible.

that would make sense if he actually thought he was supposed to solve these problems.    pwBPD/NPD have a strong sense of entitlement.    typically they don't feel responsibility to problem solve.  the assumption is that it will be done for them by others.

Ugh. He is supposed to help. He refuses to. Has not taken a bag of garbage out in probably 10 years. I was home so I just did it as part of household. Wasn’t even until I really stopped to think about it.  Guilty of letting too much slide and not understanding what was really going on.

probably more like this...   there has been a lot of conflict and negative emotions.   you want to encourage a more benign and simple way of sharing.    it's an effort to build communication bridges now that he has expressed his attempt.  it's also an effort to reduce conflict... to dial down the emotional temperature.

Okay.  Try, try, try.

thanks for asking UBPDHelp.   I work in an engineering/technical capacity for the United States Military.   For the last 5 years it's been the Navy.    Right now I am home recovering from a medical event, and really appreciate our conversations.    so thank you;  for being willing to engage and put in the effort.

That is very interesting...way above my pay grade!  I hope you’re doing okay and recovery has been smooth. Fun time for it...ugh.

The conversations have been life savers and I fear I would have still been stuck had they not happened...thank you.

Small daily thought I’m working through...

Part of the struggle is that I’m so disappointed that he apologized. Not because I believe him, but more because I now have to balance pretending to believe him with still planning.

I don’t believe he can change. I don’t know that he can be tolerable. If he can I guarantee it is temporary. He’s been better behaved. Still throws a little jab but I see him pull back and stop it from going further. He’s taken to saying he doesn’t care, whatever I want to do (for myself) is fine. So things I do that annoy him, he now says I am entitled to do. These are little things that are more quirks and don’t really impact him. Or commenting on how I wipe the counters or walk the dog. I’ve learned a few strategies that hold him at bay. I do worry that if he’s not letting his usual out, he’s just pent up and could explode. His mood is better so hoping it’s a bigger factor.

And he still tries to engage in challenges. He is focused on my past and sees everything there as a threat or disgusting. So thankful that I understand more around how he got there — delusions that he fabricated details to fit his view and now wholly believes. Trouble is I started to believe as well that I was a horrible, immoral person. I’m not perfect, but I can see now what he’s done more clearly. It wasn’t as if he was sharing false details that I should have known were lies. It was big conclusions drawn on tiny missteps and I thought he was overreacting. I didn’t know he’d created whole story lines about my past. He even tells me my parents were failures because I am immoral. Again, I believed a big overreaction to one issue he had. Nope, he filled in a lot of blanks.

So, with the apology and good behavior and my belief that he is faking, I’ve tossed a few small things out to test his reaction. Unimportant things but in historical fashion he would usually twist into something else. He’s managed to not do that mostly. In one conversation I was relaying that my dad shared a hobby with me. I didn’t love it so I just did to spend time with dad. H said something like, so if you didn’t pick up this hobby, what were you doing with your time. Nothing more.

This statement has been followed a thousand times by, so if you weren’t doing this or that, you must have been sleeping with your bf. He didn’t this time, but it was clearly in the air. Some of these things he says it to were when I was eight or twelve and I say so, which admittedly quells it, but it still shows a level of depravity.

These are the cracks in his new no fight personality. I don’t expect it to magically be gone. In fact, I know it never will be. Just sharing.

I don’t think I’ll keep doing mini meaningless testing, may be giving him future story creation topics, even though the subjects were fave foods or movie, I believe there’s a scandal waiting for him to find.

Any thoughts? 

[Notwendy]

How do you react when he makes these accusations?

One reason he does this is that- these are his own insecurities that he is seeking relief from- so when he accuses you and you react, you have, in a way, taken these on yourself for him.

They are actually pointless accusations. I like the mental substitution of "pink elephant" for these. If your H accused you of being a pink elephant, would you defend it? React to it? I hope not. You are quite certain you aren't a pink elephant. It would be absurd to try to convince him you are not. His thinking you are can not make you one. He can think it all day long and it won't make you into a pink elephant.

So well, you were sleeping with your boyfriend when you were 8. Ridiculous- pink elephant. But regardless, who you slept with before you married your H is a moot point. You can't change it. It's not really his place to try to insert himself into your past.

It's understandable to feel jealous of an old flame, but adults can rationalize this. "It's before she met me, we are together now, she's not with him" and let it go.

You can react like an adult would. " I know you were sleeping with so and so". "That isn't something I want to discuss" and walk away. Sooner or later he might get bored.

[formflier]

I want to come alongside others and praise you for handling difficult conversations.   That is such a different response from when you first showed up.

Give space to that "talk" and then be deliberate about "detaching" and thinking about what you wish you had said...what you wish you hadn't said.  That way...next time will be better for you.

This is not a time to "beat yourself up".  It's a time to find one or two things to tweak and then move forward.

 

When you get a chance.  I'm interested in your thoughts on whether he is doing things "for real" or "faking". 

What would "real" look like.  How would you know?

What exactly is it that leads you to belief it's "fake" or "may be fake".

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

How do you react when he makes these accusations?

I used to get angry and then plead for him to stop. It wasn’t true begging (or maybe it was). It wasn’t that I needed him to get over it, it was that I truly believed he didn’t understand. I had no idea he had filled in a lot of missing pieces and just created an alternate reality. That reality made him feel bad, probably based upon his own experiences, and he was lashing out at me to fix himself. The tug of war went on for years here and there. The past year it has been often.

A few months ago I told him I was no longer going to discuss and tell him so if he says anything. He has not for quite a while. I think something about the pandemic is restraining him, not so much that he’s actually changed.

So, now for these comments, I state the truth and walk away. He can believe or not, but he has to figure out where to go. I don’t engage in the nonsense.

One reason he does this is that- these are his own insecurities that he is seeking relief from- so when he accuses you and you react, you have, in a way, taken these on yourself for him.

Yep, I reinforced for a LONG time. Tough lesson that I have learned and mostly apply. Get caught a couple of times, but now I can reset pretty fast at least.

They are actually pointless accusations. I like the mental substitution of "pink elephant" for these. If your H accused you of being a pink elephant, would you defend it? React to it? I hope not. You are quite certain you aren't a pink elephant. It would be absurd to try to convince him you are not. His thinking you are can not make you one. He can think it all day long and it won't make you into a pink elephant.

So well, you were sleeping with your boyfriend when you were 8. Ridiculous- pink elephant. But regardless, who you slept with before you married your H is a moot point. You can't change it. It's not really his place to try to insert himself into your past.

It's understandable to feel jealous of an old flame, but adults can rationalize this. "It's before she met me, we are together now, she's not with him" and let it go.

You can react like an adult would. " I know you were sleeping with so and so". "That isn't something I want to discuss" and walk away. Sooner or later he might get bored.

Agree. I know it’s ridiculous. I just can’t comprehend what he’s actually
thinking because it simply makes no sense, but he so believes it does.

Thanks notwendy. Very helpful insights and tools.

[UBPDHelp]

I want to come alongside others and praise you for handling difficult conversations.   That is such a different response from when you first showed up.

Give space to that "talk" and then be deliberate about "detaching" and thinking about what you wish you had said...what you wish you hadn't said.  That way...next time will be better for you.

This is not a time to "beat yourself up".  It's a time to find one or two things to tweak and then move forward.

 

Thank you. I am working on things. I am stuck in more the not making it worse mode than in the making it better mode. The amount of validation that is required is exhausting.

I see him trying to be better but still see the cracks. Are they him trying but not quite ready or is he trying but can’t really contain these things?

He told me today that he didn’t value my opinion on something. He was aggravated that he wasn’t getting his way. I told him I would think about it, that it seemed silly to be discussing if he didn’t value my thoughts and excused myself.

It’s true, it doesn’t change him, but it makes me feel better not having to listen to him.

He’s still on a narcissistic roll. It’s back to the hypocrisy. He will point out he did something and at the same time take credit for what you do. None of it is all that important, but it is tiring listening to him go on and on. I’ve learned a few strategies — validate and state my truth generally work.

When you get a chance.  I'm interested in your thoughts on whether he is doing things "for real" or "faking".  

What would "real" look like.  How would you know?

What exactly is it that leads you to belief it's "fake" or "may be fake".

I believe his desire to keep me stuck is real. I don’t believe he’s being real about not fighting anymore. I don’t believe he can continue playing nice and calm.

I don’t know what it would look like. I don’t know how I would know.

I see cracks in the new nice. Is it a that he needs more time or are his true feelings showing through. Technically he never said he didn’t still want to divorce. He just said he didn’t want to fight.

I have a couple of stories about conversations today but I’m exhausted so will share tomorrow.

It will give me some more time to think about your questions. Thanks FF.

[babyducks]

I guess I’m recognizing that I’m really struggling.

In what way are you struggling UBH?     I think it would be a great idea for you take a day or two off from trying to figure this out.   give yourself some time to sit and try and relax.     there is no way to figure this all out quickly.   it takes time.  it takes time to absorb new information.     self care.   self care.    self care.  slow down.   take a deep breath.   try to relax.    try to dump stress.

So, with the apology and good behavior and my belief that he is faking, I’ve tossed a few small things out to test his reaction.

I don’t think I’ll keep doing mini meaningless testing, may be giving him future story creation topics, even though the subjects were fave foods or movie, I believe there’s a scandal waiting for him to find.

Any thoughts?

this type of testing behavior is not typically recommended by this website.    it can be perceived as manipulative since you are using his known weakness against him.   it can also further erode the trust in the relationship.   it continues the conflict that is always boiling just under the surface.   I would say let this go.

I see him trying to be better but still see the cracks. Are they him trying but not quite ready or is he trying but can’t really contain these things?

do you think he is making a conscious decision to act in certain ways or not in certain ways?     how much control do you think we have over how we express our personalities?    you mentioned that you have been known to stress eat,   is it easy for you to contain your urge to stress eat?   is it easier for him to contain his maladaptive coping traits,  bullying behavior, than it is for you to contain the stress eating?    is it easier for you?   about the same?    you probably noticed that I am gay,.. do you think that I could change my personality enough to not be gay?     even if I tried really hard?

these are deep and complex questions.   personality is complicated.   slow down.  take some time to think through what you are seeing.    

 
I see cracks in the new nice. Is it a that he needs more time or are his true feelings showing through. Technically he never said he didn’t still want to divorce. He just said he didn’t want to fight.

   

does it matter?  you have a window of opportunity here for connection.    that doesn't mean fix the relationship or not divorce or that tomorrow won't be different.    there is an opportunity to lessen the conflict.    better for you.   better for the kids.    better for him.   and it might only last for today.    

turn the focus back on you.   what can you do (today) that is better for you?   better for the kids?   what can you do that will turn the household atmosphere from toxic, stressful to calm and comfortable regardless of what tomorrow will bring?

'ducks  

[formflier]

I don’t know what it would look like. I don’t know how I would know.
 

Good work with introspection.  That said, I'm going to "ditto" what others have suggested that a deliberate period of relaxing and slowing down on figuring things out is a good thing.

One of my many hopes for you is that you can develop a "parking lot" for ideas/issues that need work.  (these can be yours or someone else's)

When you are not in a good frame of mind (which happens to us all) to work through stuff..."park" those issues and focus on building yourself up.   Even if others don't want you to "park".

For now...can we park the idea of whether or not your hubby is "faking" or "real".  My guess is that this issue will look different to you in a day or two.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

In what way are you struggling UBH?     I think it would be a great idea for you take a day or two off from trying to figure this out.   give yourself some time to sit and try and relax.     there is no way to figure this all out quickly.   it takes time.  it takes time to absorb new information.     self care.   self care.    self care.  slow down.   take a deep breath.   try to relax.    try to dump stress.

I think I’m struggling because in an ideal world I would have an intact family. I believe more than ever that this can’t happen. I worry that when he’s being more conscious of how his words and behavior affect me (and hopefully see some in the kids), that I will believe he is able to do this. And then I worry that he’ll be good for 6 months and then he’ll go back and I’ll kick myself again. And, yet deciding to break up the family is not an easy one. Just struggling with what’s better for the kids (I think I would be better without him as he is primarily focused on me anyway).

this type of testing behavior is not typically recommended by this website.    it can be perceived as manipulative since you are using his known weakness against him.   it can also further erode the trust in the relationship.   it continues the conflict that is always boiling just under the surface.   I would say let this go.

For the record, it wasn’t me poking him. It was sharing something about my childhood with my kids to see if he would call me a hillbilly or worse, bring up what I must have been spending my time doing. And, some is because I have primarily avoided talking about these things because it generally led to a lot of derogatory comments by him. So twofold — could he refrain from disparaging me and some that it might slowly allow him to be more comfortable with these conversations.

For years I’ve identified that he needs three or four times hearing something to agree to it and not react poorly (when he thinks something else should happen).  These are not trying to coerce him to do awful things. Daughter wants to date someone he doesn’t feel she should (erroneously believes last name signifies his religion — for me, this doesn’t matter. They’re not getting married and if one day they wanted to I presume they loved each other and would understand whether or not religion was going to pose an issue for them. Millions of people manage this...ugh, but this is the first date.). So, it’s a matter of mentioning it, letting him think about it. Mentioning it again and reminding it’s just a date. And then probably mentioning again. This is for a lot of things — jobs, school, etc. It can just take time for things to settle with him and for him to come around. Not even saying taking time to think is bad, just it is a lot and often for things that don’t require so much. Sure it’s his strategy to control and wears you down.
 

do you think he is making a conscious decision to act in certain ways or not in certain ways?     how much control do you think we have over how we express our personalities?    you mentioned that you have been known to stress eat,   is it easy for you to contain your urge to stress eat?   is it easier for him to contain his maladaptive coping traits,  bullying behavior, than it is for you to contain the stress eating?    is it easier for you?   about the same?    you probably noticed that I am gay,.. do you think that I could change my personality enough to not be gay?     even if I tried really hard?

Yes and no. Generally I believe he just reacts genuinely. It is concerning because does that mean that over the years he just has increased his disordered reactions?  Is this a lot because of my lack of boundaries and tools?

But, some I believe he is making a conscious effort. Or rather, the effort is to refrain from reacting poorly. But is that sustainable?

And, why now when telling a story — not personal in any way — does he end up screaming and insist on loudly using profanity to tell it?  It just feels too much. But this is a boundary opportunity.

No, it’s not easy to control my stress eating. Nope, not at all and it doesn’t help that I’m a really good cook (hmm, excuse me for bragging).

Yes, I saw that you are gay. I don’t define people on that or religion or race or anything beyond being a good person. And, no I don’t think you or anyone makes a conscious decision to love who you love. Love is love, but it has to be love.  

these are deep and complex questions.   personality is complicated.   slow down.  take some time to think through what you are seeing.    
    
does it matter?  you have a window of opportunity here for connection.    that doesn't mean fix the relationship or not divorce or that tomorrow won't be different.    there is an opportunity to lessen the conflict.    better for you.   better for the kids.    better for him.   and it might only last for today.

The only reason it matters is that I connect and have hope to only get stomped on again. But, I agree I can lessen the conflict seeing as no one is going anywhere for a while. I guess I should see if we can improve but I just don’t trust it to last so it’s hard to not seem disingenuous.    

turn the focus back on you.   what can you do (today) that is better for you?   better for the kids?   what can you do that will turn the household atmosphere from toxic, stressful to calm and comfortable regardless of what tomorrow will bring?

Point taken. Will focus on us being better and see if he will follow along.

Thanks BabyDucks, you are a voice or reason and it really is appreciated!

[UBPDHelp]

Good work with introspection.  That said, I'm going to "ditto" what others have suggested that a deliberate period of relaxing and slowing down on figuring things out is a good thing.

One of my many hopes for you is that you can develop a "parking lot" for ideas/issues that need work.  (these can be yours or someone else's)

When you are not in a good frame of mind (which happens to us all) to work through stuff..."park" those issues and focus on building yourself up.   Even if others don't want you to "park".

For now...can we park the idea of whether or not your hubby is "faking" or "real".  My guess is that this issue will look different to you in a day or two.

Thanks FF.  I think this is a good idea.

One issue I have is that I get easily distracted. This is mostly not an internal flaw, although I know some is (maybe 30%), but I am being pulled in a lot of directions.

With that in mind, I can see another purpose for the journal in the cloud.  My only concern with parking things is that I park, something new comes up and I forget to ever go back to the parked issue and then bam I get hit with the issue again.  Sort of like 50 first dates. 

I suppose I could park them in the cloud, take a day or two and set a reminder to revisit.

What strategies do you use to keep issues straight and/or to remember to go back to them?

I think my distraction has had a big impact on our dynamic.  That and my willingness to get over things believing this time would be better or different.

Thanks FF...love to hear your thoughts/suggestions.

[formflier]

If you park it, come back to it in 2 or 3 days and it doesn't seem important...

Hmm...perhaps there is a lesson there.  What do you think?

Remember...this all stems from "I'm exhausted" (or words to that effect).  So...do less, make sure what you do is done well. 

I would suggest that if you use this strategy that in a month you will believe you are more rested AND that more has been accomplished.  Yep..both.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

If you park it, come back to it in 2 or 3 days and it doesn't seem important...

Hmm...perhaps there is a lesson there.  What do you think?

Remember...this all stems from "I'm exhausted" (or words to that effect).  So...do less, make sure what you do is done well. 

I would suggest that if you use this strategy that in a month you will believe you are more rested AND that more has been accomplished.  Yep..both.

Hi FF, I think this is good. It’s true, sometimes it seems big and then doesn’t seem so big in the end.

I was really trying to just take time away to decompress. I tried to be nice and go chat with him about unimportant things and we’ve worked on a couple of important things, which is surprising. He still gives me whiplash changing his mind. I can’t tell you how many times he’ll flip flop, I think we settle and I implement to find he either flips again or thinks we landed somewhere else. I repeat a lot for confirmation now, which is frustrating to both of us. My kids do it too for the same unconscious reason.

Anyway, the day after he proclaimed he didn’t want to fight, he got up hours earlier than normal. That’s usually the time I clean up the kitchen, have a cup of coffee and sort of plan the day. He came down EARLY and I asked what he was doing up (like 3-4 hours sleep). He was just up. I said okay, just FYI, I’m not getting around until I’ve had my cup of coffee. He doesn’t like to be around anyone who hasn’t showered ( so I was just letting him know.

Today the kids want to go outside and I tell them yes and I’ll go sit outside with them. H gets mad because he’s been sitting outside and he now accuses me of copying him, that I never sit outside and that in six months I will say I’m the one who is outside. I have four kids and countless play dates and have watched every shingle one of them all this time outside.

Can I claim the outside as my own?  Is this a true debate?  Why am I being accused of something I may do in the future, which I won’t. That’s what he does. Why is this a battle?

I think it’s the constant needless nitpicking that I can’t stand anymore.

What am I doing wrong?  I went along with his interests, didn’t do any heavy conversations and simply telling the kids I would keep an eye on them gets me attacked.

I can accept I’m missing something here, but what?  Help.

[formflier]

he also owns the inside..and you've never done that either.

your answer  "I see..."

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Can I claim the outside as my own?  Is this a true debate?  Why am I being accused of something I may do in the future, which I won’t. That’s what he does. Why is this a battle?



The nitpicking could be a way to keep you engaged, and get your attention. Your H's emotional level seems very young. Maybe this is like pulling a girl's ponytail in grade school to get her attention. Negative attention ( you getting upset) is still attention.

It's not a battle, unless you retort, react emotionally,  and make it one. It's actually so absurd " you will own the outside" that it could be funny if you think about it. Some lighthearted comment back might be OK if it doesn't aggravate him further- "yup, I'm going to own the outside" and then go on. Or it might be better to not say anything like that back- you be the judge.

I've heard the saying "feelings equal facts" to someone with BPD. If you try to think factually, what he says might make no sense, but if he's feeling that way- in the moment- it feels real to him. But feelings don't last long and once the feeling is past, he might not think this.

My H has said some hurtful things and made some strange accusations - and I used to get upset, react, try to fix them, or defend them. With better boundaries, I was able to not react as much- to filter them out. If something made no sense to me, I just let them go.  It's been a giant leap to not have these things bother me as much. Think about what if a stranger said " you will own the outside?". You'd probably think it was weird, and not take it personally. Don't take these things personally.

[babyducks]

Can I claim the outside as my own?  Is this a true debate?  Why am I being accused of something I may do in the future, which I won’t. That’s what he does. Why is this a battle?

Why is this important to you?   Is this a good place to put your energy and efforts?     what insight can you gain from looking at this dispassionately?    Is this nitpicking?    if you don't like the nitpicking what is your responsibility here?    what emotional defense can you tap into to keep you from being affected?   you have the skills and tools now to apply them to things like this,   even if it is only in hindsight.   

   
What am I doing wrong?  I went along with his interests, didn’t do any heavy conversations and simply telling the kids I would keep an eye on them gets me attacked.

I can accept I’m missing something here, but what?  Help.

going along with his interests doesn't change him.     trying to fix him by changing your behavior doesn't work.      changing your behavior fixes your level of comfortability.

if he is upsetting to you, how do you self soothe?   looking back what do you think you could have done what would have been better for you?

[Notwendy]

Consider also that the two of you are in long term familiar patterns. If you change yours, that doesn't mean he's going to change his right away. But if you stick to your changes, he might then not get the same responses from you. You can't change him, but this might change the pattern between you. If he's needling you to get attention, and it doesn't work in time, these things might diminish in frequency. But initially, he might try them more ( extinction burst).

The two of you only have so many relationship tools. If you start with a new one, he still has the old one. He's going to keep using what he has at first. You might start reacting but he may not stop trying to needle you right away. He might say " I don't want to fight" but not have many ways to relate to you.

You will need to take the emotional lead in this relationship. Don't treat him like a child,but also don't go to his level. He pulled your pony tail, don't take his crayon in return. Model adult behavior. "You will own the outside" doesn't even need a response.  To something like that, I might say "I understand you feel that way"  and just move on to something else.

[UBPDHelp]

Can I claim the outside as my own?  Is this a true debate?  Why am I being accused of something I may do in the future, which I won’t. That’s what he does. Why is this a battle?



The nitpicking could be a way to keep you engaged, and get your attention. Your H's emotional level seems very young. Maybe this is like pulling a girl's ponytail in grade school to get her attention. Negative attention ( you getting upset) is still attention.

I agree. He often seems like a toddler throwing a tantrum and my ponytail hurts!  Maybe I have to recognize that with the boundaries I have set, he’s going to ramp up (perhaps more quantity wise than quality wise) the attempts at engagement.

It's not a battle, unless you retort, react emotionally,  and make it one. It's actually so absurd " you will own the outside" that it could be funny if you think about it. Some lighthearted comment back might be OK if it doesn't aggravate him further- "yup, I'm going to own the outside" and then go on. Or it might be better to not say anything like that back- you be the judge.

I try really hard anymore to not react. In fact, the impact to him and the tremendous relief I have felt by not reacting has been tremendous. But, sometimes the sheer absurdity catches me off guard and I knee jerk react. But, I quickly disengage and leave. I have mastered leaving the argument because I haven’t mastered the other tools so when I start to see it going sideways, I do a quick validation and tell him I’ll give it some thought and go. It’s not perfect, but better than before. I hope to get a better handle on this part of communication but I get nervous to make things worse.

I've heard the saying "feelings equal facts" to someone with BPD. If you try to think factually, what he says might make no sense, but if he's feeling that way- in the moment- it feels real to him. But feelings don't last long and once the feeling is past, he might not think this.

This is definitely true with him. He doesn’t share his feelings/“facts” at the time a lot, so I find out late he took something the wrong way. Like the other day, he got up about 3 hours earlier than he normally does. I usually get up early, I like some peace and quiet before the day starts. He is averse to being around anyone who has not showered and cleaned up. But, I generally get up and straighten any left over messes from the day before and have a cup of coffee, catch up on emails or the news. And then shower an hour or so after getting up. So when he got up at the same time as me, I told him that I was going to enjoy a cup of coffee before showering. I know I don’t have to explain, but I was trying to state a boundary to avoid confusion, etc.  Days later he used this to say I had claimed the family room as my room and basically that he couldn’t be there. I was dumbfounded this was his takeaway. And, he then claimed the outside. Keep in mind he is in the family room about 80-90% of his waking hours, even since that conversation.

But, you’re “yup” statement was so much better. I think he would manage that. He’d be upset I was being flippant, but I think he would get over it. And I would have felt better for sure.

My H has said some hurtful things and made some strange accusations - and I used to get upset, react, try to fix them, or defend them. With better boundaries, I was able to not react as much- to filter them out. If something made no sense to me, I just let them go.  It's been a giant leap to not have these things bother me as much. Think about what if a stranger said " you will own the outside?". You'd probably think it was weird, and not take it personally. Don't take these things personally.

It’s true. I don’t take them so personally, but I can’t deal with total absurdity — but will work on that!  And, it’s just the sheer number of nitpicking things that is driving me nuts. It’s nonstop commentary. And, my oldest is struggling with some of the same. Starting to get the dad taking credit for everything they do, which is sad.

Thanks notwendy.

[UBPDHelp]

Why is this important to you?   Is this a good place to put your energy and efforts?     what insight can you gain from looking at this dispassionately?    Is this nitpicking?    if you don't like the nitpicking what is your responsibility here?    what emotional defense can you tap into to keep you from being affected?   you have the skills and tools now to apply them to things like this,   even if it is only in hindsight.

Hi BabyDucks, no, not great use of energy. I should have been more clear, it wasn’t so much the content (as absurd as it was), but the number of minute “issues” he hounds me on these days. And, I suppose the simple fact that he just can’t stop berating over very tiny things. It’s frustrating to be at the receiving end when in most relationships there is give and take. It’s tiresome.  

going along with his interests doesn't change him.     trying to fix him by changing your behavior doesn't work.      changing your behavior fixes your level of comfortability.

So, going along with his interests wasn’t acquiescing to his demands. In an effort to give him a chance that maybe he was trying, I joined him outside to chat. That conversation turned somewhat productive and a couple medium issues got attention (this was not my intention, it was a goodwill-gesture-only intent). It didn’t come without a couple of complaints, which I quickly put back on his plate. He seemed to accept them or at least it stopped the banter.

if he is upsetting to you, how do you self soothe?   looking back what do you think you could have done what would have been better for you?

I try to validate him, which I find difficult when I wholly disagree, but I try. I tell him I’ll think about what he says and then go do something else.

Re: the ownership of the whole outdoors, I think notwendy’s “yup” would have been better. Let the absurdity of his statement sit in his lap.

Last night I was just over dealing with him. I do think he is ramping up engagement with little pick, pick, pick things. I’ve also noticed his retelling of stories (celebrity type things, not personal) he’s becoming more and more animated and louder and louder. I think it’s a cry for attention. He’s always been an animated storyteller, but this is reaching a whole new level. And he is now continually trying to get everyone to come watch this or check this out. My point is maybe it’s a shift in his need because he’s no longer getting other releases. Thoughts?

To note, I’ve also made a very conscious effort to acknowledge him and thank him when he deserves it (sorry, I know I’ve gotten into trouble with the merit based “deserves”, I’m just stuck on another word to use). I don’t make a judgment that this or that is worthy. If he does something that benefits us in any way, I thank him for the great idea. He should have received more than enough attention/gratitude for his efforts, especially when he takes credit for everything. I am not joking. Feel free to question, but I assure you he is doing this.

Back to last night, I just wrapped up early and went and did my own thing and got to bed earlier than usual. It was much needed.

I am trying to do more things for me and react less. It is hard, but I keep trying.

Thank you BabyDucks.

[UBPDHelp]

Consider also that the two of you are in long term familiar patterns. If you change yours, that doesn't mean he's going to change his right away. But if you stick to your changes, he might then not get the same responses from you. You can't change him, but this might change the pattern between you. If he's needling you to get attention, and it doesn't work in time, these things might diminish in frequency. But initially, he might try them more ( extinction burst).

The two of you only have so many relationship tools. If you start with a new one, he still has the old one. He's going to keep using what he has at first. You might start reacting but he may not stop trying to needle you right away. He might say " I don't want to fight" but not have many ways to relate to you.

You will need to take the emotional lead in this relationship. Don't treat him like a child,but also don't go to his level. He pulled your pony tail, don't take his crayon in return. Model adult behavior. "You will own the outside" doesn't even need a response.  To something like that, I might say "I understand you feel that way"  and just move on to something else.

This makes sense. The issues seem smaller, which in some ways is more annoying, but the quantity has increased. It’s hard to know if it’s partially because we’re all home forever now. I’m guessing not, but no reprieve.

Deep breath and let the little stuff go. How many times do you think I can say “I understand you feel that way”? 

Bets, anyone? . Just kidding.

Thanks notwendy.

[babyducks]

Last night I was just over dealing with him.

It's natural to have resentment over having a partner with a PD.    It's normal.
  probably inevitable.

if he is upsetting to you, how do you self soothe?   

I am really wondering what do you do take care of your own emotions.   How do you self soothe?   

[UBPDHelp]

Quote from: UBPDHelp on May 28, 2020, 07:35:19 AM
Last night I was just over dealing with him.

It's natural to have resentment over having a partner with a PD.    It's normal.
  probably inevitable.

I guess I’m doing a terrible job conveying. I have been trying to make sure I’m kind of meeting in the middle. Sometimes I’m there alone, often probably. We’re still stuck home, so trying, but I’m just not able to get behind it much. Every time I feel like okay, this is better he hits me with something new. More below.

Quote from: babyducks on May 28, 2020, 06:45:28 AM
if he is upsetting to you, how do you self soothe?  

I am really wondering what do you do take care of your own emotions.   How do you self soothe?

We’re still stuck together so it’s hard and likely making things worse.

I’m spending more time doing other things. Reading, gardening, watching a movie I want. Resting more. Baking, playing with kids. And although not necessarily soothing, looking for a job. I see this as a big key to my future. Not going so well, but I persist. Things are starting to open back up soon so hope for more activity.

So basically time away from him doing things I enjoy.    


Just some additional thoughts that are road blocking me. These are examples, but I could list a dozen other examples in the same vein.

When he apologized and said he didn’t want to fight I was disappointed. I hadn’t felt/seen a somewhat clear path forward for a long time so when 4 days before he lined out divorce and custody, I felt like the internal battle was done. I was angry and hurt. His words stung. I’m not fully sharing but they had a bite. But, I beat trying to death and I simply don’t have the fight in me anymore.

But we are seriously still under stay at home orders and so I’ve been trying to see if there’s any truth behind his apology/not fighting while we’re still stuck home. I don’t believe there is. He has definitely not reacted to things he normally would. He has let me choose more activities. He’s helped solve a problem or two, which wasn’t intended, but I took.

But, he’s also giving me “the look” when I wear something he doesn’t like. I know there’s a global belief I could be reading into this, BUT I assure you I am not. This is an up and down look when I’m talking to him to convey he doesn’t like my shirt because it’s not flattering on a chubby girl.We’ve had many a conversation about what’s flattering and what’s not so I know the criteria (presented as a solution to help me). I took this into account when I would go out with him so I wouldn’t embarrass him more by being chubby. Mind you he’s chubby and balding himself, and I’ve never once said a word to him. In fact, when he’s been concerned about his hair, I’ve reassured him and told him he looks fine/great.  If he persists, I ask what he’d like to do, etc., you get the drill.

Of course I don’t love being chubby and want to look my best when we go out. But I’m sitting in the family room and I want to be comfortable. The simple up and down gets no response, so he does it again but way over exaggerated.  I still ignore and he gives up.

And years ago I complained about a body part that I was a tiny bit self conscious about. I actually joked about it (I wasn’t upset so much but more like I wish my arms weren’t so fat). When I saw a picture I said I should have the photographer photoshop them thinner. I was joking. But since that day, if I expose my arms, he’s all over it.  Looks, comments. Roles reversed and I would have told him his arms were fine. Now, I’m very careful to not share things like that otherwise I’ll never hear the end of it.

He’s still angry underneath. He flashes but pulls it in. He still gets upset too easily. The slightest suggestion of a slightly different thought and it’s a challenge. I get a direct challenge of his view, but a “I wonder if...” and he still gets upset.

I brought something up to him 5 days ago. He said we should wait until it was closer. I said fine but wanted to give other party enough time to respond. So yesterday we reached our, they got back to us but we had a couple of changes. He was conveying them and I said we needed to be quick cuz they may go home soon and then it’s the weekend. He flashed at me and said it was my fault because I waited to the last minute. I was like what?  He then became sullen and realized he was the one who said to wait. That generally doesn’t happen. Doesn’t exactly feel like progress. Not sure.

And sorry if TMI, but where does sex fall into this dynamic. No matter how disgusted or angry he got, he would want sex fairly soon (later, next day or two). It’s hard for me to get my head there after the attacks.

Honestly, I’ve tried for years, it’s just getting hard to get there. I told him that when he apologized. He said I didn’t help manage his stress.  I told him that it doesn’t make me feel close to him when he tells me he wants a divorce. Can you help me here?  I don’t know if I’m now too much in my head and not being fair. Appreciate any thoughts.