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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: The message blew our children’s world into a million pieces  (Read 838 times)
Enabler
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« on: May 24, 2020, 05:04:11 PM »

Today is a day I hope to never ever ever ever have to repeat. The message blew our children’s world into a million pieces in a short 30 seconds. They were utterly devastated.

The questions were as people here had suggested and I was glad I was ahead of the curve on how to answer their questions and concerns truthfully. My validation skills were on overdrive. I am so so so so so so so glad I have been able to build up their trust in my with years of very truthful groundwork’s. In their darkest moments I could give them smiles of hope as they believed me that their world was going to be different but that I would make it awesome for them.

There were periods of the day were I felt a huge amount of hatred towards my W... you did this to them you selfish  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) Fortunately my eyes did the talking rather than my lips.

One step closer to the future. Thank you everyone xxxxx
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GaGrl
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2020, 05:34:59 PM »

It was the worst day of our divorce experience, Dell my a three-year-old son the Mommy and Daddy weren't going to live together anymore. Horrible.

I am so sorry for your pain and that of your daughters. I will hold you in my heart today.

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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2020, 11:35:10 PM »

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
So sorry, man. Saying a prayer for you all.
 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2020, 05:22:29 AM »

That has to be tough. I'm so glad you held it together verbally through your anger. 
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2020, 07:38:16 AM »

D10 and D7 seem to have come through the other side okay. D11 is in bad shape. She of all my kids has the most BPD traits as is the child most similar to my W. She is a very closed book. D11 is also the child most likely to have had awareness of what’s been going on and been the most likely to have to stuff all this stuff VERY VERY deep down so as to avoid believing it was ‘real’. Now it is real, now she can’t stuff it into the vault in her mind and now all my W wants to do is talk to her about how she’s feeling. I pushed her on the tree swing for quite some time, I didn’t say anything, I was just there for her.

W looked very ashamed this morning, I made it very clear that I wasn’t at all ready to have any dialogue with her.

I took a walk through the fields with D10, she was very loving as per usual and we had a good honest chat.

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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2020, 07:56:33 AM »

Will your children have access to a counselor?

All of them will process this according to how they are able, and also their ages.

I don't know what role D11 has played for your wife. In my case, BPD mother shared TMI with me about my parents' relationship. I was expected to soothe her feelings. It was a triangle. An 11 year old is old enough to know what is going on, and also way too young to process it. It's also completely inappropriate to share such information with a child of any age.

It's also confusing for an 11 year old to be invalidated and lied to. I knew at that age that some behaviors I witnessed were not appropriate, yet the most important adults to me invalidated that constantly.

I would caution you about considering BPD traits to an 11 year old raised in this situation. Yes, it is possible for a child to develop into an adult with BPD, but also probably more likely that an adult with BPD is acting like a child. Your 11 year old might be a distressed child who is acting her age. Also consider who her female role model is and how your D might have had to adapt to her situation. I think there could have been some "labels" on me at 11, but it was adapting to and reacting to what was going on at home.

A counselor would be a safe adult for your child to share her feelings with. Your W isn't safe and she may not want to discuss all her pre-teenage girl feelings with you.



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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2020, 11:24:48 AM »


Thinking of you. Keep focusing on yourself and your children.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2020, 12:34:49 PM »

have to stuff all this stuff VERY VERY deep down so as to avoid believing it was ‘real’. Now it is real...

This is true for you and wife, too.

Share with us when you can.
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2020, 01:43:59 AM »

Of my 3 children D11 is very emotionally sensitive, she always has been. She creates structures around herself to prevent bad things from happen... order, perfectionism, huge risk aversion, rules, few but VERY intense friendships, emotionally closed off, doesn't talk about feelings.  I note your caution and totally get that at the moment she is an emotional young girl... it's more of a 'watch' (for obvious reasons) rather than the other 2 children who are more capable of dealing and talking about their emotions. D11 is like a vault, she see's everything, absorbs everything and refuses to talk about it. On Sunday afternoon I sat on the trampoline with her and looked her in the eye and told her that I was truly sorry  and ashamed for putting her through the last 4 years. I acknowledged that I had participated in creating a lie where we were pretending that everything was normal... when it wasn't, and that was wrong. I said that I knew that she was likely aware of things, things which if she said anything about would make them real and so she locked them away (she looked at me as if I'd told her to open the door to that vault). D11 will choose the person she wants to open that vault to, and it's very very unlikely to be a stranger.

My W is more likely to have shared things with D7 who has been more receptive to "playing sides" and way more malleable. I feel the burning eye of W's hate when D7 shows me affection. 

I have a lot of emotion bubbling up at the moment, I'm chewing through it rather than avoiding it.

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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2020, 06:53:05 AM »

Do you ever have one of those moment where a comment from someone just sums everything up. My W and I are talking about D7 going back to school as key worker kid. W's view is that D7 will come into contact (and was quite aggressive about that) anyway so should go back, my view is that just because I might get hit by a car in the future does mean I want to play on the Freeway, and D7 doesn't much care but probably wants to go back... So... It was decided that she should go back to school. THE VERY NEXT COMMENT from W was "Well I don't want it to be a case that if something bad was to happen that I would be held responsible for it!". I was like "Well you would be responsible for it, it would be your choice, but why on Earth would I drag you through the coals for that kind of decision?"... "well you do". "W, that accusation is completely groundless".

She harshly judges herself all the time but rather than owning responsibility for that harsh judgement she projects it on me. I am responsible for her having an affair, I am responsible for her 'needing' a divorce, I am responsible for her 'having' to move out and I am responsible for hurting the children this weekend.

I'd tell her so... But it would be uttttttterly pointless
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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2020, 09:38:43 AM »

 
The better response (because this will come up again)..."Shouldn't we be responsible for our decisions?" or perhaps "Who should be responsible for this decision?'

Then perhaps long form.  "So...let me understand this correctly.  Two people disagree.  One person wants course of action A, the other wants course of action B.  The person that wants course of action A doesn't want to be responsible for the outcome of action A.

How should someone view the commitment of the person wanting course of action A...to their belief in the course of action?

There are serious..legitimate..valid...coparenting issues here that relate to health and safety of your children.

I suspect (just my best guess) that the intensity of the betrayal around the affair makes it incredibly hard to show up to a coparenting discussion with the right "tool".  What do you think?

Best,

FF

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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2020, 12:35:12 PM »

What information did you share with the children?
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2020, 12:41:11 PM »

Hmm really it’s more of a case that I am pretty agnostic about the balance of my favour towards D7 staying at home. I was not strongly opinionated one way or another, that was W ‘a department. However on merit I would come down on the side of not sending her. However, when it came down to being responsible for the choice or for want of a better word, control, my wife refused to own it. This is the same in all parts of her life. She has strong black/white opinions, yet faced with the potential negative emotions of owning that control (shame and blame) she backs out...

It’s a double blind, a free option. Do it my way or else, but if I don’t like it or it goes wrong, it’s your fault... which ultimately leads to the feeling of being controlled (you make all the decisions and choices that I don’t like, I make all the decisions I do like... therefore you or someone else must make all decisions for me so I cannot be at fault for failure).

But at this stage of the game there seems little point in trying to even point out the madness of that proposition.
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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2020, 12:47:57 PM »

What information did you share with the children?

Nothing about OM, although D10 did say on our drive that she had shared with MIL that I was cross when OM and W went to a concert together last year, to which D10 said that MIL had said that she was not surprised Daddy was cross.

I said that the problems had been going on for some time and that divorce papers were filed some time ago. I said that things would be different and that I would be there for them and had no plans to date in the near term. I explained that until recently I would have likely only be seeing them every other weekend but due to Covid, it had changed how work saw working from home. I said how I knew that I was an important part of their lives and wanted it to stay that way.

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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2020, 01:07:03 PM »

Enabler, I think you know by now that the drama with you and your wife isn't likely to change much now that she has decided to leave. The two of you had this drama when married, and will still need to be co-parents and the patterns between you are likely to be the same.

In the drama triangle, in order to take victim perspective, there needs to be a persecutor. The payoff for being the victim is that, victims are not responsible for what happens to them or what they do. It's self defense. If this is how your wife sees things, this is not going to change. In her triangle with you and OM, she's the victim, you are the persecutor, and OM is the rescuer. The rescuer-victim bond ( from my observation) is very strong. When two people can bond together- both looking at a common "enemy", they aren't looking at themselves or their own issues.

If you see this as a pattern and also a necessary integral part of how your wife perceives things, you may not take it as personal, and also know you can't change how she thinks.

For now, I don't think this is the time to be making far off decisions. If school return doesn't need to be decided now, there's no point in going into it now. There's more immediate things to settle first.

Maybe it's time to stop expecting your wife to "see the light" and take responsibility for her decisions. This might be at least a quantum leap change for her, and may even be impossible. You focus on your part. You can't control her parenting decisions. There are always risks in parenting and those are scary. We just have to do the best we can as parents to keep our kids safe. The first time my child rode a bike alone to a friend's house- the first time driving a car. Leaving home for college. These are tough parenting moments. Whether or not to send a child to school with this Covid-19 issue isn't a clear answer. There's risk of the virus at school, but there's also the detrimental effects of social isolation and stress on parents from home schooling. Rather than blame each other for the virus, or from the depression of isolation ( depending on who wins) the two of you will just need to come up with the best decision possible.

She's not likely to change and you will be providing plenty of "persecutor" for her to run to OM to rescue her from. It's extremely frustrating. I was put in this role by my parents from time to time, and over time I realized, if it wasn't me, it was someone else, a sibling, a relative, the terrible doctor, the friend who made her mad.. It wasn't really me- and it isn't really you. I'm a good person and so are you. How someone else sees you doesn't change that.
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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2020, 02:30:56 PM »


I get it that she will likely not "see the light".  That being said, how does the triangle apply to making better decisions for a child?


Enabler wants to do A (low risk).  Enabler w wants to do B (higher risk).  Enabler wife doesn't want to be responsible or have anything whatsoever with this if it goes bad.

Therefore, since it's not a strongly held opinion by Enabler W to be high risk, the  decision goes to low risk.

The question to leave her with.  If you don't care enough about the decision to take responsibility, help me understand how someone would take your point of view as important, if you don't stand behind it.

She may not see the light (this isn't the point).  Leave her with her faulty logic to struggle with it..don't save her from that.

Not quite pulling this together like I would like to..but I think I'm 80% there.  Hopefully someone can follow along and clean this up.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2020, 02:48:18 PM »

I don't think I would engage her in this kind of discussion at this point. Emotions are running high right now. Everyone is strained. This is not the time to get into it.

The concept "medium chill" comes into mind. There's a time for everything. In medium chill, we don't react, don't add to the emotional drama. Unless there is an urgent need to make this decision, it might be better to postpone till after the dust settles some.

And "risk" is relative. Home has a risk too. That's two households that don't agree and inconsistent home schooling on mom's part. Enabler also has work to do. School might mean more exposure but it's a regular and consistent, drama free environment.

School for me was  a refuge from the craziness at home. It could be for the kids as well. It was a place where I was able to achieve, and get validation. School was my "happy place" and it felt safe compared to being at home.

There's a lot of different consequences to consider here. Something to think about, but probably not the best time to discuss.
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« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2020, 03:00:26 PM »

I get it that she will likely not "see the light".  That being said, how does the triangle apply to making better decisions for a child?


Enabler wants to do A (low risk).  Enabler w wants to do B (higher risk).  Enabler wife doesn't want to be responsible or have anything whatsoever with this if it goes bad.

Therefore, since it's not a strongly held opinion by Enabler W to be high risk, the  decision goes to low risk.

The question to leave her with.  If you don't care enough about the decision to take responsibility, help me understand how someone would take your point of view as important, if you don't stand behind it.

She may not see the light (this isn't the point).  Leave her with her faulty logic to struggle with it..don't save her from that.

Not quite pulling this together like I would like to..but I think I'm 80% there.  Hopefully someone can follow along and clean this up.

Best,

FF

I don't see the faulty logic. She doesn't want to be blamed. That seems reasonable. Maybe it's part of a larger pattern and is something that needs to be addressed in some way. I don't know. But in this particular instance, it seems like she is saying she doesn't want to be blamed for anything bad that happens as a result of this decision. That doesn't seem faulty. We make all kinds of decisions that might lead to something bad happening. We are not blameworthy for all of those decisions.
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« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2020, 04:42:13 PM »

I see your point stolen crumbs. It's about weighing risks and honestly, she's going to want to play with friends whether or not she goes to school. I can't see locking her in the house. It would not be your wife's fault necessarily as exposures come from anywhere.

I think there's an investment in avoiding blame, and I think it's on both your parts. You don't want to be blamed for breaking up the marriage, but really- the breakdown of a marriage involves both people, not all in the same way, but it does.

I have a friend whose husband cheated and she mentioned the work they both had to do to repair it. ( they both wanted to, which is different than your situation). She said she had to face her part in his cheating. That didn't make sense. He cheated, not her. But she decided victim position would not be helpful and if they were to be in any kind of relationship, there was work to do on both their parts.

You are no longer in a romantic relationship with your W, but you are still in a coparenting one. You can still make this better- less drama. Maybe it's time to take the scarlett letter off your wife. This doesn't mean you condone it, but neither is it good for her to be seen as condemned woman if the two of you are going to coparent.

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« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2020, 04:56:00 PM »

I don't see the faulty logic. She doesn't want to be blamed. That seems reasonable. Maybe it's part of a larger pattern and is something that needs to be addressed in some way. I don't know. But in this particular instance, it seems like she is saying she doesn't want to be blamed for anything bad that happens as a result of this decision. That doesn't seem faulty. We make all kinds of decisions that might lead to something bad happening. We are not blameworthy for all of those decisions.

Doesn't it seem reasonable to say that a person who advocates a course of action and is willing to be responsible for working through the issues that may arise from that course of action is a better pathway to follow than a person who advocates for a course of action and assures you before the journey starts they are washing their hands of any negativity (and I would assume will be standing by to take credit)? 

How on earth is a reasonable course of action for a childs safety to follow the "hand washer"?

Not arguing, but trying to connect some dots.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2020, 05:39:31 PM »

Doesn't it seem reasonable to say that a person who advocates a course of action and is willing to be responsible for working through the issues that may arise from that course of action is a better pathway to follow than a person who advocates for a course of action and assures you before the journey starts they are washing their hands of any negativity (and I would assume will be standing by to take credit)? 

How on earth is a reasonable course of action for a childs safety to follow the "hand washer"?

Not arguing, but trying to connect some dots.

Best,

FF

I didn't read it as not being willing to "work through issues" or "washing her hands of any negativity." If I send my kid to the store and they get in a wreck, I'm not blameworthy for that. There's a sense in which I'm responsible. I would take responsibility for making that decision. I would not take the blame for my kid being hurt. And if I was very sensitive about blame, I might try to clarify that beforehand--to emphasize that I think the decision is reasonable and prudent and has acceptable risks, but that I'm not willing to take on the risk that my wife is going to blame me if something bad does happen. I don't see that as hand washing. I see it as a person who is more indecisive and questions their decisions more wanting reassurance that they're not a bad person or bad parent for making this decision. On the larger point. I just generally would echo what Notwendy has said. I don't see the benefit of addressing this now.
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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2020, 08:01:53 PM »

Would it make a difference to you if in your example the governor (govt authorities) said that there was heightened danger on the roads and asked people to stay home "if at all possible".  

Basically...the world is saying stay home.

Enabler is saying stay home.

Enabler wife is saying go to store, but if anything goes wrong...I'm out or don't want to further discuss it.

Isn't that really more accurate?

Maybe this particular issue is settled, but for sure the "pattern" will continue.  Which is why I think working through it in detail is appropriate/important.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2020, 04:14:50 AM »

Guys, good discussion but I think this has gotten a little off track.

My W is sensitive to blame and shame. She perceives that she is blamed and shamed for all things where she makes choices and those choices don't work out.  The biggest source of blame and shame comes from HERSELF beating herself up for 'being (holistically) WRONG'. To deal with this she outsources the source of blame and shame from herself to me... "YOU are blaming ME for this". She is constantly scanning for potential sources of future blame and shame. As a result she avoids responsibility for choices (but still wants to retain control).

I am NOT SO SENSITIVE to blame and shame. I have spent our entire relationship taking blame and shame for things. I have accepted blame and shame for a huge amount of things that were not my fault or not completely my fault. When I am deemed "at fault" because I have made my self responsible for a decision, blame and shame is ALWAYS aggressively placed by W on me. It has to be known by all that "the blame" was not my W's and was mine (or other).

The result, due to the gradient of shame sensitivity (She doesn't like responsibility, I don't mind responsibility), I have accepted all responsibility for all decisions and all bad things that have happened to W even by proxy... even when I am in a different country, even when I don't say anything. It would also appear that I am the little voice in her head that says that she is bad and no good.

At this point it would be insane not to mention the huge elephant in the room re me blaming her and holding her responsible for the affair and the divorce. Well the affair is hers... END OF, the divorce (demise of the relationship), well I have laid myself completely emotionally naked tens of times in the last 4 years and dragged myself through coals hundreds of times before that for my involvement. I have made myself accountable and not only asked for forgiveness BUT ACTED in a manner to atone for my sins. This is a one way street though.

It's all a bit irrelevant but I certainly get Notwendys reference to the Karpman Triangle and I inadvertently stepped into that one... one thing I would say in my defence is that I made the point about both of us having 'a view' and that neither of those views were good or bad, they were just different. I tried to pull things towards being 'grey'. Unfortunately I can't change the name of the little voice in her head from Enabler to EnablerW.
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« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2020, 05:29:23 AM »

Unfortunately I can't change the name of the little voice in her head from Enabler to EnablerW.


No, you can't. Likely that voice has little to do with you and is projected as you. If you can't change it, it's better to redirect your efforts and energy to something else.

Yes, she had the affair and wanted to divorce. Let her face the reality of her choices. You don't have to be the one to dish out the consequences. She's made her choice, let the pros and cons evolve from that.

I'm not one to make predictions, but I agree with the idea of "wherever you go, there you are". You know that BPD tends to manifest itself in the most intimate of relationships. Well, that's not you any more- and the less you are entangled with the emotional drama between the two of you, the less you will be. OM will step in to that position. Let them deal with that between them.

The kids are young now, but they will also develop their own relationships with their parents over time. They will make their own choices. It's a custody issue for the moment- they will have to live with each of you, but once they are adults, they will choose how much they want to visit, and could potentially have different relationships with each of you. You know that I was more attached to my father than BPD mother. I wish my relationship with her could be better, but the relationship is limited to her own capacity to have a relationship. I just have to make the best of it if possible.

Your task now is to look after you and the childrens' well being. Until now, you have mitigated your wife's experience of the consequences of her actions. She's had a relatively care free affair while you have minded the children and the home. You know that's probably unrealistic in the long run. Like any couple, these two will have their good times and their relationship challenges.

 Your wife's Karma isn't yours to decide. Leave that one to God and turn your focus to you and the children.
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« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2020, 06:38:36 AM »

There are plans and serious thought being done on that front... I just need to make sure that I'm not painting a rainbow to a pot of gold... there are quite a few ducks that need to line up.

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« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2020, 07:31:20 AM »

Right, you need to protect your assets.

On the other hand, there is the cost of time, lawyers, peace of mind.

I can't say for certain as I have not gone through the divorce process but I think the only one who has a win-win in it is the lawyer who is paid for their time.

I have observed several of my friends get divorces and seen high conflict ones drag out for years and become quite costly, contentious,  and miserable.

I have also observed friends take the lower financial offer, not wanting to drag things out.

You have had a high conflict marriage, with someone who takes victim perspective. A pot of gold won't likely change how she sees things during a divorce as well. She won't likely think any amount is generous.



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« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2020, 08:32:14 AM »

Time and chill is my friend. My W and OM likely allow the 'wise' time to pass as they have been waiting for 4yrs already. Him in the picture makes a sizable difference to my bargaining strength (financially and guilt burden). She has already suggested extending the timeframe to complete D under guise of market conditions and working out how much she will be spending in her own property. I need to show that 50/50 is good and works effectively (again, requires time). 

Regarding the D7 schooling issue:
Classic... So I find out by listening to conversations that a different decision had been made about school yesterday and actually D7 is not going to school now and will instead be home schooled by me at home, here in the family home. I was not informed directly about this change of plan... I wonder who made that decision, me by proxy or her... and does that make me controlling?

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« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2020, 08:45:19 AM »

I wonder who made that decision, me by proxy or her... and does that make me controlling?

Ok this is the kind of thinking that needs to stop. It has zero effect on her and only disturbs your sense of peace. You've seen my pink elephant analogy. Let's substitute.

... and does that make me a pink elephant?

This sounds irrational because it is irrational. If you could actually believe that her thinking you are controlling won't make you controlling, you would see that what you are thinking is also irrational.

Take this away. You W decided you will be homeschooling. Does this work for you? Yes or No?

The less "meaning" you seek in these types of decisions, the better it will feel for YOU. This isn't about your w.
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« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2020, 11:27:27 AM »


I would say controlling yes and I would suggest "controlling" isn't a bad word.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2020, 01:43:32 PM »

You are not going to like this question, but I ask in your best interests...

... looked her in the eye and told her that I was truly sorry  and ashamed for putting her through the last 4 years. I acknowledged that I had participated in creating a lie where we were pretending that everything was normal... when it wasn't, and that was wrong.

Was this to help D11 or was this to help you?  What constructive or comforting information was she to get from this to deal with the crisis she was facing?

I said that I knew that she was likely aware of things, things which if she said anything about would make them real and so she locked them away (she looked at me as if I'd told her to open the door to that vault)...

Does you 11 year old have this depth of self-awareness and understanding of human nature?  Or is this more your narrative for her.

This is complex stuff, Enabler.. If she takes it at face value (hopefully it was just overload and went over her head)...
       1. Parent are divorcing/family is breaking up/not sure what is next
2. A lot of things in the last 4 years were lies (do your best to figure out what was real and what was not real)
3. You knew and you didn't say anything to anyone to fool yourself.

Be careful not to heap adult ideas on a child - they will try to process them so as not to disappoint  you.

It might be good to do a private session with that therapists on how you can help your children through this crisis. You have to meet them where they are. It's important to listen...

You might also ask about how to accept your wife's autonomy.

         She doesn't have to meet your standards of parenting - she can do whatever she wants - she has a much right as you. Everyone will support that (school, clergy, cps). The standard for good parent is low in the eyes of the courts.

She is not going to negotiate a divorce settlement with you on your terms. Someone else will likely step in and they will help her get as much as the legal system will afford her.

Your wife's integrity and honesty are tied to people and what conversations she has had with them, not you and what conversations she has has with you... that's hard to accept but it will be helpful to do it.   
.

This is the hard reality of divorce. She won't trust you. She won't respect your needs or your wounds. She will do her best to get as much as the system will provide for her. Everyone will encourage her to do that and to not trust you.

It's not you. It's just how these things work.



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