Ex girlfriend considers me a cheater (maybe I am?), is there any way to recover? PART 2

[dumpedinlove]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344557.0;all

I think I'm making progress internally, but very slowly. Having thought about this again, using what I have come to understand, if she says no to a meeting to talk, "ok no worries" probably isn't the best choice of response. It plays it cool, but I feel like there is opportunity to be validating here. Perhaps something along the lines of "I totally understand, it is completely normal to not want to meet up given what has happened. Have a lovely weekend".

Is this sort of what it would look like to be validating in this situation? I feel like I'm normalising her feelings, letting her know through words that I understand them, and then backing off to demonstrate through action that I understand her position. Or have I got this totally wrong?

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[dumpedinlove]

So I asked, and I'm not really sure where to go from here. The text exchange went as follows:

Me: Hey, any chance you would be open to getting a coffee tomorrow?

Her: No, I don't want to do that. Text me if there is anything you need to discuss regarding the flat

Me: I totally understand, completely normal to not want to given what has happened, have a lovely weekend.

Her: I can't bring myself to look at you in the face after knowing what I now know. I think it's best for both of us if we keep our distance

Me: The idea of seeing me must be extremely difficult given how I hurt you, I would feel the same. I am sincerely sorry and will do whatever I can to respect that. I understand the pain I've caused so some distance is absolutely okay.

Then the rest was really just flat stuff. Was there anything I did wrong in this exchange? I tried to be as validating and understanding as I could. Reading between the lines, I'm getting that she's still very hurt and probably not ready to talk, so I didn't ask about a non face to face chat. Am I reading this wrong?

Either way, I'm not sure where to go from here. She seems like she needs some more time and space, so is it a case of leaving things a week or two?

[dumpedinlove]

Yikes, I feel like things just got worse and worse but I really don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm trying to be as understanding as possible, maybe she's still just too angry right now. The conversation continued and I said if she's ever ready to talk I'll be ready to listen. It then went as follows:

Her: I can't even to begin to explain my disappointment in how you treated me. I'm not sure I'll ever be willing to discuss it.

Me: I completely understand, you deserved better than that. I didn't consider how it would feel to be in your position. It must feel like I've disrespected you, humiliated you, and disregarded your feelings. Is that along the right lines? (and then some stuff about not pressuring her to chat)

Her: That doesn't even scratch the surface. I am so disgusted and so disappointed that I just want to move on with my life.

Me: I understand, my behaviour was awful. It was wrong and I won't let it happen again.

Her: Now I have found out that you lied to and gaslighted and manipulated me for 2 years, breaking up is not painful. I consider that I didn't even know the man I lived with for those 2 years.

There was then some back and forth along the same lines before she said she doesn't think we will cross paths for a long time, if ever, and that she doesn't even know who I am. I replied with how I don't think I knew who I was until now, that I was not being empathetic and considerate and its why we had our issues. She said that its easy to blame the behaviour on mental health issues than accepting i've been a PLEASE READ person. I said it isn't a mental health issue, it is PLEASE READ behaviour, but I didn't realise it wasn't good behaviour until now. She wrapped things up with how it feels like shes talking to a stranger and how I murdered what we had, and how she can't even bare to talk right now. I let her know I understand and stopped.

I don't really know what I'm doing wrong. Is she just still angry? I'm really trying to be understanding because I'd really like to be that person. And I get I can only play the cards I have, but am I playing the right cards here or am I handling this terribly? I can read that she's still angry, just not raging at me anymore, so feel like she needs time and that I won't push things. But wanted to allow her opportunity to talk today. Does it seem like I was actually listening to what she was saying?

[once removed]

youre speaking in a canned way.

this happens to pretty much everyone here who learns about validation, myself included.

the key to the communication techniques, or to validating someone, is authenticity and sincerity.

but its often, at first, a lot like learning a new essay format. its awkward, and its forced. and our loved ones tend to see right through it, and feel condescended to. members share here all the time how their loved ones accuse them of trying to sound like a therapist, or sounding like a robot.

think about it. this is probably not how you talk. use (find) your natural voice. and dont necessarily tell her how she feels, or how she must feel.

dont "over validate", and dont validate the invalid. actively listen. dont try to fix.

importantly: you dont really want to bend over backwards to tell her shes right here. what you did wasnt awful. telling her it is, is not something you really want to "validate".

its her feelings that are valid. she feels like you hid something (you did), she feels betrayed, she feels cheated on. the facts that she arrives at arent necessarily accurate, and you really dont want to give the impression that they are, but feelings are more complicated things.

there was a member here who shared once about how a gal he was seeing blew up at him, freaked out, said he was smothering her, and that she needed space. he sent a cute gif or video of a bull in a china shop, and then backed off. thats validation.

dont get me wrong. you didnt blow anything.

she needs to let you have it, and thats what shes doing. telling you how terrible you are is something she needs to do, and it can help blow some steam, thaw some ice. you dont want to validate the invalid or try to fix it. you want to actively listen, and give her the space to speak.

reading between the lines, focus mostly on this:

Text me if there is anything you need to discuss regarding the flat

[dumpedinlove]

think about it. this is probably not how you talk. use (find) your natural voice. and dont necessarily tell her how she feels, or how she must feel.

importantly: you dont really want to bend over backwards to tell her shes right here. what you did wasnt awful. telling her it is, is not something you really want to "validate". 

its her feelings that are valid. she feels like you hid something (you did), she feels betrayed, she feels cheated on. the facts that she arrives at arent necessarily accurate, and you really dont want to give the impression that they are, but feelings are more complicated things.

Yeah I think you're right, I was definitely choosing my words carefully I think, it wasn't always just a natural response. I guess the key is practice to get to that stage. And I think my go to is to try and work out how she feels and feed that back to her, but I guess there's more to it than that. I think I find it trickiest to not tell her that I also think its awful, because I'm very aware that if I downplay it then she could just think I'm defending myself. Is it better to almost not respond to what she is saying about me, and put the focus back to her? Is there ever a time to try and sprinkle in some thoughts about how I feel about the severity of what happened?

she needs to let you have it, and thats what shes doing. telling you how terrible you are is something she needs to do, and it can help blow some steam, thaw some ice. you dont want to validate the invalid or try to fix it. you want to actively listen, and give her the space to speak.

I think it did help a tiny bit. I didn't update here, but the day after it happened I went to our shared flat, which she has now moved out of. I found she had made the bed for me, left me some amenities etc. I spoke to her a little bit throughout the day and she didn't verbally show any anger at all really. That's not to say she isn't angry though as I'm pretty sure she is. I asked for the mailbox key and she chose to leave it on my car wheel instead of seeing me, and she has since been quite active on social media, showing her enjoying life and saying she's happy, and also putting up pictures with me edited out of them and pictures of a celebrity loving life after being disrespected and cheated on by her husband. It's a weird state, my take is that she is still angry, yet almost acts like she doesn't care when she speaks to me. I don't really know what to make of it.

reading between the lines, focus mostly on this:

Okay so I'm reading that (and also reading what has happened recently on social media etc) as that she still needs space. I'll try and focus only on flat stuff for a little bit, I may go back to the flat in 2 weeks so may ask her if she wants to meet up again nearer the time, but until then I guess its best to not bring up the relationship at all unless she does?

[once removed]

I guess the key is practice to get to that stage. And I think my go to is to try and work out how she feels and feed that back to her, but I guess there's more to it than that.

i have found, in my life, that its a combination of practice, and just being myself...myself, but with greater empathy than i used to have.

if you look back, there are, i would bet, hundreds or thousands of times you have validated someone, connected with someone, and/or really understood someone when it was hard. i draw from that. what is it about what i said that made someone feel heard, listened to, understood? and then its less about copying and pasting the approach, but tailoring it.

practice just builds confidence in doing so, and all of us in these circumstances need that.

Is it better to almost not respond to what she is saying about me, and put the focus back to her?

everything depends upon the context of your relationship.

i dont speak to everyone in my circle the same way. what works with one might work differently with another.

the key is to listen. i know that sounds redundant, even dismissive, but thats it, in a nutshell. most of us overrate our ability to listen and to read a person. youre looking for a quick fix or magic words (not a judgment). when you can better read a person, how to respond, or not respond, becomes a lot clearer.

when you asked to meet up, she said no, only talk to me about the flat. take that one at face value. only do that in the near future. that told you everything about where shes at.

at that point, you could have pushed, or you could have backed off. you backed off, and she let you have it...that was bait.

never mind what she literally said; step back from that. that tells you shes incredibly raw. that tells you she can go off at a moments notice. that tells you (i dont mean this to give you hope or erase your hope) there are feelings there, strong ones.

at that point you can finesse the situation, or you can back off even further. the "right thing to do" really depends on the context of your relationship. you can actively, artfully, listen and ask questions, or you may sense that its best to back away. its hard, admittedly, to read, whether she kinda secretly wanted to talk, or was just doubling down on "you suck go away". the truth could be both (and often is, with bpd traits). and in that case, you really have to be the judge.

thats sort of it, with bpd. you get push, and you get pull. you get come here and go away. from where im sitting, it sounds like she wanted to talk more than she was ready to talk. i would probably read it more like this:

Her: No, I don't want to do that. Text me if there is anything you need to discuss regarding the flat

Her: I can't bring myself to look at you in the face after knowing what I now know. I think it's best for both of us if we keep our distance

look past the digs and bait toward what shes trying to say, which is that she needs space.

Is there ever a time to try and sprinkle in some thoughts about how I feel about the severity of what happened?

maybe. now aint it.

and how you say it matters. for instance, if i forget to take out the trash on friday, and my wife (im not married) tells me "you never take out the trash, im sick of it, youre so lazy", i wouldnt respond with "i took out the trash thursday".

i might, in a day or two, mention that she said im lazy and ask why she thinks that. id listen to her answer...its probably bigger than the last time i took out the trash.

in a day or two i might bring it up again (depends on what her answer was, im generalizing here). i might say i know id failed to take out the trash on friday. i had my reasons (and what they were), but not excuses. i might say i havent forgotten my responsibility (with examples), but that i can and will do better. id ask how we can help each other with this.

and all of that depends. maybe id say "i took out the trash thursday". maybe id say "sorry honey, i forgot".

theres a point in time where you may want to say you meant well, what your intentions were, and that you realize that it came off the other way.

she has since been quite active on social media, showing her enjoying life and saying she's happy, and also putting up pictures with me edited out of them and pictures of a celebrity loving life after being disrespected and cheated on by her husband. It's a weird state, my take is that she is still angry, yet almost acts like she doesn't care when she speaks to me. I don't really know what to make of it.

youre trying new ways, and shes trying new ways.

my unsolicited advice would be unfollow her. what shes posting will only hurt, less give insight into how to proceed.

[dumpedinlove]

i have found, in my life, that its a combination of practice, and just being myself...myself, but with greater empathy than i used to have.

if you look back, there are, i would bet, hundreds or thousands of times you have validated someone, connected with someone, and/or really understood someone when it was hard. i draw from that. what is it about what i said that made someone feel heard, listened to, understood? and then its less about copying and pasting the approach, but tailoring it.

practice just builds confidence in doing so, and all of us in these circumstances need that.

I see now that maybe I've been overcomplicating it and trying super hard because I'm not confident enough yet to be in that place where the right things to say come naturally without proper thought. I think the difficult part is empathising about something I've done. If it was an external factor I think it would be easier, but I find it tricky to communicate effectively in this circumstance, even though I feel I can understand her position. I guess its because I'm still trying to fight fires and fix things at the same time, which must have some effect on expressing genuine empathy I suppose.

the key is to listen. i know that sounds redundant, even dismissive, but thats it, in a nutshell. most of us overrate our ability to listen and to read a person. youre looking for a quick fix or magic words (not a judgment). when you can better read a person, how to respond, or not respond, becomes a lot clearer.

when you asked to meet up, she said no, only talk to me about the flat. take that one at face value. only do that in the near future. that told you everything about where shes at.

I think this is the crux of where I struggle. Knowing when to take stuff at face value and not try and read what isn't there. I guess its a case of trying to find what message is trying to be conveyed both by literally what is being said, but also what isn't. And that it should be the clearest conclusion, rather than something that might be what is trying to be conveyed.

at that point, you could have pushed, or you could have backed off. you backed off, and she let you have it...that was bait.

By this do you mean bait in terms of the right thing to do would have been to not get into her messages after I had backed off?

look past the digs and bait toward what shes trying to say, which is that she needs space. 

Yeah I can see that message now a bit clearer, so thank you. I've thankfully reached a point where the digs don't really get to me, and I'm able to extract myself out of the situation a bit. I didn't get angry or upset by what she was saying, I just sort of acknowledged it internally. It was a tricky one to read as I was getting mixed messages, but I think it's clear that space is needed. I guess the internal fear I have as I have said in the past is when too much space is given and she can forget about me, but I guess it's really light touches that are needed until she is ready, if she ever is.

maybe. now aint it.

and how you say it matters. for instance, if i forget to take out the trash on friday, and my wife (im not married) tells me "you never take out the trash, im sick of it, youre so lazy", i wouldnt respond with "i took out the trash thursday".

i might, in a day or two, mention that she said im lazy and ask why she thinks that. id listen to her answer...its probably bigger than the last time i took out the trash.

in a day or two i might bring it up again (depends on what her answer was, im generalizing here). i might say i know id failed to take out the trash on friday. i had my reasons (and what they were), but not excuses. i might say i havent forgotten my responsibility (with examples), but that i can and will do better. id ask how we can help each other with this.

and all of that depends. maybe id say "i took out the trash thursday". maybe id say "sorry honey, i forgot".

theres a point in time where you may want to say you meant well, what your intentions were, and that you realize that it came off the other way.

I guess that point in time is only when the dust has settled a bit? If she is conveying to me that she needs space then I suppose despite how much I want her to understand my perspective a bit before ruminating with the mindset that I've done something terrible, that realistically that perspective may only really be understood when things have calmed perhaps? And I completely agree with your approach on the trash analogy. I think the trickiest part of that is she has always been quick to jump on what I say as excuses rather than reasoning, but thinking about that, that tends to be when she's annoyed or angry that she expresses those thoughts. I'll let her cool off and give her the space she needs. I don't know how long that will be, and that kind of scares me, but I understand it is a necessary step!

[dumpedinlove]

my unsolicited advice would be unfollow her. what shes posting will only hurt, less give insight into how to proceed.

Also, forgot to add a thought on this. My thinking of keeping her on social media is that at some point I can begin to show me living my best life as it were (when she is no longer angry). Is that a bad idea?

[once removed]

expressing genuine empathy I suppose.

empathy is about reading the other person. its not necessarily about finding the right words...its about responding (or not) more broadly.

i dont mean to be pedantic. the point is really to get a better read on her, than to find words to say. because if youre able to do that, how to respond, or not respond, becomes much clearer.

By this do you mean bait in terms of the right thing to do would have been to not get into her messages after I had backed off?

i mean shes kind of telling you to go away, and giving you something you feel the need to respond to at the same time.

shes trying to draw a line, but part of her wants to lash out and express her hurt. and that would put anyone on the defensive. to do so though, isnt necessarily listening, but trying to be heard.

but I think it's clear that space is needed. I guess the internal fear I have as I have said in the past is when too much space is given and she can forget about me, but I guess it's really light touches that are needed until she is ready, if she ever is.

i want to be clear that first of all, this is hard stuff to learn and takes practice, and also that i dont think you "screwed up" or "ruined" anything. it is possible that she may never be ready; right now, i think thats impossible to say.

I don't know how long that will be, and that kind of scares me, but I understand it is a necessary step!

i think what im really driving at is that this kind of scenario is likely to happen again. if you stick to the flat, she may still get her digs or bait in, as a hurting and conflicted person might.

Also, forgot to add a thought on this. My thinking of keeping her on social media is that at some point I can begin to show me living my best life as it were (when she is no longer angry). Is that a bad idea?

my suggestion was unfollow her, not unfriend her. dont look at what shes posting.

if i had a person telling me they couldnt look me in the face, id probably continue to lie low.

i stand by what i said before: you dont want to walk on eggshells here, but you dont want to flash how great life is going in the face over someone who has conflicted feelings toward you. if it were me, id be posting, but id be mysterious and ambiguous about it, but thats kind of my style and wouldnt look deliberate. if its not natural, and its forced, i wouldnt do it.

[dumpedinlove]

empathy is about reading the other person. its not necessarily about finding the right words...its about responding (or not) more broadly.

i dont mean to be pedantic. the point is really to get a better read on her, than to find words to say. because if youre able to do that, how to respond, or not respond, becomes much clearer.

Don't worry, not coming across as pedantic at all! I feel like I've misinterpreted the goal of empathy a little, and your comments have helped clear things up. I recognise a bit more that the goal isn't to say something empathetic and consider that success, but instead to read the person as you say. That perhaps it is more important to recognise and understand what a person is feeling, than instead to picture how I would feel in her shoes and try and work off of that instead.

shes trying to draw a line, but part of her wants to lash out and express her hurt. and that would put anyone on the defensive. to do so though, isnt necessarily listening, but trying to be heard.

Makes sense. I think I went overboard a little with not being on the defensive perhaps and strayed a lot into eggshell territory, I think I'm gonna try and focus more on not validating the invalid today!

i think what im really driving at is that this kind of scenario is likely to happen again. if you stick to the flat, she may still get her digs or bait in, as a hurting and conflicted person might.

Yeah I would be a little surprised if it didn't come up again, but who knows. I think I'm okay with her getting her digs in if she wants, the actual words don't affect me too much really. I think right now she is probably still too angry to understand any reasoning behind my choices, so until I get the sense that she is ready, I'll not mention those reasons. Hopefully if the digs come in again though, I will have learned more by that point to show her empathy without normalising the reaction she has had too much.

my suggestion was unfollow her, not unfriend her. dont look at what shes posting.

if i had a person telling me they couldnt look me in the face, id probably continue to lie low.

i stand by what i said before: you dont want to walk on eggshells here, but you dont want to flash how great life is going in the face over someone who has conflicted feelings toward you. if it were me, id be posting, but id be mysterious and ambiguous about it, but thats kind of my style and wouldnt look deliberate. if its not natural, and its forced, i wouldnt do it.

Makes a lot of sense, and to be honest I think she has likely done the exact same to me (unfollowed but not unfriended). I think it would be obvious that if I started posting how great life is, so totally agree with the ambiguous posts. Now that I think about it, her recent posts were definitely out of character too and fairly clear to me to be deliberate. I imagine it's probably best to steer clear of anything directly about me at least until she has calmed down a little!

[dumpedinlove]

Wanted to update as things seem to have shifted to a calmer state, but not in a good way it seems. We exchanged a few texts earlier. She expressed that meeting me was the best thing that ever happened to her. But sometimes love isnt meant to last forever, and half our relationship was based on a painful lie that can't be returned from. She wants me to forgive myself and to understand there will be people I love more than her and make me happier than she did. That one day we will talk about all this and it won't be painful, but she will feel thankful for what we had. That she wants me to be happy. But we will never get back together, because she will never get past how I lied and gaslighted her for 2 years. That because of that it was the end of the line.

Honestly, I think that message hurt so much more than when she was angry. It doesn't even compare really. If she's saying this in a calmer state now, is this a clear indicator that I've really messed this up permanently? I don't really know what to do. I don't want to move on yet, I don't think I can. I really would give everything for her, and have tried to express that I've learned a lot from this and am working hard to change from it, but it doesn't fix things. I'm sure she still loves me, no doubt in my mind. But she's been very hurt by this and I'm not sure if that wound will ever heal for her

[once removed]

If she's saying this in a calmer state now, is this a clear indicator that I've really messed this up permanently?

its not about you messing up.

because when you approach it from that view point, psychologically speaking, the solutions all seem to be like "how can i fix this".

what she is saying reflects a person who has at least partially grieved the relationship, feels badly about how things ended/how things have gone, and is offering you an olive branch...trying to make/keep the peace.

is it the end of your efforts? does it mean you cant get her back? no.

this is precisely the thing to "mirror" back at her. be cool. be confident, be secure, give the olive branch back.

youre wondering "has she gotten over me?". psychologically, the best response is to flip the tables.

[dumpedinlove]

this is precisely the thing to "mirror" back at her. be cool. be confident, be secure, give the olive branch back.

youre wondering "has she gotten over me?". psychologically, the best response is to flip the tables.

Think I may have probably set things back a little by doing this, feel like I did the total opposite. Basically saying that I will understand if she doesn't ever want to get back together, but I will always love her and her saying that won't stop me from making the necessary radical changes needed. At the time it felt right, I think I was going for more of a vibe of yes I am accountable for my actions, but I'm committed to change and will be proactive in being the one to rebuild any trust between us. Questioning now if its worth leaving it on that note and giving space for a few days, or potentially sending a message in the next day or so flipping the table to be cool and confident that I'm okay. Unsure what the right path is

[dumpedinlove]

Just a little update, we spoke last night over text. I told her I think we should take some time out when the flat stuff is sorted, and that I do love her and know that she knows I would do anything for her, but that I recognise it isn't enough and she isn't interested. And that's where I draw the line for myself. Don't know if it came across as confident and relaxed about it, but it felt like it was because I genuinely felt self confident for the first time in a little while during the conversation. It's tricky to find the balance between being understanding and being confident in myself, but I like to think that I struck somewhere along those lines by respecting her when she says that she thinks it is all bullPLEASE READ, but also having the self respect to let her think that and get on with it. Unsure what the future holds, but hoping that at the very least I can be confident in myself. If that attracts her back, amazing. But I don't think I'll get too far letting her walk away whilst professing my love to her still. It's tricky because I've lost her trust, but I've offered everything to fix that, and it's only possible if both people want that I suppose

[once removed]

Think I may have probably set things back a little by doing this, feel like I did the total opposite.

i say this as a pretty self conscious person...

shes probably not experiencing it in the same way, or at least to that extent.

when youre in an anxious position, its easy to analyze and second guess everything we do. but the other person isnt giving it the same kind of thought.

I told her I think we should take some time out when the flat stuff is sorted, and that I do love her and know that she knows I would do anything for her, but that I recognise it isn't enough and she isn't interested. And that's where I draw the line for myself.

is time out what youre seeking?

[dumpedinlove]

when youre in an anxious position, its easy to analyze and second guess everything we do. but the other person isnt giving it the same kind of thought.

Very true, I'm probably overthinking it a lot here

is time out what youre seeking?

Honestly, I don't think so. I don't want to not speak to her, I want to rebuild what was lost, but at the same time it almost feels like every day she slips away more and more, grieving the relationship a little bit more every day. She told me that whether the changes I'm making are genuine or not, she doesn't care. And maybe it's anxiety speaking, but I guess I'm sort of scared that I will stay in the same place emotionally and she will continue to slip away. I think that's why I asked for a time out. In reality though, I want to be able to talk and rebuild trust, but I'm unsure how you come back to that from where I am

[dumpedinlove]

So a little update, still don't really know what I'm doing, but had a text conversation today. I apologised for what I said in our last conversation, because in truth, I don't want to stop communicating and I felt it was wrong to ask for trust when here I am saying one thing but I actually want another.

It turned into a chat. She says she harbors no resentment but almost acts the opposite. Saying I wore her down into thinking she wasn't enough to be happy alone. That she has nothing to say to me and won't for a long time, and has nothing else to say. I said I was sorry if I ever felt that way and that I respect she has nothing to say as she feels betrayed.

She said that she "doesn't really want to talk about the idea of ever ever ever getting back together" because she doesn't want to spell it out again and its toxic. That I don't comprehend the betrayal and how she feels. That there is nothing left to salvage and never will be, over her dead body. But that I'm a good man, but I will never rebuild her trust. That I know how distrusting she is, and she trusted me, and I betrayed her. I tried my best to be understanding to all of this. But I also told her there will always be something to salvage, and I would do anything I could to rebuild that trust. That a lifetime of pure love having taken the time to learn from all that has happened is not "nothing", but I also don't get to make that choice.

She went on to say I don't understand her position, never did and never will. I tried to ask her to explain if there is a misunderstanding, then also tried to describe how I thought she may be feeling. She didn't acknowledge this and changed the subject abruptly for some reason. But the conversation came back around to her saying we are incompatible, and that she felt misunderstood and unheard in the relationship. I did not need to read any lines, she was spelling it out for me. I agreed with her and explained that I understood that there was really a breakdown of my efforts of trying to understand her, to make her feel heard. And that compatibility for me is being able to recognise that and move forward, but that maybe that is just me. I said some more and did my best to make her feel understood and validated for what has happened basically. Her response was that she knows, but doesn't want to be with me anymore, and definitely won't ever change from that.

Tough words to hear as always. But in an odd way, the conversation felt good and a little productive despite those final words. Maybe that's completely mad to still hold onto hope after hearing those words, but it's still there.

She also asked me in the middle if I slept with this other girl, I'm not sure why that popped into her head in that moment, but she quickly followed it up with saying my answer doesnt matter as she doesnt trust me anyway. Trying to read as best I can, it feels as though she is still hurt and perhaps still needs space and time. Maybe any messages I've sent of feeling I've changed has felt pressurising to her? Who knows

[once removed]

try to avoid waffling.

i would tend to suggest not asking for a time out if you want a time out.

but commit to the steps you take. if they are missteps, try to make the best of them.

thats more of a suggestion than a golden rule, mind you. there are exceptions.

what im trying to say is that while i wouldnt have suggested it, asking for a time out did have its upsides. it ends the fighting. while i think you want to let her vent, that should primarily be on her terms, when she brings it up. you dont want to be locked in fighting, and you want to have some neutral to positive interactions. it also says you accept the position shes presented you. psychologically speaking, it also signals moving on, and that can cause doubts.

and i dont mean to cause you to second guess yourself here, i know theres a lot of that going on. you didnt blow anything, my point is whatever you do, think it through.

"doesn't really want to talk about the idea of ever ever ever getting back together"

i dont want to get your hopes up.

there is a hint of "protesting too much", almost as if shes trying to convince herself more than you. ive been there myself.

i dont want to overstate it, either.

when youre done, really done, youre through rehashing things. as ive said on the Detaching board, detaching means letting go of all of that, its over, its history.

thats not to say she will change her mind. i think thats impossible to say. it also sounds like she has other resentments left over from other points in the relationship. what happens there, there may be nothing you can do about.

in other words, i dont think shes emotionally "done". but its not clear whether or not shes done.

if it were me, id start to walk a middle ground.

go back to the recent fight. she said stick to discussion about the flat. do that. only that. be friendly, polite, but just business.

if she makes digs, let them whiz by. dont acknowledge them. gracefully exit if need be, you have to run to the store, that sort of thing.

at a certain point, rehashing the old relationships problems becomes toxic, drives you further apart. at this point, if youre going to talk about relationship issues, id say you need a really strong, serious, and good faith indicator, something like her directly saying "i want to talk".

youve listened, and youve said your piece..let that do its work. at this point i think the best move, and the most respectful move you can make is to back away and let her work it out.

[dumpedinlove]

what im trying to say is that while i wouldnt have suggested it, asking for a time out did have its upsides. it ends the fighting. while i think you want to let her vent, that should primarily be on her terms, when she brings it up. you dont want to be locked in fighting, and you want to have some neutral to positive interactions. it also says you accept the position shes presented you. psychologically speaking, it also signals moving on, and that can cause doubts.

and i dont mean to cause you to second guess yourself here, i know theres a lot of that going on. you didnt blow anything, my point is whatever you do, think it through.

I agree. I didn't really think things through and whilst there are upsides to a total time out, I don't think dropping off the radar completely is what I want. I think instead, following what you've said here, a time out on my end from bringing up anything relationship related is probably the best move (and without a warning that I will not be bringing things up). I think in this way, the fighting ends, we can have some more neutral/positive interactions, and I'm accepting her position of not caring at the moment. I will of course be receptive if she wants to speak, but not push it myself. I think I've said what I need to say and to push it further would likely cause damage I would think.

go back to the recent fight. she said stick to discussion about the flat. do that. only that. be friendly, polite, but just business.

Is it too soon to try and have conversation around non flat stuff? Or is that something to take cues from her about, if she brings some non flat stuff up as well for instance

at a certain point, rehashing the old relationships problems becomes toxic, drives you further apart. at this point, if youre going to talk about relationship issues, id say you need a really strong, serious, and good faith indicator, something like her directly saying "i want to talk".

youve listened, and youve said your piece..let that do its work. at this point i think the best move, and the most respectful move you can make is to back away and let her work it out.

Totally agree. I'll refrain from any relationship talk, and won't jump in either with ideas of time outs etc, I'll just let things play out naturally. I'm not too sure what it is that brings someone with trust issues back to the idea of potentially being able to trust them again, but I hope that time and me being respectful help somewhat

[once removed]

I'm not too sure what it is that brings someone with trust issues back to the idea of potentially being able to trust them again

frankly, being able to talk about flat stuff in a cooperative way would be a good start.

Is it too soon to try and have conversation around non flat stuff? Or is that something to take cues from her about, if she brings some non flat stuff up as well for instance

i think youve said all that you can say, for now, and i think it has been helpful...in any event it was all you could do.

she may want to get digs in from time to time. let her, and dont push back, but if thats all shes doing, i would subtly disengage. if shes vulnerable about it, if she says "i want to talk", if it sounds like good faith, i would signal my willingness to listen, id listen, id tell her i want to think over what shes said, and id bring it back here. if its pure attack and lashing out, there just isnt a lot thats constructive that you can do, and sticking to "flat stuff" is not just her expressed preference, but reading the situation right. if she gets off script, so to speak, and you dont, it probably works to your favor.

[dumpedinlove]

frankly, being able to talk about flat stuff in a cooperative way would be a good start.

Yes very true, baby steps I suppose. I do wonder if there are many cases of actually being able to build that trust again, as I know that it's difficult to do with those without trust issues, so imagine it must be somewhat significantly more difficult in situations like these

i think youve said all that you can say, for now, and i think it has been helpful...in any event it was all you could do.

she may want to get digs in from time to time. let her, and dont push back, but if thats all shes doing, i would subtly disengage. if shes vulnerable about it, if she says "i want to talk", if it sounds like good faith, i would signal my willingness to listen, id listen, id tell her i want to think over what shes said, and id bring it back here. if its pure attack and lashing out, there just isnt a lot thats constructive that you can do, and sticking to "flat stuff" is not just her expressed preference, but reading the situation right. if she gets off script, so to speak, and you dont, it probably works to your favor.

Okay, thank you for the advice, I do appreciate it. I will do my best stick to discussions about the flat, and not delve into topics that she may not be in the correct mindset currently to discuss. I'll be going to the flat this weekend (which is close to where she has moved to), and whilst I think that I'd love to present her the opportunity to talk, I am currently wondering if it would be invalidating to ask if she wanted to meet up. I suppose by even asking or mentioning I am around in case she wants to talk, I am almost directly not listening to her or reading her as although there are good intentions there, I am ignoring the fact that she says she wants nothing to do with me. Does that seem along the right lines of backing off, or is creating the opportunity to discuss in person something that supercedes this if done subtely?  My gut tells me that she knows my position, and that discussing me going to the flat indirectly tells her I am there and I would likely be open to talking, but it's tricky to know if she will definitely connect those dots

[Skip]

Very good advice here...

I wanted to add my perspective and its bigger picture than the good work that you guys are already doing.

In addition to the basic blocking and tackling and handling the daily emotion, you also want to look at the big picture.

1. She is talking to you for 3 months now. If she was done/done, most likely she would be saying "don't text me anymore". All is not lost.

2. One key to solving this is understanding what was the underlying issue that caused her to sleep on the airbed back when.

3. Another key is looking at how you handled all that. Did your actions double down on what was upsetting her to begin with.

4. Let her pace this and respond in action, not words. If she is nice, be nice. If she is talkative, be talkative. If she is quiet, happily retreat (no words). She should initiate 50% of the calls (or whatever your prior patter was). If she is doing less, you do less. She is says she will always love you - respond - but don't love bomb her now.

5. Keep the lie in perspective in your own mind. It's not what caused her to move out - something else was at play. You said all that could be said about the lie. All you need to do is listen going forward. dumpedinlove you are a lying scum bag. I get how you feel <silence>

So what is it that has been troubling the relationship (other than the lie)? Let's break that down. And then, how did you reaction to the breakup play against that back drop.

Let's understand what is broken.

[dumpedinlove]

I wanted to add my perspective and its bigger picture than the good work that you guys are already doing.

Thanks, always appreciate another perspective on anything!

1. She is talking to you for 3 months now. If she was done/done, most likely she would be saying "don't text me anymore". All is not lost.

I think this is where my fear is, because we still have 1 month left of tenancy on our shared flat. Whilst it's true that she has been more receptive to talking regarding our relationship, the fact sadly remains that she has still said that she wants nothing to do with me after the flat stuff is sorted. I suppose there is a fear there that she could be done and is just waiting for that?

4. Let her pace this and respond in action, not words. If she is nice, be nice. If she is talkative, be talkative. If she is quiet, happily retreat (no words). She should initiate 50% of the calls (or whatever your prior patter was). If she is doing less, you do less. She is says she will always love you - respond - but don't love bomb her now.

I do agree with this, I suppose the question in my mind would be, is there an ownice on the betrayer of trust to perhaps initiate more?

5. Keep the lie in perspective in your own mind. It's not what caused her to move out - something else was at play. You said all that could be said about the lie. All you need to do is listen going forward. dumpedinlove you are a lying scum bag. I get how you feel <silence>

Completely agree, I feel at inner peace in some ways with the lying and will have nothing more of value to say I don't think. I'm definitely trying to listen and understand, I found it particularly hard to convey that the other day. I tried to reassure and let her know I understand, but her reaction was to jump straight to claiming I could not possibly understand at all. I considered asking what made her think I would not understand, but felt it would be attacked as a stupid and possibly patronising question, as simple questions have been responded with such before. Instead I tried to explain my understanding of how I thought she might feel, and how I would feel in that situation, but I am unsure how that went as she just changed the subject completely oddly.

So what is it that has been troubling the relationship (other than the lie)? Let's break that down. And then, how did you reaction to the breakup play against that back drop.

Let's understand what is broken.

Ultimately, and this was reiterated by her in our last conversation, she felt unheard and misunderstood, and that to her that meant incompatibility. I think this was the crux of it. I can understand, as I think empathy is a skill I still need to refine, and we always bickered and argued throughout our relationship. I believe a good number of these arguments could have possibly been avoided if I had put her first and not tried to be right. She said she had been unhappy for several months, that was the same time frame of her starting a new, very stressful job, which I think pushed these existing issues over the edge. There were other issues she had concerns over, such as feeling we didn't have anything to talk about, but I think the main issue may have been considering being right in these conflicts as more important than hearing her and talking it through. I can't recall a conflict in which i didn't used JADE.

In terms of post breakup, I suppose the same problems were happening. I initially started with accepting all fault, and when lockdown was looming she asked me to come back to the flat (but also that it would not mean getting back together). However, I spoke to family who talked some sense that it was both of us really that contributed to the breakup, and I think going back and expressing that mindset must have felt that I had not been listening. I went through the motions of pleading, and sending long letters even when she asked me to stop sending these essays, so the problem persisted. I think that served to only make things worse looking back as I hadn't taken the time to recognise the actual issue. Things started looking up again when I began listening and showing that, however downturned after an anxiety induced call when she became very distant for a few days all of a sudden. After that, the lie came out and was sort of the cherry on the cake

[dumpedinlove]

I'll add, and I don't know if it matters or not, that she had said many times that she was still thinking about the future for us. It was a bit odd and a bit mixed, for example she started out at the time of the breakup saying she wants to be able to date other people and see if there is someone more right for her, but also just to see what the years teach us and that she was open to a future with me. I think in terms of how I handled things post breakup, it was definitely difficult to try and be truly empathetic when hearing that, I certainly did not find the prospect of her sleeping with other people and seeing if she could upgrade essentially as something I was comfortable with. I guess that probably enforced this idea of her being unheard and misunderstood as I was against it.

As an aside, things changed a little as time progressed and it became more an idea of she wants to move out and we could potentially have a fresh start. I even made a joke about a first date and she said she isn't ready for a first date "right now" (when she was still in our flat). She even said that up until she found out about the lie, she was seriously considering our future, but that now she never ever wants to get back together. I'm not sure if any of that is useful information, but I never really knew what to make of it to be honest. I think I just felt a bit trapped post breakup as I struggled hard with empathising with the idea of her sleeping with other people

[once removed]

Does that seem along the right lines of backing off, or is creating the opportunity to discuss in person something that supercedes this if done subtely? 

your gut is right  . she has explicitly stated she doesnt want to do an in person meeting. heed it.

i wouldnt use the flat stuff as an opportunity so to speak, but on a purely "she needs to know" basis.

[dumpedinlove]

your gut is right  . she has explicitly stated she doesnt want to do an in person meeting. heed it.

i wouldnt use the flat stuff as an opportunity so to speak, but on a purely "she needs to know" basis.

Makes sense, it's good to feel that I'm actually learning to think about this stuff in a more understanding way, albeit slowly, but I suppose any progress is good.

I was thinking about the last conversation I posted about, and how it kind of stung a lot when she was saying I don't understand her still, and that I never did. She even said it was like talking to a brick wall and I'm still the same person. That hurt a lot, and in that moment, I myself felt quite misunderstood. It came after the part in the conversation where she said there is nothing left to salvage, and I said I didn't think that a lifetime of love having learnt from both the lying and what led to the breakup is not nothing. She told me she doesnt feel the same way, and I agreed and told her I don't make the choice of whether it gets salvaged, but that doesn't mean there is nothing there.

I've had some time to think about that snippet of conversation a lot, and I find it very tricky to understand what the best approach would have been. I recognise in hindsight that talking about why there is something to salvage directly counters her view, and so is invalidating. But at the same time, whilst she is entitled to that view, I don't know if it's valid in terms of the whole truth of the situation. Instead, I consider there is something to salvage , but she is choosing to ignore that. In a way, we both feel as if we are correct. I've questioned if it would have been better to ask further as to what was driving that, but then I would imagine that could be met with thoughts of me yet again not understanding her, as she may wonder why would I even have to ask. I wonder if you had any advice on how this could have been handled differently from my end?

[Harri]

This thread reached the max post limit and has been split and locked.  Part 3 is located here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345026.msg13113334#msg13113334

Thank you.