How to reconcile "protective dishonesty" part 7

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344690.30

Who'se job is it to manage his stress? ( *hint- it's not yours)

Well, thanks to you all, I’ve been able to get a better handle on this. In fact, I told him that when he said it. And I told him I had stress too.  But he said his was worse. He has more pressure being primary breadwinner, but I’ve had to deal with him refusing to discuss anything, figure out what and how to pay things when no money is coming in, get food, home school and all household chores. He’s not been functioning until the last week or two when talk about reopening started happening.

So, yes, he needs to manage. And truthfully, I’ve probably made things worse. He explodes so next time I try to deal without him. Not to save him, but to save me from his reaction. Grow, grow the beast. So, I definitely contributed to the dynamic, but he remains responsible for having poor reactions.

Sex is a form of connection. It's interesting because for me, I need the emotional connection first, but for some, the sex comes first- then the connection. I am not an expert on this, but if someone can't connect well emotionally, sex might be the closest thing to that for them. It can lead to issues if you feel you are basically a sex provider, but if sex is taken out of the relationship altogether, I think that also leads to issues. It's pretty much an expression of the core issue- communication and intimacy. Sex may be the best he can do.

Deep breath. Okay, I see what you’re saying. I feel like a sex provider because you can’t scream disgust at me and then want to sleep with me. It’s confusing. I don’t know if I’ve just reached a point of no return. Idk if I can rally so quickly. Idk if I can deal with feeling used. But, I get what you’re saying and it is whole chicken or egg. No sex then no connection OR no connection then no sex. It wasn’t always this way...

When your H body shames you, it's more about him. My BPD mother started to tell me I was getting fat at puberty- the time a young girl naturally starts to fill out. She has her own issues with body image. It was complete projection. I look back at pictures of myself and I was not ever fat. Likely what your H is doing is projecting his own poor self image onto you. You don't have to buy into it no matter what size you are or what you are wearing.

Thank you. I’m chubby. I’m old too and I’ve had four kids. I don’t work out nonstop. I look the best I can and I’m okay with it. I was trying to do my best to make him feel comfortable and feel okay too. But it is only is so feel like I should be accepted in my own house. But I agree, there is some projection coupled with narcissism, it gets confusing.

Projection has explained a whole lot with him. Not that it’s everything but it sure cleared up a few things!

I have friends who don't have perfect bodies, but they are confident and look lovely. I think confidence and self acceptance is a part of being attractive no matter what size someone is.

I think you have every right to not be criticized for how you look- not by him, not by anyone. There's no positive function of this. It's mean, it's destructive. Also during this pandemic, a lot of people are getting out of shape, wearing sweat pants at home. This isn't a good thing but less activity, no access to working out. We need to not let this get out of hand, but also, this is a time to be kind to ourselves and to each other. Everyone's hair has grown out, we have roots showing if we color ours. Hardly any one is looking their best right now.

Try to eat healthy, get outside while you can, or learn a home work out, but this is your choice. It's hard to resist telling him to just shut up, but I'd say nothing to him when he starts. Your part is to believe you don't deserve this.

Big   to you for the words of encouragement. They mean a lot!

I can see in the mirror...I know what’s what. Don’t need to be told, scolded or in anyway reminded. My mother was heavy and my father held her hand everywhere they went. Everyday. I went shopping with him for her birthdays at the plus size stores. He spent so much care and time picking things out for her. I knew no other way. She was a lot heavier (she had a medical condition, I’m a stress eater) and he never saw it. Never. Just loved her and told her she was beautiful. I get none of that.

Thank you notwendy. Serious   to you.

[UBPDHelp]

A lot of information there..that's good..its' ok.  This is a great place to let it all out.

It is!  Basically all the issues I’m trying to balance in my head. And examples of why I’m stuck with whether effort forward (to try) is worth it or if it’s just beyond any value of trying to revive. I’m stuck because the happy glimmers are good, but I don’t believe they’re real or will last. I don’t think life isn’t about bumps and bruises. I had a lot of bad shakes in my days, but I don’t think your partner should treat you like the enemy. And I’m okay with not agreeing, but I should be allowed to have an opinion that is not stupid or of no value.

I'll try to sum it up.

You, on some level, expect him to be consistent.  As in either divorce or stay married.

Consistent, yes. Fair, yes. Respectful, yes. Not screaming vile things, yes.

But, consistent — divorce vs no divorce. I think I mentioned this, but in case, he never said no divorce. He said no fighting. He didn’t want to fight. I challenged name calling and belittling, etc. He agreed to not doing those and said he was wrong. He’s been better. I see it coming but he pulls back (comes half out and then he stops mid sentence). Is that better or evidence he can’t do it?  Idk.

So anyway, idk if he stills wants to divorce but just doesn’t want to fight. I believe that is where we are. He won’t do anything to entice me. He threw that in my lap years ago. Out and out told me I had to initiate. I don’t even remember what reason he gave, but it’s 99% true. But how do I get there now?  Idk.

Get yourself another cup of coffee and some of that wonderful baking (yes...I'm angling for a sample, D14 has been baking a lot lately, so I assure you I'm reliable food taster!) and think about what the impact of my observation is.

 

There’s always another cup of coffee in my future!  Be happy to send a sample...glad your daughter has a fun hobby of it!  Any favorites?  Now I’m angling for new ideas!

Thanks FF, your consistent honing skills are invaluable to me. Thank you, thank you!  back at ya!

[formflier]

While I don't think the connection/sex or sex/connection issue will ever be "solved", I would think that consistent application of a strategy would make it better.

Over to you how explicit you feel comfortable discussing this issue.

Perhaps even ask him for his thoughts on it, putting it in a "I want to be closer to you" way.

You know your hubby better than we do, is he ok with you expressing sexual interest in him?  Most guys would perk up at a "(fill in the blank" would increase my desire) convo...

Best,

FF

[formflier]

She actually made "turkish delight" a few times.  Wow...

As long as chaos doesn't overcome the timer, they always come out ok.  There are times though when "hey..what's that burning smell...".   

That's the cool think about baking.  You can try again.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

While I don't think the connection/sex or sex/connection issue will ever be "solved", I would think that consistent application of a strategy would make it better.

Over to you how explicit you feel comfortable discussing this issue.

Perhaps even ask him for his thoughts on it, putting it in a "I want to be closer to you" way.

You know your hubby better than we do, is he ok with you expressing sexual interest in him?  Most guys would perk up at a "(fill in the blank" would increase my desire) convo...

Hi FF, thank you. I’m okay discussing but it’s really the dynamic rather than the detail, if that makes sense.

I don’t remember exactly why he declared that I be the forever initiator, but as best I do, it was basically that there were some “scheduling” issues. I get up earlier. I need time to get my day in order and have been dealing with kids for years. He stays up later and I can’t make it as late, so we got into a kind of funk. Admittedly I felt he should be willing to not stay up late every night so we could have our time. He often wasn’t willing.  I would try to stay up later with him, but of course then I was exhausted and our time wasn’t as enjoyable for me.  

So when he declared I would be the initiator, it suddenly put a lot of pressure on me. And then if I didn’t initiate enough or at the right time, he would get upset. Of course this just created a cycle and although we’ve tried to correct, we just never get it to last. I’ve told him that it’s a lot of pressure, I’ve told him I need him to meet me halfway, but basically he is unwilling. And when we do connect, it starts a more, more, more cycle and I then feel that it’s never enough, which goes back to the ”provider” role.  So basically, it’s never to his expectation. And then I feel like I’m not enough and I’m sure he does too.

So even now if I can rally, in the back of my mind I know that it’s going to be starting a cycle and at face value, that is daunting. Then throw in the divorce comments, etc., and it feels almost insurmountable.

In some ways, so much of this feels circling around intimacy. It’s important, it’s a source of conflict and dysregulation.

Are BPD reactions/dysregulations stemming from one source for them generally?  So some hang up (poor previous experience?) coupled with unrealistic expectations at the root of all outbursts?

Idk. It’s frustrating because I now feel hurt and used in this regard and yet I think this is a big source of internal struggle for him. How do you resolve that?

[UBPDHelp]

She actually made "turkish delight" a few times.  Wow...

As long as chaos doesn't overcome the timer, they always come out ok.  There are times though when "hey..what's that burning smell...".   

That's the cool think about baking.  You can try again.

I love Turkish delight, although I’ve never tried making any. What kind does she make? Favorite?

So true about trying again...had that same experience more times than I can remember!

[Cat Familiar]

Do you experience any enjoyment from your intimacy with him, or does it feel more like a duty?

[UBPDHelp]

Do you experience any enjoyment from your intimacy with him, or does it feel more like a duty?

Hi Cat,

I’d say more duty these days. Intellectually I know it’s an integral part, but it is definitely hard under the circumstances. Truthfully, I don’t know if he wasn’t ranting, in close subject proximity, I might feel differently.

It seems obvious, but I’m curious what your takeaway is knowing this.

Thanks!

[formflier]

So...why did you "bite" when he let you know that you "had to" initiate.

Does that make any sense?

I FF charge thee UBPDhelp in forever more keeping our online friendship top notch.  Furthermore you are in charge of knowing when I want baked goods and mail them to me so they arrive just when I  want them.  And if I have to tell you again that you must make sure my milk is cold...

I mean...good grief...how difficult is this stuff for you.

And...

I want a shrubbery

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

So...why did you "bite" when he let you know that you "had to" initiate.

Does that make any sense?

Of course it makes sense. This happened years ago with small kids, four of them to boot, and before things got so bad. Not that there weren’t episodes that were more intense here or there, but mostly good. So, it was trying to manage the schedules. I disagreed at the time and said it needed to be split and organic but some consideration for the fact I get up early (not by choice usually).  Anyway, busy with four kiddos and realized that it had happened. I addressed a few times, we tried, but it always just seems to mostly fall to me still with him pretty unbending.

His focus on my past and I think he equates my initiating with showing he means more. It’s ridiculous, but I believe this is the case.

I FF charge thee UBPDhelp in forever more keeping our online friendship top notch.  Furthermore you are in charge of knowing when I want baked goods and mail them to me so they arrive just when I  want them.  And if I have to tell you again that you must make sure my milk is cold...

I mean...good grief...how difficult is this stuff for you.

And...

I want a shrubbery

Well, it seems pretty clear it is difficult. I am sorting through a 25 year marriage to understand how we got from where we started to how we got here. Most things were not big events, just slight movement of the line in the sand. Taken alone and deciding whether this issue was worthy of turning into a big deal.  But that’s how we get to the proverbial last straw. A whole lot of little straws...and that’s where I was when the almost full time dysregulations began in the last year. There was an upswing over about the last five years, but still would go months without any.

And, the effort to keep the peace. And dealing with my dad being sick and dying during this last year and yes, I feel pretty uncertain about a lot of things.

Sorry if I’ve worn out my welcome. Thanks for your input.

[formflier]

Hey...that was an effort at bringing some levity (that may have missed the mark) and also an effort to check your status on Monty Python...


The "lesson" I was trying to convey was that just because someone else announces how the relationship (sexual or otherwise) is going to go...doesn't mean you have to agree, act that way or even give it much thought.

Please start your week with some extra self care...and an extra cup of coffe.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

I understand it's difficult to make sense of a lot of this.    it was hard for me to realize that much of my relationship was not what I thought it was.   for example, I had never heard of mirroring.   I thought it was an amazing coincidence that me and my ex had so much in common.   Oh Duh.

His focus on my past and I think he equates my initiating with showing he means more. It’s ridiculous, but I believe this is the case.

we have talked about your H having strong characteristics of NPD.    still seems that way to me.   having you initiate feeds his ego.   having you initiate puts him in the one up position of power and control.    after all he can never be rejected if he never asks.   having you always initiate puts his needs for power, safety, control above the relationship's needs or your needs.

I am curious about one thing though.    You said it's ridiculous.    what if it isn't actually ridiculous but how he really feels and thinks?

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Hey...that was an effort at bringing some levity (that may have missed the mark) and also an effort to check your status on Monty Python...


The "lesson" I was trying to convey was that just because someone else announces how the relationship (sexual or otherwise) is going to go...doesn't mean you have to agree, act that way or even give it much thought.

Please start your week with some extra self care...and an extra cup of coffe.

I’ve worn out my own welcome. I’m tired of being cooped up with him. He’s still afraid of pandemic. There is no way to do a thing about that until he gets to a safer place himself. It may not be right to let him dictate, but he has a history of looking at who gave him a cold or sore throat. If he gets sick, he looks around to find who was sick before and unequivocally state they made him sick. (Holy he!, someone always started it, never intentional, but can’t be him...not even sure why the need to assign blame).

So, unfortunately all this time has given me too much time to think about all of these things. One realization leads to another and honestly I feel like I’m sitting with a whole pile of sh*+ in my lap and can’t believe I got here.

That and trying to pull enough security in my life to not deal with this.

Monty Python is more my H.  My mom was a huge comedy buff and I remember her rolling with laughter.  She’s been gone for over thirty years and I wasn’t really old enough to really get it, so I never really got into it.

[UBPDHelp]

I understand it's difficult to make sense of a lot of this.    it was hard for me to realize that much of my relationship was not what I thought it was.   for example, I had never heard of mirroring.   I thought it was an amazing coincidence that me and my ex had so much in common.   Oh Duh.

I see this some with H.  He will tell me he doesn’t value my opinion, but within minutes will share my view with someone else (which is weird because this is what he accuses me of doing and I’m always left baffled — seesawing of mirroring and projection).  I honestly think he believes it. He’s had trouble remembering things, which I’ve also been accused of. I do forget some stuff, sure, but not as much as he tries to say.

For example, the other day the delivery guy dropped packages and I commented that he’s been our guy for a long time and we need to give him a nice tip (we leave a little something now) when this is over because he has delivered a lot during pandemic. H was like it’s his job. Okay, dropped. Five minutes later he tells our daughter that the driver is amazing and he’s going to give him a big tip. Idk if he thinks it was his idea, doesn’t remember. I just don’t know but I can’t spend my day correcting these things.

What I would say he mirrors more than anything is what he learns from movies. He is a huge movie freak and I’ve seen blurred lines. And he will watch movie after movie about the first time. He watches other stuff, too, but a lot of focus there.  

we have talked about your H having strong characteristics of NPD.    still seems that way to me.   having you initiate feeds his ego.   having you initiate puts him in the one up position of power and control.    after all he can never be rejected if he never asks.   having you always initiate puts his needs for power, safety, control above the relationship's needs or your needs.

Agree. I would say NPD is way stronger. Does it come with dysregulation?  Violent dysregulation?  If so, maybe that’s all he is...

He is about power and as I’ve held stronger to my boundaries I see his power diminish. He’s tried to exert it on smaller stuff but I have same tools.

I am curious about one thing though.    You said it's ridiculous.    what if it isn't actually ridiculous but how he really feels and thinks?

Well, I would say he almost certainly thinks and feels this. The ridiculous part was more directed at how I felt.  I broke up with bf. We weren’t right for each other ultimately. I picked H, married him, had four kids with him so it’s ridiculous that I don’t think he was better for me (boy I make poor decisions, still wouldn’t have picked old bf, though).

But, I see the viewpoint as ridiculous but I understand he does not. And he is entitled to feel how he feels. I wish he would have told me this before we got married and had four kids together. I wish he’d been honest. I would never trade my kids, but...

Thanks BabyDucks.

[babyducks]

Agree. I would say NPD is way stronger. Does it come with dysregulation?  Violent dysregulation?  If so, maybe that’s all he is...

have you looked into the Lessons thread or the Library boards here?    I think it would be very helpful to you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90388.0

this is from that link:

people with NPD as a primary disorder have relatively good social functioning, better impulse control than a pwBPD, and are more capable of high, sustained achievement and will have a more successful work history than the person with Borderline Personality Disorder.

Both persons with NPDs and BPDs place great importance on attention; however, unlike borderlines, who "seek nurturing attention because they need it, narcissists feel they deserve admiring attention because of their superiority."

one of the diagnostic criteria for NPD is being preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.

and yes NPD has the same angry reaction to minor stimuli that BPD does.

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

have you looked into the Lessons thread or the Library boards here?    I think it would be very helpful to you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90388.0

this is from that link:

people with NPD as a primary disorder have relatively good social functioning, better impulse control than a pwBPD, and are more capable of high, sustained achievement and will have a more successful work history than the person with Borderline Personality Disorder.

Both persons with NPDs and BPDs place great importance on attention; however, unlike borderlines, who "seek nurturing attention because they need it, narcissists feel they deserve admiring attention because of their superiority."

one of the diagnostic criteria for NPD is being preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.

and yes NPD has the same angry reaction to minor stimuli that BPD does.

Hi BabyDucks,

Thanks for the info. I was poking around again yesterday and read the BPD vs. NPD thread, among a few others. I am leaning more towards NPD (he is very high functioning) with a good dose of BPD (and a smidge of antisocial, which he projects on me — another day, manageable concern).

It is all interesting, but exhausting. And admiring vs nurturing makes some sense when he gets annoyed about nurturing things (but other times complains when he doesn’t have laundry or leaves messes everywhere). Ideal love. Omg and this is now being forced/projected on kids. Having standards and teaching morals — good. Cyber stalking prospective bfs and finding minute things to discard them — not good.

I am frustrated with myself. I think so many things were subtle, move the line, subtle change, move the line and I just had no clue. I didn’t grow up worrying about censoring my thoughts/feelings or how I looked. It wasn’t that I was running wild, just behaving in my realm and expressing myself. I was accepted. It was okay. But, without adversity, I suppose I was so sheltered I didn’t know this much manipulation existed. Not making excuses just desperately trying to reconcile why I allowed this or couldn’t see what was happening.

Also, idk if you know or a theory exists, but what is the catalyst for NPD?  Like BPD stems from abandonment/fear of abandonment.  Which was perplexing as H always says he will leave and never speak to me again, which doesn’t seem he fears abandonment, rather he has abandoned several people.

My H was a mama’s boy until five and as his mom says, never looked back. My H said our son would be the same, but he’s twelve and although he loves dad, he still is a snuggly sweetheart with me. Now, I’m worried that my love may turn him into a narcissist.  Is there a genetic proclivity to these disorders?

I will do more reading...you just know so much.

Thank you so much.

[UBPDHelp]

and yes NPD has the same angry reaction to minor stimuli that BPD does.

Yikes, but some relief that if I’m leaning toward NPD, it can explain the outbursts, too.

I know I can’t diagnose...just want to understand.

Do I belong somewhere else?  Does the approach change?

More reading.

Thank you again for giving me more pieces to the puzzle.

[babyducks]

Do I belong somewhere else?  Does the approach change?

oh my goodness no, you don't belong anywhere else.    stay right here with us.   

Just keep in mind that approaches that worked  for other members here, might need to be tweaked to fit into your situation.   one size does not fit all.

[UBPDHelp]

oh my goodness no, you don't belong anywhere else.    stay right here with us.  

Just keep in mind that approaches that worked  for other members here, might need to be tweaked to fit into your situation.   one size does not fit all.

Thanks BabyDucks.  I know I can’t change him. I don’t even want to. The understanding is for me. It helps me gauge if I can manage. If I can accept living this way. If I can change anything in me (assume I’m willing to) that would make this manageable. I’m not sure there is a good way to continue.

If you’re willing/able can you share your thoughts on these...

Also, idk if you know or a theory exists, but what is the catalyst for NPD?  Like BPD stems from abandonment/fear of abandonment.  Which was perplexing as H always says he will leave and never speak to me again, which doesn’t seem he fears abandonment, rather he has abandoned several people.

My H was a mama’s boy until five and as his mom says, never looked back. My H said our son would be the same, but he’s twelve and although he loves dad, he still is a snuggly sweetheart with me. Now, I’m worried that my love may turn him into a narcissist.  Is there a genetic proclivity to these disorders?
I don’t want to take my younger two, who seem to be growing up with much more dysregulation, and be doing things that tip them into a PD, whether or not (but especially if) they are pre-disposed to it. My older two are a bit more uptight than peers, but generally unscathed. There wasn’t so much evident dysregulation until they were late teens/college.

Again, I will take responsibility to read/research, but, hey you’re part of that research  , do NPDs escalate and/or cycle like BPDs?  Is there a common catalyst? I think looking through an NPD lens may be important and adjust my approach a bit.

Lastly, is the prognosis for NPD any different than for BPD?

Thanks BabyDucks...glad I can stay cuz you all have been so supportive and helpful.

And, I heard you on the tweaking for each person’s situation. Wish there was one size fits all, but c’est la vie!

[formflier]

My wife is most likely more PPD than BPD, although now that I understand how to avoid "feeding" the paranoia...there could be a debate for my wife if she is more NPD than BPD.

I'm not in anyway trying to "discourage" figuring it out.  I am suggesting that the majority of the time should be spent understanding how "you" (us nons) "fit" in a relationship with a person that exhibits traits associated with these personality disorders.  Those traits (behaviors) cross over BPD/NPD/PPD to various extents.

So even if nobody here has experienced "the exact thing" that your hubby is doing, we can all help you understand the principles and likely emotions that are driving this behavior.

For instance, I've never run across anyone on these boards that had a wife (spouse) who believed they had an out of wedlock child, that they had actually found that child and that the child was named exactly the same as my wife in order to "sneak" the child onto our government insurance (tricare is what military members have)

Yet these forum were enormously helpful in understanding the kind of person who does that kind of thing.

Long winded way of saying "please stay put"!  We've got you!

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Ideal love. Omg and this is now being forced/projected on kids.

he does seem to have this thing about Ideal Love -  His,  Yours and so it does make sense it would now be projected onto the kids.

I am frustrated with myself. ../../..   Not making excuses just desperately trying to reconcile why I allowed this or couldn’t see what was happening.

the generally accepted principle here is that we pick partners that match us in some way.   are at the same level of maturity.    that feel normal to us in some way.    that represent an issue that is significant to us.     and that gives us the opportunity to work through our own stuff and grow.    my mother was bipolar,   and I ended up with a partner who was diagnosed bipolar.    boy that wasn't an accident was it?      that doesn't mean I was bad, or wrong, or foolish.   it did feel familiar.    it did feel like closure.     it did mean I had learning and growing to do.

Also, idk if you know or a theory exists, but what is the catalyst for NPD?  Like BPD stems from abandonment/fear of abandonment.  Which was perplexing as H always says he will leave and never speak to me again, which doesn’t seem he fears abandonment, rather he has abandoned several people.

this is pretty complicated and complex.   I kind of hesitate to dive into it because it can be confusing.     let's see how far we can get.

BPD doesn't stem from abandonment or fear of abandonment.   way deeper than that.    the theory is that as a child the pwBPD was not able to successfully bond with their parent/caregiver,... and/or  then was not able to successfully become independent from their parent /caregiver.    this generates the symptom of abandonment and fear of abandonment.

my Ex was abandoned by her mother... literally.   she was left home alone for days at a time with a box of frosted flakes and gallon of milk.  her mother came and went with no explanation or pattern.    her mother was not a source of caregiving, comfort or healthy parenting.  my Ex never bonded with her mother.   Mom was a frightening stranger with horrible abilities to hurt her.      as my Ex got older she was not able to successfully become independent from her mother.    it was a very enmeshed and dependent relationship until her mother died.   

now her siblings didn't develop any mental illness... in the same environment...if you read the posts on the parenting board you find parent and children with BPD who never experienced abuse or neglect yet still have the symptoms of the disorder.

the prevailing theory is that it is a complex and complicated mix of environment, genetics, and neurochemistry that is the catalyst for a personality disorder.     no one really knows for sure.     

the point for us here is not to become an Amateur Psychologist or Neurosurgeon as Skip often says.     the point is to develop an awareness of deep underlying personality traits that form our partner.     most of our partners here do not rise to the level of pathology.    some do.   being aware of the illness or the traits of the illness should lead us away from the ideas of 'this is a defect of character'  (it's not),   'these are deliberate and conscious choices' (they are often not)   'they can turn it on and off like a light switch' and 'going to therapy will cure them'  (also not accurate).

like Skip says:   

When asking differential questions about multiple personality disorders, it is important to understand why you are asking the question and how you intend to use the information. Without this perspective and focus, the data may be overwhelming, confusing and misleading.

still with me?   

Which was perplexing as H always says he will leave and never speak to me again, which doesn’t seem he fears abandonment, rather he has abandoned several people.

pwBPD fear abandonment and engulfment.    pwNPD are more likely to view people as objects, sources of supply and be more able to jump to new sources that meet their needs.

I know I can’t change him. I don’t even want to. The understanding is for me. It helps me gauge if I can manage. If I can accept living this way. If I can change anything in me (assume I’m willing to) that would make this manageable. I’m not sure there is a good way to continue.

having an honest understanding of what makes people tick... you and your husband... is important.      there are different communication approaches to a pwBPD than a person with BPD/NPD.   the tools might be the same or similar but the message would be different.

Lastly, is the prognosis for NPD any different than for BPD?

prognosis depends on the individual and their ability to be self aware, also their willingness to accept help.     typically areas that are very hard for people on this spectrum.     

now this is long winded.   

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

My wife is most likely more PPD than BPD, although now that I understand how to avoid "feeding" the paranoia...there could be a debate for my wife if she is more NPD than BPD.

I'm not in anyway trying to "discourage" figuring it out.  I am suggesting that the majority of the time should be spent understanding how "you" (us nons) "fit" in a relationship with a person that exhibits traits associated with these personality disorders.  Those traits (behaviors) cross over BPD/NPD/PPD to various extents.

One of the more interesting — and as it turns out much needed — takeaways I’ve garnered is to shift focus from him to me.

With that said, for me, I need to understand what I’m dealing with.  I know I can’t diagnose and so this is educated speculation at best. But he’ll NEVER go for therapy so there will never be an actual diagnosis.

I don’t want to get the brakes fixed if it’s the wipers that are broken.

So I’ve thrown out every instance I’ve been confused to try to see where the pieces fit.

Armed with the best info I have, I can then understand the possible paths forward. Some include bettering the relationship, including whether that is possible or determining if the “best” improvement possible would even be enough.

And, my gut (need to understand a lot more) is that NPD divorce may be easier (for me) to emotionally handle. I know none would be easy, but he may more easily detach to find greener pastures.  Idk, maybe I have too elementary understanding at this point. I’m a preparer and will look at every angle, multiple times. Probably didn’t need to tell you that!

Maybe some of the overthinking is years of second guessing and criticism. Eroded confidence in my ability to make a good decision.

I assure you I don’t want to land on a focus on him, just understanding so I have confidence in my path.

And, I recognize that I shouldn’t waste time and energy on what he’s doing.  I’m feeling like I am fairly confident in NPD with BPD secondary, and that this will help shape my next steps. 

So even if nobody here has experienced "the exact thing" that your hubby is doing, we can all help you understand the principles and likely emotions that are driving this behavior.

True. One of the more shocking, yet in some (kind of) twisted way more reassuring, things has been the similarities in stories. Shocking...and then some relief that others have experienced similar and found it strange, odd, off-putting, insulting, etc., etc.  I struggle with what is acceptable behavior. I suppose he dances a fine line, flirting with just enough that it puts me off kilter. But, then he gets pushed and bam. And then I question myself.

Throw in some gaslighting and rewriting history, and if you’re not paying attention, you end up where I am. Dazed and confused. Ha!

For instance, I've never run across anyone on these boards that had a wife (spouse) who believed they had an out of wedlock child, that they had actually found that child and that the child was named exactly the same as my wife in order to "sneak" the child onto our government insurance (tricare is what military members have)

That is intense. From the outside, laughable...and yet, nothing funny about it.

My H hasn’t accused of added insurance dependents, but he has thrown out that our oldest two could be my old boss’s and if we divorce, he’d do a dna test. I wasn’t even working when kid two was born, but I suppose we kept in touch. The younger two have had unknown fathers at times. I’ve told him he should get a dna test — let’s establish paternity for child support. I have not done one thing that could even remotely be perceived as slightly inappropriate EVER in our marriage.

So, you are not alone, albeit with your own unique “story”. I applaud her level of detail, nice touch. 

Yet these forum were enormously helpful in understanding the kind of person who does that kind of thing.

Yes

Long winded way of saying "please stay put"!  We've got you!

Thank you. My sanity is parked here, otherwise I forget where it is.

[UBPDHelp]

he does seem to have this thing about Ideal Love -  His,  Yours and so it does make sense it would now be projected onto the kids.

Ideal love. Aaah, imagine. People aren’t perfect and have wonderful quirks (and sometimes terribly abhorrent behavior), so how could a relationship be perfect? My dad used to say it was a matter of deciding whether, despite loving them, you could put up with their quirks. There were going to be quirks. Listening to the radio too loudly, not a deal breaker.  Frequenting brothels, deal breaker.

What seemed like protective father (especially, or singly, of daughters) has lingered into young adulthood. Finding fault after fault. It is literally found everywhere. Simplistically, he’s very much a glass half empty type of person. Except his glass is 90% empty, is two-day-old milk left out on the counter and has someone else’s spit in it.

the generally accepted principle here is that we pick partners that match us in some way.   are at the same level of maturity.    that feel normal to us in some way.    that represent an issue that is significant to us.     and that gives us the opportunity to work through our own stuff and grow.    my mother was bipolar,   and I ended up with a partner who was diagnosed bipolar.    boy that wasn't an accident was it?      that doesn't mean I was bad, or wrong, or foolish.   it did feel familiar.    it did feel like closure.     it did mean I had learning and growing to do.

I have to think about this. I can’t relate him to anyone growing up (atm, at least). I think he didn’t let out much of his NPD coupled with my total cluelessness and it seemed a good, equal match. My mom died about a year into our relationship and I think I clung to him as a steady constant. This seems like attachment, but not sure in the psychological definition. Breaking free from him would reopen/create wounds I couldn’t do. So, in the beginning when he walked a more conventional line, it was easy to continue down the path.

And, so NPD likely lay fairly dormant until his “ideal” life fell apart. Six years ago he lost a huge case that he had worked on for years. It would have been life changing and he should have won, but at the last minute it was pulled out. It was shocking and he was depressed (clinically, idk.  Observationally, definitely).  In short order, kids were off to college and that was added stress. And this is when the dysregulations upticked. Kind of makes sense...idk.

this is pretty complicated and complex.   I kind of hesitate to dive into it because it can be confusing.     let's see how far we can get.

BPD doesn't stem from abandonment or fear of abandonment.   way deeper than that.    the theory is that as a child the pwBPD was not able to successfully bond with their parent/caregiver,... and/or  then was not able to successfully become independent from their parent /caregiver.    this generates the symptom of abandonment and fear of abandonment.

This is very interesting. I mentioned a story his mom tells. H is the oldest, his mom was young (early twenties).  She says that he was a sweet kid but when he went to school, he never looked back. Never hugged or kissed her after. I thought this was an exaggeration but geesh, I suspect now it was exactly true. Early in our relationship my H said he couldn’t stand his mom. I mistook this as teenage angst. He wouldn’t elaborate but said one day I would understand. I thought he would tell me more at some point and just wasn’t ready to say. Anyway, he still despises her (by his words) and yet she comes on vacation and holidays, etc.  

Knowing what you’ve shared, these stories take on new meaning.  

my Ex was abandoned by her mother... literally.   she was left home alone for days at a time with a box of frosted flakes and gallon of milk.  her mother came and went with no explanation or pattern.    her mother was not a source of caregiving, comfort or healthy parenting.  my Ex never bonded with her mother.   Mom was a frightening stranger with horrible abilities to hurt her.      as my Ex got older she was not able to successfully become independent from her mother.    it was a very enmeshed and dependent relationship until her mother died.

That is both scary and sad. So sad.    

now her siblings didn't develop any mental illness... in the same environment...if you read the posts on the parenting board you find parent and children with BPD who never experienced abuse or neglect yet still have the symptoms of the disorder.

the prevailing theory is that it is a complex and complicated mix of environment, genetics, and neurochemistry that is the catalyst for a personality disorder.     no one really knows for sure.  

Wow. I get this.    

the point for us here is not to become an Amateur Psychologist or Neurosurgeon as Skip often says.     the point is to develop an awareness of deep underlying personality traits that form our partner.     most of our partners here do not rise to the level of pathology.    some do.   being aware of the illness or the traits of the illness should lead us away from the ideas of 'this is a defect of character'  (it's not),   'these are deliberate and conscious choices' (they are often not)   'they can turn it on and off like a light switch' and 'going to therapy will cure them'  (also not accurate).

I follow this...you’ve challenged me to see this many times.

One question...why does it appear to be turned on/off if they can’t?  I see H visibly hold back sometimes. Is it on, but sometimes he can just contain it?  Is that the distinction?

like Skip says:  
still with me?  

pwBPD fear abandonment and engulfment.    pwNPD are more likely to view people as objects, sources of supply and be more able to jump to new sources that meet their needs.

Object — responsible for his stress, provide sex, clean his messes, etc.

Discarded — his dad and his best friend. His first gf. Of course, I’ve also discarded people. Just as terrible, even if motive was different.

having an honest understanding of what makes people tick... you and your husband... is important.      there are different communication approaches to a pwBPD than a person with BPD/NPD.   the tools might be the same or similar but the message would be different.

He does respond better if you start conversation with an accolade. Idk if that’s something I want to keep doing. I feel like it grows his narcissism.

prognosis depends on the individual and their ability to be self aware, also their willingness to accept help.     typically areas that are very hard for people on this spectrum.  

Flickers of self awareness, but never sustained. Will never accept help. Has stated this in no uncertain terms. As such, prognosis is poor.  

now this is long winded.    

Perfectly insightful. Thank you, thank you!

[babyducks]

One question...why does it appear to be turned on/off if they can’t?  I see H visibly hold back sometimes. Is it on, but sometimes he can just contain it?  Is that the distinction?

did he turn it off, did he hold it back or did he pick another dysfunctional tool out of the tool box?

what was the motivation for the holding back?    was it because he understood it was hurtful,  inappropriate,  did he have empathy for you?     or was it because he senses the old tool, verbal abuse isn't getting him what he wants and needs and is casting about for another?

if your H offloads negative emotions by verbally abusing,   if he lifts his self esteem by putting you down, and you stop responding does that mean his need for verbal abuse is gone?   or is it coming out in another way?   is his need to build himself up turned off or is it being fed by being in a more validating environment?

'ducks

[formflier]

I don’t want to get the brakes fixed if it’s the wipers that are broken.

 

Let's work with your analogy...

Here is the thing maybe the wipers are broken and aren't fixable...they just aren't.  

You are still going to be better and safer driving a car with better/best brakes.  Maybe that means you have to slow down or not drive in a rainstorm...which sucks...but it is what it is.

Don't let a pathway to "something better" pass you by because you are still trying to figure out "the most important thing to fix" or "is this really broken".

Even worse...what if the wipers work some of the times and some of the times they don't.  You kinda never know.

Is it a mechanical problem, or electrical or do they work as designed, yet it was "just" a poor design.

Your bottom line:  I can't count on the wipers...so I will...  

Oh...even better.  I can't count on the wipers and the wipers refuse to see a mechanic...so I will.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

The same old playbook.

DNA tests.  My wife was all set to get this child tested and "prove" FF was really the harem master that she "knew".  He would finally meet his demise.  Poor FF.

FF was all wrapped up in how this would set me free because it would "prove" that I didn't have a child with another woman.

Right before (like days) this was somehow going to go forward she announces that she accepts the child isn't mine but I still had sex with her.

Notice how somewhere she "knew" she didn't want to see the proof either...there is no test for "you did it with her"

Reality:  There was a militant breastfeeder at McDonalds play land.  As in letting it all hang out/ with no cover.  My wife's name is unique.  So when she called her baby by my wife's name we all perked up.  She briefly spoke to her (yes..while all hanging out) and confirmed the name.

Had I validated my wife's distress and no "bit" on defending myself it would have likely died out quickly.

At the time I didn't have the tools/experience to deal with this level of dysfunction.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

did he turn it off, did he hold it back or did he pick another dysfunctional tool out of the tool box?

what was the motivation for the holding back?    was it because he understood it was hurtful,  inappropriate,  did he have empathy for you?     or was it because he senses the old tool, verbal abuse isn't getting him what he wants and needs and is casting about for another?

if your H offloads negative emotions by verbally abusing,   if he lifts his self esteem by putting you down, and you stop responding does that mean his need for verbal abuse is gone?   or is it coming out in another way?   is his need to build himself up turned off or is it being fed by being in a more validating environment?

Omg, yes!  I consider myself of normal intelligence and mostly social adept (on the more reserved side, exacerbated by lots of criticism) and yet I cannot wrap my head/verbalize this. These feel like exact interpretations.

Not second guessing my feelings vs my cognition and the explanations help. The funny thing is with understanding (rudimentary as mine is), you can see the behaviors SO much more clearly. So clearly that I’ve taken a step back to make sure I wasn’t seeing things. Wow.

Thanks BabyDucks...you have a gift, truly.

[UBPDHelp]

Let's work with your analogy...

Here is the thing maybe the wipers are broken and aren't fixable...they just aren't.  

You are still going to be better and safer driving a car with better/best brakes.  Maybe that means you have to slow down or not drive in a rainstorm...which sucks...but it is what it is.

Don't let a pathway to "something better" pass you by because you are still trying to figure out "the most important thing to fix" or "is this really broken".

Even worse...what if the wipers work some of the times and some of the times they don't.  You kinda never know.

This is a sticking point for me right now (I probably have a few too many rn), but his behavior has been less intense. It’s more subtle — withdrawal, small jabs, more often rather than huge explosions. Are these tolerable? Maybe before if I didn’t experience the last year, they might have been manageable with better tool usage by me. But nice moments long for the what ifs. Been there so many times, loss of knowledge of what’s a normal, healthy relationship and I question my assessment. A little fear of the future and mixes to a lot of uncertainty.

But, I feel like I’m comfortable with my understanding and pushing for clarity has helped me get there. The pieces largely make sense and “fit”. There are a few missing pieces but I can see the big picture.

So, yes, time to focus on what the heck I’m going to do. I’m sure I’ll spiral as incidents arise — fair warning. But, I’m very much a believer of not living in the past. The good, the bad, the ugly shape who we are. I pick off the junk I no longer want and be the person I want to be.

Is it a mechanical problem, or electrical or do they work as designed, yet it was "just" a poor design.

Your bottom line:  I can't count on the wipers...so I will...  

Oh...even better.  I can't count on the wipers and the wipers refuse to see a mechanic...so I will.

Those wipers have caused a lot of heartache, it’s time to take back my future.

Thanks FF...the analogies do help.

[UBPDHelp]

The same old playbook.

DNA tests.  My wife was all set to get this child tested and "prove" FF was really the harem master that she "knew".  He would finally meet his demise.  Poor FF.

FF was all wrapped up in how this would set me free because it would "prove" that I didn't have a child with another woman.

Right before (like days) this was somehow going to go forward she announces that she accepts the child isn't mine but I still had sex with her.

Notice how somewhere she "knew" she didn't want to see the proof either...there is no test for "you did it with her"

Reality:  There was a militant breastfeeder at McDonalds play land.  As in letting it all hang out/ with no cover.  My wife's name is unique.  So when she called her baby by my wife's name we all perked up.  She briefly spoke to her (yes..while all hanging out) and confirmed the name.

Had I validated my wife's distress and no "bit" on defending myself it would have likely died out quickly.

At the time I didn't have the tools/experience to deal with this level of dysfunction.

Classic. Only because you seem in a good place with it do I say that.

It is funny how they back down when their truth can be challenged.

My favorite part is your baby mama would chose your wife’s name for her baby. Sure, a lot of mistresses want to call out to their child day in and day out their “arch nemesis’s” name.  Makes total sense.

And, how could you possibly “prove” you did or didn’t? 

The subtleties of the accusations I often miss, but in hindsight seem so deliberate. For me, most notably is how H tells me how I think or feel. Very manipulative.  I end up correcting the perception (a lot of wasted time) without addressing the real issue — that he’s stating my feelings! 

For me, I don’t want to play games. I don’t want to defend how I feel about going to the store now vs in an hour or why I’m making casserole for dinner and not chicken.

So many examples. My H’s ploy is definitely to misdirect focus so you end up defending feelings that aren’t even yours. At the end you’re frustrated and just glad it’s over and have now forgotten the real problem.

I do better now and don’t get baited and maintain boundaries, for the most part. It is easier to see, although not quite understood.

I am responsible for my path forward.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi. Forgive me for not providing links, but I am using my phone and don't have much time.

It may have been suggested before but if you can get the book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft, I think it would give you a lot of insight into how the attitudes and beliefs of an abusive person drive their behavior (physical, verbal, and/or emotional abuse). There is a review of it in the library section here.

I just read it for the first time even though my relationship has been done for over two years. It breaks down the tactics, or dysfunctional tools that people with abusive mindsets use in romantic relationships, even the ones that are being used when it seems like they are trying to "be good". Also gives a list of the attitudes and beliefs that would have to be challenged in therapy for real change to happen and what it looks like when real change is or isn't evident.

On the subject of figuring out a diagnosis: my ex ticks almost all the boxes for BPD and aspd and all the boxes for PPD. Yet, he was diagnosed with ocpd and "depression with psychotic features" instead, with the exception of a possible BPD diagnosis from the last court ordered psych eval. So sometimes even professionals have a hard time figuring out what diagnosis fits best.