Getting ready

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm new here but have struggled in my marriage for over 20 years. Our marriage has gone through several stages but has always been dysfunctional.  We have two children together - 13yo boy and 15yo girl.  I believe that my husband is BPD and NPD.  He has not been officially diagnosed with either one. 

The first stage of our marriage (1999-approx 2004) I was confident, assertive and maybe a bit entitled (how I was brought up). I was very taken aback by his accusations of me being rude, mean, and selfish.  I know that in my immaturity (I was in my early 20s) that I was very reactive and not very receptive to his complaints. 

The second stage (approx 2004-2013) marked the time of our marriage that I was desperately trying to please and woo him to no avail.  It kept things fairly managed relationally but I lost myself and sight of my values in the process.  In 2007, I left my full-time career to care for my young children, which seemed to narrow my world a bit too.

The third stage (approx 2013-2017), I realized how empty my marriage felt and how controlled I felt and how it didn't feel right or good.  I couldn't look back and identify exactly how it happened but wanted to find my way back to confidence and my values.  In 2015, I also returned to full-time work and that helped me see myself more clearly.  I read a lot about relationships, starting going to counseling, and worked hard on my validation and empathy skills.

The fourth stage (approx 2017-present), my husband balked by saying that he couldn't "hold my anxiety" anymore.  Granted, I am a naturally anxious person but have been working on that in therapy to handle my own anxiety and have gotten feedback from various trusted sources that I have improved in this area.  Ever since his declaration, he has increasingly abandoned our relationship emotionally to the point that he now sleeps in the guest room and barely speaks to me outside of household logistics.

We started therapy in January 2019 and ended up switching therapists December 2019.  We are now seeing our therapist 2x/week at my request.  Every time we seem to make progress, he seems to sabotage it and declare that everything is just as bad or worse than it has ever been.  It is excruciating to hear every session how mistreated he feels by me.   And when he has a moment of reassurance for me (“I do love you and want to work this out”), it is followed the same or next day with being told how mean and selfish I am.  He is also unable to hear me or my concerns without hearing them as accusations and become defensive and hurtful.

I have found that our relationship dynamics are really taking a toll on me and our kids.  I don’t know what to do next but am considering taking a drastic measure of temporary separation, separation, and/or filing for divorce.

Am I missing something?  Is there any advice you can offer me?

[mmrwto]

I'm new here but have struggled in my marriage for over 20 years. Our marriage has gone through several stages but has always been dysfunctional.  We have two children together - 13yo boy and 15yo girl.  I believe that my husband is BPD and NPD.  He has not been officially diagnosed with either one. 

The first stage of our marriage (1999-approx 2004) I was confident, assertive and maybe a bit entitled (how I was brought up). I was very taken aback by his accusations of me being rude, mean, and selfish.  I know that in my immaturity (I was in my early 20s) that I was very reactive and not very receptive to his complaints. 

The second stage (approx 2004-2013) marked the time of our marriage that I was desperately trying to please and woo him to no avail.  It kept things fairly managed relationally but I lost myself and sight of my values in the process.  In 2007, I left my full-time career to care for my young children, which seemed to narrow my world a bit too.

The third stage (approx 2013-2017), I realized how empty my marriage felt and how controlled I felt and how it didn't feel right or good.  I couldn't look back and identify exactly how it happened but wanted to find my way back to confidence and my values.  In 2015, I also returned to full-time work and that helped me see myself more clearly.  I read a lot about relationships, starting going to counseling, and worked hard on my validation and empathy skills.

The fourth stage (approx 2017-present), my husband balked by saying that he couldn't "hold my anxiety" anymore.  Granted, I am a naturally anxious person but have been working on that in therapy to handle my own anxiety and have gotten feedback from various trusted sources that I have improved in this area.  Ever since his declaration, he has increasingly abandoned our relationship emotionally to the point that he now sleeps in the guest room and barely speaks to me outside of household logistics.

We started therapy in January 2019 and ended up switching therapists December 2019.  We are now seeing our therapist 2x/week at my request.  Every time we seem to make progress, he seems to sabotage it and declare that everything is just as bad or worse than it has ever been.  It is excruciating to hear every session how mistreated he feels by me.   And when he has a moment of reassurance for me (“I do love you and want to work this out”), it is followed the same or next day with being told how mean and selfish I am.  He is also unable to hear me or my concerns without hearing them as accusations and become defensive and hurtful.

I have found that our relationship dynamics are really taking a toll on me and our kids.  I don’t know what to do next but am considering taking a drastic measure of temporary separation, separation, and/or filing for divorce.

Am I missing something?  Is there any advice you can offer me?

[ForeverDad]

So things turned worse around 2004?  Could the arrival of the children have been a factor for that change?  That would have been the end of a couple's marriage and the start of expanded family.  Did he feel he lost you then?  After all, a sense of abandonment, whether merited or not, is a recognized issue for Borderline PD.

In my own life, marriage was more or less manageable during the first decade.  Yes, she was developing triggers that impacted our marriage, I even left my two decades of volunteer work due to the conflict she was having with others.  When she still seemed distressed, I made the mistake to think that having a child would make her have a better outlook on life while joining him to discover life.  I admit, I was clueless.  She instead relived her childhood stress through our son.  That's when I learned having children does not fix serious problems, it just makes everything vastly more complicated.

So baby makes three... but in her mind, or so it seemed, it was a choice of love my husband or love my kid.  And I lost.  Not at first but I could discern that gap between us growing with each rant and rage episode.

[mmrwto]

It is totally possible.  I guess my view is that I unfortunately chose him over my kids after we had them.

We had significant problems before kids. We discussed having children before being married and in the beginning of marriage, but at about 2 years in he changed his mind and didn't want kids.  I was devastated.  I was miserable on birth control (super sensitive to the hormone levels at the time, it was before low hormone options).  We decided to try natural family planning (avoiding the fertile period) and we ended up pregnant with our daughter at about 4 years in.

[livednlearned]

It is excruciating to hear every session how mistreated he feels by me.   And when he has a moment of reassurance for me (“I do love you and want to work this out”), it is followed the same or next day with being told how mean and selfish I am.

People with a PD are different. There is more of a win-lose modus operandi that becomes lose-lose if the pwBPD senses you are pulling ahead somehow. Better if you both lose than suffer the deep injury of having you eke out some kind of advantage.

In my experience there are so many micro-adjustments being made by the pwBPD in order to maintain a sense of self and unfortunately this can happen at our expense. What we feel is this whiplash or push/pull type of control that is confounding, exhausting, abusive, senseless (to us).

Your H may also may have such an arrested sense of self that he cannot process his own negative emotions, so he projects them on you. He may sense his own meanness or selfishness, find it too impossible to process, so deals with it by projecting those qualities onto you where he can try to make sense of them from a safe distance. None of this will be evident to him because his sense of self is sort of fragmented into parts. You can only understand it because bringing attention to it will simply make him feel defective.

He is also unable to hear me or my concerns without hearing them as accusations and become defensive and hurtful

A lot of people with BPD have a hard time with mentalization, which is the ability to understand the perspective of others. He probably cannot get past his own retraumatization of victimhood when you tell him what you need, and cannot understand how his behaviors impact you.

I have found that our relationship dynamics are really taking a toll on me and our kids.

What kind of relationship do they have with you and their dad? It's tough watching the kids suffer, isn't it? I did the same thing you did and (unwittingly) put my ex's needs ahead of our son. It's something I still struggle to forgive myself for  

I don’t know what to do next but am considering taking a drastic measure of temporary separation, separation, and/or filing for divorce

I would start with asking yourself if marriage counseling is helping. Do you have an individual counselor in addition to the MC?

Does your H talk about divorce?

[ForeverDad]

Only you can make the decision on how to address the dysfunction in your marriage.  Our experience has been that if it is that sufficiently dysfunctional or unhealthy that you can't limp along with an inadequate remedy.  Sadly, separation or Legal Separation has limited benefit.  Things may seem to get better but it may be that the distance apart just makes the discord seem less while the issues are still there.  The real solution is for the disordered person to start meaningful therapy and apply it diligently - long term - in life, thinking and perceptions.  That is the real 'fix'.  Failing that, the prognosis isn't good.

So, is there something that would give incentive for the spouse to seek and comply with meaningful therapy?  Clearly you've been dealing with this for quite some time and you haven't been able to improve things.  Not your fault, the vast majority here have faced the same dilemma.

Most who have ended up here on the Family Law board have tried the smarter communication skills, etc taught on our other boards here but problems still remained.  As for you, are they severe enough for you to end the relationship?  About the separation thought, here's one of my prior posts.

I spoke to my then newly hired divorce attorney about a legal separation.  He said it wouldn't work with conflict.  The close relationship is what triggers the sensitization, the enabling to Blame Shift and poor behaviors.  (BPD is most evident in the closest of relationships and with Separation you are still married.)

He had been a police officer then became an attorney.  He said in his 17 years of practice (that was in 2006) that he had only handled two separations.  He said the main reason one couple did LS instead of D was simply because the wife had a chronic disease and LS allowed her to remain on his health plan (while they lived their separate lives).

When there is such a high level of discord and conflict as found in our sort of cases, you can't do a halfway solution, the cord has to be cut.  Not that we want to, it's just the only practical option left.  Of course, the key and deciding question is whether the disordered and acting-out spouse will set aside the Denial of Responsibility, stop Blame Shifting and apply intensive therapy in life, thinking, perceptions and behaviors for the long haul.

[mmrwto]

Wow - thanks, livednlearned and ForeverDad, for your thoughts.  Good thoughts to chew on.  These are my answers to your questions.

In my experience there are so many micro-adjustments being made by the pwBPD in order to maintain a sense of self and unfortunately this can happen at our expense. What we feel is this whiplash or push/pull type of control that is confounding, exhausting, abusive, senseless (to us).

I totally resonate with this.  If something happens that H is really proud of, he will take full credit as if no one helped or supported him.  If H feels something isn't right, it is always someone else's fault.  I have gone with very little praise or perceived value in our relationship since the beginning.

What kind of relationship do they have with you and their dad?

My kids have struggled, especially my 15yo daughter.  She is now in adolescent DBT to work on her impulsive and hurtful behaviors towards herself and others.  My 13yo son has shown that he is hurting in his own ways but does not externalize his feelings as much as my daughter.  I have prioritizing my relationships with them lately over the one with my husband since he seems to pit me against them.  They both seem to be leaning into my desire to connect with them.

I would start with asking yourself if marriage counseling is helping.

I guess I feel like things are getting worse for our relationship but I think that it is getting worse because he might be coming head-on with his issues.  Isn't the old adage that things will get worse before they get better? <shrug>

Do you have an individual counselor in addition to the MC?

I started my own therapy in Nov 2018 when I realized that I had been convinced over the previous 10+ years my H's narrative that I was his abuser and villain, leaving me feeling completely empty and worthless. I have been building my self-confidence and learning how to hold my own narrative even though it is significantly different than his.  It's been hard work after a couple decades of being told that I am mean and selfish.  I have done individual therapy before but it was always focused before on how to be a better wife.

So, is there something that would give incentive for the spouse to seek and comply with meaningful therapy?

I don’t know… He has trouble even admitting that he has issues to work out.  All our problems are attributed to me and my mistreatment of him and our family.  I have stopped believing that narrative (although I still believe there are many ways that I could have and can do better).  And if his narrative about me continues to be negative and accusatory, I need to leave for my own sanity and health.  He is actively participating in MC (1.5 years now) and in my daughter’s DBT as a parent (3 months now).  So, I’m trying to wait a little while to see what comes from those.  I see small changes but I never know what to trust.

Thank you so much for interacting with me.  Honestly, writing all of this out is exhausting and troubling, but it helps me see the big picture in a much clearer way.

[ForeverDad]

When I asked, So, is there something that would give incentive for the spouse to seek and comply with meaningful therapy?  I didn't say there was something that would give him incentive.  After all these years, our collective experience is he's unlikely to be willing to change or improve sufficiently.  However, just in case, it's good to consider what might work even if the odds are against it.

[mmrwto]

When I asked, So, is there something that would give incentive for the spouse to seek and comply with meaningful therapy?  I didn't say there was something that would give him incentive.  After all these years, our collective experience is he's unlikely to be willing to change or improve sufficiently.  However, just in case, it's good to consider what might work even if the odds are against it.

Thanks, ForeverDad, for the clarification.  I have a couple of boundaries, a commitment, and an ultimatum in play right now that I am hoping will turn the tide on our relationship.  Our MC is aware of all of these.

Boundaries: 
* Generalizations and character assassination are not acceptable in his complaints.  He cannot call me unkind, mean, or selfish without pointing to a specific situation.  (This one has caused H to bring next to no complaints to me and his generalized feelings seem to collect and fester. Sigh... )
* H must work on putting his hurt and frustrations in the back seat when I come to him with my hurts and concerns.  His opportunity to voice his will come at a different time.  (This is a new one and still being worked out...)

Commitment:
I have also committed to H to live out my values by interacting with his complaints about specific situations with a repair attempt that is one the following: an apology if I was wrong, a reframe if it was a misunderstanding, or a pause with a promise to return to the conversation later.  (This one has led to some success.  Unfortunately, the times where this goes well are almost never remembered and the times that it doesn't are the ones that get brought up in MC presented in a way to make me look like a mean a-hole.)

Ultimatum:
Lastly, I leveled an ultimatum in January 2020 that I am looking for significant change in our marriage by January 2021 or I'm going to have to call it quits.  H has brought it up a few times now ("I feel like a clock is ticking on how much time we have to work on our marriage." To which I reply, "Yes, a clock is ticking on making sufficient progress for me to feel comfortable staying in this marriage."  Is this what you mean by incentive?

By the way... should I be bringing the first half of this response to a different discussion board?  This seems more the "working toward resolution" instead of getting ready for a split.  The ultimatum is what I'm preparing for though.  I need to have my ducks in a row to be taken seriously when the time comes.  That is what I need help with from this board.  Is this the right place?

[livednlearned]

This is the right board for preparing for divorce. I do think the bettering board is a good place to have your other foot in because the skills we learn to stay in a difficult marriage are healthy, period. I grew so much after my divorce because of what I learned from people on that board. You have kids together and it's more than likely you'll be in your husband's life for a long time to come. And the bettering skills are helpful for kids, too.

I had to learn how to manage emotions in a healthy way, almost from scratch. The thing that ended my marriage was a newfound commitment to help my son manage his emotions in healthy ways. Doing so is pretty much what broke the marriage because my ex was so threatened by even the slightest embrace of my son's genuine emotions and how he felt (sometimes seeing reality different than my ex) and it wasn't safe much less possible for the two realities to co-exist.

It sounds like your husband is able to tolerate a certain amount of self reflection. Do you have a sense one way or another whether he is also preparing for divorce? Or do you think he's mostly crossing his fingers and hoping that the worst won't happen?

[mmrwto]

It sounds like your husband is able to tolerate a certain amount of self reflection. Do you have a sense one way or another whether he is also preparing for divorce? Or do you think he's mostly crossing his fingers and hoping that the worst won't happen?

I think one of the reasons we are 20 years in is because he goes in and out of being reasonably self-aware.  I don't *think* he is prepping for divorce but maybe he is and I don't see it.  I think he has been hoping that I will see the error of my ways and repent.  He has told me that he is ready to live in a marriage where we don't have a connection.  I think he is used to living a life of suffering, starting in his childhood.

I will start engaging on the "bettering" board too.  Thanks!