Novel "Silent Treatment" for TWO Days Now

[WitzEndWife]

Hi all. I know that the "silent treatment" is common with persons with BPD, but my uBPDh has never even flirted with this kind of thing before until now. Our politics are very different and he has been harassing and harassing me with his POV trying to get me to "admit" that he is right - I'm really still not sure what I'm supposed to admit he's right about, but that's beside the point. For the most part, I've been really good about not taking the bait, about stating that I don't want to talk about politics anymore and avoiding doing so, but he has caught me off guard a few times and we've had some nasty arguments about it. He's threatened divorce several times, even though I know he'll never go through with it.

Suddenly, starting two nights ago, he stopped. He completely stopped talking to me and started sleeping on the couch. We have a second bedroom, so sleeping on the couch is kind of unnecessary, but I'm sure he's got some motive behind it. I'm actually appreciating this relief at not being harassed, but I'm also anxious, waiting for the other "shoe" to drop, as this behavior is highly unlike him and likely trying to elicit some sort of reaction out of me.

Does anyone know why BPDs use the silent treatment and why it's so common? Also, why would someone who LOVES to argue suddenly become stony?

[Cat Familiar]

The sleeping on the couch when you have a second bedroom seems kinda dramaqueeny and perhaps the silent treatment is another extension of that.

[WitzEndWife]

Yeah, I'm thinking it is. He has a tendency toward drama queeny-ness, as you know. I'm sure he'll get tired of it eventually. I just hope that's when he's ready to be chill and not keep on with this harassment cycle. I realize that it's a result of me not holding boundaries, but I mean, good lord, I don't know if anyone would be able to withstand inescapable harassment all day long without saying something. I'm thinking of maybe traveling to see my parents for a bit. That can help me wait out the drama, I guess.

[Notwendy]

I'd just let him do his thing- sulking, ST, and go on with whatever you have plans to do.

I think this is a matter of poor boundaries on his part. Somehow, if you don't agree with him, you are rejecting him personally, and he sees it as personal.

Discussing politics these days is so volatile. I am observing "friends" on FB posting their opinions, then everyone seems to argue about them. Then they "unfriend" each other.

This then leaves people in their own camps, making posts and only with people who agree with them and reinforce their posts. Disagree- you get unfriended. Maybe this is the social media version of the ST?


These are people who don't have PD's. Honestly, I don't even want to discuss politics these days with anyone- there's no way it's going to go well- unless each person is in agreement with each other. I can't even imagine that a discussion with someone with BPD, and disordered thinking- is going to lead to any kind of resolution.

I think a good boundary might be "no political discussions". If he "baits" you- then repeat " I don't think I am up to a discussion on politics" over and over until he gets bored.

[formflier]

but I'm sure he's got some motive behind it. 

It's doubtful there is a "motive", it's more likely a "reaction" to some issue that is emotionally troubling him.  I would further guess he is unlikely to be able to describe it accurately or he is likely more comfortable "projecting" it onto you.

I don't know if this changes things for you, but I would resist any notion that he has thought this through.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Last night was unusual for me in that I went to bed after my wife.  Not sure why I had a late nigh burst of productivity...but I did.

Anyway she is sound asleep and a video is still playing on her phone.  Essentially a big racist rant about how protesters are ruining our country and and and...

She very easily slips into that camp.

I listened for about 15-20 seconds and turned it off and went to sleep.

How on earth you can expect to  get a good nights sleep when you are listening to that kind of stuff as you doze off...I have no idea.

It's been years since I've tried to have a discussion about politics with my wife on something we disagree on.  Thankfully...on the broad issues we align.    We are both generally "conservative", I've got a bit of libertarian in me too.

She easily slips over into "alt right"...that stuff is hard to work through. 

I love good debates on politics, especially with thoughtful people who believe things other than what I believe.  I wish I could do this with my wife...but just not in the cards.

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Thanks FF and Notwendy. My family always discussed politics around the dinner table, so I really grew up listening to it. And when extended family would come, everyone would have some kind of discourse, but I think the difference is that we all respected each other and, even if we got loud about something, it didn't extend to, "Your stupid or immoral, so I hate you."

My H is listening to a lot of that alt. right stuff; he stays up all night listening to it. It's horribly upsetting because he wasn't like that at all when we first met. He was a libertarian overall and did not like all of the standing conservative politicians because of their stances on human rights and war. Over time, though, he got "red pilled" - as they call it. Now it's Fox News 24/7 and random YouTube videos.

I know he is now seeing all of this as his identity and my rejection of it as a rejection of him. The thing is, it doesn't align with my values and, as time goes on and the situation gets more insane, I feel like I can't in good conscience look my nonwhite (I'm white) friends in the eye and feel like I'm supporting them if I am still married to this person. And not talking about politics probably will be best for the time being, but long term I feel like it's just sticking my head in the sand and trying to ignore the Archie Bunker in my home.

I actually hope that this will give me the emotional push I need to finally end this. The main thing that is holding me back is kicking him out when he has nowhere to go and no money. I know that's not MY problem, in theory, but it's easier said than done.

[formflier]

I actually hope that this will give me the emotional push I need to finally end this. The main thing that is holding me back is kicking him out when he has nowhere to go and no money. I know that's not MY problem, in theory, but it's easier said than done.

You've had this feeling/thought for a long time..right? 

Does it come and go or is it fairly constant?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

A common thread with those who embrace beliefs like that is the politics of grievance—they feel victimized. Interesting how that fits with the victimhood that people with personality disorders feel.

[Notwendy]

I'm also thinking of the tendency towards "black and white" thinking. While we may prefer one political side, I think ( I hope) people can also see that neither one is perfectly all good or perfectly all bad. Our choice at the polls is over the party that fits us best, but rarely is there a "perfect" party (IMHO)

But if someone is all in, thinking their side is flawless, then any critical comment might feel like a personal rejection.

[AskingWhy]

WEW, your H and mine seem out of the same cloth.

My uBPD H will dysregulate and threatened divorce.  He has done this for most of our 20 year marriage.  At this point, it's laughable.  It's like a child screaming, "I don't like you.  I hate you!  I am taking my toys and going home."

The silent treatment is a form of this. It is a form of withholding affection and a form of emotional abuse.

At this point in my R/S with my H, I just ignore it.  He can pout for as long as he wants.  In my case, it's usually a few days.    In some cases, the very next day.

WEW, I have played my H's games for so long, I don't seem to care.  He can curse and threatened, and I does not bother me like it used to.  He did, however, get nearly physical with me a few weeks age, pressing his belly and chest into me, telling me he'd, "punch me but they [the authorities] would take away his g uns."  He was "normal" about two days later, but I did tell our doctor. I have an appointment with a social worker.

My H and I do not argue politics, and we only argue when he is too much a doormat for his adult children.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi WitzEndWife,

I’m on my own tumultuous thread...we could debate whose H is more difficult if you want.    Jk

Just wanted to pop over to say I know much of how you feel, although not exact, pretty similar MOs.

The politics interested me. My H is pretty conservative, and like everything he does, escalates into too far/too much. I’m conservative on some things, more liberal on others — I don’t stand on an issue simply along party lines.

But, if we meander onto politics, my H gets very upset if I (or anyone) disagrees, even slightly, with his stand. Then he yells I’m a liberal — as if it’s an insult, I chuckle, sometimes visibly. And I thank him, which is hard for him to manage, but what’s the debate with that?  I don’t consider myself one or the other. It’s not that I am lost, quite the contrary.

And, my H is one of those who will unfriend someone if he disagrees. Doesn’t even take a confrontation, if he gets an inkling they are liberal, boom.

I’m curious if pwBPD tend to be ultra conservative.  Not that all conservatives have BPD, or that all pwBPD are conservative, but is there some defense mechanism for pwBPD to lean this way?

The last thing I will say is that I often find it hard to see/manage issues that I am personally dealing with. So much clearer seeing it for someone else. I am only in the beginning stages, but two big things that others have advised (over and over, I’m a slow learner  ), have been to just go about my business (ST treatment) and boundaries, boundaries. Both were difficult to do at first, but have immense freeing abilities. The last recommendation, and touted as one of the most important, self care, self care. I’m not so good at this one, but working on it.

Anyway, just wanted to chime in and send some   your way. You are not alone.

[kells76]

I’m curious if pwBPD tend to be ultra conservative.  Not that all conservatives have BPD, or that all pwBPD are conservative, but is there some defense mechanism for pwBPD to lean this way?

Hello again UBPDHelp!

Chiming in to share my experience. DH's xW (uBPD) and her husband (I suspect uNPD) have "all the right opinions" for our area -- strongly left leaning. Very involved in activism, marches, politics, signs, social media position announcements, etc.

So, the political way that PD's show up could be a function of the milieu. I think it could be hard for someone with a PD to have the integrity and inner strength to stand up for "the wrong opinions" in a context that strongly leans another way.

Additionally, I suspect it's not the "what" or the "content" of political perspectives that point to a PD, but the "how" the perspectives are held -- just like how bigotry isn't about what one believes, but how a belief is held.

People with PD's might find strength for their weak self-image by associating with "accepted" groups, and the "in group" could vary by town, region, subculture, etc.

I bet what remains the same is the inability for the person with the PD to have empathy and grace towards differing perspectives. It's not just that DH and I hold views that are "diverse" and different from xW's... we're "weak", "scared", "living in fear", "patriarchal"... you name it, for having those views.

Just like the personal insults and putdowns... it's not personal. It's a mindset structure (or lack of structure, sigh) that gets projected via concrete content that happens to be political. Ugh. Weird, sad times we live in.

Hope this helps, and I'll say Hi whenever you're over on Family Law again, too!

-kells76

[Notwendy]

I'm going to agree with Kells that the social setting is a big influence. I think it's an influence to everyone to some extent. My friends who live in predominantly blue areas lean blue and those who live in predominantly red areas - lean red. Also on FB, people tend to remain "friends" with people who agree with them. It's not easy to be the outlier, and it takes some firm boundaries and a strong self image, which pwBPD don't have.

Many political issues are complex- with various factors to consider. With a PD though, I think there's a tendency to see them as all good or all bad and attach a person's character to where they are on the political spectrum. If you vote this way, you are all good, and if you vote that way, you are all bad. and then " I vote this way which makes me all good".

This isn't reality. People are complicated. They may vote according to something that means a lot to them personally, but that doesn't make them all good or all bad. From social media alone, I see some people I suspect have PD's on both sides of the political fence, both in real life and by the content of their interactions.

[formflier]

  People are complicated. 

Amen to this!

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

On the political spectrum thing, I think it's harmful in general for people to think of things in that way, because, just as you point out, Notwendy, people are complicated and nuanced beings. The mainstream media narratives and all the punditry out there seek to put us all in boxes: check red or blue, conservative or liberal, left or right, progressive or moderate, etc. What they've found in surveying people is that we agree a LOT more than we disagree on things, so long as we remove the labels. It's funny how humans have so much more in common than they have differences, and yet we choose to focus on our differences. It's wild.

I would wager that BPDs might be more attracted to extremism because of their black and white thinking, but not necessarily more on one side or the other. As I'm typing this, he's arguing with his mother on the phone, screaming at the top of his lungs, "There is no middle ground! These are all leftist terrorists promoting a socialist agenda. They're hunting down and killing white people! They're going to burn down the White House!"

I don't see a way forward here with him. If he thinks I'm a terrorist, then I can't live with him, obviously. And it's not like this is the first time I've thought about this, FF, to answer your question. We've been heading down this path for quite some time. It scares me how far down the rabbit hole he's gone into these extremist views. It's sad. He used to seem like a reasonable person. Now he avoids showering to surf propaganda and go on extremist message boards and he's ranting and screaming at his own mother. He's truly unhinged.

At the same time, I'm kind of afraid to talk to him right now. I've let him spin out on the silent treatment and have enjoyed my peace. I notice a little spring in my step lately, despite everything that's going on, because I'm not fighting with him every day. I just hope he figures something out and leaves on his own, but I don't think he will.

[formflier]

At the same time, I'm kind of afraid to talk to him right now. I've let him spin out on the silent treatment and have enjoyed my peace. 

What do you need to talk to him about?

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

What do you need to talk to him about?

Best,

FF

I guess nothing yet. It would be to get him to leave because neither of us are going to be changing our minds. What's the point? He thinks I'm a freaking terrorist, for crying out loud. I mean, why would a person want to be married to a terrorist and why would I want to be married to someone who thinks I'm a terrorist? After everything I've done, I certainly don't deserve that. I deserve better.

[formflier]

 
Are you at the point where you want him to leave?

For good?  For a break?

What would it look like?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

IMHO, deciding to stay or leave depending on what your H thinks of you, is still making your decision according to him. Since his thinking is based on his feelings, this can change. So you can say " I need to leave because I don't want to be married to someone who thinks I'm a terrorist" but -- his feelings and what he thinks about you could change tomorrow. I think by now you are familiar with the push pull and how that affects behavior- promises to change, painting you white again, etc.

From what I understand, the decision to leave is based on you. When have you had enough, your decision to do that for you. It's a personal decision- this is one reason we don't post "run" messages here- because that point of " I am leaving" is individual for everyone.

I don't think leaving means " I don't care about you". I think it means " I care about you but also about me and can not sustain this relationship anymore".

Since he's financially dependent on you, it also might mean some kind of financial arrangement for him. I am not a lawyer, and I don't know if you have consulted one, but I think it would help to know the steps ahead if you did make this decision.

Whatever you decide, make it with your thinking, not his.

[formflier]

And if you make the decision to leave (or have him leave) are you going to talk to him about it to try to convince him, are you interested in his opinion or are you going to inform him?

Knowing that pwBPD are so changeable, even if the talk went well and he agreed to leave after a couple of days of packing (or whatever the agreement is)...would you have a reasonable expectation that he would actually follow through with it?

Again..."the plan" was for him to not be living with you know, but be in school so you could be apart and he could find a steady source of income.

My understanding is you guys "talked" a lot about that.  And the results?

If you ever get to the point where YOU are ready to separate, I would encourage you to have an "informative" conversation with him, vice "talking".

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Consider that if you were able to arrive at a mutual understanding by the kind of talking you prefer, you would not be having the issues you are having now. I don't think this is much different than if the two of you spoke different languages. We all filter what we hear through our own experiences and emotions to some extent. You are trying to communicate with someone who has distorted thinking and what you say may not be received by him in quite the same way.

It's understandable that if you were to choose to leave - you would not want to spring it on him as a surprise. This doesn't apply to situations where the partner is physically abusive. That requires an exit plan with your safety in mind and no warning. But if the result of you saying you are leaving is an emotional outburst, and emotionally difficult, then relaying the information might be better-  but needs to be done carefully and effectively.

I don't think you can make it about him. It's better if it is about you. Saying "I am leaving because you don't have a job" results in a promise to get a job. But once the promise works, is there a follow though action? If you say " I can't be married to someone who thinks I'm a terrorist" that can be followed by " I didn't mean it".

"I am leaving because I can no longer sustain this relationship" is a decision based on you, not what he does.

Your decision to stay also is better based on you than him. Saying "I will stay in hopes that he will get a job, get treatment" - that puts it in his hand. But if you decide " I will stay and work on myself in this relationship- to become less co-dependent, less enabling, and have better boundaries" and take action via counseling or a CODA group, or other resources, it puts you in charge of your decision.

[Cat Familiar]

You have often expressed the hope that he might choose to leave of his own accord.

Prior to the pandemic, he had the opportunity to pursue training in automotive technology, a hobby he enjoys. Yet he faltered when his dream started to become reality.

What incentive does he have to leave? You take care of his material needs. It’s a pretty sweet setup for him.

[formflier]

WitzEndWife

An observation and perhaps a question.

It's undeniable that you have worked on yourself and seen good results for you and for the relationship. 

Am I correct that you regularly still see a therapist?  If so (and I believe it is) what else/how far does the therapist think you can go in improving your marriage without buy in (properly directed effort) from your husband?

I hope that you understand that the pathway forward with a therapist that says "Oh we have lots more improvement to make with consistent boundaries and disengagement (and other terms)" compared to a therapist that is struggling to give you more advice would look very different.

Your opinion of where you are is important and it's equally important to lay that opinion (side by side) with that of the professionals involve in your life.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

What incentive does he have to leave? You take care of his material needs. It’s a pretty sweet setup for him.

Or to change one little bit...

Has he repaid that money he took a while back?   I think several months before the pandemic?

What percentage of he monetary spending comes from you and what percentage does he earn?

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

I think Notwendy hit the nail on the head when talking about my sort of dancing to his tune still. My T and I talked on Wednesday and she made an observation that I rarely, if ever, talk about what's good for ME. It's always about what's good for him, what's good for other people. I'm going to have to explore that within myself. Why do I focus SO much on what other people want and need and not at ALL on myself? It's like I don't feel that I deserve it or something. I guess that's common with Codies.

I guess I have more inner work to do to decide, "Okay, *I* have had enough." I know I'm getting there and I'm much closer than I was before, but the "finish line" on it seems so far away. Like, the actual act of cutting him off feels like cutting off a diseased limb without anesthesia. The aftermath will save my whole life, but the cutting is terrifying and unpleasant still. I have to steel myself inside for it and do it soon.

As for your final question, FF, he isn't earning ANY money. He has been moping about since he came home and during the pandemic and everything. No action has been taken to change, because, as Cat said, why would he? He has it pretty good.

[formflier]

So...how does he provide for himself if he earns no money?

Do I remember the story right that he took several $k of money without asking you first and then promised it would be back soon and this happened a few months prior to the pandemic (or thereabouts).  Is that pretty close?  What's the status on this issue?

So...sit money aside.

How often do you tell him no?  How often do you tell him yes?

Again, sitting money aside, how often is your yes respected and you no respected.

I'm looking for "about half the time, 75%, 90% and then a similar broad figure for "respect" of your yes or no.

WitzEndWife, I'm asking this because while I feel I have a good "general idea" of how your and "these types" of relationships go, I have this notion there is part of the dynamic between you two I'm missing or lack understanding of.  So...figured I would try to understand better.

Best,

FF

[WitzEndWife]

On the money thing, he took a few hundred out of our account, not thousand, but still, he didn't pay it back, which, deep down, I KNEW he wouldn't. 

As far as how often my yes or no is respected, I'd say 90 percent of the time, it's a battle or he gives me some kind of attitude with it. I'd say that's because he sees me as his adversary most of the time. It's exhausting. Like, even when I ask him to please remove his DRY laundry from the washer so I can do my laundry (after waiting 24 hours for him to do his), he has to give me snark. You can see how it becomes a challenge to hold boundaries around him when every single stinking thing is a battle to to the death. I just don't have the energy for it, frankly.

There's a theory that there are Borderline subtypes. I definitely think that my H falls into the "petulant" subtype. According to one website, a Petulant Borderline is:

"Individuals showing petulant borderline characteristics are unpredictable and difficult to please. They are often irritable and prone to outbursts of anger and frustration, and they are impatient with other people and quick to become disillusioned when they don’t get what they want.

As a consequence of their tendency to be willful and defiant, people with petulant borderline traits are often stubborn, defensive, and unwilling to admit when they are wrong. Their relationships can be loving but are always complex, and they often engage in passive-aggressive behaviors as a way of lashing out at people who displease them."

Apparently DBT works well with Petulant subtypes, but that's if you can get them into treatment. Therein is the existential joke.

Anyway, my H is extremely intelligent, but also extremely paranoid and not trusting at all of most people. He is terribly manipulative and controlling and will dig right into my insecurities if he doesn't get his way. I am learning to resist that, but still, it's not ultra consistent.

I was journaling last night on all of this and thinking about how, despite being 80 percent of the way in my heart and mind toward ending it, there's this weird thread inside me that is stubbornly hanging on, that still has this "hope" that things can be worked out, like he'll suddenly get help, get a job, stop obsessively watching propaganda videos, and become less problematic of a person, but logically I know that this will never be the case. Like, part of me wants to again try to have a conversation with him, to try to reason with him and tell him all of the things I can't live with and can't accept, but I know this game. Even if he is in a conciliatory mood, he'll tell me everything I want to hear and then he'll do absolutely none of it. He always says, "I'll look for a job tomorrow," and then tomorrow comes and goes. I've come to the conclusion that if he's going to change, he's not going to change unless I cut the purse strings. All of this feels awful. It's so painful. I'm sure people understand what I'm feeling, but I've never been this emotionally paralyzed in a bad relationship. I've always been able to get to a point where I felt like, "Okay, there's nothing left here" and cut it off. I don't know why this is so hard. He's mean and disrespectful to me most of the time. Why do I care?

[formflier]

So...I thought you had cut the purse strings.  He was ubering and maybe some other gig stuff.

How did the purse strings get "uncut".

One of the hardest things I've done if figuring out how I was going to handle money.  Essentially..if my wife is nice...she gets it.  If she cusses me or is demanding or anything iffy...my wallet stays closed.

She has a full time job and quite a bit of income, but from time to time she will ask/need some.

It's been a long time since I've be cussed for money.

Back to you. 

You understand the deep truth at work here..right?  You are training him with what is ok.

He can (blank) and you will still (blank).

Why would he change?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

There's this weird thread inside me that is stubbornly hanging on, that still has this "hope" that things can be worked out, like he'll suddenly get help, get a job, stop obsessively watching propaganda videos, and become less problematic of a person, but logically I know that this will never be the case. Like, part of me wants to again try to have a conversation with him, to try to reason with him and tell him all of the things I can't live with and can't accept, but I know this game.


This is something about you- I don't know what it is, but he's treating you poorly and yet, you hold on to this hope emotionally that---this time, things will be different- when your logical thinking knows better.

You also may feel partly responsible for him as he is financially depending on you.

Consider intermittent reinforcement. Sometimes he might be nicer, be the guy you wish he could be, but it doesn't last- still there's a powerful effect to intermittent reinforcement.

The other is low self esteem, believing you don't deserve better.

I could also be a family pattern, how you grew up. In my house growing up- we kids were co-dependents in training. It was the only way to be in my family. It was our normal and so being co-dependent felt so normal to me, I didn't know there was a problem with it.

With my BPD mother- there was always a "if only you did, or we did" then things would be OK. We all wanted her to be OK. It was a string of--

If only you kids behaved better--
If only we could take this vacation---
If only you did this, or did that---

Most of these "if only"s happened. We so badly wanted her to be OK, for our parents to be happy, and it was false hope over and over and over again. Yet no matter how many "if only" we fulfilled, somehow they also weren't right, or good enough, and didn't work well or for long.

These "if only"s were outward projections. What your H says is probably more about him than you. Once you help get a stronger sense of self, I think you will see it better.


Regardless of what you do in the relationship- it would help to explore these ideas. How were you raised- not to be blaming but to try to undo the things that worked for you in your own family unit growing up but not now.