How to reconcile "protective dishonesty" part 9

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344904.0;all

He has said it 500 times but has never done anything about it.    All things considered it would actually be pretty easy for him to do something about it, pandemic or no pandemic.     But he doesn't do anything.  doesn't take any action.   Just says it over and over.    which makes me view this as another form of verbal abuse, not as a legitimate desire.

Abuse. Abuse I lived with because I felt stuck. I didn’t want a broken family. Wasn’t in a position to support myself and had a lot of little kids. Definitely weaker than a lot of people who have done much harder, but that’s my character/ability.

So it is your choice.    You are choosing (for now) peace at the cost of not doing what you want.    that very well could be the right decision but it is still your decision.   you could have decided that since he won't leave the house you will leave the house and have your phone call with the lawyer in the parking lot of the nearby grocery store.   but that's not what you decided to do.  

Totally my choice now. Totally choosing peace.

He’s actually into several days of intense anxiety and disordered thinking (his own admission). Having physical manifestations. All directed at work. State is starting to reopen and he can go back, but won’t leave the house. He’s “working”  from home. Idk if he’ll ever go back.

But I’m gently steering him to more normal. Not for work so much, but just life and going out and about.

The problem with the L is that their hours have been minimal (courts are closed) and knowing that next Tuesday at 1, I can step away is near impossible. I’ve had times, albeit not too often, that I’ve been longer at store, usually cause I ran into someone and we started chatting, and I’ll come out to texts about where I am and what’s taking so long. During pandemic will set in motion a total meltdown. I consider this a trapped choice. Working on solutions.

there are some people who fall into this category.  Charles Manson comes to mind.   Manson studied books to learn ways to manipulate people into doing what he wanted.    I wouldn't put your husband into this category.

Maybe...maybe not. He’s a true crime fan, other times he can’t stand it. But he definitely studies movies for social cues.

I think there’s manipulation, maybe not intentional.    

I would put your husband in this category.     He exists in a disordered/distorted reality.   His awareness is pretty skewed.   His ability to function at an emotional level is pretty limited.   The 'gaslighting' is an abuse tactic.

So disordered. So abusive.    

schrodinger's cat.    I can see it both ways.   this has been continuing for a long time.    change is hard.     it really only matters what you see though.    

A long time. Snippets in the beginning that were stupidly brushed aside and forgotten. Years of confusion. Now, some understanding. But what to do.

I lean to that no matter how many tools I use perfectly, he’ll probably run this way again. So I question whether it’s worth putting in more effort.

Maybe he’d be happier, too.  

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344904.0;all

He has said it 500 times but has never done anything about it.    All things considered it would actually be pretty easy for him to do something about it, pandemic or no pandemic.     But he doesn't do anything.  doesn't take any action.   Just says it over and over.    which makes me view this as another form of verbal abuse, not as a legitimate desire.

Abuse. Abuse I lived with because I felt stuck. I didn’t want a broken family. Wasn’t in a position to support myself and had a lot of little kids. Definitely weaker than a lot of people who have done much harder, but that’s my character/ability.

So it is your choice.    You are choosing (for now) peace at the cost of not doing what you want.    that very well could be the right decision but it is still your decision.   you could have decided that since he won't leave the house you will leave the house and have your phone call with the lawyer in the parking lot of the nearby grocery store.   but that's not what you decided to do.  

Totally my choice now. Totally choosing peace.

He’s actually into several days of intense anxiety and disordered thinking (his own admission). Having physical manifestations. All directed at work. State is starting to reopen and he can go back, but won’t leave the house. He’s “working”  from home. Idk if he’ll ever go back.

But I’m gently steering him to more normal. Not for work so much, but just life and going out and about.

The problem with the L is that their hours have been minimal (courts are closed) and knowing that next Tuesday at 1, I can step away is near impossible. I’ve had times, albeit not too often, that I’ve been longer at store, usually cause I ran into someone and we started chatting, and I’ll come out to texts about where I am and what’s taking so long. During pandemic will set in motion a total meltdown. I consider this a trapped choice. Working on solutions.

there are some people who fall into this category.  Charles Manson comes to mind.   Manson studied books to learn ways to manipulate people into doing what he wanted.    I wouldn't put your husband into this category.

Maybe...maybe not. He’s a true crime fan, other times he can’t stand it. But he definitely studies movies for social cues.

I think there’s manipulation, maybe not intentional.    

I would put your husband in this category.     He exists in a disordered/distorted reality.   His awareness is pretty skewed.   His ability to function at an emotional level is pretty limited.   The 'gaslighting' is an abuse tactic.

So disordered. So abusive.    

schrodinger's cat.    I can see it both ways.   this has been continuing for a long time.    change is hard.     it really only matters what you see though.    

A long time. Snippets in the beginning that were stupidly brushed aside and forgotten. Years of confusion. Now, some understanding. But what to do.

I lean to that no matter how many tools I use perfectly, he’ll probably run this way again. So I question whether it’s worth putting in more effort.

Maybe he’d be happier, too.  

[babyducks]

this is hard stuff UBPDHelp.     very hard.    

My Ex ended our relationship via email.   She sent me an email saying.   "this isn't working.    I am trying as hard as I can and I assume you are trying as hard as you can but it isn't working".       Let me be as clear as I can possibly be.     This wasn't a bid to end the relationship.   it was testing behavior.    I was ~supposed~ to re-assure her.    I was supposed to say... Yes this is working and Yes I can tell you are trying as hard as you can.    and everything is wonderful and I will try harder and I can't live without you and blah blah blah.     Instead I said Okay and drove back to the condo in the city.   She was surprised.    

I think your husband says He wants a Divorce 500 times because he wants you to back down.   accept peace at any price.    accept his ways and his reality.    I think if you respond to his I Want A Divorce 501, with Okay my lawyer will call yours,  he is going to be surprised.

I can see the results of the gaslighting in how you recount events and situations here.    His thinking is always cast as rock solid,  carved in stone,  set in cement, firm, fixed and deliberate.    You present your thinking as unsure, or unclear, fuzzy or indistinct.    That's the natural result of a lot of gaslighting.    Its the result of living with a lot of abuse.    That's not your fault.    

I’ve also reestablished some independent thinking, which is FANTASTIC.  

Yes you have.    and that's very good.   Growing that will take some time and effort.    recognize how far you have come.

[Notwendy]

I agree the divorce threats come from a place of wanting reassurance, control and not changing.

All behaviors have a cost and a payoff. The cost may be high, but if the payoff is higher, the behavior continues. Think about an alcoholic. The cost of alcoholism is high- it hurts the person's health, family, job, but they continue to drink- because to them, the payoff is higher than the cost.

Your H does this and so do you, because all living creatures continue behaviors that are reinforced, unless the cost of that behavior is higher.

Both of you are each reinforcing each other's dysfunctional behavior. It may not be the same kind of behavior, but you are each reinforcing it. In this way, you match each other. This is discussed in many marriage books- we choose a partner who matches us emotionally in some ways.

You are beginning to question the emotional cost of your behavior. It would also help to explore the payoff- sometimes a focus on someone else is an escape in a way- it keeps us from focusing on our own issues. Managing someone else's discomfort is a way to manage our own discomfort when they get upset.

The "tools" here are not for him. Neither are they to "make him happy". They are actually for you. The better you get at changing your own dysfunctional patterns the happier you will be. It takes a lot of work, and it isn't linear. Sometimes we slip up- but when we do, we recognize it and get back up on our feet faster.

I recall when I began to see results. BPD mom said something that would have been hurful. I would have reacted to it and responded and we'd be on to that drama. Instead, it hardly bothered me. Note- that isn't that it didn't bother me but the emotional effect was less. I didn't react back either. This was not enabling, or avoiding conflict, or walking on eggshells- it came from a sincere part of me- I was not bothered enough to respond.

Right now you are very reactive to your H's moods and what he says. It's hard because he's home all the time needling you. But what if these moods and comments didn't quite affect you the same way? Your response to that would then be different. The drama between you two would then e different- because you have made changes for you. That's what the tools and personal work are for.

[UBPDHelp]

this is hard stuff UBPDHelp.     very hard.    

My Ex ended our relationship via email.   She sent me an email saying.   "this isn't working.    I am trying as hard as I can and I assume you are trying as hard as you can but it isn't working".       Let me be as clear as I can possibly be.     This wasn't a bid to end the relationship.   it was testing behavior.    I was ~supposed~ to re-assure her.    I was supposed to say... Yes this is working and Yes I can tell you are trying as hard as you can.    and everything is wonderful and I will try harder and I can't live without you and blah blah blah.     Instead I said Okay and drove back to the condo in the city.   She was surprised.

Remind me why this time was different for you.
  

I think your husband says He wants a Divorce 500 times because he wants you to back down.   accept peace at any price.    accept his ways and his reality.    I think if you respond to his I Want A Divorce 501, with Okay my lawyer will call yours,  he is going to be surprised.

I want to be ready for this. I am a bit scared of his reaction. I have to take 3 or 4 kids with me so not able to slip away easily. Also, know it’s not always good to leave the house, legally speaking, but can’t imagine staying either.

I can see the results of the gaslighting in how you recount events and situations here.    His thinking is always cast as rock solid,  carved in stone,  set in cement, firm, fixed and deliberate.    You present your thinking as unsure, or unclear, fuzzy or indistinct.    That's the natural result of a lot of gaslighting.    Its the result of living with a lot of abuse.    That's not your fault.  

The gradual erosion of my self confidence and awareness. I’ve stopped asking his opinion on my things and just made the decisions.

The unsuredness wasn’t that I wasn’t capable of the decision, it was mostly that I was unwanting to deal with his reaction if I didn’t choose correctly — aka his choice. I can’t put my finger on why I gave him so much control. Obviously lack of boundaries...but why?  

Yes you have.    and that's very good.   Growing that will take some time and effort.    recognize how far you have come.

So far to go...

Thanks BabyDucks!

[UBPDHelp]

I agree the divorce threats come from a place of wanting reassurance, control and not changing.

I’ve always given this, until the last time or two. No reassurance. Can’t give it and I really can’t see how or why to have a relationship with someone who is okay saying these things.

All behaviors have a cost and a payoff. The cost may be high, but if the payoff is higher, the behavior continues. Think about an alcoholic. The cost of alcoholism is high- it hurts the person's health, family, job, but they continue to drink- because to them, the payoff is higher than the cost.

Your H does this and so do you, because all living creatures continue behaviors that are reinforced, unless the cost of that behavior is higher.

Both of you are each reinforcing each other's dysfunctional behavior. It may not be the same kind of behavior, but you are each reinforcing it. In this way, you match each other. This is discussed in many marriage books- we choose a partner who matches us emotionally in some ways.

So my payoff was that I gave in to his demands to stop his dysregulation. My dysfunction was willingness to do this. Is that what you’re saying?

You are beginning to question the emotional cost of your behavior. It would also help to explore the payoff- sometimes a focus on someone else is an escape in a way- it keeps us from focusing on our own issues. Managing someone else's discomfort is a way to manage our own discomfort when they get upset.

Ugh.  I’ve stopped trying to manage his emotions. He gets a validating statement and if he chooses to spiral, he gets to do that alone.

The "tools" here are not for him. Neither are they to "make him happy". They are actually for you. The better you get at changing your own dysfunctional patterns the happier you will be. It takes a lot of work, and it isn't linear. Sometimes we slip up- but when we do, we recognize it and get back up on our feet faster.

I do need concepts repeated, but I have managed to grasp the tools are for me.

Can you share what you see as my dysfunctional patterns?  And share where you think they come from and what you would do to change them, if you were me.

I grasp more quickly if I have examples...sorry the abstract flit about like lightning bugs for me.

Thanks notwendy!

I recall when I began to see results. BPD mom said something that would have been hurful. I would have reacted to it and responded and we'd be on to that drama. Instead, it hardly bothered me. Note- that isn't that it didn't bother me but the emotional effect was less. I didn't react back either. This was not enabling, or avoiding conflict, or walking on eggshells- it came from a sincere part of me- I was not bothered enough to respond.

Right now you are very reactive to your H's moods and what he says. It's hard because he's home all the time needling you. But what if these moods and comments didn't quite affect you the same way? Your response to that would then be different. The drama between you two would then e different- because you have made changes for you. That's what the tools and personal work are for.

I’m getting better about this. I feel better letting him deal.   Idk if he feels better or not.

[UBPDHelp]

This..1000 times over...this.

Now...sit with this for a bit and have another bonus cup of coffee this morning.  FF says..orders..whatever.

Let's be completely honest.  Does it seem fair that it's your choice?  How do you feel when you read this?

It's us...no need to censor.

Best,

FF

It is my choice. I’m okay with that. I’m not taking decisions lightly and they involve my kiddos so I want to be sure. But the bad is overtaking the good anymore.

But I’m also really pi$$ed that I’ve spent 25 years with this man, had four kids with him and now it’s too much. Yes, I’m pi$$ed all the holidays I’ve spent with him and done things his way and he thinks it’s okay to:

Call me a hillbilly slut
Disparage my upbringing
Relentlessly question my morals
Break things (less often, never okay)
Tell me we’re going to divorce — real or otherwise — still BS.


So I’m angry he’s ripped our family apart. I guess I have to.

But, I’m okay making the decisions.

I feel there’s more to come out but I’m not there yet...

[UBPDHelp]

@notwendy...I also just wanted to say that it’s not that I don’t see my issue/part in this, it’s just that you all often see things I don’t. That is why I’m looking for thoughts on what you all see as MY dysfunctional patterns...so I can work that out.

Things I see:

Avoiding discussions that will incite him
Avoiding people, places, things that will incite him
Managing his moods
Not knowing the line on joint, marital decisions vs personal decisions I have a right to make for myself


I’m sure there are more (I’m tired) but those are the big ones.

I struggle with why. Why did things change from what I thought was a “typical, normal” relationship to so dysfunctional? Why does he think it’s okay? Why didn’t I see it?  Why did I sit like a deer caught in headlights for so long believing I could make things better?

And what kind of person am I that I would put up with this?  What did I do? 

I’ve wracked my brain to find something in my childhood that impacted me that all of this didn’t seem abnormal to me. Or why I would allow myself to be in denial. 

The only thing I can can come up is a fear of abandonment after my mom died. I was a young adult but I do think I clung to him then. And then was afraid to let go.  What a mess I created. I don’t care about me, I’m tough, I’ll pull through. What did I do to my kids?

Sorry to ramble...still like a list. Thank you.

[UBPDHelp]

This is just a small update.

H has been full of physical anxiety for a few days. I believe reopening business, for a job he hates, but is good at, and he’s spiraling.

He told me he’s imagining things happened with customers that didn’t but it’s making him sick. He didn’t eat the other day.

This is stressful and I can’t help. I listen for a moment, see what he wants to do and then leave him alone. But it’s another stressor and he won’t get help for this either.

On a bright note, I got a job. Actually a pretty good job and so I’m excited about that and having a distraction and the opportunity to build something and get some financial independence. I feel like it’s my life line (besides all of you!  ).

The dichotomy of our situations does not escape me.

[formflier]

  Yes, I’m pi$$ed all the holidays I’ve spent with him and done things his way and he thinks it’s okay to:

 

For starters..I'm not giving him a pass.

I am pointing out to you that he like doesn't think of these words in the same way you do. 

Unless his has explicitly said he thinks it is ok to say this to you, I wouldn't use this.

It's likely more accurate to believe he says these things to "self soothe" and it's unlikely he has thought this through.  He knows it works for him (or used to) and that's the likely extent of it.

I wonder why FF made this point?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

H has been full of physical anxiety for a few days. ../../.. But it’s another stressor and he won’t get help for this either.

Congratulations on your new job.    Way to go.   Good work.

When you had the conversation with him about his stress and anxiety how did that go?

[UBPDHelp]

For starters..I'm not giving him a pass.

I am pointing out to you that he like doesn't think of these words in the same way you do. 

Unless his has explicitly said he thinks it is ok to say this to you, I wouldn't use this.

It's likely more accurate to believe he says these things to "self soothe" and it's unlikely he has thought this through.  He knows it works for him (or used to) and that's the likely extent of it.

I wonder why FF made this point?

Best,

FF

Hmmm.  I’m not sure. Yes, he definitely has a massive need to self soothe, but he has said he feels/believes what he says. I mean literally said he means them. Specifically these things.

I probably have it in writing.

But, I do see projection now that I never noticed before. He cloaks everything as he’s just looking out for your best interest and for(ever) a long time I believed that. Now I see it coming a mile away.

I’m doing better reasonably holding my own. He’s in a bad place, self induced. I understand he can’t help it, I try to reassure him, but to no avail. Idk if less push back is because he’s anxiety ridden right now.

Last night our oldest, who has been looking to switch jobs and is frustrated everything came to a standstill the last few months, wanted to talk about changing course a bit to adapt to the changing times. Kid has one boss (thankfully there are others)  that is very much like H and kid and I have casually stated that perhaps that’s why kid has stuck it out longer than several others that started at the same time, has experience in disordered thinking. Unbelievable.

Anyway, kid is sharing thoughts and looking for feedback.  H gets riled and pushes back a whole lot.  Reasons were not reasonable. I don’t chime in too much because that tends to make things worse. But I’ve told kid to hold onto what THEY feel is important and not get railroaded. Gave tools to get out of conversations. Kid handled it well and didn’t back down or get manipulated. H was clearly annoyed by this and then throws out the usual final standby — you’re on your own if it goes wrong. Nothing like a vote of confidence and show of support.

Watching this like a tennis match makes it so much easier to see. Dealing with it, not as easy.

At dinner we got into a conversation about all the strife in the world right now. No one wants to have this conversation with him. I listened for a moment, attempted to SET and then move on to some other topic. He won’t bite and then starts on a rant about how Latins are made fun of and depicted negatively. Again, I remove from the conversation. He gets upset and then throws out some disgusting history lesson (I can’t/won’t repeat).  I’ve heard it before and I say so and tell him I will NOT listen to another second of it. He keeps going and I leave. My older two were still there. They’ve heard it before.  It’s salacious, disgusting and he ratchets it up to this level when we don’t agree with his view on other things. It’s some kind of payback to get is to agree with him.

After I left he wound down and it didn’t come up again.  

But, my point is, the extent and magnitude of these incidents has just increased to a crazy level.

Gotta go.

[UBPDHelp]

Congratulations on your new job.    Way to go.   Good work.

Thanks BabyDucks. It feels good because it’s a better job than I expected. I can do from home so I don’t have to worry about kids sick days or if they continue remote in the fall.  It pays well and has benefits, which I haven’t had my own in a long time so yes, very happy. It’s more than a job, it removes a crutch for me.

When you had the conversation with him about his stress and anxiety how did that go?

It’s hard. He wakes up a mess. Idk if he has actual dreams/nightmares and then can’t separate them.  I’ve seen him do this a few times before, some personal and some work. He can’t discuss work details so I’m left with his judgment, which is suspect at best. I used to believe everything he told me (I’m not a liar (or at least I wasn’t), probably more naïveté than pious do-gooder, so I just assumed he was telling the truth).

But, when we talk, he gets to that he knows it’s irrational but he is visibly and physically ill. My arm chair analysis is that he’s starting to do work again and now he’s freaking out.

He had a client about 20 years ago that turned out to be a scammer, unrelated to anything with H, but the office had to have some big discussions about this one client. That was stressful.  I think he never shook that and when work gets stressful, he reverts.  I feel bad that this happens, I understand it some, but I can’t fix for him.

So, now I chat a bit. Reassert his acknowledgement that it’s irrational and let him come to terms.

Re: the job.  I can’t get him another job. Because I’ve been looking, I let him know I stumbled on one for him.  He could use his degree and experience, but with a lot less stress. Pays pretty well, closer to home, etc.  He says he’ll consider it, but that he’d never get it.

Which I think explains his view of my jobs. I’m not worthy because he doesn’t feel worthy. Idk.

He’s already started that now I have a real job and it’s full time, spinning it negative. I think he wants to manipulate me so I will think it’s too much. My last job was 45-50 hours, wasn’t supposed to be, but just was. I loved the work, most of it anyway. I’m sure he’s concerned that I won’t be there to do my usual stuff. Probably true. Managed before, but hey everyone should pitch in. Done.

My point, or what is becoming more clear, is that his feelings (sad, worried, mad, jilted, unfair) are permeating the entire family, touching on every facet, the consequences of which are turning almost entirely negative.

It’s weird. I don’t want this in my life (or as little as possible), but I see him as more broken than ever. And then I question if it’s wrong to leave him in such a state. But, can I support from afar. That seems unrealistic and ultimately not my responsibility.  I have tried helping, getting him to get help.

Once again, I’ve rambled.   So much for my little brain to sort out. 


Thanks BabyDucks

[babyducks]

Hmmm.  I’m not sure. Yes, he definitely has a massive need to self soothe, but he has said he feels/believes what he says. I mean literally said he means them. Specifically these things.

UBPDHelp,

It's perfectly okay to come here, and report the next example of his behavior.    And we are probably going to say the same things in response.  His ability to be self aware and emotional mature is limited.  very limited.     It's better to turn your focus onto yourself.   the tools are to improve your emotional maturity not his.   you can't change his behavior or understandings, only your own.

it seems to me that acceptance is the next step.

But, my point is, the extent and magnitude of these incidents has just increased to a crazy level.

we understand.    we have been there.    what do you need from us to end this cycle of being appalled by his behavior only to look for explanations that are palatable over and over again?

can you get to a place where you accept that he has a mental illness of some kind and will not and does not act/think/behave the way you believe he should?

'ducks

[babyducks]

But, when we talk, he gets to that he knows it’s irrational but he is visibly and physically ill. My arm chair analysis is that he’s starting to do work again and now he’s freaking out.

did you discuss him seeing a doctor?   his regular general physician to discuss his stress levels?   did he refuse to do this?

[formflier]

Hmmm.  I’m not sure. Yes, he definitely has a massive need to self soothe, but he has said he feels/believes what he says. I mean literally said he means them. Specifically these things.
 

And...let's assume for our discussion that he did/does really mean them in the moment that he said them.

I hope you can "accept" that these comments are likely about him and not you? 

I hope you can "accept" that the comments do something for him, and aren't really intended to do something to you (again not giving him a pass)

Switching gears:  I also encourage you to keep "posting and reporting" AND ALSO try to get in touch with how these incidents "sit with you"...how you "feel" about them.

Last:  What does it mean that getting a job "removes a crutch from you" (or something like that).

Hey...CONGRATS on the job!   

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

did you discuss him seeing a doctor?   his regular general physician to discuss his stress levels?   did he refuse to do this?

He has a regular doctor that he’s seen for 20 years.

Funny side note...I saw her years before him...we have the same first name, smallish town, etc. We moved out of town for a couple of years, and when we came back he started seeing her. Now he says he saw her first (he doesn’t like to be same place as me, I have my own set of really good doctors).  Idk who keeps score on stuff like that besides him, but it is a relentless pursuit to be better, first (big reason the virginity gets him is he wasn’t first (small gag) on the most meaningless, mundane things. And while I don’t pursue these things, it is a big reason why I feel the truth narrative shifts so heavily to Mr. Wonderful.

Anyway, I go every year to my three main doctors. I take my kids to their yearly and as needed, and suggested highly he go.  And for the most part he goes every year.  This year it was April and got pushed out as they weren’t doing well visits. But, she does a depression screening every year. They’re good buddies and I’m pretty sure he’s charmed her. So, I’m fairly certain he hasn’t told her the truth.

I will try to suggest discussing with her. He does trust her but he balks at a lot of the tests she requests so I suspect, but don’t know, that he won’t want help. Worth a shot.

[UBPDHelp]

And...let's assume for our discussion that he did/does really mean them in the moment that he said them.

This is a big ask. I’m very confident he means them (he will say/scream tell me why you...).  But I will concede that this may be mixed with a heavy dose of projection. 

I hope you can "accept" that these comments are likely about him and not you?

Maybe. Again, I am certain he believes them. Maybe he did same and is upset with himself, but then we’re in tandem territory.

But, he does project a whole lot.  

I hope you can "accept" that the comments do something for him, and aren't really intended to do something to you (again not giving him a pass)

Sure, gives him the feeling of power and superiority that somehow makes him a better person. Illusion. Not the truth.

Switching gears:  I also encourage you to keep "posting and reporting" AND ALSO try to get in touch with how these incidents "sit with you"...how you "feel" about them.

I can’t go.  I need you all too much.

But, I’ve gone from feeling stomped on to pretty pi$$ed at the treatment. Mad at myself for not putting my foot down. Mad at myself for lying to myself that there was love in there somewhere or that mine would ever be enough for both of us. It’s not.

I feel he needs to own his sh!t and let me own mine.

Developing story...stay tuned.

Last:  What does it mean that getting a job "removes a crutch from you" (or something like that).

I mean having to rely on him re: finances. Conceivably I could manage myself/kiddos on my new salary. He still makes four times what I will, so would probably get some support still. So, lack of job/finances is no longer an obstacle.

Two things, I’m not rushing out. Gonna see how it goes and make sure pandemic also doesn’t cause issue.

And, just because I can potentially support myself/kiddos doesn’t mean I’m running to divorce. It just removes it from the equation. Hope that makes sense.

FYI...my older kids have started sharing a bunch these days about their true feelings about dad. I’m heartbroken and wish they’d shared sooner, but know they didn’t feel they could AND that’s my fault. Working on someone for them to talk to as well. 

Hey...CONGRATS on the job!   

Best,

FF

Thank you.

[babyducks]

This is a big ask. I’m very confident he means them (he will say/scream tell me why you...).  But I will concede that this may be mixed with a heavy dose of projection. 

yes this is a big ask.    I can very clearly see that thinking of his abuse as a "intentional gaslighting", thinking of his dysregulation as "a choice to spiral",  deliberately believing  you are a hillbilly also means he has the choice to control his behavior and decide to not spiral, can intentionally stop being verbally abusive, and can change his mind about your moral / hillbilly status.

that has to feel comfortable.   that has to look like a potential fix.   that would make things a lot easier.

if he studies TV shows and Movies for social cues that means he could learn how to act differently.   

if you change how you respond and perfectly use the tools he will react better, and then there is a fix.   

that would be great.     and yet all of us have suggested over and over that there is more to this than that.

Sure, gives him the feeling of power and superiority that somehow makes him a better person. Illusion. Not the truth.

so he screams at you that you are a hillbilly.   does it matter if he believes it?    why does it matter if he believes it?

[formflier]

so he screams at you that you are a hillbilly.   does it matter if he believes it?    why does it matter if he believes it?

Just so you know...I qualify as a card carrying hillbilly.  My first girlfriend's Dad ran a still   I know people that enjoy hunting and eating possum.  There is nothing better than sitting on a porch with a good fiddle and banjo player.

I don't "hide" or "promote" my past...it is what it is.  There is much about that "culture" to be proud of and (like many cultures) there are parts of it that contribute to unwanted outcomes.

Please hear me when I say that I don't detect the least amount of wishing you came from somewhere else in your posts and also please hear me when I say it has to be hard to hear those things from anyone (let alone someone that should love and respect you)

All that being said...it's obvious you have some introspective work to do in order to sort out "why" these things (such as the hillbilly comments) have such a big  impact on you. 

Please don't assume "it's obvious" why they have such an impact.

Last...if there are things about your culture you want to chat about.  I'm open (not pushing...just want you to know what's available).

I grew up in the rural mountains of Appalachia.  In fact I got back "home" late last night and I'm enjoying the view as I type.

We've got you on this...in so many ways!   

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

yes this is a big ask.    I can very clearly see that thinking of his abuse as a "intentional gaslighting", thinking of his dysregulation as "a choice to spiral",  deliberately believing  you are a hillbilly also means he has the choice to control his behavior and decide to not spiral, can intentionally stop being verbally abusive, and can change his mind about your moral / hillbilly status.

that has to feel comfortable.   that has to look like a potential fix.   that would make things a lot easier.

I don’t mean to be stuck here. On some level I believe he knows it’s wrong. Perhaps not in the moment. He flashes very quickly.

He’s been more trying to set it right after...mostly because my response has changed, I believe. He senses something different.

But it’s not comfortable...but I think I know what you mean. I hate it no matter if it’s intentional or not. But, it’s my old standby...even though it doesn’t help anything if it’s true...or if it’s not.

And, likewise, it doesn’t make things easier. I suppose in the beginning when I thought he could change, it was easier. But, on my premise that he could control it, it is anything but easy to understand why he doesn’t. It’s maddening.

But, ultimately I know you’re shaking your head that I can’t see he can’t control it.

That premise sux because then I can’t hold him responsible or expect it to stop. And then I feel guilty abandoning a sick man. But I sell my soul again if I don’t make it stop.

if he studies TV shows and Movies for social cues that means he could learn how to act differently.

I don’t believe he’s watching so he could change how he acts. I think he believes he acts totally fine. I believe he does not reasonably know how to behave within social norms and uses movies to mimic behavior/expectations to appear normal. 

if you change how you respond and perfectly use the tools he will react better, and then there is a fix. 

There was a time I thought if I could just make him see or whatever, that it would fix things. At the time I thought he thought how I did. I was wholly unaware...and undoubtedly years of JADEing contributed to further demise.

I no longer believe there is anything that would fix this. I couldn’t keep up with half of what it might take.

I am worried that he really doesn’t want a divorce and will feel blind sided. And, I don’t want to hurt him, I just can’t live in constant turmoil. 

that would be great.     and yet all of us have suggested over and over that there is more to this than that.

I have nothing.

so he screams at you that you are a hillbilly.   does it matter if he believes it?    why does it matter if he believes it?

No, it doesn’t matter if he believes it or not. I don’t care. I know what I’m made of. The words used to sting and sometimes still do, but ultimately I think it’s more hurt that someone that’s supposed to love and care about me would speak to me that way.

So, to an extent the content matters, but it’s more the action.

Thanks BabyDucks...lots to think about.

[UBPDHelp]

Just so you know...I qualify as a card carrying hillbilly.  My first girlfriend's Dad ran a still   I know people that enjoy hunting and eating possum.  There is nothing better than sitting on a porch with a good fiddle and banjo player.

I am proud of you...I’d have some from the still, probably pass on the possum, but I’m a chicken kind of gal.  

I don't "hide" or "promote" my past...it is what it is.  There is much about that "culture" to be proud of and (like many cultures) there are parts of it that contribute to unwanted outcomes.

I have no judgments, never have...except a$$holes, I don’t like them (and would you look at me now?).

Agree. I haven’t hidden my past, I’ve made plenty of mistakes, learned from most (sans one big one).  I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for there.

H was a poorer kid in a town full of upper middle to upper class kids. I think a lot of his speaking poorly on my growing up is a projection of his.

The big issue has been hashed. Yawn, I’m bored with it.

He hasn’t had a meltdown on me in about 2 months but I still get a lot of little things and a bunch of snapping.

He’s finally talking about going back to work and I think some time apart is much needed. But, I don’t think it ultimately changes anything.

Please hear me when I say that I don't detect the least amount of wishing you came from somewhere else in your posts and also please hear me when I say it has to be hard to hear those things from anyone (let alone someone that should love and respect you)

Exactly.

All that being said...it's obvious you have some introspective work to do in order to sort out "why" these things (such as the hillbilly comments) have such a big  impact on you.  

Please don't assume "it's obvious" why they have such an impact.

I think it’s rude. I think it’s untrue. I think it’s projection of his feelings of inadequacy.

The words sting. Not as much anymore. BUT I don’t believe that you ever treat someone that way, especially someone you love (or are supposed to).  

But I guess the biggest question is why I excused it as stress and that he didn’t mean it when things would be better.

Cuz it was easier. And probably some because I was afraid.

Last...if there are things about your culture you want to chat about.  I'm open (not pushing...just want you to know what's available).

Haha!  I’m an open book. I don’t have much culture. Nothing interesting anyway. Pretty mild mannered, normal upbringing.

I grew up in the rural mountains of Appalachia.  In fact I got back "home" late last night and I'm enjoying the view as I type.

So nice. We drove through those mountains when I was a kid. So different from the Rocky Mountains. Both were terrifying to me as a kid, idk why.

But amazingly beautiful in their own ways. Enjoy that view!

We've got you on this...in so many ways!  

Thank you.  I’m spun in circles...but think I’m making a lil progress. Thank you for sticking with me even though I am tough to get the point.

[formflier]

He hasn’t had a meltdown on me in about 2 months but I still get a lot of little things and a bunch of snapping.
 

So..compare this with thoughts that "he can't control it" and/or that little you do matters (broad descriptions here)

What are your thoughts on why he hasn't had a meltdown?

I would encourage you to not think about him controlling it in a yes or no way...perhaps sometimes he has more control and sometime less.

Hmmm...I wonder why that would be?  Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

So..compare this with thoughts that "he can't control it" and/or that little you do matters (broad descriptions here)

What are your thoughts on why he hasn't had a meltdown?

I would encourage you to not think about him controlling it in a yes or no way...perhaps sometimes he has more control and sometime less.

Hmmm...I wonder why that would be?  Thoughts?

Best,

FF

I assume my boundary(ies) has stopped the reward he got from it.

The near constant combination of nitpicking, outrageous comments/stories, narcissistic behavior is new.

I can’t tell how much is some type of extinction burst (was expecting bigger) and how much is pandemic/pandemic-induced anxiety.

My assessment?  Thoughts?


So if I go on the following premises:

~ He can’t control his outbursts
~ He isn’t talking about me, but rather himself when he spews vileness
~ He doesn’t really want a divorce
~ other stuff (taking all credit for good, no responsibility for bad, creating stories, etc.)

Where does this leave me?

~ I can remind myself he doesn’t mean it/can’t help it, but regardless it creates a great deal of stress
      ~ Yes, intellectually I can tell myself it’s outside his control, but emotionally I’m not sure I care because I deserve better, my kids certainly do
~ Again, intellectually I understand he’s not really talking about me, but his failures are not my responsibility
     ~ Pink elephants are wonderfully ridiculous, the words lose their meaning, but, I still am tired of a foot stomping two year old in a grown man’s body
~ He should watch his words, the tables are turning and I’ll mean it when I say divorce
~ It’s hard to watch these lies told. I think they are told to himself as much as they are to the rest of us


Case in point. He hates his job. He wants to switch. Despite an advanced degree and 25 years experience, he wants to change but doesn’t think anyone will hire him (won’t even try).  He’s been looking into getting another degree.  It’s a lot of money, will take a few years and although he can work, it will be reduced. Okay, ways to work this. He can’t do this just anywhere. He wants to go to the most prestigious school for it (also most expensive) but he’s not sure his grades (from 25 years ago) will be good enough to get in. So he starts telling me that he told the admission woman that he worked with a very well known senator who was a huge advocate in this field (true).  But then he says that he worked on a very famous case while there.  This is impossible because a) his tenure was at least 10-15 years before this case and/or b) if he had knowledge when he says he did, it should have been reported at the time, which it wasn’t.

Idk why he would tell such a big lie.  It’s fairly provable that it’s untrue.

I didn’t challenge him but did feel kind of sick about it. There’s a good chance his narcissistic ego needs this story to prove his worth vs not perfect grades. Idk.

But this scares me, too, because it showcases the untruths he tells/believes and makes me wonder what else I’ve believed over the years.

Introspection time, but please share any thoughts. Thank you FF.

[formflier]

Perhaps he can't control his outbursts, yet it appears you can "influence them".  I get it you can't "precisely" control them.

I also don't suggest any of this is easy or that you should have to do it.

I do want you to see there is an option where the major stuff is greatly reduced.

Outrageous stories:  Let's work on a strategy for this.  How can you indicate it sounds important yet now isn't the time.

Nitpicking:  Is this worse than whacky stories?  I think it would be for me.  How do you respond now when he nitpicks?  Can you give a couple sentence example (he says she says he does she does).

Let's work on those two.

I don't think I've read anything from you that is "extinction burst".

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

I assume my boundary(ies) has stopped the reward he got from it.

can we tweak this a little bit to say ... he isn't acting so much as reacting... reacting to emotions/thoughts/perspectives that might not be logical or entirely visible to you.   not creating or controlling as much as responding,  easily affected, vulnerable too.

~ He isn’t talking about me, but rather himself when he spews vileness

He is reacting to the stress/anxiety/discomfort inside him.     it's a tea kettle whistling under the boil.   or a bottle of coke that has been shaken and opened.  he spews vileness and feels better for a little while.

~  it creates a great deal of stress
~  I deserve better, my kids certainly do
~  his failures are not my responsibility
~  I still am tired of a foot stomping two year old in a grown man’s body

this makes a lot of sense.   there has been a lot of conflict in your relationship for a long while.   you've been caught in a cycle of conflict that has been draining and confusing.   you want a mature and capable partner and it's been glaringly and painfully obvious that's not available.   

Case in point. He hates his job. He wants to switch. ../../..

Idk why he would tell such a big lie.  It’s fairly provable that it’s untrue.

I didn’t challenge him but did feel kind of sick about it.

Rather than challenge him is this something you could open a dialogue about?   Can you have a calm conversation where you are coming from a good and rested place yourself?    He told this outrageous story,  can you go back to him and say "I was thinking about the senator and the case and I'm wondering if your memory is a little fuzzy about that,  are you sure you got the dates and things right?"    See if he is receptive to a reasonable exchange.    if he is not walk away.    if he is gently probe.     this should be a no conflict conversation.   low stress.   low key.     not a lot of tension.    is that possible?

communication has been aggressive and adversarial between the two of you.  regardless if you divorce or stay... turning the tension down between you will help you to move forward on whatever path you pick.

[UBPDHelp]

Perhaps he can't control his outbursts, yet it appears you can "influence them".  I get it you can't "precisely" control them.

I agree. This seems like what’s happening. I’m not getting upset (as far as he knows) about most of these things. No reaction = changed response.

I also don't suggest any of this is easy or that you should have to do it.

I do want you to see there is an option where the major stuff is greatly reduced.

It’s reduced. I feel better simply changing the perspective, that you’ve all beat me over the head (thankfully) about. But, I do resent some having to work this hard.

My other concern is that I put in all this effort, make these changes and in a year or so, it all crumbles again.  For years the issues were few and far between and rarely got heated. Something changed. I was scrambling and had no idea what was happening or how to react. This is the period where I know I made things so much worse. Then I found Stop Walking on Eggshells and then poked around here for a while.

Wasted years until there was help. But is it all too little, too late?  I don’t want to regret more wasted time.

Outrageous stories:  Let's work on a strategy for this.  How can you indicate it sounds important yet now isn't the time.

Idk. Pointing out a discrepancy is like a dagger to him and yet, allowing forever changes the narrative. Neither is great. I need to think about this. Open to suggestions.

Nitpicking:  Is this worse than whacky stories?  I think it would be for me.  How do you respond now when he nitpicks?  Can you give a couple sentence example (he says she says he does she does).

Not necessarily worse in quality, but definitely in quantity.

H - I told you to not put the dish there
Me - Thanks for the reminder (moves the dish)

Repeat throughout the day, different variations. None are a big deal, but incessant need to comment on my actions despite his total inaction.

Or

H - why are you doing laundry/emptying the dishwasher/making dinner NOW? Shouldn’t you...
Me - the cool thing about being the one who does these things is you get to pick when you do them. But, hey, if you want to take them on, feel free to do them when works best for you.
H - hmmrrumph

Let's work on those two.

I don't think I've read anything from you that is "extinction burst”.

Is there such a thing as an annoying burst?  Ha, jk.

I’m certain I’ve done it wrong, but I am not quick on my feet and still get frustrated at these things. I can let the content roll off, but the continual dictating my actions gets very tiresome.

Open to any and all suggestions.  Thinking I’m not cut out for this.

[formflier]

Why have any response to him bossing you?

It seems like your responses acknowledge his one up position?

Help me understand the purpose of the responses you gave?

Best

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Why have any response to him bossing you?

It seems like your responses acknowledge his one up position?

Help me understand the purpose of the responses you gave?

Best

FF

Hi FF...Well, if I don’t respond with something, this sets him off.

I don’t have good responses. Honestly I don’t want to try this hard.

And, I think the constant behavior has just taken a toll on me. I spend my days now thwarting stories and trying to keep the truth in check. I’m not operating to be in the up position, just and equal and complementary position, so I don’t know how to stop his need for the upper hand.

I am not exaggerating I have fended off all of this today.

1. Freaking out at school pick up (over the top, embarrassing)
2. Him retelling a story from yesterday with a corrected fact that he says he said all along. He didn’t, wasn’t even important.  I asked about it very innocently initially because it was simply unclear to me. He must have checked the fact and then this morning brought it up again very nonchalantly with the correct fact as if he said this all along. Again, I thought he was clarifying this point that was confusing and he insisted he said it all along. Thankfully, our two oldest were there yesterday and remembered exactly the same as I did, otherwise I would have believed I was going crazy.
3. Freaked out at a delivery person and then called their office on my phone and got a bit out of hand.  I demanded my phone back and he got upset.
4. Moving some furniture around. I said I was still thinking about getting a small table. He got mad and said it was his idea to get a table.  It wasn’t, but who cares whose idea it was, it was just a small side table.  Then he suggested something else and I told him I’d love it but didn’t think there was enough room. Then he told me I don’t know how to decorate and should watch some more decorating shows (the second half could really qualify as #5)
5. Told me I make faces like this girl on tv he dislikes. Told me our kids all notice I do the same thing. I generally don’t, but have been caught once of twice shocked at some behavior.
6. Third day of being told that I should do my new job in the family room and not my office. When kids are at school and he’s at work, I prefer the location of the family room to my office but with everyone home I keep telling him I’ll need to be in the office because the family room will be loud and distracting. He keeps telling me I’ll be better in family room.

Other snappy annoyances, but those are the main for today. Yesterday it was some of these and the untrue story about work/senator.

I’m not trying to be the bastion of truth and righteousness, but I feel my reality being eroded and changed and that feels scary. Then I question if I remember things correctly.

But, ultimately I guess my point is, after a day like this I have even more trouble coming up with responses to level the playing field and I literally have run out of rooms to go to.  

Introspection...am I the problem?  Is my more casual communication contributing to his behavior. Idk, I feel like I’m fighting it all.

[UBPDHelp]

can we tweak this a little bit to say ... he isn't acting so much as reacting... reacting to emotions/thoughts/perspectives that might not be logical or entirely visible to you.   not creating or controlling as much as responding,  easily affected, vulnerable too.

Agree, it is more of a reaction.

He is reacting to the stress/anxiety/discomfort inside him.     it's a tea kettle whistling under the boil.   or a bottle of coke that has been shaken and opened.  he spews vileness and feels better for a little while.

Okay.  But why after all this time, if it was there all along, has it just gotten worse and worse the last five years?  Losing a big case and never recovered?

this makes a lot of sense.   there has been a lot of conflict in your relationship for a long while.   you've been caught in a cycle of conflict that has been draining and confusing.   you want a mature and capable partner and it's been glaringly and painfully obvious that's not available. 

It’s hard, but helpful to hear. He CAN function incredibly well. Clients love him (or hate him, I suppose).  He can manage some problems BUT if he’s triggered elsewhere, he cannot handle the simplest of things.

10 years ago there were outbursts, but they left as quickly as they came and weren’t so often. It was easier to put away because the good far outweighed the bad.  Now, it’s just so much discord. I just don’t want it.

Is that enough? Am I abandoning him when he is at his worst, because he’s at his worst?  Is this when I’m supposed to stick around — for better or for worse?  I don’t think the worse was meant from your spouse...rather when the world does worse to you.  Idk.
 

Rather than challenge him is this something you could open a dialogue about?   Can you have a calm conversation where you are coming from a good and rested place yourself?    He told this outrageous story,  can you go back to him and say "I was thinking about the senator and the case and I'm wondering if your memory is a little fuzzy about that,  are you sure you got the dates and things right?"    See if he is receptive to a reasonable exchange.    if he is not walk away.    if he is gently probe.     this should be a no conflict conversation.   low stress.   low key.     not a lot of tension.    is that possible?

Possibly. I mean I can do it. Idk how he would react.

When I said I didn’t “challenge” him, I didn’t mean that I was going to rake him over the coals, I just meant I didn’t question what he said in any way. I just let it stand. It was a big national case that happened in the last five years. He worked for the senator 25 years ago, I’m not even sure he could have been confused about dates. Is he telling a story to impress the admissions people?  Does he need to believe he was part of something big?  Idk.

communication has been aggressive and adversarial between the two of you.  regardless if you divorce or stay... turning the tension down between you will help you to move forward on whatever path you pick.

Agree.  I do want to say in my defense, although no where perfect or close to it, I am not an aggressor. I am not an adversary. I am conscientious and compassionate and understanding.  I am not perfect, I have my share of annoying quirks and hang ups. But I’m not an aggressor.  Often I’m not even a defender (pick my battles) but sometimes enough is enough.

And maybe my more easygoing nature made me a perfect person to manipulate and I was too unawares or willing to excuse bad behavior. Idk.

That said, turning down the tension would be great.

On a side note...I’ve mentioned that there are signs. I’m not a wackadoodle, I promise, but I’ve seen signs at key points in my life.

When my Hs big case came apart and he was devastated, we were away at a favorite spot. There’s this little store I love. I bought two little signs with sayings.

The first...

[UBPDHelp]

can we tweak this a little bit to say ... he isn't acting so much as reacting... reacting to emotions/thoughts/perspectives that might not be logical or entirely visible to you.   not creating or controlling as much as responding,  easily affected, vulnerable too.

Agree, it is more of a reaction.

He is reacting to the stress/anxiety/discomfort inside him.     it's a tea kettle whistling under the boil.   or a bottle of coke that has been shaken and opened.  he spews vileness and feels better for a little while.

Okay.  But why after all this time, if it was there all along, has it just gotten worse and worse the last five years?  Losing a big case and never recovered?

this makes a lot of sense.   there has been a lot of conflict in your relationship for a long while.   you've been caught in a cycle of conflict that has been draining and confusing.   you want a mature and capable partner and it's been glaringly and painfully obvious that's not available.

It’s hard, but helpful to hear. He CAN function incredibly well. Clients love him (or hate him, I suppose).  He can manage some problems BUT if he’s triggered elsewhere, he cannot handle the simplest of things.

10 years ago there were outbursts, but they left as quickly as they came and weren’t so often. It was easier to put away because the good far outweighed the bad.  Now, it’s just so much discord. I just don’t want it.

Is that enough? Am I abandoning him when he is at his worst, because he’s at his worst?  Is this when I’m supposed to stick around — for better or for worse?  I don’t think the worse was meant from your spouse...rather when the world does worse to you.  Idk.
 

Rather than challenge him is this something you could open a dialogue about?   Can you have a calm conversation where you are coming from a good and rested place yourself?    He told this outrageous story,  can you go back to him and say "I was thinking about the senator and the case and I'm wondering if your memory is a little fuzzy about that,  are you sure you got the dates and things right?"    See if he is receptive to a reasonable exchange.    if he is not walk away.    if he is gently probe.     this should be a no conflict conversation.   low stress.   low key.     not a lot of tension.    is that possible?

Possibly. I mean I can do it. Idk how he would react.

When I said I didn’t “challenge” him, I didn’t mean that I was going to rake him over the coals, I just meant I didn’t question what he said in any way. I just let it stand. It was a big national case that happened in the last five years. He worked for the senator 25 years ago, I’m not even sure he could have been confused about dates. Is he telling a story to impress the admissions people?  Does he need to believe he was part of something big?  Idk.

communication has been aggressive and adversarial between the two of you.  regardless if you divorce or stay... turning the tension down between you will help you to move forward on whatever path you pick.

Agree.  I do want to say in my defense, although no where perfect or close to it, I am not an aggressor. I am not an adversary. I am conscientious and compassionate and understanding.  I am not perfect, I have my share of annoying quirks and hang ups. But I’m not an aggressor.  Often I’m not even a defender (pick my battles) but sometimes enough is enough.

And maybe my more easygoing nature made me a perfect person to manipulate and I was too unawares or willing to excuse bad behavior. Idk.

That said, turning down the tension would be great.

On a side note...I’ve mentioned that there are signs everywhere. I’m not a wackadoodle, I promise, but I’ve seen signs at key points in my life.

When my Hs big case came apart and he was devastated, we were away at a favorite spot. There’s this little store I love. I bought two little signs with sayings.

The first... What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lives within us.

That, my friend, was a sign for me.

The second I share...When one door of happiness closes, another one opens, but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us...Helen Keller.

That is where I think I am right now. Just staring at the closing door...maybe two new ones are opening and I don’t know which to go through.

And, not to kill the mood...when I showed my H the signs, he said they were stupid. Like I said, there are signs everywhere.