Frequency of communication with your attorney

[alleyesonme]

I'm currently in the beginning stages of a divorce. The attorney I decided to go with came highly recommended. He's well respected in the local legal community, including by the judges, and he's supposed to be amazing in court. I've heard that many attorneys in this area are scared to go against him at trial. Those are some of the reasons I hired him.

What has been very frustrating for me is that the communication has been sparse and inconsistent at best. Since we're in the early stages of everything, there are a lot of moving parts right now - finances, custody, visitation, fact gathering, evidence, etc. As you all know, this is an absolute nightmare to go through this in general, and I'm also dealing with the reality that my wife took our daughter away without my consent and I'm barely getting to see her.

As you can imagine, every single day feels like the most important day of my life right now, with a number of huge decisions needing to be made quickly. This is an unbelievably stressful and confusing thing to go through, so I need guidance, and I hired this guy to work for me.

In our initial interview, my attorney said that I could email him at any time with any questions I had, and he'd get back to me quickly. However, at least up until this point, that hasn't been the case. There have been a number of important and time-sensitive questions that I've asked that either weren't responded to at all, or weren't responded to for several days.

He'll sometimes send a quick reply saying that he'll give me a call "later," which I've come to discover could mean in 5 minutes, at 9 pm, at 7 am the next day, or never.

I'm trying to avoid coming off as a "difficult" client, but all of the questions I've been asking are important and urgent. I'm considering sending a tactful message stating how I appreciate his help, but that the lack of timely communication is making an already difficult process that much harder for me. However, I'm also worried about how my attorney might react to that message. Will he decide that I'm too difficult to work with and fire me? If so, that in itself looks bad in the judge's eyes, and I may not find an attorney that's as good.

How would you all recommend handling this situation?

[GaGrl]

I think a call or email to clarify expectations would be appropriate. You could remind him that he said you could call with questions and he would get back quickly -- can be clarify what "quickly" means to him. Can he clarify what type of issues are "important and urgent" -- meaning they need a quick response -- as opposed to "important but not urgent. " He might have a very different view than you do -- you are deep in the daily news that is separation and divorce, while he has seen how many of these situations have resolved.

And remember, you are his client, and he works for you. He needs to understand your expectations of him.

[alleyesonme]

I think a call or email to clarify expectations would be appropriate. You could remind him that he said you could call with questions and he would get back quickly -- can be clarify what "quickly" means to him. Can he clarify what type of issues are "important and urgent" -- meaning they need a quick response -- as opposed to "important but not urgent. " He might have a very different view than you do -- you are deep in the daily news that is separation and divorce, while he has seen how many of these situations have resolved.

And remember, you are his client, and he works for you. He needs to understand your expectations of him.

Thank you for the tips.

Have you heard of anyone either on this site or elsewhere that caused an attorney to drop them after asking for increased communication?

[juju2]

Hi All.

have been following your posts.  Am so sorry you are going thru this.

A close relative has a nightmare custody situation. I don't know about attorney.  I have had a couple of dealings w lawyers over personal things, not divorce or custody.  And once I am their client, they pretty much do what they do.  Your attorney came highly regarded.  For some reason.  I think the day to day matters way more to you than anyone. 
The lawyer does this for a living.  It's a job.  This is your life.  Unfortunately, that's the distinction.  Your lawyer is objective.  It's frustrating, I saw it with my stuff, and nothing can be done...i guess you could ask the people who recommended him, did he do x,y,z with you too.?
What is so good about him.?
Remember, no attorney is perfect. 

The last thing you want is to fight a two front war.  You are going to have to trust someone, you picked him. 

No one wants to tell you how horrible a divorce w custody issues is.  You are already hurting.  No one wants to say it's only the beginning...

sorry all I have sounds bad up to this point.

My divorce was simple.  It was the actual lifestyle my ex had and subjected our kids to when they were young that I found out later, that got me...i haven't found anyone with a good divorce, custody, story.  I am sure they are out there...

All I really have is support, try and take care of your well being, have faith. 

Pray.  Have faith.  Do not fight fire with fire, if possible.  That makes a person bitter...
That's what I have seen...

I think I hired an attorney and was disappointed because they weren't my friend.  Once they were hired, the nice guy disappeared...i think if they are good at results, end game.  Then the day to day can be overlooked at some point in the far future...

One colleague is getting a divorce, starting 2nd year of this, maybe because of covid.
Another colleague is getting back together w her ex after 4 years apart.  They have figured out to solve their differences and raise child together...they are at the very beginning of trying again...  I think the covid helped them to see what is important...

Wish I had something wonderful to share.
Tomorrow is a new day.  Tomorrow could be better than today.

j

[ForeverDad]

I think I hired an attorney and was disappointed because they weren't my friend.

juju2 wrote well.  The lawyer has "been there, done that" before, for you this is your first time.  So it can be a matter of Lawyer = objective looking at the big issues and Client = subjective with day-to-day fires and flame-outs.  What matters, and can be harder to discern at first, is whether your lawyer is up to the task.  With all the recommendations, he or she likely is sufficiently qualified.

The members here highly recommend you interview a few counselors and select one you're comfortable with who has experience with these high conflict cases.  They can do the hand holding that your lawyer may not have time to do.  And at a less expensive cost, too!

[kells76]

Hey alleyesonme;

FD mentioned what I was just thinking upon reading juju2's post, too:

The members here highly recommend you interview a few counselors and select one you're comfortable with who has experience with these high conflict cases.  They can do the hand holding that your lawyer may not have time to do.  And at a less expensive cost, too!

The larger support team you have, the better. Each member of your support team will do something a little different, and will do "their thing" the best. Your support team may include a L (like you already have), a counselor or therapist FOR YOU, possibly a child psych or counselor (whether your child sees them or not) to have insight into your child and your child's needs and perceptions, close trusted friends and family, perhaps a spiritual support person/church member/pastor/clergy person... perhaps more.

Have you heard of anyone either on this site or elsewhere that caused an attorney to drop them after asking for increased communication?

You'll need as many types of support as you can get. The support from your L may look like "the way I care about you, my client, is to relentlessly Get Work Done, and my not calling back means I'm working for you". Just speculation. That could be worth a "straight talk" email or call -- "hey, to be completely honest, this is all new to me. I don't want to be a client who gets in his own way. To that end, (a) I'd like to be on the same page with you -- what does "quickly" specifically mean in terms of replies from you? and (b), is there an amount of communication from me that would be too much? I want to make sure that I give you what you need to work effectively.

I can't remember if this is all at once, but probably over the course of a year or two we did have a L, a counselor for me and DH, some consultations with a child T (who the kids didn't see), the kids did end up having a counselor, and a couple sessions with a parenting coordinator. I told my cousin (completely out of our social circle and state) the juicy, bizarre stuff, and leaned on a trusted closer, older friend (in our social circle with Mom/Stepdad) for wiser steps. Plus this group.

Can't recommend T enough. Meet with a couple of them unless you really hit it off with #1. The first visit might be free as you're just seeing if you guys click.

This is painful stuff, we know. 

[MeandThee29]

I think that many of them are struggling with many new cases and constantly changing court procedures, but I'd have issues with this.

My original attorney (now retired), drove the show. If we didn't hear back from the other side in a week, he was on it. I never had to remind him. His calls went through to my ex's attorney, and my questions were always responded to in a timely manner. To save money, I always saved my questions until I had several though.

My second attorney was also initially very responsible and on top of things, but he struggled with working with my ex's attorney. His attorney wouldn't call back and would disappear at times, something he didn't do before. So it was harder to get things done.

Then COVID-19 hit, and I could tell that his focus wasn't the same. I had to remind him how long it had been since we had a response, and we had a phone call where he admitted that he was overwhelmed. So I took a more proactive role, asking for more frequent phone calls and updates. The squeeky wheel gets the grease. Mentally, I needed it off my platter, and I figured that getting his time was going to be even harder with courts reopening and such. So closeout is finished now.

And no, your attorney is not your therapist, but I do think that reasonable response times are part of this. If they are not being responsive, they may have too many clients and need to delegate or pass on new work.

[GaGrl]

I've never heard of an attorney dropping a client for asking for more communication, but be sure you understand that you are paying your lawyer for each and every phone call he makes to you. Many lawyers charge in segments of 6 minutes minimum for a phone call. That adds up. There might also be a minimum for reading and replying to an email.

A counselor can certainly help with working through the "how should I be thinking of feeling about this" issues.

[mart555]

My lawyer has been the same.   Turns out that yes, she's been through this many times and that by doing so she's saving me money, she won't bother responding to anything not worth it because I have to pay for that.  My bills would have been so much higher. 

When it counts, she's on the ball and efficient.   And honestly, I realize how naive I was at first, wanting to address everything immediately.  You cannot do that with a BPD, it would be like feeding a beast. It always wants more. 

[livednlearned]

An organized lawyer would've told you during the interview process what to expect in terms of turnaround, how to minimize costs, and who in the firm you can call if the lawyer is out. My lawyer also sent out batch emails to let her clients know when she was going to be on vacation and when she was going to be in trial and unreachable.

Also, I treated her well while also feeling exasperated, and at one point downright furious. I treated her staff well, I went to her office in person, and I wrote emails that validated how hard she was working for me. I sent flowers to her staff, asked them about their grandchildren, small stuff like that. You can be both exasperated and understanding at the same time.

Maybe write an email to your lawyer with solutions like Hey, how about if I don't hear from you within 48 hours we do x so I can talk myself down off this ledge.

It definitely helps to have a therapist you can talk to. My L told me upfront she was a better lawyer than a therapist and a very very expensive therapist. You need to confide to someone about the outrage you're experiencing having your child taken from you.

Who recommended the lawyer to you? Was it someone who went through a high-conflict divorce? Does this L only do family law, or are there are specialties? Is this someone who is good at litigating in court?

[MeandThee29]

Also, I treated her well while also feeling exasperated, and at one point downright furious. I treated her staff well, I went to her office in person, and I wrote emails that validated how hard she was working for me. I sent flowers to her staff, asked them about their grandchildren, small stuff like that. You can be both exasperated and understanding at the same time.

Yes, I worked very hard at being polite. I gathered that many did not treat them well, and I knew that they truly were doing their best in a difficult field. They often commented how friendly and positive I was. My ex's attorney once asked mine what I was like because there's a joke in divorce law that Mother Teresa never marries Attila the Hun. If one client is over-the-top difficult, that's usually true of the spouse. But no, said my attorney, she's a model client in every way and is easy to work with. I have to think that helped.

One time we were discussing something very difficult, and I got very quiet, trying to process it. My attorney got up and walked around the table with the kleenex. It surprised me! I told him, no, I just needed to think. He observed that some women get very quiet before they burst into tears, so he was ready (LOL). But no, he was not a therapist. I never cried with him, but I did cry a few times in the elevator afterwards. It was just so overwhelming at times, but I didn't consider it to be his job to deal with my tears.

My now-retired attorney had been in divorce law for over forty years. He told me several times that he truly loved coming to work every day. Can you imagine?

[alleyesonme]

Hi All.

have been following your posts.  Am so sorry you are going thru this.

A close relative has a nightmare custody situation. I don't know about attorney.  I have had a couple of dealings w lawyers over personal things, not divorce or custody.  And once I am their client, they pretty much do what they do.  Your attorney came highly regarded.  For some reason.  I think the day to day matters way more to you than anyone. 
The lawyer does this for a living.  It's a job.  This is your life.  Unfortunately, that's the distinction.  Your lawyer is objective.  It's frustrating, I saw it with my stuff, and nothing can be done...i guess you could ask the people who recommended him, did he do x,y,z with you too.?
What is so good about him.?
Remember, no attorney is perfect. 

The last thing you want is to fight a two front war.  You are going to have to trust someone, you picked him. 

No one wants to tell you how horrible a divorce w custody issues is.  You are already hurting.  No one wants to say it's only the beginning...

sorry all I have sounds bad up to this point.

My divorce was simple.  It was the actual lifestyle my ex had and subjected our kids to when they were young that I found out later, that got me...i haven't found anyone with a good divorce, custody, story.  I am sure they are out there...

All I really have is support, try and take care of your well being, have faith. 

Pray.  Have faith.  Do not fight fire with fire, if possible.  That makes a person bitter...
That's what I have seen...

I think I hired an attorney and was disappointed because they weren't my friend.  Once they were hired, the nice guy disappeared...i think if they are good at results, end game.  Then the day to day can be overlooked at some point in the far future...

One colleague is getting a divorce, starting 2nd year of this, maybe because of covid.
Another colleague is getting back together w her ex after 4 years apart.  They have figured out to solve their differences and raise child together...they are at the very beginning of trying again...  I think the covid helped them to see what is important...

Wish I had something wonderful to share.
Tomorrow is a new day.  Tomorrow could be better than today.

j

Thank you, as always, for your support. You're absolutely right that the last thing I want is to fight a two front war. I'm trying to avoid that if possible, but I also need assurance that we're doing everything "right" to get the best result possible.

The recommendations I got all said that he's amazing at trial and that no attorney wants to go up against him. There's actually a review of him online from a past client that mentions that communication may be sparse early on, but it all pays off at trial. So that's what causes me to have some optimism here, but it also feels like a gamble, because I'm the one that has to suffer the consequences if it doesn't all pay off at trial.

[alleyesonme]

juju2 wrote well.  The lawyer has "been there, done that" before, for you this is your first time.  So it can be a matter of Lawyer = objective looking at the big issues and Client = subjective with day-to-day fires and flame-outs.  What matters, and can be harder to discern at first, is whether your lawyer is up to the task.  With all the recommendations, he or she likely is sufficiently qualified.

The members here highly recommend you interview a few counselors and select one you're comfortable with who has experience with these high conflict cases.  They can do the hand holding that your lawyer may not have time to do.  And at a less expensive cost, too!

Thank you for the reply.

By counselor, do you mean a therapist? Or a divorce coach?

[alleyesonme]

Hey alleyesonme;

FD mentioned what I was just thinking upon reading juju2's post, too:

The larger support team you have, the better. Each member of your support team will do something a little different, and will do "their thing" the best. Your support team may include a L (like you already have), a counselor or therapist FOR YOU, possibly a child psych or counselor (whether your child sees them or not) to have insight into your child and your child's needs and perceptions, close trusted friends and family, perhaps a spiritual support person/church member/pastor/clergy person... perhaps more.

You'll need as many types of support as you can get. The support from your L may look like "the way I care about you, my client, is to relentlessly Get Work Done, and my not calling back means I'm working for you". Just speculation. That could be worth a "straight talk" email or call -- "hey, to be completely honest, this is all new to me. I don't want to be a client who gets in his own way. To that end, (a) I'd like to be on the same page with you -- what does "quickly" specifically mean in terms of replies from you? and (b), is there an amount of communication from me that would be too much? I want to make sure that I give you what you need to work effectively.

I can't remember if this is all at once, but probably over the course of a year or two we did have a L, a counselor for me and DH, some consultations with a child T (who the kids didn't see), the kids did end up having a counselor, and a couple sessions with a parenting coordinator. I told my cousin (completely out of our social circle and state) the juicy, bizarre stuff, and leaned on a trusted closer, older friend (in our social circle with Mom/Stepdad) for wiser steps. Plus this group.

Can't recommend T enough. Meet with a couple of them unless you really hit it off with #1. The first visit might be free as you're just seeing if you guys click.

This is painful stuff, we know. 

Awesome insight here - thank you.

I'm slowly but surely building a support team, so that's starting to help. As you all know, though, this is still awful no matter who supports you.

What age were your kids when you got divorced? My daughter is two, so I'm not sure if that's too young for me to see a child T on her behalf. It's definitely something I've considered though, and I'll do that as the process unfolds if it'll help her and me.

Great advice about the "straight talk" email or call. Fortunately, the communication has gradually gotten a little better since my initial post in this thread, so I haven't needed to send that message yet, but now feel better prepared if it becomes necessary.

[alleyesonme]

I think that many of them are struggling with many new cases and constantly changing court procedures, but I'd have issues with this.

My original attorney (now retired), drove the show. If we didn't hear back from the other side in a week, he was on it. I never had to remind him. His calls went through to my ex's attorney, and my questions were always responded to in a timely manner. To save money, I always saved my questions until I had several though.

My second attorney was also initially very responsible and on top of things, but he struggled with working with my ex's attorney. His attorney wouldn't call back and would disappear at times, something he didn't do before. So it was harder to get things done.

Then COVID-19 hit, and I could tell that his focus wasn't the same. I had to remind him how long it had been since we had a response, and we had a phone call where he admitted that he was overwhelmed. So I took a more proactive role, asking for more frequent phone calls and updates. The squeeky wheel gets the grease. Mentally, I needed it off my platter, and I figured that getting his time was going to be even harder with courts reopening and such. So closeout is finished now.

And no, your attorney is not your therapist, but I do think that reasonable response times are part of this. If they are not being responsive, they may have too many clients and need to delegate or pass on new work.

Thank you for the advice.

Did your original attorney retire in the midst of the divorce? If so, did he recommend the second attorney? I've heard that some judges don't think highly of someone who changes attorneys, but this was obviously completely outside of your control. Did you feel like it affected how the judge viewed you?

Great point about the impact COVID is having on everyone. As you know, there's never a good time for a custody dispute, but this is probably the worst time possible.

[alleyesonme]

I've never heard of an attorney dropping a client for asking for more communication, but be sure you understand that you are paying your lawyer for each and every phone call he makes to you. Many lawyers charge in segments of 6 minutes minimum for a phone call. That adds up. There might also be a minimum for reading and replying to an email.

A counselor can certainly help with working through the "how should I be thinking of feeling about this" issues.

Thank you. I've tried to save most of my questions to ask them in clusters so as to save money, as you're right that this all adds up quickly.

This might be a stupid question, but do you have any tips for finding a counselor with experience in high conflict divorces?

[alleyesonme]

My lawyer has been the same.   Turns out that yes, she's been through this many times and that by doing so she's saving me money, she won't bother responding to anything not worth it because I have to pay for that.  My bills would have been so much higher. 

When it counts, she's on the ball and efficient.   And honestly, I realize how naive I was at first, wanting to address everything immediately.  You cannot do that with a BPD, it would be like feeding a beast. It always wants more. 

Thanks for sharing. I really hope that this pays off for me just as it has for you.

[alleyesonme]

An organized lawyer would've told you during the interview process what to expect in terms of turnaround, how to minimize costs, and who in the firm you can call if the lawyer is out. My lawyer also sent out batch emails to let her clients know when she was going to be on vacation and when she was going to be in trial and unreachable.

Also, I treated her well while also feeling exasperated, and at one point downright furious. I treated her staff well, I went to her office in person, and I wrote emails that validated how hard she was working for me. I sent flowers to her staff, asked them about their grandchildren, small stuff like that. You can be both exasperated and understanding at the same time.

Maybe write an email to your lawyer with solutions like Hey, how about if I don't hear from you within 48 hours we do x so I can talk myself down off this ledge.

It definitely helps to have a therapist you can talk to. My L told me upfront she was a better lawyer than a therapist and a very very expensive therapist. You need to confide to someone about the outrage you're experiencing having your child taken from you.

Who recommended the lawyer to you? Was it someone who went through a high-conflict divorce? Does this L only do family law, or are there are specialties? Is this someone who is good at litigating in court?

He did tell me what to expect as far as communication, but it hasn't been as prompt or regular as he originally indicated it'd be. That's what has been so frustrating, but it has slightly improved over the past week or so.

Thank you for the tips about how to treat his firm's staff - I'll start doing more of that. I had a therapist that I was working with, but lost her due to a COVID-related insurance issue, so I need to find a new one now. That's one of my top priorities for this coming week, so I hope that'll help me.

Yes, all my attorney does is domestic relations, and what I kept hearing is that he's great in court and that no one in this area wants to go against him in court. I heard that from several other attorneys, and he told me that he's handled a ton of high conflict divorces over the years. His reputation in court was what pushed him over the top for me when it came time to select an attorney.

[alleyesonme]

Yes, I worked very hard at being polite. I gathered that many did not treat them well, and I knew that they truly were doing their best in a difficult field. They often commented how friendly and positive I was. My ex's attorney once asked mine what I was like because there's a joke in divorce law that Mother Teresa never marries Attila the Hun. If one client is over-the-top difficult, that's usually true of the spouse. But no, said my attorney, she's a model client in every way and is easy to work with. I have to think that helped.

One time we were discussing something very difficult, and I got very quiet, trying to process it. My attorney got up and walked around the table with the kleenex. It surprised me! I told him, no, I just needed to think. He observed that some women get very quiet before they burst into tears, so he was ready (LOL). But no, he was not a therapist. I never cried with him, but I did cry a few times in the elevator afterwards. It was just so overwhelming at times, but I didn't consider it to be his job to deal with my tears.

My now-retired attorney had been in divorce law for over forty years. He told me several times that he truly loved coming to work every day. Can you imagine?

Thank you for sharing. I can't imagine how emotionally draining it'd be to handle divorces for a living. I'm glad your former attorney enjoyed it though.

I hear you about how overwhelming this is, and I understand that this is just the beginning. I consider myself to be a very strong person, but this is requiring much more strength than I ever thought was possible.

[ForeverDad]

By counselor, do you mean a therapist? Or a divorce coach?

By any other name a rose would still be beautiful.  Okay, might be a misquote but likely there's not that much difference between counselor vs therapist.  How I've generally applied "split the difference" nonprofessionally is that the reasonably normal spouse and the children have sessions with counselors and the dysfunctional spouse meets with therapists.  However, I've often seen the two terms used virtually interchangeably.

This article provided some insight.  There are differences yet quite a bit of overlap.

In the most rudimentary sense, counseling usually errs on the practical side. Counselors are focused on questions like: How do we fix this? How do we get your needs met? What can you start doing today?  Psychotherapy typically focuses on the theoretical side. Why do you feel that way? Where did that come from? What's the origin of this attitude or habit or problem?

"A supervisor once explained it to me this way... A client in session says, 'I think there are people outside the door listening to us.' A psychotherapist asks, 'Why do you think that? Do you feel this way often?' A counselor walks over and opens the door. In other words, therapists are more about helping you understand yourself and how you perceive the world, while a counselor finds pragmatic solutions."

[livednlearned]

what I kept hearing is that he's great in court and that no one in this area wants to go against him in court.

Ah, ok. This make sense. He's probably a good litigator. Not all lawyers are.

If so, then he's not afraid to go to court, which is arguably better for those of us destined to become high-conflict cases. It may also mean that he's in court a bunch, and that will make it harder for him to do office stuff.

I'm glad the communication got better. Fingers crossed you start to see some movement.

[alleyesonme]

By any other name a rose would still be beautiful.  Okay, might be a misquote but likely there's not that much difference between counselor vs therapist.  How I've generally applied "split the difference" nonprofessionally is that the reasonably normal spouse and the children have sessions with counselors and the dysfunctional spouse meets with therapists.  However, I've often seen the two terms used virtually interchangeably.

This article provided some insight.  There are differences yet quite a bit of overlap.

Thank you for the clarification. I assumed they were the same thing, but now I know. With that in mind, do you have any tips for how to find a counselor (rather than a therapist)?

[alleyesonme]

Ah, ok. This make sense. He's probably a good litigator. Not all lawyers are.

If so, then he's not afraid to go to court, which is arguably better for those of us destined to become high-conflict cases. It may also mean that he's in court a bunch, and that will make it harder for him to do office stuff.

I'm glad the communication got better. Fingers crossed you start to see some movement.

Exactly, and that's why I chose him. I figured that this will most likely be a high-conflict case that doesn't end anytime soon, so I need the best litigator possible. In an ideal world, he'd also be a great communicator throughout the process, but if I had to choose one or the other, I think his ability to litigate is most important.

Same here - thank you for the support.

[MeandThee29]

Thank you for the advice.

Did your original attorney retire in the midst of the divorce? If so, did he recommend the second attorney? I've heard that some judges don't think highly of someone who changes attorneys, but this was obviously completely outside of your control. Did you feel' like it affected how the judge viewed you?

Great point about the impact COVID is having on everyone. As you know, there's never a good time for a custody dispute, but this is probably the worst time possible.

I was fortunate in that he had an associate who had done some of my documents and who had answered questions several times on my case. So my original attorney told me that he was going to put extra effort into my case to get it further along and then turn it over to his associate while they were together, and then my case would go with the associate to a new firm that had given him a good offer. My original attorney closed the firm with his retirment.

As it turned out, he got the agreement finally signed and then he gave my case to his associate. I also picked a strong litigator, and the threat of court is what got it signed without actually going to court. So you will have that type of leverage with a strong litigator. Then associate just needed to send a letter to the judge that he was taking over the case within the same firm and then would take my case to a new firm on a certain date. No problem.

Then the associate did my closeout. He truly is a good attorney, but I think the times are stressing even the good ones. When I talked to him last he was preparing for several trials for cases he had taken from my original attorney that looked like they were actually going to happen. So good that mine is done.

[kells76]

Thank you for the clarification. I assumed they were the same thing, but now I know. With that in mind, do you have any tips for how to find a counselor (rather than a therapist)?

Hey, I learned something new along with you!

So, DH and I were "lucky" in that ... well, our situation with our counselor is unique, out-of-the-box, and works really well for us.

Way back when DH and his kids' mom were in MC together, our current C was their MC. And, way back when DH's best friend was married to someone else, before he got married (quickly) to the kids' mom (sigh... N/BPD drama), our C was his MC. We are in sort of a small sub-community in a larger city. So when my C from ~8 yrs ago told me I had to "graduate" from her, DH and I looked around a bit but ended up going with current C. He's older and has a LOT of "been there done that" experience under his belt, plus had personal experience with Mom and Stepdad both "in the office" and in our community. He had been licensed for decades but decided to go unlicensed so that he could have more leeway to do what he thought was most helpful for his clients. I wouldn't see someone young and inexperienced and unlicensed, but with him it makes a lot of sense.

So, anyway, if you have a church or community group you're involved with, I'd start there with asking around about C's. It's tricky because a license isn't necessarily a guarantee of experience with PD's, though it's not nothing, either. Pastoral or spiritual counseling could be a good start if you just need to find someone that you're comfortable with, right off the bat. That person "should" also be ok if after a few sessions you are like "You know, thanks for your time, and I'm feeling like I need someone who is a different fit for me -- would you help me with some recommendations for C's you know who could deal with a situation like mine?"

What age were your kids when you got divorced? My daughter is two, so I'm not sure if that's too young for me to see a child T on her behalf. It's definitely something I've considered though, and I'll do that as the process unfolds if it'll help her and me.

DH's kids were 6 and 4 when the divorce was final -- the paperwork part went fast for him and his kids' mom, only ~6 months. She saved all the conflict, foot-dragging, etc for later, yay 

From my perspective, it couldn't hurt to meet up with a child T even when she's 2. You can bring questions like "when is it just normal 2 year old behavior, and when should I be worried, what signs should I be looking for to step up professional involvement, how can I defuse tantrums, what does it look like to give her what she needs right now during the divorce, if her mom does X Y or Z how can I respond in D's life for the best". You wouldn't even necessarily need to bring D along -- you can meet up with the child T (maybe find one through your local university?) just 1x1, bring your questions, and if that's the only session you need, great. If not, you've already met a professional who could help down the road.

For me it just felt like a weight off to know that I COULD reach out again and contact this person if I had to -- that the support was there a phone call away, even if I never had to.

Exactly, and that's why I chose him. I figured that this will most likely be a high-conflict case that doesn't end anytime soon, so I need the best litigator possible. In an ideal world, he'd also be a great communicator throughout the process, but if I had to choose one or the other, I think his ability to litigate is most important.

Good to hear. Yeah, we live in a world of trade-offs. That makes a lot of sense to "aim high" right now, even if you "lose a bit" on the "lower" stuff. I guess it's like a turbo kicking in -- doesn't happen at low speed, but if you escalate enough, wow, it makes a difference at higher velocities.

[ForeverDad]

It's tricky because a license isn't necessarily a guarantee of experience with PD's, though it's not nothing, either.

In the final months before my separation and divorce I did attempt to seek marital counseling, did my research based on the person having a degree.

I tried to do it perfectly the first (and only) time trying joint counseling.  I thought being female and having a degree would make a difference for my ex.  It didn't.  Ex refused, even said she'd sue.   But she said she'd attend to "help" ForeverDad in counseling.  Good thing the director said No to that.  But after 3 sessions all that got done was FOO questions about my history and absolutely no suggestions about how to deal with my increasingly high conflict spouse.  Looking back, I can't believe I went 3 times with no suggestions whatsoever.  So I agree, a degree does not mean a person is the most helpful.

I didn't even learn about Personality Disorders until 3 months before our abrupt separation, I had called the local university hospital seeking a home visit and the man on the phone said, "Sorry, no can do, you live just outside the county limits, but sounds like a Personality Dysfunction."  My subsequent internet searches opened my eyes wide.  And this was months after I'd been to a lettered therapist for three visits and all the T wanted to do was delve endlessly into my FOO background, not one suggestion about my ex's extreme behaviors in 3 sessions.

Wow, re-reading that post I now realize I had found a therapist and not a counselor.

Pastoral or spiritual counseling could be a good start...

Understand that some of these resources can have the perspective that a couple should keep trying no matter what and it will all work out.  That's excellent under normal circumstances with reasonably normal spouses but when you're dealing with an acting out disorder and the other spouse is refusing to apply good counsel... well, it could be sabotaging you, though intended well.  After all, even the oldest book around recognizes there is divorce.  A wise person will accept that some relationships just can't be fixed if both aren't working to make it successful.

[alleyesonme]

I was fortunate in that he had an associate who had done some of my documents and who had answered questions several times on my case. So my original attorney told me that he was going to put extra effort into my case to get it further along and then turn it over to his associate while they were together, and then my case would go with the associate to a new firm that had given him a good offer. My original attorney closed the firm with his retirment.

As it turned out, he got the agreement finally signed and then he gave my case to his associate. I also picked a strong litigator, and the threat of court is what got it signed without actually going to court. So you will have that type of leverage with a strong litigator. Then associate just needed to send a letter to the judge that he was taking over the case within the same firm and then would take my case to a new firm on a certain date. No problem.

Then the associate did my closeout. He truly is a good attorney, but I think the times are stressing even the good ones. When I talked to him last he was preparing for several trials for cases he had taken from my original attorney that looked like they were actually going to happen. So good that mine is done.

Awesome to hear that it was such a smooth transition and that your original attorney made sure you were in a good place before passing the baton.

[alleyesonme]

Hey, I learned something new along with you!

So, DH and I were "lucky" in that ... well, our situation with our counselor is unique, out-of-the-box, and works really well for us.

Way back when DH and his kids' mom were in MC together, our current C was their MC. And, way back when DH's best friend was married to someone else, before he got married (quickly) to the kids' mom (sigh... N/BPD drama), our C was his MC. We are in sort of a small sub-community in a larger city. So when my C from ~8 yrs ago told me I had to "graduate" from her, DH and I looked around a bit but ended up going with current C. He's older and has a LOT of "been there done that" experience under his belt, plus had personal experience with Mom and Stepdad both "in the office" and in our community. He had been licensed for decades but decided to go unlicensed so that he could have more leeway to do what he thought was most helpful for his clients. I wouldn't see someone young and inexperienced and unlicensed, but with him it makes a lot of sense.

So, anyway, if you have a church or community group you're involved with, I'd start there with asking around about C's. It's tricky because a license isn't necessarily a guarantee of experience with PD's, though it's not nothing, either. Pastoral or spiritual counseling could be a good start if you just need to find someone that you're comfortable with, right off the bat. That person "should" also be ok if after a few sessions you are like "You know, thanks for your time, and I'm feeling like I need someone who is a different fit for me -- would you help me with some recommendations for C's you know who could deal with a situation like mine?"

DH's kids were 6 and 4 when the divorce was final -- the paperwork part went fast for him and his kids' mom, only ~6 months. She saved all the conflict, foot-dragging, etc for later, yay 

From my perspective, it couldn't hurt to meet up with a child T even when she's 2. You can bring questions like "when is it just normal 2 year old behavior, and when should I be worried, what signs should I be looking for to step up professional involvement, how can I defuse tantrums, what does it look like to give her what she needs right now during the divorce, if her mom does X Y or Z how can I respond in D's life for the best". You wouldn't even necessarily need to bring D along -- you can meet up with the child T (maybe find one through your local university?) just 1x1, bring your questions, and if that's the only session you need, great. If not, you've already met a professional who could help down the road.

For me it just felt like a weight off to know that I COULD reach out again and contact this person if I had to -- that the support was there a phone call away, even if I never had to.

Good to hear. Yeah, we live in a world of trade-offs. That makes a lot of sense to "aim high" right now, even if you "lose a bit" on the "lower" stuff. I guess it's like a turbo kicking in -- doesn't happen at low speed, but if you escalate enough, wow, it makes a difference at higher velocities.

Thank you for all of the info and advice on counselors. That's so cool how everything worked out for you guys in that regard. I'm looking for one as we speak.

Great tip about meeting with a child therapist. I just got a strong recommendation for one today, so I'm planning to get the ball rolling on that very soon.

Exactly - I think the momentum is about to shift significantly in my favor here, and am very curious to see how my ex handles that. And then if we get close to trial and I still have a lot of momentum, will she continue to fight it or look to settle knowing what she may be facing at trial?

[alleyesonme]

In the final months before my separation and divorce I did attempt to seek marital counseling, did my research based on the person having a degree.

Wow, re-reading that post I now realize I had found a therapist and not a counselor.

Understand that some of these resources can have the perspective that a couple should keep trying no matter what and it will all work out.  That's excellent under normal circumstances with reasonably normal spouses but when you're dealing with an acting out disorder and the other spouse is refusing to apply good counsel... well, it could be sabotaging you, though intended well.  After all, even the oldest book around recognizes there is divorce.  A wise person will accept that some relationships just can't be fixed if both aren't working to make it successful.

It's a shame - but not at all surprising - that your ex refused to take the counseling seriously. Unfortunately, it seems like that's common with BP's.

[MeandThee29]

It's a shame - but not at all surprising - that your ex refused to take the counseling seriously. Unfortunately, it seems like that's common with BP's.

Yes, that's true in general of counselling. The people who are having trouble dealing with other people and want to change go. The people who are causing problems and don't want to change don't go. People with personality disorders don't see themselves as causing problems and blame others more than they have a desire to change. There are a few exceptions, but that's the trend.

[alleyesonme]

Yes, that's true in general of counselling. The people who are having trouble dealing with other people and want to change go. The people who are causing problems and don't want to change don't go. People with personality disorders don't see themselves as causing problems and blame others more than they have a desire to change. There are a few exceptions, but that's the trend.

Exactly. Most of us here can relate, as we've lived that life every day with our BP loved ones.