Need help with my wife

[Brooklyn1974]

Been married 16 years this august.  She was classified as BPD by a psychologist about 5 years ago but quit therapy after the first month.  We have a 12 yr old daughter.  She has cheated on me twice and is also a recovering alcoholic.  She only goes to her AA meetings like once a week and does not have a sponsor (she was in rehab twice but quit both times).  Her parents are divorced, she had a lot of emotional abuse from her dad and sexual abuse from others. Her attitude for the longest time seems like she just doesn't care.  I quit helping her financially, I must have helped her with her bills in excess of $20k.  She took out all her retirement to pay her bills.  Her dad is naracassistic and has a close relationship w my wife's ex-bf (before we met).  Three weeks ago my daughter woke me up to tell me mom was not at home.  Had a text message on my phone from her saying "I am getting surgery, my mom will pick me up".  We had NO clue this was going to happen.  Called her mom and she thought I knew.  It was an elective surgery (tummy tuck).  She used the rest of the money on this surgery.  Last Friday she told us she was moving out, my daughter has high anxiety due to the way my wife has been treating her.  I had to leave with my daughter Friday night because it was not safe.  Since then my wife has been staying over at the house but refuses to give any reassurance that things will turn around, just that she is for now only staying 30 days.  Mind you, this apt. is owned by her ex-bf, which was setup by him and her dad.  My daughter is a total mess.  I told my wife that you cannot string me or my daughter along, she is blaming me with blanket statements.  She has been emotionally and was physically abusive in the past with me.  She blames me for my high anxiety and when I tell her I need open communication and some reassurance her reply is "I shouldn't have to adjust".  Last night she came home with my daughter, my daughter tried to lock the door before my wife came in.  My daughter told me that her mom got a new phone and there was a message from her ex-bf.  I confronted her about this, her reply is the communication with him is strictly business and the reason she got a new phone (even though her's is brand new that I got her) was because I checked the phone logs.  I told her when I check it, because of the situation.  She just calls me 'nuts' and 'crazy'.  I have counseling setup for Monday but when a BPD starts doing things like this, what is the best course of action?  Emotionally I am all over the place from being pissed to wondering how I can get her off this ledge.  She said she needs "space" but is at the house majority of the time and has been there every night since.  Last night was a bad argument and I told her it's probably best for you not to come over tonight.  Do I show the tough love or act like everything is fine?  

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[babyducks]

Hi Brooklyn and welcome to this website.

Wow, you certainly have a lot going on.    That's a lot to be dealing with.

How much do you know and understand about BPD?    It's a complex illness and understanding it certainly isn't intuitive.

At the very top of this message board is a thread that is always pinned there.   It's called LESSONS.     Here is the link.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.0

I would strongly suggest you jump in there and read and click on all the supporting links.     There are a lot of resources here at BPDFamily.

what is the best course of action?  Emotionally I am all over the place from being pissed to wondering how I can get her off this ledge.  She said she needs "space" but is at the house majority of the time and has been there every night since.  Last night was a bad argument and I told her it's probably best for you not to come over tonight.  Do I show the tough love or act like everything is fine? 

I would suggest the first thing to do is what we tend to call here 'stopping the bleeding'.     it's very easy to get into one of those circular arguments.    you know... the discussions that go around and around and eventually no one is even sure what the argument is about.

nothing ever gets resolved.    both people end up hurt.     

for our partners Feelings=Facts, they have a hard time communicating when emotionally churned up, they want to control the dynamic.    for us we like to "be right" too. we can't let it go either.  we need to prove our point. we hope that we can change their minds.   we hope that we can get them to understand.

and that is fertile ground for a circular argument.    round and round it goes.

I would suggest the first thing you do is take some time for emotions on both side to cool.     stop the bleeding.     

the other thing I would mention is what we here call JADE.   
Justify
Argue
Defend
Explain.

Circular arguments are full of JADE.    from us too.    Don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.    If you find yourself covering the same points,   Stop and take a time out.    Tell your wife.. I have to take a break from this right now... let's talk again later.

what do you think?    any of that make any sense?

'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you so much for responding.  I went and read some of the lessons (I will read the rest later) but yes I am co-dependent on her.  She often says 'You are acting like a father to me' and in a weird way I almost have to look after her as my second daughter.  My focus has been so strained on making sure no new 'bad' surprises happen that it has made me full of anxiety.  On top of that, it feels like I don't get any respect from her.  I can easily get sex from her but I can't remember the last time she had come up to me and hug me, it's been years.  The only time we kiss is during sex.  It just feels so one-sided and with her doing this is like the icing on the cake.

I need to start taking better care of myself for me and my daughter's sake.  She's has told my wife that 'Mom, I am the adult here because of the bad decisions you make' and yet my wife will sit there in silence.

I guess I need advice for tonight.  If she asks to stay the night, do I let her?  If she does do I start with the SET?  Before I left for work this morning she said 'Why can't you just be cool with all of this?'.  My thinking is 'What? Am I living in the twilight zone?"  Will there ever be a time that she can show me emotional compassion?  Is there anything I can do to for her to get some security back from her and not have anymore of this craziness happen?  I know that's something long away but do BPDs have that capability in them?  She sees a counselor next Thursday but she is not a psychologist.  I gave her the choice between this new one and her previous psychologist and she wanted to start fresh.

[Harri]

Hi.  I am getting here late so I don't know if you have already talked to your pwBPD.  Do you want her to stay?  If not then yes, I think SET would be good to use.  Do you have some statements in your mind that you can use? Set, along with some of the other tools can take some practice but it is well worth the effort.

Will there ever be a time that she can show me emotional compassion?  Is there anything I can do to for her to get some security back from her and not have anymore of this craziness happen?  I know that's something long away but do BPDs have that capability in them?

We have seen even some of the worst situations turn around for the better so it is not hopeless.  You are right, if it is going to happen it will take time.  There are many pwBPD (people with BPD) who do work on their self and who do get better and make changes.  Change in the relationship can also happen with you using the tools (like SET and Don't JADE) even if your wife is not in therapy.  So there is hope.  It is a tough battle though it can be done.

Let us know how things go tonight.  You will get the most benefit from the board with regular participation here, not just when you are in crisis so I hope you keep coming back.   

[babyducks]

SET is always good to use, before the conversation becomes intense, while communicating ordinary things, it helps building a validating environment.

Keeping the family together and supporting your wife are good goals, still as Harri said this will take time.   It's going to be a marathon not a sprint.

this is always difficult to hear but the best first step is to turn your energy and attention on to you.   to improve your validation skills.    to improve your communication tools.    to find ways to regulate your own emotions so you are not always on the roller coaster of intense emotional reactions.

how are you doing today?

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you for replying.  I will be posting daily on here because I know it's going to be such a huge benefit.  With the SET is it something I do for every conversation?  Even non-crisis?

Last night my daughter had her dance class, which is close to my wife's apartment.  We have 3 dogs, my wife already took the one dog over and my daughter was extremely upset.  That was the night my wife left.  My daughter copes so much better with her animals.  Anyway, I texted my wife do you want me to pick up our daughter or do you want to and stay the night?  She replied for me to pick her up and if she was going to come over it would be later that she is resting.  So I had to drive across town to get her.  Before I left she texted me and asked if I could just drop off the smaller dog and she would come back that night.  I was against the idea but I am trying to keep the peace.  

When she got there she had no furniture except for a table and chairs.  My daughter is upset because my wife keeps saying it's for only the month, however my wife's dad (who again set this up for her along w her ex-bf) keeps trying to push more furniture on her.  Anyway my daughter was only over there once.  When I got to the apt. (my daughter was still at dance) I noticed a couch and patio chairs.  All I said was 'Oh,  you got patio furniture' and her reply was 'My dad brought it over'.  I know my daughter will have another breakdown when she goes over the next time and sees this.  My daughter has totally pulled away from her.  She even told me last night (she has a ballet recital Saturday) that I don't want mom coming, I want Aunt K.  We only could get 5 tickets for the show.  She works so hard at this and has been doing this for years.  When I went over to the apt. she looked terrible.  She said she was exhausted.  

So I picked up my dsughter and gently told her that I took the one dog over because I am trying to keep the peace.  I got home at 8:30 and texted my wife and she just replied 'Ok'.  As time went on, she wasn't showing.  It wasn't until 9:30 that she said she was going to get a shower and leave for the house.  She didn't get to the house until almost 11pm and my daughter was asleep.  She was waiting to see her dog.  I apologized to my daughter and told her I thought mom was going to bring him much earlier.  Before my wife got home my daughter said she just wanted her dog and did not want mom to stay.

After she got to the house we didn't talk about what was going on and I did not bring up what my daughter said.  I figured that would just cause more harm.  She said her body hurts and so I just rubbed her back some.  She went upstairs to sleep and I slept downstairs with my daughter.

This morning I took my daughter to my folks place before work, she did not want to stay with her mom.  My wife was still sleeping when I left an gave her a quick kiss on her forehead.  

I have no clue what's going to happen tonight, do I just not contact her?  Do I let her come to me first? This is so difficult it feels like a balancing act because I am comforting my daughter, trying to get my wife off the ledge and hopefully think rational for a little and also taking care of the house, dogs, etc..  

I am exhausted.  I am on fumes.  I took off tomorrow and going to take my daughter to breakfast.  My daughter is worried that this weekend mom is going to go with her dad to the pool halls or bars and drink.  Her dad would be up for it, even though he knows she's an alcoholic and is in AA.  I worry too, a lot.  I know it doesn't do any good but I am a fixer.  She has lied so much that it is hard to believe her.

What upsets me the most is that before this happened, my daughter and wife did everything together.  They were inseparable.  Where one went, the other did.  Constantly spending time together.  Now it seems like I'm the only parent and though I love my daughter dearly, I can't replace mom.  My daughter is hurt deeply.  I keep validating her feelings and encourage her to express them.  I was told by the psychologist years ago that when my wife does awful things to never tell your daughter 'Mom still loves you' because what it will do is confuse my daughter and associate bad behavior with love.  

My wife never discipline our daughter, it was always me.  I would give my daughter a warning and then either do time-out, take away a privilege etc.  My wife would just lash our and be sarcastic.  I would try to explain to her the right way of doing things but it fell on deaf ears.  I then realized that I don't believe my wife has the capability to discipline her.  My wife has gone through so much abuse in her past, including losing a baby during birth (before she met me).  She mentioned once that no one knows what it's like to lose a baby and that could be the reason

I think I could handle this better if I had some sort of security.  Something I could hold onto to tell myself that things will be ok.  It hurts so much to come home to an empty house.  I think about the past with her and focus on the good times.  It's not like it was all bad, we had many good memories together.  It hurts because I wonder why she can't think back to those and say to herself 'We had great times and my husband is there for me so I will do my part to get through this as a family'.  But.. like last night, she didn't even ask how our daughter has been doing.

I know when I use 'I understand' when we disagree that it helps a lot.  She usually bottles it up.

Sorry, I know this is long it's just that I know you can truly understand the situation where as my family who is supportive can't see the deeper side of this.

[babyducks]

Hello Brooklyn1974,

Let me make sure I understand what you are describing, if that is okay?   

 Last Friday your wife told you and your daughter that she was moving out.    Friday night became unsafe and you and your daughter had to leave your house.

 Your wife has gone to an apartment which has an unclear and possibly suspect origin.  It might be from your wife's father,   her ex boyfriend might be involved.    Your wife has said this moving out is for 30 days but that seems uncertain too.

Your wife is moving between your family home and the new apartment in random ways.    The family pets are also moving between the family home and the new apartment.

Your daughter who is 12 is distraught with the disruption to her life and stability.

You want to keep your family together and get help for your wife.   She has agreed to see a new therapist but hasn't actually gone yet.

Did I get that mostly right?    Any parts you need to correct?

'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

Yes you got it exactly right.  Her ex-bf owns the place and she is renting an apt there.  He doesn't live there.  Her dad works for her ex-bf but also goes out and does things with him all the time.  I have not accused my wife of cheating, though with her getting a new phone makes me more anxious.

It would have helped some if she would have gotten a place that was not connected with her ex or perhaps lived with her mom in the country and is very peaceful.  It's just the combination of everything gets my head messed up and I have to keep reminding myself not to let my mind wander to thoughts that she might be doing something wrong.

She told me that it's not about living the single life, that she needs peace and space.  Though isn't that cliché for saying 'I am moving on for good?'  My insecurities kick in and it turns into an argument when I express those. 

[babyducks]

thanks for explaining.     that's a lot to deal with and a lot to sort through.

let's start here.   I am sure that we will come back to this a lot but its a good place to kick off from.

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

typically what is found is that people in these high conflict unstable relationships have poor boundaries.

The terminology of "setting boundaries" is misleading and often mistaken to mean "giving an ultimatum."

When we speak of the boundaries we are really speaking about our personal values and our need to get them in focus and live with more conviction. This is a lifestyle, not a quick fix to an interpersonal squabble.

One of the first boundaries you may want to consider is what is acceptable to you, what treatment from your wife is acceptable behavior that falls inside your boundaries.    really think about this.   dig deep.

in the example you gave... you want her to spend the night at the family house, but she arrives late, and doesn't interact with your daughter.     your daughter doesn't get to see the dog, even though you promised she would.  how does this reflect or impact on your values?    how could you build a boundary around this that is healthy and fair to everyone?     

let's play with the idea that you text your wife... "I think it's important that D12 spend some time with dog tonight, can you be here by 6PM so that happens?   if not I am going to take D12 to the park for a walk (or whatever would help soothe D12)".

Kick that around some.     I'm not suggesting you do this.  I am suggesting you think about different approaches.

'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you for explaining that.  The boundaries part has always been difficult and though never really acted on it I sort of thought 'If you do this and cross this boundary' then 'Here are the consequences'.  I see I was wrong in that mindset.

Like I said before, I am a fixer and it's a downfall for me.  I feel like I keep tolerating this behavior and I am being played as a fool.  Though I never expressed to her that if she moved, I am getting a divorce, which I know is wrong and is an ultimatum.

Once of the things I did tell her was that I know everything is unsteady but to just hold onto me.  I feel like if I say the wrong thing I am going to push her away further.  I wish there was some sort of instruction manual with all of this.

She mentioned the 30 days.  If she continues to live there afterwards and tells me she just needs another month, how do I react to that?  Honestly I don't know where she is getting all this money from and I have not brought it up.  I also have to take what I learn from you and from this site and be able to remember it and use it and not just react to any more "bad surprises" which I call them.

Thank you for the example, it's things like that, that clarify this communication for me.  I have read through some of the lessons but I find it hard to put it into the context of my situation.

[babyducks]

Like I said before, I am a fixer and it's a downfall for me.  I feel like I keep tolerating this behavior and I am being played as a fool. 

I am a fixer too.   and when my partner pushed on my boundaries I 'fixed' them by giving up on them.    Not very smart on my part.    as this plays out for you think about your boundaries and tolerating behavior.    about where you can establish boundaries that protect you and your daughter.   remember boundaries are for you... they are for keeping you out of 'surprise behavior'.

She mentioned the 30 days.  If she continues to live there afterwards and tells me she just needs another month, how do I react to that? 

it depends on what you want and what you feel is best for you in 30 days.    take this one day at a time.   give yourself time to settle in here and work to change things from your end.

you mentioned that there is a fear of your wife going to a bar this weekend and getting drunk.    is this a place to establish a boundary?    if she starts to drink will you want her to be exposed to her D12.     think about expressing these boundaries using "I" statements.    I think... I feel... I believe... I need to ... I will be doing...

make sense?

[Brooklyn1974]

Yes that makes complete sense.  That is a huge boundary for me.  I know my daughter will be with me the whole weekend so if my wife goes out and does those things my daughter and me won't know about it until afterwards.  I will not have my daughter around that drinking again, it was beyond awful.  The last time she got drunk she was rushed to the hospital and had a BAC of .27

My daughter is so concerned about her mother that when my wife was going to AA meetings, my daughter would go with.  I told my wife that I did not think that was a good idea but the group welcomed her.  My daughter would usually play on her phone while the meeting was going on.  My daughter's anxiety is so great that if my wife went upstairs, my daughter would follow.  So I can understand my wife being overwhelmed.  Even when we first started dating she would always say she needs her space and to let her come to me.  When she needed space it usually meant her getting a lot of sleep.  She is on anti-depressants and has been for many years.

As for her staying longer than the 30 days in her apartment, my daughter would be absolutely devastated.  I guess I need to refrain from thinking that far ahead, it doesn't do any good.  All I know is she told me she doesn't want a divorce and told our daughter if a divorce happens, dad will be the one to start it.

When she saw the psychologist 5 years ago and quit, the psychologist told me that she needs years of therapy and that if I were to leave her as in a divorce that she can almost guarantee that she would commit suicide.

[babyducks]

Hi Brooklyn1974,

My daughter is so concerned about her mother that when my wife was going to AA meetings, my daughter would go with.  I told my wife that I did not think that was a good idea but the group welcomed her. 

this sounds like a boundary issue again Brooklyn.    boundaries help us understand where our "stuff"  starts and stops.   what belongs to us,  what is our responsibility to take care of and what is appropriate sharing.     from what you describe it sounds like you daughter has been exposed to a lot of situations where she was expected to act like an adult.   that has to have been hard for your daughter.

When she saw the psychologist 5 years ago and quit, the psychologist told me that she needs years of therapy and that if I were to leave her as in a divorce that she can almost guarantee that she would commit suicide.

wow.    that's quite the unusual thing to say.    people with BPD do usually need years of therapy to see any improvement.    its quite the commitment, not unlike the commitment to find and stay on a strict diet.     

how are things going today?

ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

Yes my daughter has.  She even told my wife that 'She feels like she's the adult because mom, you make bad decisions'.  It truly breaks my heart that my daughter is missing out on part of her childhood because of this.  My wife has yet to stay overnight in her apartment and has stayed here the past two days.  I am not asking if she's staying over at the house or her apt.  She went to a friend's house today and brought back a chest that I guess she's taking to the apt.  It's these confusing messages that I am getting and it's not helping with my anxiety.

I want her here but why continue to bring stuff to the apt. but Is staying at the house?  I am still reading up on the lessons and yesterday your advice came in perfectly.  

Last night my daughter was extremely upset, my wife got a tattoo.  My wife was trying to tell her it's her body and she should respect that.  My daughter replied back, it's not the tattoo.  It's everything.  You are treating me horribly.  My wife then tried to say, well it's only on my finger and I can cover it up (it's a cross on her ring finger, the finger that she used to wear her wedding band).  She now has her wedding band on a bracelet she is wearing.  I have no clue what that means.  Anyway instead of reacting to the action of what she did, I reacted to the emotion on why she did it.  Told her 'I understand what you are going through, but I think our daughter is trying to process way too much right now'.  If I would have reacted different then I know my wife would have had a meltdown.  

She said the tattoo is a reminder for her to not to drink.  She then started crying and told my daughter the reason why she wanted me to bring the dog over the other night.  My wife had a dog that passed away last year, he was old but was sick.  When he started to get sick, that's when her drinking started to kick in bad.  When he passed she was even entertaining the idea of getting him to a taxidermy.  I know, it's insane.  

We have three dogs, I have a german shepherd, chihuahua and a Shiba Inu.  My german shepherd I talked to her about way before getting and had others before I met her.  The last two dogs, she got without telling me.  She was saying 'I got these two dogs for our daughter and don't have one of my own'.  My daughter doesn't want any of the dogs to stay there, my daughter is using her animals to help her cope.  I tried to explain to my wife that these dogs don't care who got them, that they love us all.  Honestly I could see my wife probably trying to get another dog for her apt.  

She's not well.  To me this is not normal behavior.  As for me, I am hanging in there.  I don't know what the next day is going to bring.  I am realizing that unless she gets help then no matter what I do, at some point she is going to leave and in the meantime continue this sort of behavior.  Thank you for everything you have done for me, you are truly a blessing.

[babyducks]

Hi Brooklyn1974,

It sounds like your wife is uncertain about what she wants and how to go about getting it.    Which is fairly normal for people with BPD.

people with the traits of this illness see their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions.   and they believe that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change.

that's hard to understand for us who don't process life this way.

I would encourage you to do what you can today to take care of yourself and your daughter.     chasing after your wife or engaging in the dysfunction with her adds to that sense your wife has that other events or people have to change for her to feel better.   it sort of pours gas on the fire if you understand what I mean.

'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you for the reply.  I do have a question that's probably best for you to answer than the counselor.  I co-signed for her car and in a week I know the payment will be due.  She is spending money again and good chance she won't have the money for the payment or some how it will come onto me to pay it.  There is only like 5 or 6 payments left.  If she comes to me about making the payment, what should I do?  I don't want her coming to me anytime she needs money nor do I want to feel like it's ok to use me.  And if I should not pay it, what's the best way to approach that to her? 

[babyducks]

 She is spending money again and good chance she won't have the money for the payment or some how it will come onto me to pay it.  

hi Brooklyn1974,

somehow it will come to you to pay it?    hmmmm.    you mentioned upstream that you are a fixer.    Do you want to fix this problem for her?    Do you want to protect her from the natural consequences of her behavior?   If you fix this for her what is the lesson or message you are sending?   are you reinforcing the idea that she can't or shouldn't be responsible for her own decisions?

I would suggest that first you determine if she did or didn't pay the bill by asking her in a non judgmental way.   ask her what her plans on for handling the car payment.    

You:   "I remember that the car payment was due on such and such date.    Have you taken care of that?   (or what is your plan to take care of that?)
Her:  "oh don't worry about it, it will be fine"
You:   "I'm concerned because I am a cosigner on the loan and I take that seriously.   What is your thinking about paying for the car?"

that's just a rough example.    you would need to put it in your own words.  show a willingness to help her troubleshoot the problem but don't rush to fix the problem.

what do you think?

'ducks  

[Brooklyn1974]

I usually reminder her every month and the one time she did lie and told me she paid it when she didn't.  I don't want to pay it but if she doesn't it will hit my credit score.  If I tell her I won't pay it, would that be another justification in her mind that I am this awful person that doesn't care about her?

She hasn't been to her apartment since Wednesday.  I don't ask why and I don't ask if she's going to be staying over there.  I have my first counselor appt. in 2 hours.  She hasn't talked about our future and I have not brought it up, I figure it's best to get the counseling sessions in first.  We haven't been arguing but so many things are racing through my head.  I wish I could just get my anxiety down.

Saturday we spent time at my parents, they had a cookout.  She went with my daughter to get her haircut, I then got a phone call from her stating my daughter did not want to get out of the car because her hair was wet from swimming earlier.  My wife actually went into the store without her, so I quickly called my daughter and during the time my wife got back to the car (I told her to never leave her in the car by herself) my daughter told me there was a message on her new phone that was in her car and it was from her ex-bf.  She said it looked like a funny picture but had bad words on it.  She said she got scared and deleted it.  When my wife got back on the phone I told her what our daughter told me, my wife told me that she was lying.  Mind you, my daughter described the picture and has never lied to me.  My wife then actually called her step-mom (who along with my wife's dad is close to my wife's ex-bf) and put it on speaker.  My wife asked her do you think my ex-bf would send this?  Like she's trying to create doubt in my daughter's mind.  It's sickening.  I told my daughter I believe you completely and what your mother has done is wrong.  My daughter asked to see her new phone yesterday which she showed her but all messages were deleted.  

It's this drama that has me twisted in a pretzel.  I just hope this counselor can help.  You have helped a great deal so far.  Her car payment is due next week so the day before I am going to remind her.  

[Brooklyn1974]

An hour before my counseling sessions, which she knew I had she calls me and tells me she's going to foster a dog at her apartment and that she needs more space and wants a break in the marriage.  Should have expected this.  I'm just being used.  I did go to the counseling session. 

And my daughter told me 'Mom said she will be staying at the house tonight'.  WTH?  Why do these BPDs play such games?  It's not that we are just bf/gf, we have been married for almost 16 years.

[Brooklyn1974]

Hope you can read and give a little more advice babyducks.

On the phone before my counseling she told me we need a break and a lot of space from me.  Raging on me saying 'This week was good and you were nice but I can't trust this will continue'.  I wanted to defend myself but I refrained, I knew that would just get her upset.  All I told her was that I can only promise things will be better from now on in regards to my reactions.  I figured the counselor needs to address those issues with her. 

She stayed at the house last night, folded laundry, helped clean my daughter's room, then texted me just now saying she was going to the store for food.

Her actions are not equating to what she told me yesterday.  The counselor was I think overloaded since I condensed 16 years of this into an hour.  She didn't give me much advice except for breathing techniques to lower my anxiety.  She told me she can't give advice just yet until she talks to my wife on Thursday.  She told me it's not hopeless but much work needs to be done.  I go in next Monday and then set up a plan to bring my daughter in. 

I'm emotionally exhausted.  I'm tired.  Tired in a sense that it's hard to be put into words.  Not just this situation but from what me and my daughter have been through the past 10 years.  I can easily see how this sort of thing can put a person into a depression.

[babyducks]

Hi again Brooklyn1974,

I am going to borrow this from schwing since he wrote it so beautifully.

For me, a good way to look at the behaviors of people with BPD (pwBPD) is that their feelings define their reality.  So when they are feeling attached to you, they truly idealize you.  But when they devalue you, they also truly hate you.  And at any time, their most immediate feelings will override any sense of what might have been true for them even minutes ago.

In the strictest sense of the word it's not a game.    It's not a conscious well thought out strategy to get something or obtain a result.    it's more an immediate reaction to whatever the intense emotion of the moment is.  and then very rapidly the emotion changes to something else.

make any sense?

so what to do with that.    in a very general simple way if you chase their emotional or mood swings you end up with whip lash.   her emotions are on a roller coaster of up and down.    if you get on that roller coaster with her... well you know... you end up anxious and confused.

the place to start is to center your own emotions.   that's usually hard for us to do.   we become so reactive to our spouse/partner... trying to figure what is going on and what is all means.    we are almost hyper sensitive.

are you doing the breathing exercises?  and do they help at all?   

what is said here a lot is we need to become the emotional leader in the relationship,   the one who is working to generate stability and calm, who isn't adding to the tension and anxiety.    that's a lot to take on and we can only do it if we are in a strong place ourselves.

what do you think of this link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62266.0

 

[Brooklyn1974]

Thank you for replying and for the link.  It's very insightful and helps me with all of this.  I am doing the exercises.  I have to learn to not chase her emotional swings.  As I was writing this she called and was so sweet to me.  I have to remember to let the counselor do her job.   

[Brooklyn1974]

Figured that last night would not go well.  Our daughter is still very upset and has for the past week told me she did not want mom at her ballet recital this Saturday and wanted her Aunt.  My daughter told her again last night and she asked why.  My daughter told her because of everything going on and that she's tired of asking mom if she is staying the night at the house.  That either stay at the house all the time (move back) or stay at the apartment.  My wife told her if she didn't want her there at the dance then she won't go.  I told my wife why do you think she is saying this?  Her reply: "It's been like this, she just wants to one-up on me".  I was floored.  I told my wife to think a little deeper with this.  She refuses to.

She accused me of looking at her laptop when she went out for a half hour which I didn't.  She told me Monday she was getting internet at her place today and while we were talking last night a commercial for it came on TV.  I asked her if she was still getting it and she said yes.  I also found a change of address notice in my mail yesterday.  I told her 'So this is a long term thing' and her reply is 'I'm taking it day to day'.  She then started saying how she was cooped up in this house for 3 months due to having to work at home and she hasn't had time to see anyone else.

I mentioned to her that I miss going out and doing things with you and her reply was 'You never did want to'.  This was not true because I would often ask her and always got a no.  Heck even the last two vacations my wife, daughter and my wife's mom went to ocean city, md. without me because my wife was concerned about leaving 3 dogs in a kennel.  I thought I was doing something good by watching them and I told her how awful it was being at home those days without them and not enjoying the beach.

I told her it just seems like she just wants to justify that I am this awful person. That I really don't want to start all over again with someone new.  She jumped in about that saying 'I never said about finding anyone new'.  As typical BPD I'm the one to blame and it seems like she just shrugs my daughter's feelings off.  Is it because she can't process them?  I feel like she is nicer to her friends than to us.  Do I just tell her not to bother coming over to the house tonight?

[babyducks]

  I told my wife why do you think she is saying this?  Her reply: "It's been like this, she just wants to one-up on me".  I was floored.  I told my wife to think a little deeper with this.  She refuses to.

this is understandable.   I am NOT saying it's right/correct.  I am saying it's understandable.   pwBPD have not developed mature emotional skills.  the way they process life/events is not the same way you would.

 
  I told her 'So this is a long term thing' and her reply is 'I'm taking it day to day'. 

just because she is taking it day to day doesn't mean you should chase her looking for an answer or certainty.    how do you feel about taking some space and time to let the relationship cool off.   would that be helpful to you?

 
I mentioned to her that I miss going out and doing things with you and her reply was 'You never did want to'.  This was not true because I would often ask her and always got a no. 

as mentioned upstream ...pwBPD reflect the emotion of the moment and feel that emotion was caused by someone else.   she feels like she has been stuck in the house for three months...she feels like she never got to go out... and that has to be caused externally.    for pwBPD feelings = facts.   


 

I told her it just seems like she just wants to justify that I am this awful person.

pwBPD offload their negative feelings of shame/blame/inadequacy on the people nearest them.   it's a symptom of the illness.

 

  Do I just tell her not to bother coming over to the house tonight?

what would be best for you and your daughter?

[Brooklyn1974]

I know they have a low emotional IQ but even when facing your own daughter, the daughter she almost lost her life over (the hospital messed up and she was internally bleeding for hours and lost 80% of her blood) you would think something has to snap inside of them to realize what is causing this.  It's so frustrating that she acts so cold about this.  

Part of me feels that if she's gone and there is no contact, her impulsiveness will erupt and either do something very stupid or even cheat.  She hides it so well that I probably wouldn't even know if she did.  She mentioned to me last night 'You tell me I'm impulsive' and yes I did get the surgery and the tattoo and move out but then acted like that's the only thing she did.  I didn't push it.  I could have said well the cheating, the payday loans (at 700% interest), the drinking at work, etc..  I figured let the counselor deal with that one.  Part of me also feels what it would be like to actually be with a woman that is supportive, wants to work as a team and actually shows me affection.  Sex can come easily to her but affection?  Forget it.  It's been years since she came up to me and give me a hug.  I've had women in the past come up to me and show interest but I always told them I was married.  I then think I wouldn't even go this route because the situation is so messed up as it is and my daughter is my number one priority.

So if their feelings are facts in their head, how do you get them to even think about the possibility that these facts might not be true?  I know the counselor has to work on her but only an hour a week doesn't give her much time and I see her everyday.  

I told her and have told her in the past that I do not give second chances.  That once it's over, it's done.  If any cheating goes on, I am also done.  I will also not tolerate her drinking again around my daughter.  

My daughter just texted me and said she's staying over night again.  My daughter wants her there but when they are there they don't talk.  My wife doesn't even try.  For example last night she spent most of the night on her laptop working.  When my daughter brought up that she didn't want her to go to recital and it started to bring up the whole situation, she was getting upset.  Guess it was too much for her brain to think through.  What I did come to an answer on is that I will not pay any of her bills.  I know she will use this on me by saying it's my way of her coming back to the house but it's not.  I have a house, 3 dogs and a daughter I need to support.  It upsets me so much that she can just take off and leave us like that.

[babyducks]

you would think something has to snap inside of them to realize what is causing this.  It's so frustrating that she acts so cold about this.  

it does seem like there should be some recognition of what is going on and why. all of us struggled with that frustration.   still it really does appear that the way a pwBPD brain is wired is different.   and they connect things differently. 

So if their feelings are facts in their head, how do you get them to even think about the possibility that these facts might not be true?  I know the counselor has to work on her but only an hour a week doesn't give her much time and I see her everyday.  

this is a marathon not a sprint.    and it's complicated.   which you probably already knew.

it's a combination of boundaries, validation and communication tools.   

boundaries around unacceptable behavior and dysregulations.

validation to lower emotional stress.

communication tools to open avenues for safe discussions.

I was always surprised at how much effort and how many words I had to use to communicate with my partner (now Ex).   it wasn't very comfortable for either of us.

have you ever heard of validation?

'ducks

[Brooklyn1974]

When I used validation it seemed to work in regards to her not getting so upset.  Though these past 3 months I was miserable because of the lockdown, my work, etc.. and I didn't use it as much as I should. 

When I start off with 'I understand that you are upset", etc.. that helps but in my mind I just want to scream and defend my point of view, though that doesn't get me anywhere.

Does a BPD actually know what true, deep, unconditional love is?  Or is it just a fleeting moment that comes and goes.  Do they ever look back on the past and relive those feelings?

[babyducks]

Does a BPD actually know what true, deep, unconditional love is?  Or is it just a fleeting moment that comes and goes.  Do they ever look back on the past and relive those feelings?

No two people define love the same way.    I bet if you and I compared how we think of love it would be different.   It would certainly be different in how we express it.

in my opinion pwBPD do love,  and they do want a connection.     sadly they struggle to express it and feel comfortable with it.   it is a mental illness after all.

[Harri]

This thread reached the max post limit and has been split and locked.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345235.msg13114774#msg13114774

Thank you