Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 28, 2024, 07:38:24 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
204
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The message blew our children’s world into a million pieces Part 4  (Read 757 times)
Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« on: June 18, 2020, 10:40:26 AM »

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345036.0

Clarification on professionals being utilised at the moment:

Mediator - Neutral, works for both of us to come up with a friendly deal - Seen him 3x2hrs (Oct17 / Nov17 / Nov19) - 2hr sessions £500. My W sends me emails with him CC'd keeping him up on the process... not sure the guy cares and doesn't charge for the time, he gets paid for mediation not giving advice over email... stayed neutral and gave no advice to her mails.

Co-Parenting & Family Therapist Specialist - mutually agreed to go - she focused on getting us apart, to then start work on co-parenting - 2x2hr sessions £125 an hour

Lawyer - Working for W - No idea on costs - No direct contact with her, advising in the background.

My W uses professionals or the threat of professionals at a stick to beat me with as she knows it erodes funds and knows that I am triggered by paying professionals for things that we can do ourselves... I change the oil and brakes on the car. She REGULARLY threatens to "hand it all over to her lawyers" and I regularly say "Okay, you do what you think you need to do". I figure that if she does, I will have a "reasonable amount of time" with which to source my own adviser. Currently a lot fo things are happening over email, the delays are becoming longer and longer as I take more and more time to consider language carefully and make sure I am as untriggered as possible.  

Time is on who's side? Well I am pretty comfortable, I have a great relationship with the kids, they love being with me and I am great at conflict resolution with them. I have fully documented the last 2 years and to a less extend the last 4 years inc parenting time, meals prepared, time in/out the home for both of us. I have agreement of 50/50 parenting and secured support from my employer to facilitate that. I am living in the 5 bed substantial family home WHICH THE CHILDREN LOVE, she is renting a small 3 bed house (which she has yet to take up tenancy of). I am not in a relationship with anyone else and thus have no pressing time agenda to get this done... she is, and likely does (probably from him). IF, that pressure becomes too great (emotionally and relationshiply (new word I just made up) then they will likely get together... this changes the financial element (and maybe how the children feel about her) dynamic of any deal. ALSO, time = time for her to ruminate = guilt and shame is an acid (much like anger... possibly because that's what it turns into). It is rotting her from the insides and she wants this to be done so she can drift off into a guilt and shame free existence. I don't have such feelings, and I've done a pretty good audit. So, I am not sure that time isn't on my side as long as I can give her a framework where she can feel like she gets the comfort of knowing she has fair access to the kids and I will not try and withhold that, and access to a finances until a deal is done... and that I will not attempt to stonewall that process.

I see this process as guiding  a ball downhill, occasionally it requires a pat on one side to say "noo, not that way". Trying to stop the ball didn't work... if the ball decides to go back up the hill, that's a different ball game with a whole set of different road humps... but not worth considering. To quote (roughly) FF from several months ago, I somewhat believe that she will accidentally get a divorce she doesn't actually want.

Enabler
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 12:54:00 PM by Cat Familiar » Logged

Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2020, 10:44:30 AM »

Big fan of Jujitsu parenting skills and use them all the time on the kids. Works wonderfully. Is she pushing for mediation? Not sure.

Logged

Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2020, 10:58:15 AM »

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but you already are out of your depth, Enabler. You’ve got a lot of worldly skills, but divorce is an entirely new game and there’s lots of nuance that you have no experience with nor understanding about.

I agree. It’s pointless and expensive to litigate minor details.

But if your wife has already engaged the services of a solicitor, you could be at a serious disadvantage already.

Best to hire a lawyer now, so you won’t be looking for one on an emergency basis. And if you find someone you feel comfortable working with, you can limit the billable time by choice and definition of what you are willing to do and what oversight you desire.

You really have no idea of what curveballs can be directed at your head in a contentious divorce, which is likely what you’ll have.

I tried to do a collaborative divorce through legal aid with my ex. Unbeknownst to me, he hired the meanest pittbull attorney in town and sued me for support, physical injury he sustained working on the property, claimed a truck I bought entirely with funds received from an inheritance after our split was his, claimed entitlement to proceeds from an inheritance I used to buy land was equally his, in contradiction to State Law.

Many of these false claims would have been sorted out easily in court. But it sent me on multiple document searches to validate the provenance.

In addition, there were other milder forms of harassment. Once I got an attorney involved, he spoke to my ex’s attorney and much of that behavior ceased.

You are predicating your path on the supposition that your wife will be somewhat reasonable. That is not necessarily a valid assumption with a pwBPD once things began to heat up in a divorce battle. And they will—hopefully not in as extreme a manner as I experienced.



Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2020, 12:28:09 PM »

Enabler - I jumped in because I think you're in over your head, based on my direct experience with divorce.  Please don't take that as an insult, you just don't have experience litigating divorce in your jurisdiction (nor do I, nor does anyone else on this board).  You are in waaaaaaay over your head if your wife has an attorney advising her behind the scenes and you don't. 

It's not about what would be "rubber stamped" by a court.  It's about knowing how a court would rule in case it had to go to trial.  That sets your basic rights.  Once you understand your rights, then you can negotiate because you understand the minimum you should be seeking and you're confident to not settle for any less.

We settled everything in one mediation session.  We were able to do so because we each had a professional to advise us on what is reasonable in the court's eyes and what is not.  The best thing about having lawyers involved in my case, is my ex's lawyer is the one who keeps her in check.  Not my problem anymore to debate with her.  We have written rules in place.  If there is an issue my lawyer calls her lawyer and her lawyer explains to her that she cannot behave in this manner.  It's expensive, but it's been worth every penny for the peace I now have.  I don't have to debate with anyone.  I tell my lawyer what happened, the lawyers argue, then typically I hear nothing more and my ex behaves better.

What I see in your situation is the continued push/pull dynamic of the PD relationship.  Lots of back and forth and zero resolution.  If you want to continue that dynamic you are free to do that.  If you want resolution, and a fresh start for yourself and the kids, then a lawyer is the quickest route to that.  During my divorce, we bounced back and forth between her trying to get restraining orders based on false accusations and her wanting to stop the divorce and reconcile.  Lord knows how long that would have lasted without the courts involved.  Once you file for divorce and it's in the system, the court sets dates and will push it along.  That eliminates the push/pull and forces the resolution.

That said, I do think it's wise to be on these forums asking for advice on what to include in your settlement agreements.  The people here know what it's like to co (or parallel) parent with a PD.  I found that courts and therapists really don't understand the nuances of PD relationships, so there is definite value in the opinions on these forums.  My quick $.02 on that - I think you're on the right track to eliminate Right of First Refusal in your agreement.  I don't have it in mine, and all I've read on forums is that it creates headaches when the PD can step in and block any daycare or babysitting situation they want.





Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
GaGrl
Ambassador
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 5722



« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2020, 12:58:49 PM »

Bottom line...someone is going to have to make the point to your wife that "your parenting time is yours, and my parenting time is mine. Now let's go from there."

In addition to guilt and shame, which is at work here -- I think it is very important to your wife as to how she "presents" to her church colleagues, friends, community - - "face" is very important to her. A mediated settlement to her advantage (loosey-goosey and undefined as to the girls' availability to her) lets her present to everyone that this is a friendly divorce, co-parenting in the best way, "isn't it just wonderful that we can do this so well?" And then she has unfettered access to the girls (and to you and your house), can ask/expect you to take evenings on her time when she wants to be out with OM, and nothing really changes for her at all except she moves into a new house.

Magical thinking.

Seems to me the biggest question right now is WHO will tell her that her thinking is magical (in more concrete terms)?

Her lawyer won't.

The mediator probably won't -- unless you put forward a parenting plan as a starting point.

You don't want to, because...why?

Next steps?
Logged


"...what's past is prologue; what to come,
In yours and my discharge."
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2020, 02:44:21 PM »

Bottom line...someone is going to have to make the point to your wife that "your parenting time is yours, and my parenting time is mine. Now let's go from there."

You don't want to, because...why?

Excellent point here.  I will add that I discovered it ultimately had to be me that told her.  My ex constantly tries to be ever present in our kids' lives, and never ceases her attempts to control them (and me).  Many times I've heard my kids say "Mom said I have to practice xyz while I'm at your house" or "Mom says we need to do (insert whatever)".  I've made it clear to the kids that Mom does not make the rules at Dad's house, and we get to decide what we do.  I've also had to tell my ex, in front of the kids, to please stop telling them what they should be doing during my parenting time, when she is reminding them of their "duties" at our exchanges.  This infuriates her, but it's a boundary I will continue to enforce.  Enforcing this doesn't have anything to do with changing my ex, as I know she won't stop.  I hold this boundary so my kids can develop the ability to think for themselves and understand nobody should control them.  If I give in, then nothing has really changed and we are still under her thumb.

Lawyers, therapists, mediators, etc...they won't help you solve that part of it.  I've been advocating for a lawyer here, but in reality they are a tool you utilize for their knowledge of law and ability to advocate for you.  They are a very powerful tool, but they can't fix every little thing.  They don't see all the behind the scenes manipulation and attempts at control.  In my case my ex is very crafty about keeping this all private, sadly I'm the only one who really sees it so it is on me to check things back into place.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2020, 02:59:42 PM »

Forgot to add:  I thought of something else that is very useful in my parenting plan.  We agreed on specific schools the kids would attend through high school.  My ex has a history of idealizing things, then once the smallest slight happens she blows everything up and starts over elsewhere.  We were on our third school district when we divorced, that is over the course of four years of having kids in elementary school.  She destroyed the relationships with the first two.  She is currently happy with it and wanted it in the parenting plan, I was very happy to include it because I know at some point she'll get mad and try to change everything.  If it wasn't in the agreement, she could just move elsewhere and enroll them there, now she's not allowed to unless I agree.

It doesn't have to be school related - but I'd advise you to think about anything that is currently in place that you don't want to change.  If you can, get her to agree to it in writing.  The school thing gives me a lot of peace of mind.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
Fian
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 627


« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2020, 03:36:58 PM »

Count me as one who thinks you should involve a lawyer ASAP.  You seem to think that everything will be status quo until you agree to a plan.  What would you do if you arrive home and you find that she moved the kids out?  And her lawyer tells you it is because of obscure rule x that kicked in when you said y during a communication?  Sure, you may be able to reverse it, but in the mean time, no kids, and it might last weeks/months before you can see them again.
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2020, 03:56:02 PM »

Count me as one who thinks you should involve a lawyer ASAP.  

Ditto

Maybe not "involved" but hired and on your side ready to do anything.  Note, I wouldn't tell her yet that you have hired one.

Best,

FF
Logged

Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2020, 04:09:37 PM »

I don’t mean to pile on you, Enabler, but rather I want to emphasize the vulnerable position you are in without legal representation.

Every lawyer, when taking their first bar review prep course, has heard the following adage: “The man who represents himself has a fool for a client.”

This was demonstrated to me personally when I received a subpoena for a deposition regarding a neighbor’s mischief with a “borrowed” tractor. I was superficially involved in the litigation because this neighbor had used said tractor on our property in one of the jobs he performed with it. It left our property intact and the troubles occurred elsewhere.

I was surprised when my husband, who was planning to accompany me to the deposition, and is an excellent attorney, insisted that I hire an experienced litigator to serve as my representation.

Reading the complaint, he foresaw a loophole where I could be pulled into the litigation. I found an excellent attorney and since then, we’ve used his wife’s services for our estate planning. We walked through potential landmines and I learned how to respond in a deposition by giving the least amount of information possible.

Fortunately it all went smoothly and my lawyer only had to object to one question.

What seems obvious and apparent in the regular world is not necessarily representative of what goes on in the legal world.

I wouldn’t be surprised if that phrase that was included about getting your kids agreement wasn’t a “poison pill” suggested by your wife’s solicitor to be able to override your allotted custody time.

Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2020, 04:28:12 PM »

And to bring up issues from the past—your wife has claimed you were “controlling” and she harbored unsafe feelings around you. However she has been fine letting you be in charge of the girls so she can have her alone time with the OM.

You must take into consideration the idea that she’s told her side of the story to friends and family and this might come up as an issue during divorce proceedings.

When feelings equal facts, you have no idea what a pwBPD can utilize in a courtroom when they suspect that they might not get exactly what they think they deserve.


Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8817


« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2020, 04:28:27 PM »

 Bullet: completed (click to insert in post) Professional advise.

You have long envisioned this divorce this as a chess match with a far inferior opponent (your wife) whom you feel you will outwit.

      I somewhat believe that she will accidentally get a divorce she doesn't actually want.~ Enabler

She has put you down for years, disrespected you. That was horrible. Vindication is important to you (as it would be to anyone). Your tactic is mostly passive resistance... wait her out, confuse her, watch her struggle.

But righteousness in a divorce is a fools game. Please don't underestimate how an opposing lawyer can say "enough with the passive resistance" and flip the status quo in a minute... and have her reversing course on the negotiations.

You are not competing with your wife on this... it's the court system you are in a chess match with.

Get a mature collaborative attorney to negotiate a settlement with her attorney and be done with it. Extract yourself from this game of wits, and move to a game of being practical, focusing on the macro issues, compromise on the micro-issues to get it done.

She is serving you one of the best deals I've seen since I've been on these boards. 50/50% and with her moving out. Get this deal signed before it goes away. There are a lot of people in the world who will tell her she can get a better deal and the more time that passes, the more likely she will hear them.

A good lawyer (you will need to do some footwork to find one) will come up with ideas to close the deal. For example, maybe you agree to a Wednesday dinner for 10 months as a transition period and trade that for phone call limitations.

Do the deal... don't play taekwondo.
Logged

 
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2020, 04:49:14 PM »

What would you do if you arrive home and you find that she moved the kids out?

This right here is why I filed and put it in full view of the courts.  My lawyer had explained to me that while we're married my wife could do anything and it was legal.  Move somewhere with the kids, change schools/doctors/hire therapists, take out a bunch of debt, donate all my possessions, you name it.  My ex had been doing some mind-boggling things behind my back in the months prior like removing my name from joint bank accounts, opening her own, moving money around, demanding I give her POA over my personal accounts, trying to hire therapists for the kids without my knowledge, etc.  I discovered it only because I started receiving alerts from our banks, and received phone calls from therapists because they wanted to speak with both parents (thank goodness!)  My lawyer explained that once I filed, that would place a temporary injunction on everything.  Neither of us would be allowed to make any changes to our situation without justifying it to the court.  My ex had put so much fear into me that I felt paralyzed to make that decision, but deep down I knew I had to put a stop to it all.  It ended up being the best decision I've ever made, her behavior ceased immediately once other people had eyes on the situation.

I'm not saying you have to put your foot down hard like I did, but it isn't going to hurt anything to have a lawyer standing behind you to give advice.

I hope you know I'm not trying to pile on you here either.  It's just that I'm fresh out of that situation and I keenly remember how much better life got once I felt protected by my attorney.  I want you and your kids to achieve the best possible outcome.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2020, 08:09:05 AM »

What would you do if you arrive home and you find that she moved the kids out? 

I was tremendously fearful of this several years back. I was bad cop so my relationship with the kids wasn't overly balanced. PA would have been a sinch and I became INCREDIBLY paranoid of an unsupported temporary restraining order. Could this still happen? Yes of course she could try, and yes I would have to wait out potentially a long period of time to regain access to the kids... HOWEVER... what I know without any shadow of a doubt, is that the children would create merry hell if she tried that, and she knows this. D11 is already refusing to go to the new house and W is regularly making comments like "Well I don't even know whether or not D11 is even coming", and she hasn't bought her a bed for the new house yet as a consequence. So, I know this is a specific example, but I have no fear about that happening as if it did, it would backfire tremendously for her.

True or not (likely not) I'd imagine this is her perception, courts are where details, facts, evidence is required... dare I say it the truth is told... people put hands on Bibles and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. This is where things are told, reality happens and fantasies are destroyed. The last thing she wants is for the hood to be lifted on this, and for people to find out the truth. Defoggings point about Church people and friends is very true.

Excerpt
Your tactic is mostly passive resistance... wait her out, confuse her, watch her struggle.

Or is my tactic perseverance... stand still, take fire, when she's exhausted and taking a nap walk forward on MY path (build relationship with kids, raise kids, secure financial future, nail down mental health), provide her with honest unpolished information (she actually needs as part of her choices, and in many instances requested), stand back and allow her to deal with the natural consequences of her choices.

Her - finances finances finances... use savings to rent house... spend money money money
Me - That money is saved for paying off mortgage which is due in Nov
Her -  What does that mean, what do we have to do about that, surely it doesn't involve all the money, that's my security! (Freak out)
Me - I filled out a form in Feb, I asked you to review that form and understand what I wrote and sign it, you did that and I sent it off.
Her - I don't understand what our options are
Me - I suggest you call the lender as you will not trust anything I tell you.
Her - Hours and hours on the phone to lender, lots of frustration

She now believes that 50/50 parenting is an answer to prayer... yes... my prayers. This has been agreed on email (from her), we have to work on the details and that may well happen in practice. As many of you have pointed out before my W may gift me some more time with kids, because it suits... I might just take that time.

Perseverance has taken me from a terrible place to a good place, it's hard (from my perspective) to say that it hasn't worked. One thing I know is that any sniff of aggression (including OVERT use of lawyers) will likely just be fuel on the fire.

Enabler 
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2020, 09:05:56 AM »


Can you walk us through your thinking that has ended up with you not having a lawyer at least retained and ready?

All those other details about D11 not wanting/wanting...are good for you, but ...it's apples and oranges to the legal process.

Basically...Dude...finish this.  Get it signed. 

Best,

FF
Logged

Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2020, 10:35:59 AM »

I think people started telling me to finish this a year ago... where would I be if I finished it then?

Disney dad with a tea midweek vs 50/50 parenting
Out of my home and zero chance of retaining it vs in my home and a possibility of retaining it

Years back we discussed opening the cage door... I did that however what I failed to do was push her out or actively encourage her out, i just said "the door is open". It's taken longer this way for sure.

There's a couple of things I'm aware of... there's a few things that can happen quickly but most things happen VERRRRRY slowly in the legal world. As touched upon in my previous post, RO's can happen quickly (that's a risk), information can be requested quickly, but no one can force anyone to provide it quickly... (and by means of information I am not talking about financial disclosures which I have provide with great haste only to not be met with the same courtesy)... I mean questions or demands can be asked and made quickly, but there is no pressure to respond quickly giving me time to consider and to consult wise counsel. Yes legal services provide wisdom and experience through a process (we have that in the form of a mediator), but lawyers also act as an emotional buffer and speed buffer. They naturally slow things down for the non-aggressor party. I can do that myself. My T has given me the number of a firm he was speaking to, who he believed specialised in dealing with such cases. At the moment I feel I have relatively clear thinking re how to proceed in the short/medium term, I am hesitant to upset that balance with a lawyer who may have different motivations.

Does that make any sense to anyone?

Enabler
Logged

defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2020, 10:45:09 AM »

One thing I know is that any sniff of aggression (including OVERT use of lawyers) will likely just be fuel on the fire.

I believe that is fear talking.  Do you see the ridiculous double standard that your wife has a lawyer but somehow you feel you're not allowed one?  You have the right to equal treatment.

Yep, it will be fuel on the fire.  Big time.  It was for me.  The result?  All kinds of accusations that never went anywhere.  Then my ex had a mental health episode and I was given custody of the kids until she got clearance from a T that she's not a threat to them or herself.  She dug herself a big hole, and I could show the courts it was me that stood up and took care of the kids when they needed a stable parent.  From this point forward, her lawyer avoided going to trial like it was the plague.

It doesn't matter if your wife explodes and gets angry, because a lawyer will absorb the blast and protect you from it.  I received a lot of threats and manipulation, all I had to do was make my lawyer aware and it went away.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2020, 10:48:06 AM »

Does that make any sense to anyone?

The problem I see is that you don't know what you don't know.  Family law is not the real world, and there could very well be things in this agreement that put you at a serious disadvantage.

You're negotiating an agreement that will have a profound effect on your kids' lives moving forward.  Once signed, it will be very difficult to change.  You need professional guidance.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2020, 10:58:33 AM »


I'm not suggesting you get "overt" Legal help right now.

My impression is you do NOT have a lawyer retained..right?

Yes a year ago there was a lot of advice AND the world was different.

I think you were right to delay then, there was NOTHING ON THE TABLE.

There is a deal on the table now, that if you can lock up, will put you in a sweet position. 

It's hard to imagine that the deal gets better.  Is it possible...yes.

Is it probable.  Again I can't imagine it would.

I'm very concerned at your lack of legal counsel with all this going on.  I'm not advising to hire counsel and take action.  I'm advising to hire counsel and go over what's on the table..in detail..quickly.

Most likely outcome is a recommendation to sign quickly...but...get L review first.

Best,

FF
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2020, 11:13:58 AM »

Enabler,

Clarity:  Fair point on if you had taken the overwhelming advice you were getting a year ago.  I applaud you for resisting that advice which I considered unwise at the time based on the facts at hand.

Please hear me:  The facts at hand have changed dramatically as has my advice to you.

Get an L and sigh the deal quickly.  That's my advice.

Questions for you.

1.  What do you expect to gain through further delay?

2.  How do you expect further delay to affect your relationship with your children?

3.  How do you expect further delay to affect your relationship with your pwBPD?

Best,

FF
Logged

defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2020, 12:20:58 PM »

I want to clarify that I'm not proposing you do what I did.  My situation necessitated that kind of action, I don't think yours does.  I could not let her know that I was planning a divorce, as the situation had already escalated to physical abuse with threats against my safety.  I couldn't disclose the divorce to her and feel safe sleeping in that house anymore.  So for me, it had to be a surprise and a major blow up at the beginning. 

I am sharing my experience with you because I want you to see that lawyers and courts aren't that frightening.  What I found was the laws in place really make a ton of sense, and are there to protect both parties.  Courts aren't perfect but I learned that they really try to make it right.

My recommendation to you is to have a lawyer review the deal before you sign it.  My lawyer saw so many things in the drafts that I had no clue what they meant.  Also, my ex's lawyer was less competent so the first drafts we received had all kinds of holes in them that could create problems in the future.  My lawyer spotted these right away and knew what to add.  I wouldn't have seen them.  My lawyer and I worked as a team.  I knew my ex, and once I explained her behavior patterns, he knew what language to add to protect the kids and I.  He couldn't have gotten it right without my input, and I couldn't have gotten it right without his knowledge.

Think of it this way:  If you were signing a contract to enter into a life long major business deal, with all your money invested, would you have a lawyer review it?
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2020, 01:17:56 PM »

I understand not wanting to spend the money on hiring a solicitor, yet. Do you think you can transact the entire process without one?

If not, what keeps you from beginning the interview process to see if you can find someone with whom you feel comfortable, and also who is knowledgeable about high conflict divorces involving a personality disorder?

As time goes on and your wife spends down her savings, do you think she will continue to be as rational and generous in her offer?

Those of us who've been through this process know how things can go abruptly sideways and we're concerned that you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, needlessly.

On the other hand...I somewhat believe that she will accidentally get a divorce she doesn't actually want.~ Enabler

I'm wondering if there's some magical thinking on your part.

Perhaps you envision letting things progress like this: Your wife has her own place with kids reluctantly living there part time. She is beginning to get stressed about money after a number of months. The love nest she has envisioned isn't working out quite the way she'd hoped. There's less privacy for her relationship with the other man. And things are getting real for him. It's not the sweet honeymoon life that he'd been enjoying up until now. He's dealing with your kids, yet he's not living there on a permanent basis, because they don't want to screw up the financial picture before the divorce is finally done. She's getting more irritable and he's not sure that this is really what he wanted. It was all very nice when it was just the two of them, but now the surly looks from your daughters let him know that they blame him for splitting up the family. And she's starting to wonder how much he can contribute to running the household. Perhaps he still has financial commitments with his wife and he's starting to rethink getting involved in yet another relationship with a difficult woman. Things start getting strained between them. And maybe your wife begins to wonder why she got involved with him at all. And then she thinks there is still an open door with Enabler...and really life was pretty good with him...and he tolerated her outside affairs with other men...and it was financially stable because he kept everything together...so maybe she could go back...and that would eliminate a lot of the pressure she's now feeling...



Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2020, 02:22:52 PM »

I hate you a little bit Cat...
... and I think you can all guess why! Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  Although I have to say a more elaborate fairytale than I had concocted.

That said, in the interim, whilst maybe her and OM are trying to play happy families and she’s looking the other way, I’ll maybe push forward the financial deal since this would mean I wouldn’t need to even consider spousal, and split of capital would be considerably more in my favour..

I’ve taken critical advantage of opportunities I’ve been given this far!
Logged

Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2020, 03:32:28 PM »

 Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)  Well I had to keep digging. Otherwise why would such an intelligent, rational, logical guy be so resistant?
Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2020, 03:38:22 PM »

We can all dream...

I never dreamed of Covid, but I did hope for 50/50 parenting, funny how that one worked out.

A lawyer will likely tell me to give up hope... because hope isn’t rational.
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2020, 03:47:06 PM »


Perhaps a lawyer will clarify what's legal or not.

I'm concerned that I haven't heard an explanation for the resistance to get legal advice.

Is it purely about money?

Best,

FF
Logged

empath
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 848


« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2020, 04:39:02 PM »

Enabler, when my h moved out, I was primarily concerned to protect my d13 (at the time) and secondarily my housing. My h had been considering and looking at divorce more actively for about 3 years at that point, and he had a meeting with a L. In my case, h decided that a divorce using a L would be too expensive and didn't pursue it then. He just moved out and was continuing to pay the rent for our house; we didn't have any written agreements regarding either the finances or parenting time. I had 100% custody, and since nothing had changed legally, I could make all decisions regarding my daughter's care. In the years leading up to this point, I had consulted with a L and others who are in the dv field, so I was prepared in the event that h decided to go through with the divorce and I had documents compiled to protect my d and our financial interests. H didn't know about any of my discussions with the L or what I had done to prepare. Currently, I have more documentation and support for what I need. H complains about his financial state, now, and sometimes wants to move back in with me which recently became much less likely because I had to move.

Consulting with a L can take many forms. They can stay completely behind the scenes with advise and recommendations all the way up to more actively filing and pursuing court cases. For me, having the advise and perspective of the L was very valuable; I knew where I stood legally and was able to make decisions based on my own goals in the situation. I was very reluctant to be the one to push the way forward because I knew that it might get contentious if I did.

As most of the wise folks on the board have said, I would also recommend that you consult a L regarding your rights and responsibilities so that you can be adequately prepared. You don't have to let EnablerW know about it. Right now, you need to protect your time with your daughters and to make sure that something is in writing BEFORE EnablerW moves out with them. She is offering you 50% time - the fewer nuances in the agreement, the better.
Logged
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2020, 04:42:08 PM »

I'm starting to sense Enabler is dragging his feet and hoping the divorce magically goes away.  

I also sensing that maybe EnablerW doesn't really want a divorce and this is a form of control.  After all, why would she want to finalize it right now?  She has the best of both worlds.  She gets to maintain the marriage and lifestyle, and also have the OM on the side.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8817


« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2020, 06:45:01 PM »

I think people started telling me to finish this a year ago... where would I be if I finished it then?

Disney dad with a tea midweek vs 50/50 parenting
Out of my home and zero chance of retaining it vs in my home and a possibility of retaining it...

Fact check: You were stonewalling back then and hoping to preserve your marriage - you told us that - you preferred to stick it out over alternatives.The narrative was:

       she will accidentally get a divorce she doesn't actually want.~ Enabler

The advice you received was that your relationship was over, the children were victims of a toxic household, and to stop blocking your wife's efforts to move on (with guilt and passive resistance). The message to you was to accept the reality of the situation and to lay the groundwork to get 50% visitation. No one was saying "end it".

You said, because of your work situation and your relationship with your mother, 50%/50% was not possible for you.

It's a different time, the circumstances have changed, and you are still getting the same advice.

You are where you are because your wife is desperate to leave. She is in over her head in this thing... nonetheless she is pushing forward. She wants out.You have done a good job of convincing her that lawyers are unnecessary and she has a great deal of shame and fear about the affair.

The risk that you have today is the same risk as before; that she finally realizes that her affair is not fatal in family court and she can demand and/or manipulate and get a lot more than she demanding right now.

I underlined it because this is the Achilles heel of your life right now. A lawyer could convince her that she should "go for it" and file a motion that un-does whatever tentative "agreement" you have now and flip this thing on its ear. It often happens this way.

She has laid out a pretty good deal. I'd try to close it and get it filed with the court. Yes, she is advocating for bad boundaries and you are advocating for firm boundaries (as you should)... but don't let this end up in a standoff like your previous efforts to make a joint decision.

My suggestion to Enabler and to everyone participating here: Let's be careful not to go down the same path that most of this last years discussions have gone down. Members give advice, Enabler explains why it is not good advice, members restate their position louder. I'm certainly guilty of that.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Enabler, what help do you need right now?

What are your thoughts? This could help everyone posting to you.

1. Do you hope that if she can't get a custody agreement that she likes or if the kids act up too much, she will call off the move? Reality defeats fantasy as you often say.

2. Is your goal with the divorce to continue to be passively resistant and make the process as discouraging as possible for her? Is this in hopes that she will let it go? Is wearing her out your negotiating tactic?

3. Are you preferring to keep agreements informal rather than executing a formal agreement and filing them the court? What is the advantage you see with this?

4. A few months ago you argued with members that 50%/50% was not something you could do. The fatal flaws were your work schedule and the lack of anyone to help you. You said you couldn't work it out for your mom to help. Do you now believe you can handle a strict 50% schedule? By strict I mean without help from your wife.

5. A few months ago you argued with members that keeping the house was not financially viable option for you. Do you think you could keep it now? That would be great for the kids. What changed?

6. You have a divorce action filed and pending. At what point do you think having an attorney actively involved makes sense for you? What is the trigger point? Will you try to take this all the way without an attorney if you can?

7. If this custody agreement can't be made - are you fine to just see how it goes for a while?

8.  If you are called to stand before the court, will you go it on your own? Is it situation dependent?  For example, if your wife wants to file the custody agreement, will you be OK to let her attorney do it for the two of you?

9. If the courts end up making the custody agreement, what do you think your chances of getting 50%/50% is a contested situation?

10. You have an extremely strained relationship with your wife's partner. He has made overtures to heal the divide which you strongly objected too. Understandable given the affair. He will obviously be in your children's life. How do you envision your future relationship with him? What do you want your children to see?

I think knowing where you are coming from will help everyone contribute.
Logged

 
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2020, 03:15:12 PM »


A good list of questions, answers that will certainly help me understand.


I've asked some questions which I don't believe have been answered, they are similar to Skip's.  The nuance may or may not be significant...so I'll restate (re-ask).

I don't understand the apparent resistance to have a lawyer retained and ready "at a moments notice" to give Enabler advice, review agreements or even move forward with filing things in the courts.

Broadly speaking Enabler and I are "thinkers" and I believe we often track together in our thinking/analysis.  (completely separate matter if that thinking is helpful/accurate/right..whatever... Being cool (click to insert in post)

I say that to hopefully get Enabler's attention when I say that I can't for the life of me figure out the resistance to doing this.
 
Enabler..have you ever retained a lawyer?   (that may be it, sadly I've had to do it quit often..so it's just a thing I do now without much analysis.  I'm convinced they've helped more than they've hurt.)


2nd question/issue:  Yes it is relevant when evaluating the advice from others to ask "If I had taken your advice in the past, where would I be now?"

Please hear that my advice has changed because the facts on the ground have changed DRAMATICALLY (IMO). 

That being said, in the past (as Skip pointed out) there was usually a thoughtful narrative of why you were not going to go down the advised path and you stuck with that narrative (which I commend) against overwhelming advice to do something else.

Now...I'm seeing/hearing that you don't want to "close the deal" (sign it...finish it...hurry to the finish line) whatever you want to call it, and I can't figure out what your thoughtful narrative is.

I don't want to finish the 50/50 deal on the table because...  (I couldn't fill in your reasoning, let alone express if I agreed or disagreed).

A long winded way of saying that I don't understand and if it was me, most likely I would be acting this way because it sucked/hurt/shouldn't be/I thought it was wrong.   

Pain has a way of clouding decision making (at least for me), especially when there is not an obvious deadline.

We simply don't know when she will "flip" and remove the deal.  Once we know the answer, it will be too late.

Enabler...I'm so sorry this is happening to your family.  It's a great injustice.

My appeal to you is that your children will be VASTLY better off with you in a 50 percent parenting position.  VASTLY...

Isn't that enough of a reason for you to move forward?

Best,

FF
Logged

Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!